Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My point was that plenty of "good programmers" come to the game late. And that not every 12 year old can be turned into a good programmer.
I think that the key is that most good programmers start very young - but not because somebody "turned them into a programmer", but because they were interested at that age without somebody else telling them to be.
So if you want a bunch of black programmers, provide programming instruction to everybody at age 12 and watch to see who keeps going on their own independently.
And the Rainbow Coalition. Have you taken a look at their Board of Directors and First Tier Executives? How many white faces? ZERO.
I live in the DC area and I have seen this buffoon in action. He is a racial bigot that no one ever challenges. He stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Al Sharpton when Sharton called for Harlem residents to burn down a business run by 'Kikes' - his term not mine.
He is a self promoter of the worst kind. Campaigns of this nature are intended to accomplish only two things: 1 - raise his profile; 2 - thereby generate more money from extorted companies. Recall his similar efforts in Detroit.
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Jackson.
Who'd be your choice?
I just don't agree with any hiring based on racial or other such qualifications.
I think that the key is that most good programmers start very young - but not because somebody "turned them into a programmer", but because they were interested at that age without somebody else telling them to be.
So if you want a bunch of black programmers, provide programming instruction to everybody at age 12 and watch to see who keeps going on their own independently.
I don't understand why schools don't teach programming beginning in junior high school if not earlier. Many of the skills of programming are highly transferable especially to mathematics.
"Technology is supposed to be about inclusion..."?? No it's not! It's about simplifying our lives and solving problems. Give me a break. He just says stuff because he thinks it make sense.
Hire the best and brightest, not based on skin color. I'm not a black man, but if I was, I'd be insulted by the notion that I was being hired just because I had to be, not based on my merit.
I don't understand why schools don't teach programming beginning in junior high school if not earlier. Many of the skills of programming are highly transferable especially to mathematics.
US public schools are notoriously weak on the fundamentals, unlike other countries where rote learning is pounded into them repeatedly and engineering, math, science and physics are considered gateways to future success. In grade schools and high schools in the US more emphasis on personal expression seems to be normal. There are some good aspects to both approaches. There should be much more attention paid to fundamentals in the US...we've got the confidence building and self-expression angle more than covered.
I don't understand why schools don't teach programming beginning in junior high school if not earlier. Many of the skills of programming are highly transferable especially to mathematics.
I learned Basic, then Apple Pascal in high school. I was terrible at both, but I'm glad I had the exposure to those concepts.
US public schools are notoriously weak on the fundamentals, unlike other countries where rote learning is pounded into them repeatedly and engineering, math, science and physics are considered gateways to future success. In grade schools and high schools in the US more emphasis on personal expression seems to be normal. There are some good aspects to both approaches. There should be much more attention paid to fundamentals in the US...we've got the confidence building and self-expression angle more than covered.
But the bottom line is students need to be at school for any school-based solution to function.
Mr. Jackson should give more attention to H.S. graduation and truancy rates, which are horrific.
Bingo, this exactly. Companies (and individuals) should focus on enablement - and by the way, African Americans are not the only group under-represented at the top.
A couple of posts referred to Obama (indirectly) - the irony being is that he had to be 10x better (eductationally) than the white guy he was running against, and 100x better than his predecessor, to even get a chance. The barrier to entry should not be 10x higher, but it also shouldn't be lower either. Get the the schools, get to the poorer neighborhoods, and help there.
Oh, and while this is semi-political, Jackson's own party should probably stop crapping all over Charter Schools (which are the best thing to have ever happened to poorer African American kids) and stop yakking on about teacher tenure (which is probably the biggest barrier to educational reform). Ban me now...
Politics is different. You have to lie better than your opponent to win.
My point was that plenty of "good programmers" come to the game late. And that not every 12 year old can be turned into a good programmer.
If that was your point, why didn't you make it more clearly?
I do think the basic skills needed for programming are probably either there or not there by the time someone is 12, or in their early teens. If at that point they struggle with math, logical comprehension or even basic concentration, that's going to become a hindrance before too long.
No but if you have 3 white people and 3 black people with similar experience and hire the 3 whites, that is racist.
I don't agree with these comments at all. Because of past inequalities within a given society and the time it takes for these generational changes to occur it's quite possible that the best — as in most talented or most qualified individuals — can be of one race (nationality, gender, etc.) even if the hiring party has absolutely no bias, which can be tested with a nameless resume.
Furthermore, similar experiences or qualifications is not the same as determining the best candidate for a position. If you decide not to choose Race_A because you feel you have too many Race_A's but instead choose Race_B even though Race_B was not the best choice for the position, just a similar choice, then you're being racist because your determination is racial.
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Johnson.
Who'd be your choice?
I just don't agree with any hiring based on racial or other such qualifications.
I generally agree with that ... Yet, we have disadvantaged people/locals in this world and their situation is growing worse in spite of the governments/politicians efforts.
Apple is a very visible, very profitable company with a good corporate conscience. What if Apple decided that it is to Apple's and the larger world community's benefit to address some of these issues.
As others have posted, the black community in the US is disproportionally disadvantaged -- jobs, arrests, family breakdown, education, opportunity ...
What If Apple decided implement a program to disrupt this specific problem.
I don't think throwing money at the problem will solve it -- nor just talking the talk. To be effective, I think that the person that can do thisl has to be black and successful -- and be able to sell a solution.
Maybe hiring is the wrong approach -- say, employing the services and giving him a bully pulpit!
Maybe your difficulty is in learning object-oriented languages vs procedural languages.
I too, have difficulty with Objective-C
My first exposure to programming was at the age of 18 (1957) -- a self-study course -- Machine Language on the IBM 305 RAMAC. My first formal programming class was in 1958 SOAP Symbolic Optimal Assembly Program on the IBM 650 Drum Machine.
Over the years I took classes in most programming languages offered by IBM, Burroughs, GE-Honeywell, RCA, NCR, etc. I taught many programming classes when I worked for IBM.
Everything, for me, was a logical extension of what I already knew. The last language I felt really comfortable with was UCSD Pascal on various microcomputers in the late 1980s -- I was in my late 40s.
After an 8-year hiatus from computers until 1997, I taught myself web programming using JavaScript, Perl, then ColdFusion. All with little problems.
Then came the iPhone and iOS OSX Objective-C. I can normally get things to work -- looking at other peoples' code and tutorial courses ...
But I am not comfortable with the language or the tools. I have difficulty understanding my own code and have a suspicious feeling that there is a better way!
I understand MVC. I think it's the complexity of the syntax that fools me up. More often than not my coding has all the right elements but is in the wrong order or using some characters improperly. To a "real" programmer is equivalent to the broken English we've all seen in spam emails. It's clearly wrong but you know what they're trying to do. Unfortunately, compilers are syntax Nazis.
I don't agree with these comments at all. Because of past inequalities within a given society even and time for generational changes to occur it's quite possible that the best — as in most talented or most qualified individuals — can be of one race (nationality, gender, etc.) even if the hiring party has absolutely has no bias, which can be tested with a nameless resume.
Furthermore, similar experiences or qualifications is not the same as determining the best candidate for a position. If you decide not to choose Race_A because you feel have to many Race_A's but instead choose Race_B even though Race_B was not the best choice for the position then you're being racist because you determination is racial.
In an ideal world, hiring would be objective. We dont live in an ideal world. Everyone has bias. Hiring is subjective. Now I don't believe in quotas and I feel Affirmative Action is very flawed, however I think there could be improvement in opportunities given.
If that was your point, why didn't you make it more clearly?
I do think the basic skills needed for programming are probably either there or not there by the time someone is 12, or in their early teens. If at that point they struggle with math, logical comprehension or even basic concentration, that's going to become a hindrance before too long.
Heh. Why not indeed. I apologize for being the one person here who writes things that can be misintrepreted, and I'll strive to do better.
I work in an IT department, and I wonder what the distribution of "what age did you start programming?" would be. I expect the real superstars would tend to answer "early teens" but I'm sure there are exceptions. Perhaps I was just reacting to what the definition of "good programmer" might be. I expect original poster was using a standard such as good enough to get hired at Apple or Google whereas I was thinking more like "good enough to do well in a typical IT department" (clearly a much lower standard.
In an ideal world, hiring would be objective. We dont live in an ideal world. Everyone has bias. Hiring is subjective. Now I don't believe in quotas and I feel Affirmative Action is very flawed, however I think there could be improvement in opportunities given.
Is trading one bias for a different bias a good solution?
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Jackson.
Who'd be your choice?
With no sarcasm or offense intended, who is Ervin Jackson?
In an ideal world, hiring would be objective. We dont live in an ideal world. Everyone has bias. Hiring is subjective. Now I don't believe in quotas and I feel Affirmative Action is very flawed, however I think there could be improvement in opportunities given.
Is trading one bias for a different bias a good solution?
In an ideal world, hiring would be objective. We dont live in an ideal world. Everyone has bias. Hiring is subjective. Now I don't believe in quotas and I feel Affirmative Action is very flawed, however I think there could be improvement in opportunities given.
Even in an ideal world, hiring would be subjective. If you had to select 5 people to form a basketball team, whom would you choose? There's no objective right answer, and that's in a setting where we have an incredible amount of objective data. And the first choice you made would influence your second choice and your third, etc.
Comments
Maybe approach this from another angle ...
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Johnson.
Who'd be your choice?
My point was that plenty of "good programmers" come to the game late. And that not every 12 year old can be turned into a good programmer.
I think that the key is that most good programmers start very young - but not because somebody "turned them into a programmer", but because they were interested at that age without somebody else telling them to be.
So if you want a bunch of black programmers, provide programming instruction to everybody at age 12 and watch to see who keeps going on their own independently.
I live in the DC area and I have seen this buffoon in action. He is a racial bigot that no one ever challenges. He stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Al Sharpton when Sharton called for Harlem residents to burn down a business run by 'Kikes' - his term not mine.
He is a self promoter of the worst kind. Campaigns of this nature are intended to accomplish only two things: 1 - raise his profile; 2 - thereby generate more money from extorted companies. Recall his similar efforts in Detroit.
OK!
Maybe approach this from another angle ...
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Jackson.
Who'd be your choice?
I just don't agree with any hiring based on racial or other such qualifications.
I don't understand why schools don't teach programming beginning in junior high school if not earlier. Many of the skills of programming are highly transferable especially to mathematics.
Hire the best and brightest, not based on skin color. I'm not a black man, but if I was, I'd be insulted by the notion that I was being hired just because I had to be, not based on my merit.
I don't understand why schools don't teach programming beginning in junior high school if not earlier. Many of the skills of programming are highly transferable especially to mathematics.
US public schools are notoriously weak on the fundamentals, unlike other countries where rote learning is pounded into them repeatedly and engineering, math, science and physics are considered gateways to future success. In grade schools and high schools in the US more emphasis on personal expression seems to be normal. There are some good aspects to both approaches. There should be much more attention paid to fundamentals in the US...we've got the confidence building and self-expression angle more than covered.
I don't understand why schools don't teach programming beginning in junior high school if not earlier. Many of the skills of programming are highly transferable especially to mathematics.
I learned Basic, then Apple Pascal in high school. I was terrible at both, but I'm glad I had the exposure to those concepts.
US public schools are notoriously weak on the fundamentals, unlike other countries where rote learning is pounded into them repeatedly and engineering, math, science and physics are considered gateways to future success. In grade schools and high schools in the US more emphasis on personal expression seems to be normal. There are some good aspects to both approaches. There should be much more attention paid to fundamentals in the US...we've got the confidence building and self-expression angle more than covered.
But the bottom line is students need to be at school for any school-based solution to function.
Mr. Jackson should give more attention to H.S. graduation and truancy rates, which are horrific.
Politics is different. You have to lie better than your opponent to win.
Damn, that was my response too.
My point was that plenty of "good programmers" come to the game late. And that not every 12 year old can be turned into a good programmer.
If that was your point, why didn't you make it more clearly?
I do think the basic skills needed for programming are probably either there or not there by the time someone is 12, or in their early teens. If at that point they struggle with math, logical comprehension or even basic concentration, that's going to become a hindrance before too long.
I don't agree with these comments at all. Because of past inequalities within a given society and the time it takes for these generational changes to occur it's quite possible that the best — as in most talented or most qualified individuals — can be of one race (nationality, gender, etc.) even if the hiring party has absolutely no bias, which can be tested with a nameless resume.
Furthermore, similar experiences or qualifications is not the same as determining the best candidate for a position. If you decide not to choose Race_A because you feel you have too many Race_A's but instead choose Race_B even though Race_B was not the best choice for the position, just a similar choice, then you're being racist because your determination is racial.
I generally agree with that ... Yet, we have disadvantaged people/locals in this world and their situation is growing worse in spite of the governments/politicians efforts.
Apple is a very visible, very profitable company with a good corporate conscience. What if Apple decided that it is to Apple's and the larger world community's benefit to address some of these issues.
As others have posted, the black community in the US is disproportionally disadvantaged -- jobs, arrests, family breakdown, education, opportunity ...
What If Apple decided implement a program to disrupt this specific problem.
I don't think throwing money at the problem will solve it -- nor just talking the talk. To be effective, I think that the person that can do thisl has to be black and successful -- and be able to sell a solution.
Maybe hiring is the wrong approach -- say, employing the services and giving him a bully pulpit!
I understand MVC. I think it's the complexity of the syntax that fools me up. More often than not my coding has all the right elements but is in the wrong order or using some characters improperly. To a "real" programmer is equivalent to the broken English we've all seen in spam emails. It's clearly wrong but you know what they're trying to do. Unfortunately, compilers are syntax Nazis.
In an ideal world, hiring would be objective. We dont live in an ideal world. Everyone has bias. Hiring is subjective. Now I don't believe in quotas and I feel Affirmative Action is very flawed, however I think there could be improvement in opportunities given.
If that was your point, why didn't you make it more clearly?
I do think the basic skills needed for programming are probably either there or not there by the time someone is 12, or in their early teens. If at that point they struggle with math, logical comprehension or even basic concentration, that's going to become a hindrance before too long.
Heh. Why not indeed. I apologize for being the one person here who writes things that can be misintrepreted, and I'll strive to do better.
I work in an IT department, and I wonder what the distribution of "what age did you start programming?" would be. I expect the real superstars would tend to answer "early teens" but I'm sure there are exceptions. Perhaps I was just reacting to what the definition of "good programmer" might be. I expect original poster was using a standard such as good enough to get hired at Apple or Google whereas I was thinking more like "good enough to do well in a typical IT department" (clearly a much lower standard.
Is trading one bias for a different bias a good solution?
OK!
Maybe approach this from another angle ...
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Jackson.
Who'd be your choice?
With no sarcasm or offense intended, who is Ervin Jackson?
What are the choices in changing the status quo?
In an ideal world, hiring would be objective. We dont live in an ideal world. Everyone has bias. Hiring is subjective. Now I don't believe in quotas and I feel Affirmative Action is very flawed, however I think there could be improvement in opportunities given.
Even in an ideal world, hiring would be subjective. If you had to select 5 people to form a basketball team, whom would you choose? There's no objective right answer, and that's in a setting where we have an incredible amount of objective data. And the first choice you made would influence your second choice and your third, etc.