Realistically, I'm not looking for a G5, as whatever new processor that is coming out for Apple seems to be a bit off (or is it?!) - What I want is for Apple to just BE IN THERE, so that we don't have to think of ways of justifying Apple, they can do it themselves. The holy grail I think would be for people to somehow just get it right away when reading about what the Mac has to offer, or the ten seconds they think about it in the store before they go and instead buy a Dell originally, they get a Mac. I just want Apple to continue with what they SHOULD be doing, making cool stuff, that runs cool, does cool things, and makes others jealous, because it is really happening on the Mac. I think Apple has done a lot of good this year, their software is excellent, and will continue to get better. Now lets see some hardware innovation that makes the race more fair.
I don't see this 'race' by the way as something like, "Damn they're at 2.6ghz, we gotta do 3," it is more complicated than that. Apple is one who can change perceptions, and we know that ghz isn't all there is. But whatever it is, Apple needs more of it, and at a faster pace. See this opinion as one who has invested a lot of time and money into Apple, an encouragement, not a pure complaint.
Oopsie! Now guys, do what the Administrator is telling you to!
See, that's why it's great from a land so small noone gives a **** about! Slovenia is unlikely to be blamed for any mess, whereas the US is a great target to blame for everything...</strong><hr></blockquote>
ooh, I wanted to go to Slovenia last year so badly. There was a conference in Ljubljana and if work had paid for it I would've used it for a jumping off point to go to Italy and Croatia, too. Alas, didn't happen. But i hear it's really beuatiful!
<strong>What is a "stopgap motherboard"??</strong><hr></blockquote>
A stop-gap motherboard is just one where there hasn't been a full implementation of features that would have otherwise been included.
Basically it means Apple has left things off because the time to market of getting a working board out the door was too long. Apple has been very focused on time to market in their recent developments too.
What they do in this case where the time to market is too large if they are really desperate, and Apple would be with respect to DDR right now, is release a "stop-gap" measure. It's just something that is only there for a very short time (usually only until next revision) until they perfect what they were working on.
I can guarantee this revision we will see DDR RAM being used. It looks terrible for Apple to still be using 133MHz SDRAM in their pro systems no matter how good their bus efficiency is and they know that. People do notice when the PC world is starting to talk DDR 400 boards and Apple is still selling 100MHz & 133 MHz SDRAM boards.
It really is now a question of do they have the "complete" board they want to use ready or not? They have had problems with their boards so we just have to wait and see.
Edit: Slovenia is a lovely country I have two friends that live over there. Then again I enjoy visiting just about every country with the exception of the US and Australia.
Not conduct very becoming of a board admin, I must say.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It wont matter much when Apple is a 5$ stock. It?s make or break for Apple. Revenues are dropping, which means market share is dropping further, which means ? death. I hope SJ can pull a rabbit or two this MW. If not, the market would REALLY understand why top execs sold so many shares. Apple is in trouble. I really hope they can pull through. They need to drop MOT. Maybe go with Nvidia. Maybe IBM. But lose MOT.
<strong>It wont matter much when Apple is a 5$ stock. It?s make or break for Apple. Revenues are dropping, which means market share is dropping further, which means ? death. I hope SJ can pull a rabbit or two this MW. If not, the market would REALLY understand why top execs sold so many shares. Apple is in trouble. I really hope they can pull through. They need to drop MOT. Maybe go with Nvidia. Maybe IBM. But lose MOT.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I disagree... first of all about your deductoin that market share is dropping based on the drop in revenue -- PC companies are declaring losses or shortfalls of the same (or worse) magnitude.
I also disagree that they need to drop Motorola. What they need to do is ensure a future supply of powerful processors for the PowerMac line, and a solid supply of consumer and portable processors. If this means dropping Motorola, then so be it. I suspect the situation is much more complex, however. Ideally both Motorola and IBM would deliver chips that Apple can choose from so that Apple doesn't get stuck back in another single-source situation. From all that has been tossed around lately I could easily see that next year at this time Apple might be swimming in processor options: IBM SIMD equipped low-power G3s for the iBook, Motorola G4s for the consumer line (possibly using RapidIO & on-chip memory controller), and IBM POWER-derived chips for the PowerMac line.
PC companies are declaring losses or shortfalls of the same (or worse) magnitude.
hmm,? and going out of business. Who is Apple going to ?consolidate? with?
I think if Apple execs had any astuteness, they would use Nvidia?s ambitions and need to conquer fresh markets, as a vehicle to depose the Mico$oft/Intel hegemony. It?s an opportune time for Apple to try this.
Whatever happened to that silicon germanium process IBM was making such a buzz about a while back? Using a chip with few differences in the process than say a G4...what's to say we wont see the fruits of this coming anytime soon? Jobs has been awfully optimistic lately and IBM stated that the chips were something they could do "now," as in months ago...
[EDIT: UBB decided to take a chunk out of my post...]
<strong>ooh, I wanted to go to Slovenia last year so badly. There was a conference in Ljubljana and if work had paid for it I would've used it for a jumping off point to go to Italy and Croatia, too. Alas, didn't happen. But i hear it's really beuatiful!</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by Telomar:
<strong>Edit: Slovenia is a lovely country I have two friends that live over there. Then again I enjoy visiting just about every country with the exception of the US and Australia.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow! Now you guys impress me - I didn't think anyone actually even knows where it is! Hehe, yeah it's a nice country and you can reach Venezia or the nice Croatian coast in only a few hours.
Oh, and since I am originally from Ljubljana - what kind of a conference would that be?
I think that for the general public Apple doesn't need to promote processor speed or worry about speed comparisons with Intel. Most people don't buy 2.0GHz pentiums. Lots of sub 1GHz p3s are still sold.
Apple should focus on selling functionality (some of this comes across in the current ads). I don't want to buy a mult-gigaHertz processor. I want to edit movies painlessly, use email, etc. The processor speed needs to be respetable but doesn't need to be leading edge.
As more time goes by processor speed will become less relevant. When iDVD encodes a movie at 10x speeds, when iTunes compresses at 20x or 30x speeds then it won't make much difference whether you have one 10GHz processor or quad 2.5GHz processors.
IBM SIMD equipped low-power G3s for the iBook, Motorola G4s for the consumer line (possibly using RapidIO & on-chip memory controller), and IBM POWER-derived chips for the PowerMac line.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Do you think that a simplified power 4 with a Simd unit will be a possible choice.
I expect in that case that it will be still a dual core chip, i think the benchmarks in a case of a single core will not be better than the 7455.
Memory access will be stellar. And you'll see why. not only will DDR SDRAM make a debut but it will not connect to the processor iin a conventional manner. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm Programmer:
you talked about this already earlier.
What is an unconventional way to access the memory?
I guess Dorsal is talking about the 1GB/sec limit (now in Xserve). that it will disappear?
I expect we'll see something different then the Xserve mobo.
I find it very hard to believe that SJ and all the rest have just been sitting on their hands all this time. They must have had contingency plans when the G4 stagnated. They must realize that they can't let themselves get too far behind. They've got $4bn sitting in the bank, I doubt they'll just leave it their earning interest while the company gradually loses marketshare.
Of course, this kind of thing has happpened before to Apple, whos to say it's not happening again. I just hope that SJ has learned something from the past.
[quote]It wont matter much when Apple is a 5$ stock. It?s make or break for Apple. <hr></blockquote>
I wouldn't worry too much. The stock can't go any lower, it would mean their market cap was lower that the value of their cash and investments! Not really possible. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
<strong>I find it very hard to believe that SJ and all the rest have just been sitting on their hands all this time. They must have had contingency plans when the G4 stagnated. They must realize that they can't let themselves get too far behind. They've got $4bn sitting in the bank, I doubt they'll just leave it their earning interest while the company gradually loses marketshare.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree. It's been said that NY01 and SF02 were supposed to show much better hardware, but due to technical hurdles Jobs opted for more conservative machines. I don't know if those new PowerMacs Gx will see the light of day at NY02, but I'm pretty sure that if something gets screwed up at the last minute we're going to see some heads rolling at Apple: it's a trend that can't possibly go on forever...
It wont matter much when Apple is a 5$ stock. It?s make or break for Apple. Revenues are dropping, which means market share is dropping further, which means ? death. <hr></blockquote>
The stocks seem to be basically parallelling one another. It would follow that what problems there are are not Apple's alone. They are industry wide.
BACK ON TOPIC
As for MWNY, I think we will only see g4's but on new boards. However, I do not think we will see a repeat of the "Yikes" episode. It is not as if Apple started working on the new G4 Boards only AFTER they completed the XServe. Obviously these things are happening concurrently, and with a couple of months to iron out kinks, I think we will see a more polished situation than that with XServe.
The problem for Apple is "is it worth puttimg a new line of equipment out at this time given the economic conditons that exist". There isn't a lot of purchasing power available at this time and it would probably be smarter (in an economic sense) to wait until Jan-03.
It's a management call by Apple at this time, i'd vote to wait for the good stuff to be released in Jan-03.
<strong>Do you think that a simplified power 4 with a Simd unit will be a possible choice.
I expect in that case that it will be still a dual core chip, i think the benchmarks in a case of a single core will not be better than the 7455.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, I think a modified POWER4 + SIMD is a real possibility (but not for this year!). It could have 1-4 core versions (more than 2 would probably come later in its life an on smaller processes). The benchmarks for a single core will likely clobber the 7455, and it will be able to clock higher than the current 7455.
What is an unconventional way to access the memory?
I guess Dorsal is talking about the 1GB/sec limit (now in Xserve). that it will disappear?
I expect we'll see something different then the Xserve mobo.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Conventional" probably refers to the traditional shared front-side bus (i.e. MPX). Anything else would be unconventional (HyperTransport, RapidIO, a dedicated FSB like the PC, an on-chip memory controller, etc).
I would expect something different than Xserve based on Dorsal's comment. If you believe him, that is. I'll have a lot more faith if he is correct in some real way about the machines at or near MWNY.
Comments
I don't see this 'race' by the way as something like, "Damn they're at 2.6ghz, we gotta do 3," it is more complicated than that. Apple is one who can change perceptions, and we know that ghz isn't all there is. But whatever it is, Apple needs more of it, and at a faster pace. See this opinion as one who has invested a lot of time and money into Apple, an encouragement, not a pure complaint.
<strong>
Oopsie! Now guys, do what the Administrator is telling you to!
See, that's why it's great from a land so small noone gives a **** about! Slovenia is unlikely to be blamed for any mess, whereas the US is a great target to blame for everything...</strong><hr></blockquote>
ooh, I wanted to go to Slovenia last year so badly. There was a conference in Ljubljana and if work had paid for it I would've used it for a jumping off point to go to Italy and Croatia, too. Alas, didn't happen. But i hear it's really beuatiful!
<strong>What is a "stopgap motherboard"??</strong><hr></blockquote>
A stop-gap motherboard is just one where there hasn't been a full implementation of features that would have otherwise been included.
Basically it means Apple has left things off because the time to market of getting a working board out the door was too long. Apple has been very focused on time to market in their recent developments too.
What they do in this case where the time to market is too large if they are really desperate, and Apple would be with respect to DDR right now, is release a "stop-gap" measure. It's just something that is only there for a very short time (usually only until next revision) until they perfect what they were working on.
I can guarantee this revision we will see DDR RAM being used. It looks terrible for Apple to still be using 133MHz SDRAM in their pro systems no matter how good their bus efficiency is and they know that. People do notice when the PC world is starting to talk DDR 400 boards and Apple is still selling 100MHz & 133 MHz SDRAM boards.
It really is now a question of do they have the "complete" board they want to use ready or not? They have had problems with their boards so we just have to wait and see.
Edit: Slovenia is a lovely country
[ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: Telomar ]</p>
<strong>Hey idiots.
Shut up about the USA.
this is Future hardware, remember... you can shoot your mouths off in AppleOutsider.
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Not conduct very becoming of a board admin, I must say.
<strong>
Not conduct very becoming of a board admin, I must say.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It wont matter much when Apple is a 5$ stock. It?s make or break for Apple. Revenues are dropping, which means market share is dropping further, which means ? death. I hope SJ can pull a rabbit or two this MW. If not, the market would REALLY understand why top execs sold so many shares. Apple is in trouble. I really hope they can pull through. They need to drop MOT. Maybe go with Nvidia. Maybe IBM. But lose MOT.
mika.
<strong>It wont matter much when Apple is a 5$ stock. It?s make or break for Apple. Revenues are dropping, which means market share is dropping further, which means ? death. I hope SJ can pull a rabbit or two this MW. If not, the market would REALLY understand why top execs sold so many shares. Apple is in trouble. I really hope they can pull through. They need to drop MOT. Maybe go with Nvidia. Maybe IBM. But lose MOT.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I disagree... first of all about your deductoin that market share is dropping based on the drop in revenue -- PC companies are declaring losses or shortfalls of the same (or worse) magnitude.
I also disagree that they need to drop Motorola. What they need to do is ensure a future supply of powerful processors for the PowerMac line, and a solid supply of consumer and portable processors. If this means dropping Motorola, then so be it. I suspect the situation is much more complex, however. Ideally both Motorola and IBM would deliver chips that Apple can choose from so that Apple doesn't get stuck back in another single-source situation. From all that has been tossed around lately I could easily see that next year at this time Apple might be swimming in processor options: IBM SIMD equipped low-power G3s for the iBook, Motorola G4s for the consumer line (possibly using RapidIO & on-chip memory controller), and IBM POWER-derived chips for the PowerMac line.
quote
PC companies are declaring losses or shortfalls of the same (or worse) magnitude.
hmm,? and going out of business. Who is Apple going to ?consolidate? with?
I think if Apple execs had any astuteness, they would use Nvidia?s ambitions and need to conquer fresh markets, as a vehicle to depose the Mico$oft/Intel hegemony. It?s an opportune time for Apple to try this.
mika.
[EDIT: UBB decided to take a chunk out of my post...]
[ 06-19-2002: Message edited by: Spart ]</p>
<strong>ooh, I wanted to go to Slovenia last year so badly. There was a conference in Ljubljana and if work had paid for it I would've used it for a jumping off point to go to Italy and Croatia, too. Alas, didn't happen. But i hear it's really beuatiful!</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by Telomar:
<strong>Edit: Slovenia is a lovely country
Wow! Now you guys impress me - I didn't think anyone actually even knows where it is! Hehe, yeah it's a nice country and you can reach Venezia or the nice Croatian coast in only a few hours.
Oh, and since I am originally from Ljubljana - what kind of a conference would that be?
Apple should focus on selling functionality (some of this comes across in the current ads). I don't want to buy a mult-gigaHertz processor. I want to edit movies painlessly, use email, etc. The processor speed needs to be respetable but doesn't need to be leading edge.
As more time goes by processor speed will become less relevant. When iDVD encodes a movie at 10x speeds, when iTunes compresses at 20x or 30x speeds then it won't make much difference whether you have one 10GHz processor or quad 2.5GHz processors.
<strong>
IBM SIMD equipped low-power G3s for the iBook, Motorola G4s for the consumer line (possibly using RapidIO & on-chip memory controller), and IBM POWER-derived chips for the PowerMac line.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Do you think that a simplified power 4 with a Simd unit will be a possible choice.
I expect in that case that it will be still a dual core chip, i think the benchmarks in a case of a single core will not be better than the 7455.
Memory access will be stellar. And you'll see why. not only will DDR SDRAM make a debut but it will not connect to the processor iin a conventional manner. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm Programmer:
you talked about this already earlier.
What is an unconventional way to access the memory?
I guess Dorsal is talking about the 1GB/sec limit (now in Xserve). that it will disappear?
I expect we'll see something different then the Xserve mobo.
Of course, this kind of thing has happpened before to Apple, whos to say it's not happening again. I just hope that SJ has learned something from the past.
Sure, on Ebay!! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I wouldn't worry too much. The stock can't go any lower, it would mean their market cap was lower that the value of their cash and investments! Not really possible. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
<strong>I find it very hard to believe that SJ and all the rest have just been sitting on their hands all this time. They must have had contingency plans when the G4 stagnated. They must realize that they can't let themselves get too far behind. They've got $4bn sitting in the bank, I doubt they'll just leave it their earning interest while the company gradually loses marketshare.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree. It's been said that NY01 and SF02 were supposed to show much better hardware, but due to technical hurdles Jobs opted for more conservative machines. I don't know if those new PowerMacs Gx will see the light of day at NY02, but I'm pretty sure that if something gets screwed up at the last minute we're going to see some heads rolling at Apple: it's a trend that can't possibly go on forever...
ZoSo
It wont matter much when Apple is a 5$ stock. It?s make or break for Apple. Revenues are dropping, which means market share is dropping further, which means ? death. <hr></blockquote>
The stocks seem to be basically parallelling one another. It would follow that what problems there are are not Apple's alone. They are industry wide.
BACK ON TOPIC
As for MWNY, I think we will only see g4's but on new boards. However, I do not think we will see a repeat of the "Yikes" episode. It is not as if Apple started working on the new G4 Boards only AFTER they completed the XServe. Obviously these things are happening concurrently, and with a couple of months to iron out kinks, I think we will see a more polished situation than that with XServe.
Hope Springs Eternal,
Mandricard
AppleOutsider
[ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: Mandricard ]</p>
It's a management call by Apple at this time, i'd vote to wait for the good stuff to be released in Jan-03.
<strong>Do you think that a simplified power 4 with a Simd unit will be a possible choice.
I expect in that case that it will be still a dual core chip, i think the benchmarks in a case of a single core will not be better than the 7455.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, I think a modified POWER4 + SIMD is a real possibility (but not for this year!). It could have 1-4 core versions (more than 2 would probably come later in its life an on smaller processes). The benchmarks for a single core will likely clobber the 7455, and it will be able to clock higher than the current 7455.
[ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: Programmer ]</p>
<strong>
Hmm Programmer:
you talked about this already earlier.
What is an unconventional way to access the memory?
I guess Dorsal is talking about the 1GB/sec limit (now in Xserve). that it will disappear?
I expect we'll see something different then the Xserve mobo.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Conventional" probably refers to the traditional shared front-side bus (i.e. MPX). Anything else would be unconventional (HyperTransport, RapidIO, a dedicated FSB like the PC, an on-chip memory controller, etc).
I would expect something different than Xserve based on Dorsal's comment. If you believe him, that is. I'll have a lot more faith if he is correct in some real way about the machines at or near MWNY.