Rev. Jesse Jackson targets Apple, Google, HP, others in tech racial diversity campaign

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  • Reply 141 of 271
    gilly33gilly33 Posts: 442member
    domo1944 wrote: »
    Life is about choices both for the individual and the individual's family. One of the most irresponsible choices that many African-Americans make is to have children when they can not reasonably support those children. Over 70% of African-American children are members of single parent families, and the single parent is usually the Mom, who then struggles to make ends meet. Although there are exceptions, the odds of becoming well-educated and successful are against children from single-parent families. Why is it the responsibility of wealthy Americans and corporations to offset the poor choices made by individuals?

    For more than half a century, the Democratic party has initiated and supported policies and programs of higher taxes and more entitlements and here we are fifty years later, after spending trillions of dollars on these programs, with the very same problems. One would think that a party that espoused the concept that it was "time for a change" would finally put into practice what they preach.
    A question I want to ask you is why is it that in the African American community is there more single-parent homes. Is it as simple as people making poor choices? Including poor choices I wonder if other historical and social reasons have contributed to that condition where most of the men are not there. This is a group of individuals that were prevented from socioeconomic equality not to long ago in this country. Who until recent years were reminded as men that they were ignorant, couldn't use machinery, and utterly unintelligent. Who except for the work of some risk taking blacks and whites didn't have the same educational opportunities as their white male counterparts. We may like to think that this happened centuries ago but as history goes it was not too long ago in this country.
    So while I agree with you that folk do make poor choices. And I definitely agree that the hard working 'wealthy' should not be taxed any more to pay for the lazy no matter their race. There are still definite inequalities for all minorities and women that need to be constantly address in our nation. We as a people are still for the most part 'good ole boys' and wherever that mentally remains there is work to be done. Finally, I personally feel that Apple probably does hire the best of the best. Question is there enough equality down the chain to ensure that everyone gets a fair chance to get there?
  • Reply 142 of 271
    adrayvenadrayven Posts: 460member
    hiring for sake of color or gender is a hard sell IMO.. that to me is just as racist.. High level execs don't come and go like other positions.. it's often a 10 year to a life time role.. What, they going to fire some people just for the sake of getting in someone who's darker skinned?? Many are not there because of anything but raw talent.. Jonny Ive is a clear example. So now, talent means nothing, color trumps all.

    I know, fire Jonny Ive! YEAH! His skin isn't dark enough!

    To me, this just seemed like an easy target to get some publicity. Easy doesn't mean it's right or good.
  • Reply 143 of 271
    Everybody...please...stop buying into BS pretenses. Jesse Jackson apparently needs money and is shaking these companies down.

    "Diversity" and fighting "racism" or any other injustice or inequity is the window dressing that hustlers like Jackson put on this self-enriching crap to make it seem noble and to get others to accept or even support it.
  • Reply 144 of 271
    ALL

    Well first off, Rev Jackson did some great things in the 1960s Civil Rights movement and he should be commended for that- thank you Rev. The issue of a lack of African Americans in the high tech industry hits a valid point, however, not one that I think Rev Jackson is portending. High tech engineering and programming jobs are predicated on a high level sets of self-motiivation skills, inclination to these fields and education (both independent and classroom). Today we call many of these type of persons - nerds (no insult intended) and these are a minority of people across all ethic and racial classes. The fact that the high tech industry hires so many non-white Americans bears out the fact that the industry is not self-intentioned discrimination. Yet the high tech field itself by its very nature is discriminatory, as are the broader sciences in terms of education and individual motivation for these fields, a lot of self-sacrifice and social activities often are sacrificed in favor of an individual devoting oneself to this field of endeavor which is an equal opportunity career field.

    Personally, I think that education is the key gateway by which all American youth can be trained or re-trained for the high tech industry. A new emphasis within all our schools need to instruct on the general subjects of science, math, engineering, computer programming, etc - and this is not merely through traditional classroom-to-student forums. Parents and teachers are the two prime motivating factors in getting young people to re-focus their energies away from detracting activities to focus more of their time on science and engineering. Being smart must be viewed as being the new cool. This goes for all US youth who have abandoned the rigors of education achievement to merely 'getting by'. I wish that America could produce all its own needed technical and scientific talent at home, at one time we were self-sufficient in terms of education, science and engineering, I am not sure what occurred to change this, but it is not irreversible either.

    It is time for new, bold thinking and not a time to blame others or to reinforce failure with failed policies. I went to school for an 8 hour day, came home and played out for a few hours, then after diner the parents made sure that I was doing 3 hours of homework and math/spelling drills.
  • Reply 145 of 271
    retrogustoretrogusto Posts: 1,121member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

     

     

    Because it takes a while to work through. It's beginning to happen though, but remember CEOs are in their 50's, 


     

    Good point. The demographics I've been seeing in the past 10 years might not be the same ones that people were seeing 25 years ago when most of today's CEOs were getting started.

  • Reply 146 of 271
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by k2director View Post

     

    LET'S BE FRANK, JESSE.

     

    The reason there aren't many blacks in tech is because black families and black kids don't embrace an education and path that naturally leads to the tech industry. You know, things like math, science, business, etc. 

     

    Blacks, as a general group, seem to have no problem excelling in sports and music without any hand-outs or crying about racial imbalance. Why? Because those areas are apparently important to much of the black community, and that's where their energy goes. 

     

    If you want the same results in tech, then the black community should look inward, and start changing its own priorities at the family level. That will lead to more blacks in tech, and eventually the ones that rise highest as managers will make it into boardrooms. That's the right way towards progress for blacks. It's called "earning it", and it leads to strong skills, and both self-respect and respect from peers. 

     

    The wrong way is to avoid uncomfortable dialogs with your own community, Jesse, and then whine about "discrimination" and demand that companies give less qualified people free hand-outs based on race. That only makes black people weaker by letting them skip a more rigorous path towards advancement, and gives peers a very good reason to see their social-engineered black colleagues as lightweights. Which in turn creates more of a barrier between races, instead of breaking barriers down. 

     

    In other words: SHUT UP AND EARN IT, JESSE. 


    As soon as you say 'blacks in general', you are stereotyping.   stereotyping is the basis of racist arguments.

     

    Your number start to fail when you stop grouping by skin color, and start grouping by family unit net assets.  When those are equal, then black families perform as well (or white family's as poorly) as their counterpart.  Whites in America... got free land and free labor for over 400 years, and then spent another 100 years legislating Jim Crowe laws pay off the middle class whites (and Irish... who were 'black' in their own country) to squeeze out economic and political advantage from non-whites.   You think White America isn't at fault and say 'Not our fault... it's your fault you can't get your kids into college...') 

     

    but the real question is, did you earn it?  or was it taken from someone else, laundered through years of 'that's the way it was' arguments, and your grubstake was given to you help you continue your families acceleration.   You may think you're succeeding, but if you were given a 400 year head start based on your families skin color, and their tacit agreement to play in the game of white domination, is that a 'just' competition?

     

    The issue you have is you don't realize that to 'pull oneself up by your bootstraps' one must first have boots. America spent 5 centuries exploiting blacks to keep them a cheap labor force and the same amount of time robbing indigenous peoples of their lands [because white elites believe in manifest destiny...  we take what we want], withholding their ability to build up familial wealth assets.   and those that have are still fighting a current of bias because of those past privileges haven't accumulated.  [why is it that more white people smoke pot than black people, yet, blacks get arrested, then convictd, and then sentenced to jail more than whites? one reason:   DWB - Driving While Black] [why is it that more white people collect welfare than blacks and commit more welfare fraud, but every political ad about welfare queens has a black face?]

     

    you may never had owned a slave, or never killed an indian, but the land you live on, and the industrial infrastructure that your job is built upon was one of white domination through some sort of divine right to exploit peoples of color.   You may consider yourself not racist, but if your not actively trying to right the wrong, you're living off of ill-gotten gains like a racist.

     

    Jesse's seeking to right 500 years of wrongs.   you may not like his message, or his style, or his past, but to say it's 'their fault they are not getting ahead' is as racist as saying, 'If they were human, I'd care, but they aren't human'

  • Reply 147 of 271
    macbook promacbook pro Posts: 1,605member
    malax wrote: »
    First, I doubt that "most good programmers" start at age 12.  And kids who are programming at age 12 are almost certainly on the very high end of the intellectual bell curve (who were also lucky enough to have the parental resources to explore their interests).  Throwing a microcontroller kit to your average 12 year old won't get you very far.

    In Silicon Valley it is not unusual for children to learn programming. My sons (10 and 13) are both pretty fluent with HTML & CSS.
  • Reply 148 of 271
    gilly33gilly33 Posts: 442member
    timt999 wrote: »
    There's definitely an issue regarding racial diversity in the tech industry, but it's not the one Jesse Jackson thinks. I work at a dot com and you see plenty of folks of color -- especially those of Asian and Indian background -- the new head of Microsoft was born in India.

    But there are very few blacks in the tech world. And the reason has more to do with the career choices that black kids make than anything tech companies can do. Math, technology and engineering are areas where discrimination doesn't need to hold a kid back. If you get the right answers on the Math SAT, you will get recognized by colleges.

    But kids at urban schools tend to not want to make math and science a focus -- maybe it's not considered cool. Asian American kids take the opposite approach.

    Good point. Listen this is an issue with many sides and worth exploring. All our kids deserve a fair shot at what they want to do.
  • Reply 149 of 271

    Isn't pushing for "racial diversity" racist in itself? Jackson is basically saying that he wants to see more minorities in leadership roles, but who cares about someone's race? Shouldn't the hire be based on experience and qualifications? You want the best person for the job, not the best black person, or asian person, or whatever is the flavor of the month.

  • Reply 150 of 271
    malaxmalax Posts: 1,598member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Zoolook View Post

     

     

    Rubbish - I started programming at 9 years old, and that was 32 years ago. The earlier the better. Oh, and we were piss poor, but I agreed with my dad to forsake toys and sweets for a year, just to have a computer (a 16k Atari 400).


    Oh you got me with data.  Since you started at 9 that clearly means the statement that "most good programmers start at 12" is 100% true.  Or maybe 100% false since you were only 9.  But wait, are you a "good programmer?"

     

    My point was that plenty of "good programmers" come to the game late.  And that not every 12 year old can be turned into a good programmer.

  • Reply 151 of 271
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TimT999 View Post



    There's definitely an issue regarding racial diversity in the tech industry, but it's not the one Jesse Jackson thinks. I work at a dot com and you see plenty of folks of color -- especially those of Asian and Indian background -- the new head of Microsoft was born in India.



    But there are very few blacks in the tech world. And the reason has more to do with the career choices that black kids make than anything tech companies can do. Math, technology and engineering are areas where discrimination doesn't need to hold a kid back. If you get the right answers on the Math SAT, you will get recognized by colleges.



    But kids at urban schools tend to not want to make math and science a focus -- maybe it's not considered cool. Asian American kids take the opposite approach.

     

    Totally agree with the above assessment. Don't call out silicon valley's hiring practices because most black youth choose to go into sports or other non-tech fields. Everyone in this world has a choice, whether you think so or not. Even inner city youth have a choice. Choices aren't always easy, and accomplishing success in your life requires making difficult choices. Sometimes people prefer to make the easy choice and say that they didn't have a choice. That's not silicon valley's problem.

  • Reply 152 of 271
    jungmark wrote: »
    I'm sorry but the best people for the job can't be all of one race. Again, it's the opportunity that is missing.

    Considering your normally wise posts, I'm surprised by your incredibly stupid post. So an NFL team can't be all-black?
  • Reply 153 of 271
    pfisherpfisher Posts: 758member

    Jesse needs to work at helping people when they are young who don't have access to opportunity.

     

    You can't necessarily go and ask companies to hire people with diversity in mind, if you don't have enough of a diverse population qualified.

     

    The disadvantaged are neglected and you need to start with them. Especially poor and without access to resources to get ahead.

  • Reply 154 of 271
    malaxmalax Posts: 1,598member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post



    Are you sure about that? The only hurdles I face with education today are with learning new languages. This includes both human and programming languages. I spend a couple hours every day trying to learn to program. I get the logic of programming and can do C reasonably well but the complex syntax of Objective C and iOS/Mac APIs are a major stumbling block for me. I've come to the conclusion that like any language the older you are the harder programming becomes if you have no early foundation. I watch YouTube videos almost daily that has some preteen who's voice hasn't yet cracked explaining with ease how to code something that has me completely stumped. There appears to be neurobiological origins of language and by around 5-8yo something occurs in the Wernicke's area of the brain that starts to make the absorption of a language more difficult.

    Good points.  I don't know to what extent learning German is like learning Python.  They seem very different to me, but maybe there are similarities.  On the other hand, I think the pre-teens who are cranking out YouTube videos on complex topic (or any topics) are (for the most part) exceptional.

  • Reply 155 of 271
    malaxmalax Posts: 1,598member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post



    Considering your normally wise posts, I'm surprised by your incredibly stupid post. So an NFL team can't be all-black?

    Of course not.  They have to have a kicker.

     

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

  • Reply 156 of 271
    jungmark wrote: »
    1 and 2 person hiring is different. I'm not arguing for quotas but if you're white and you hire three white people over the other qualified candidates who happen to be a minority, all else being equal, because you feel more comfortable, then that's racist.

    A company might decide that three white guys will get on better together, all other things being equal. I imagine lots of people would call that racist. Ditto three black guys. Where do you draw the line?
  • Reply 157 of 271
    dickprinterdickprinter Posts: 1,060member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

     

     

    Wait… there’s gay TV? Other than The Naked Channel?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_(TV_channel)

  • Reply 158 of 271
    macbook promacbook pro Posts: 1,605member
    The source of the problem is the quite low population of persons of certain ancestries in Silicon Valley which is the predominant source of talent in technology.

    San Francisco Bay Area (nine county region) (7.15 million)
    52.5% White including white Hispanic
    23.5% Hispanic or Latino of any race
    23.3% Asian
    6.7% non-Hispanic African American
    0.7% Native American
    0.6% Pacific Islander
    10.8% from other races
    5.4% from two or more races



    1, http://www.bayareacensus.ca.gov/bayarea.htm. Bay Area Census. Retrieved 19 March 2014.
  • Reply 159 of 271
    solipsismx wrote: »
    malax wrote: »
    First, I doubt that "most good programmers" start at age 12.  And kids who are programming at age 12 are almost certainly on the very high end of the intellectual bell curve (who were also lucky enough to have the parental resources to explore their interests).  Throwing a microcontroller kit to your average 12 year old won't get you very far.

    Are you sure about that? The only hurdles I face with education today are with learning new languages. This includes both human and programming languages. I spend a couple hours every day trying to learn to program. I get the logic of programming and can do C reasonably well but the complex syntax of Objective C and iOS/Mac APIs are a major stumbling block for me. I've come to the conclusion that like any language the older you are the harder programming becomes if you have no early foundation. I watch YouTube videos almost daily that has some preteen who's voice hasn't yet cracked explaining with ease how to code something that has me completely stumped. There appears to be neurobiological origins of language and by around 5-8yo something occurs in the Wernicke's area of the brain that starts to make the absorption of a language more difficult.

    Maybe your difficulty is in learning object-oriented languages vs procedural languages.

    I too, have difficulty with Objective-C

    My first exposure to programming was at the age of 18 (1957) -- a self-study course -- Machine Language on the IBM 305 RAMAC. My first formal programming class was in 1958 SOAP Symbolic Optimal Assembly Program on the IBM 650 Drum Machine.

    Over the years I took classes in most programming languages offered by IBM, Burroughs, GE-Honeywell, RCA, NCR, etc. I taught many programming classes when I worked for IBM.

    Everything, for me, was a logical extension of what I already knew. The last language I felt really comfortable with was UCSD Pascal on various microcomputers in the late 1980s -- I was in my late 40s.

    After an 8-year hiatus from computers until 1997, I taught myself web programming using JavaScript, Perl, then ColdFusion. All with little problems.

    Then came the iPhone and iOS OSX Objective-C. I can normally get things to work -- looking at other peoples' code and tutorial courses ...

    But I am not comfortable with the language or the tools. I have difficulty understanding my own code and have a suspicious feeling that there is a better way!
  • Reply 160 of 271
    As many have pointed out, the problem is a societal one %u2013 and Corporations are a significant part of society! So they deserve attention. I don't see the grounds for any criticism of Jackson's remarks based on that point.
    Also, since the corporate level is where a great deal of the actually money and professional influence gravitates to %u2013 it seems like an important level (among many others) to target for attention.

    And to all the people spouting about candidates who can do the "best job" vs. "flavor" or skin color... Take a step back and consider how we even define "best job". I would argue if a company at the senior level, doesn't include the perspective that comes with cultural diversity in their definition of "doing their best job" then they're definition is too shallow and sucks. And it might partially (only partially) explain how we've arrived at a place in history where so many non-white cultures have ended up on the losing end of these companies' success and work practices.
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