I wonder if this gives credibility to the rumor that things are NOT ready for the next-big-thing in the PowerMac line... that the "Plan-B" solution is what will be released, and Apple knows that the graphics market won't "bite" until the Big guns come-out.
I dunno... just looking for a connection.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm an optimist, but I read it as positive. It's June, the year ahead includes July and MWNY, then we get MWSF and MWTK...
We could get:
MWNY - 'Stellar' Powermac
MWSF - Powerbook DDR
MWTK - NewtonX
All we really know is we don't know, but the report didn't say no new hardware.
<strong>It doesn't make sense for APUs to be connected by the Ocean fabric. APUs have to be directly connected to the e500's dispatch unit, completion unit and registers. So they must be inside the e500 core itself.</strong>
I have reviewed this in the documentation I got, you're right, the APUs are not connected via OCEAN, they are connected directly to the core as you say.
<strong>The Ocean fabric connects I/O, not processor execution units. It can maybe connect multiple e500 cores together, but I really doubt that.</strong>
My documents do not mention processors with multiple e500 cores, but I don't doubt that there are plans for a design using more than one core. Unfortunately I cannot tell how they could be connected.
But I have some further information that may be interesting:
- I have reviewed the e500 core design documentation (well, in my docs it is not described as 'e500', the docs are older and the 'e500' name might not yet have existed at that time, but I can assure that it is what is now called 'e500'), and I must say that it is pretty different from the core used by any 74xx CPU. It offers about the same performance per clock cycle, but with a less complex design - that means that the e500 is much more efficient than current cores. I must say that I would have preferred a design with more execution units and superior performance, I fear that the e500 as described in my docs will not be able to compete with Opterons or other high performance designs.
- The SIMD APU described by Motorola is not the Altivec APU that will be used in the desktop G5, it is a much simpler unit that will probably only offer basic math operations.
- I got some further information about a very interesting ASIC that might be used in future PowerMacs, I will post information about this very soon.
Most of us caught the gaping hole in the XServe: The link between memory and the processor was still 133mhz.
What if Apple left off the new connection from the XServer intro?
If the XServe still is not shipping in July, it may be that Apple has implemented a fast memory-to-processor scheme and did not want to let the cat out of the bag until MWNY.
This way they get to launch XServe, get a few units sold, get the hype and all of the one-product launch AND get to say, come mid-July, "Purchasers actually get a better deal than they thought - the fast memory-processor link."
Perhaps the "stop-gap" was to intro the server product with the 133 mhz memory-processor bus - but never ship it that way.
I have reviewed this in the documentation I got, you're right, the APUs are not connected via OCEAN, they are connected directly to the core as you say.
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There are big problems with adding things to the e500 core (Altivec, FPU) as demonstrated by the fact that the SIMD APU uses the integer registers. Adding execution units with their own registers, a necessity for both altivec and an FPU, since they need wider registers, changes the design of the scheduler. The scheduler needs to know all about all the registers and what instructions touch them, to be able to pick instructions that are'nt blocked.
There are other problems with these units as well, unfortunately e500 does'nt reduce CPU design to pick and mix.
I wonder if this gives credibility to the rumor that things are NOT ready for the next-big-thing in the PowerMac line... that the "Plan-B" solution is what will be released, and Apple knows that the graphics market won't "bite" until the Big guns come-out.
I dunno... just looking for a connection.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I wouldn't worry too much about that. It is really just Apple confirming that the LCD iMacs sales have flattened off faster than expected in this past quarter.
I doubt most analysts will care too much though as it was fairly common knowledge. It's worth noting that Apple deliberately announced eMacs for everyone ahead of this. That will reassure markets they are going insert something at lower price points until they can lower prices back down and they aren't completely ignoring low cost consumer options.
<strong>There are big problems with adding things to the e500 core (Altivec, FPU) as demonstrated by the fact that the SIMD APU uses the integer registers. Adding execution units with their own registers, a necessity for both altivec and an FPU, since they need wider registers, changes the design of the scheduler. The scheduler needs to know all about all the registers and what instructions touch them, to be able to pick instructions that are'nt blocked.
There are other problems with these units as well, unfortunately e500 does'nt reduce CPU design to pick and mix.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Pity -- one would have hoped they would have addressed these fundamental issues of core design when planning how to make the thing support APUs. Ah well, I guess we'll just have to wait for the new core and rely on the 7455's in the meantime.
<strong>All we really know is we don't know, but the report didn't say no new hardware.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, the Apple promo that allows employees to buy hardware at a discount came out yesterday. Usually it's a solid guide to what products need to be cleared out of the channel and will soon be discontinued/revved.
CRT iMacs and all Powermacs (including dual 1GHz) are on the list. I think the CRT iMacs are clearly on the way out due to the eMac, and the Powermacs suggest that a rev is due soon.
Now, I've held that Apple no longer wants to use the expos to focus on consumer-level product, but a sufficient architecture change to the pro line (suggesting a later trickle-down to the consumer line) might work as well.
Now, my opinion is that the G4 iMac clearly points to a sufficient distinguishing feature in the pro line arriving soon (something other than pure MHz) but at the same time, I'm not overly optimistic regarding G5 or big MHz gains just yet.
In other words, I think people will be disappointed that the improvements aren't 'dramatic' enough, though they probably will be noticeable to Apple's pro customers. I think Apple scooping up DV products foretells dramatic stuff a year from now or so, but not now - the software isn't ready and a big hardware rollout would be wasted.
[quote] Well, the Apple promo that allows employees to buy hardware at a discount came out yesterday. Usually it's a solid guide to what products need to be cleared out of the channel and will soon be discontinued/revved.
<hr></blockquote>
Interesting. I remember they did the same thing for the TiBooks and iMacs (put them on the QPromo). The CRT iMacs were something like 45% off (as opposed to the usual 20%), on the Winter 2001 QPromo; for reasons that are now obvious.
CRT iMacs and all Powermacs (including dual 1GHz) are on the list. I think the CRT iMacs are clearly on the way out due to the eMac, and the Powermacs suggest that a rev is due soon.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by PipelineStall:
<strong>
Interesting. I remember they did the same thing for the TiBooks and iMacs (put them on the QPromo). The CRT iMacs were something like 45% off (as opposed to the usual 20%), on the Winter 2001 QPromo; for reasons that are now obvious. </strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>How high are the discounts now?</strong><hr></blockquote>
About 20%. Pretty standard promo discount. I'm guessing that a heavier discount is indicative of more inventory to move, rather than a more dramatic rev.
only one post and ready to enter in a flamewar ? </strong><hr></blockquote>
No , that was not my intention .
I am a rational person , I just tell the truth. I should've emphasized MOST . That most certainly does NOT mean ALL. I registered because my iMac rev a is getting old , and I wanna buy a new mac after MW expo.
PS: been following this forums for 3 years now, its about time I register no?
I disagree, I think Jobs likes to have many impressive new thing to promote at an Expo, as ong as they don't detract attention from each other. A camera doesn't detract from a PowerMac, so that would be a better combo than a totally new iMac and totally new PowerMac.
US soccer rules!! (Just joking, all the international students are pissed that the US is winning at all)
<a href="http://www.geek.com/procspec/apple/g5.htm"; target="_blank">this</a> doesn't bode well .. nothing we didn't know already, but when ChipGeek posts it, then we should get worried.
Comments
<strong>
That was from MacCentral.
I wonder if this gives credibility to the rumor that things are NOT ready for the next-big-thing in the PowerMac line... that the "Plan-B" solution is what will be released, and Apple knows that the graphics market won't "bite" until the Big guns come-out.
I dunno... just looking for a connection.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm an optimist, but I read it as positive. It's June, the year ahead includes July and MWNY, then we get MWSF and MWTK...
We could get:
MWNY - 'Stellar' Powermac
MWSF - Powerbook DDR
MWTK - NewtonX
All we really know is we don't know, but the report didn't say no new hardware.
[ 06-18-2002: Message edited by: Blackcat ]</p>
<strong>It doesn't make sense for APUs to be connected by the Ocean fabric. APUs have to be directly connected to the e500's dispatch unit, completion unit and registers. So they must be inside the e500 core itself.</strong>
I have reviewed this in the documentation I got, you're right, the APUs are not connected via OCEAN, they are connected directly to the core as you say.
<strong>The Ocean fabric connects I/O, not processor execution units. It can maybe connect multiple e500 cores together, but I really doubt that.</strong>
My documents do not mention processors with multiple e500 cores, but I don't doubt that there are plans for a design using more than one core. Unfortunately I cannot tell how they could be connected.
But I have some further information that may be interesting:
- I have reviewed the e500 core design documentation (well, in my docs it is not described as 'e500', the docs are older and the 'e500' name might not yet have existed at that time, but I can assure that it is what is now called 'e500'), and I must say that it is pretty different from the core used by any 74xx CPU. It offers about the same performance per clock cycle, but with a less complex design - that means that the e500 is much more efficient than current cores. I must say that I would have preferred a design with more execution units and superior performance, I fear that the e500 as described in my docs will not be able to compete with Opterons or other high performance designs.
- The SIMD APU described by Motorola is not the Altivec APU that will be used in the desktop G5, it is a much simpler unit that will probably only offer basic math operations.
- I got some further information about a very interesting ASIC that might be used in future PowerMacs, I will post information about this very soon.
What if Apple left off the new connection from the XServer intro?
If the XServe still is not shipping in July, it may be that Apple has implemented a fast memory-to-processor scheme and did not want to let the cat out of the bag until MWNY.
This way they get to launch XServe, get a few units sold, get the hype and all of the one-product launch AND get to say, come mid-July, "Purchasers actually get a better deal than they thought - the fast memory-processor link."
Perhaps the "stop-gap" was to intro the server product with the 133 mhz memory-processor bus - but never ship it that way.
Call me stupid....
<strong>
I have reviewed this in the documentation I got, you're right, the APUs are not connected via OCEAN, they are connected directly to the core as you say.
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There are big problems with adding things to the e500 core (Altivec, FPU) as demonstrated by the fact that the SIMD APU uses the integer registers. Adding execution units with their own registers, a necessity for both altivec and an FPU, since they need wider registers, changes the design of the scheduler. The scheduler needs to know all about all the registers and what instructions touch them, to be able to pick instructions that are'nt blocked.
There are other problems with these units as well, unfortunately e500 does'nt reduce CPU design to pick and mix.
Michael
<strong>That was from MacCentral.
I wonder if this gives credibility to the rumor that things are NOT ready for the next-big-thing in the PowerMac line... that the "Plan-B" solution is what will be released, and Apple knows that the graphics market won't "bite" until the Big guns come-out.
I dunno... just looking for a connection.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I wouldn't worry too much about that. It is really just Apple confirming that the LCD iMacs sales have flattened off faster than expected in this past quarter.
I doubt most analysts will care too much though as it was fairly common knowledge. It's worth noting that Apple deliberately announced eMacs for everyone ahead of this. That will reassure markets they are going insert something at lower price points until they can lower prices back down and they aren't completely ignoring low cost consumer options.
<strong>There are big problems with adding things to the e500 core (Altivec, FPU) as demonstrated by the fact that the SIMD APU uses the integer registers. Adding execution units with their own registers, a necessity for both altivec and an FPU, since they need wider registers, changes the design of the scheduler. The scheduler needs to know all about all the registers and what instructions touch them, to be able to pick instructions that are'nt blocked.
There are other problems with these units as well, unfortunately e500 does'nt reduce CPU design to pick and mix.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Pity -- one would have hoped they would have addressed these fundamental issues of core design when planning how to make the thing support APUs. Ah well, I guess we'll just have to wait for the new core and rely on the 7455's in the meantime.
<strong>All we really know is we don't know, but the report didn't say no new hardware.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, the Apple promo that allows employees to buy hardware at a discount came out yesterday. Usually it's a solid guide to what products need to be cleared out of the channel and will soon be discontinued/revved.
CRT iMacs and all Powermacs (including dual 1GHz) are on the list. I think the CRT iMacs are clearly on the way out due to the eMac, and the Powermacs suggest that a rev is due soon.
Now, I've held that Apple no longer wants to use the expos to focus on consumer-level product, but a sufficient architecture change to the pro line (suggesting a later trickle-down to the consumer line) might work as well.
Now, my opinion is that the G4 iMac clearly points to a sufficient distinguishing feature in the pro line arriving soon (something other than pure MHz) but at the same time, I'm not overly optimistic regarding G5 or big MHz gains just yet.
In other words, I think people will be disappointed that the improvements aren't 'dramatic' enough, though they probably will be noticeable to Apple's pro customers. I think Apple scooping up DV products foretells dramatic stuff a year from now or so, but not now - the software isn't ready and a big hardware rollout would be wasted.
<hr></blockquote>
Interesting. I remember they did the same thing for the TiBooks and iMacs (put them on the QPromo). The CRT iMacs were something like 45% off (as opposed to the usual 20%), on the Winter 2001 QPromo; for reasons that are now obvious.
[ 06-19-2002: Message edited by: PipelineStall ]</p>
<strong>
CRT iMacs and all Powermacs (including dual 1GHz) are on the list. I think the CRT iMacs are clearly on the way out due to the eMac, and the Powermacs suggest that a rev is due soon.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by PipelineStall:
<strong>
Interesting. I remember they did the same thing for the TiBooks and iMacs (put them on the QPromo). The CRT iMacs were something like 45% off (as opposed to the usual 20%), on the Winter 2001 QPromo; for reasons that are now obvious.
How high are the discounts now?
<strong>How high are the discounts now?</strong><hr></blockquote>
About 20%. Pretty standard promo discount. I'm guessing that a heavier discount is indicative of more inventory to move, rather than a more dramatic rev.
<strong>
It's June, the year ahead includes July and MWNY, then we get MWSF and MWTK...
We could get:
MWNY - 'Stellar' Powermac
MWSF - Powerbook DDR
MWTK - NewtonX
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why do people always forget about MacExpo Paris in September? I guess we might be getting the GeForce 5 there.
G-News
<strong>
Why do people always forget about MacExpo Paris in September? I guess we might be getting the GeForce 5 there.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Because most Americans don't give a f*ck what happens outside of the USA (those othe 5.8 billion souls).
Just read their news papers/magazines to verify.
<strong>
Because most Americans don't give a f*ck what happens outside of the USA (those othe 5.8 billion souls).
Just read their news papers/magazines to verify.</strong><hr></blockquote>
only one post and ready to enter in a flamewar ?
<strong>
only one post and ready to enter in a flamewar ?
No , that was not my intention .
I am a rational person , I just tell the truth. I should've emphasized MOST . That most certainly does NOT mean ALL. I registered because my iMac rev a is getting old , and I wanna buy a new mac after MW expo.
PS: been following this forums for 3 years now, its about time I register no?
please don't flame me.
Jobs won't put 2 very big things in one event
(aka G5(or very big powerMac upgrade) and a new device).
So I hope the camera is for later
US soccer rules!! (Just joking, all the international students are pissed that the US is winning at all)
<strong>(Just joking, all the international students are pissed that the US is winning at all)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tell them they can go play soccer for their land themselves, if they're not happy with it
at least the bus speed is greatly improved.
pity bout the 85XX ..
c'est la vie
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />