I assume that using any password manager means I can't access my online accounts using anyone else's computer? Like I won't be doing any online banking via my work computer because I won't actually know the "real" password, right?
I assume that using any password manager means I can't access my online accounts using anyone else's computer? Like I won't be doing any online banking via my work computer because I won't actually know the "real" password, right?
It's been a long time since I used it, so can someone please clarify if 1Password directly interacts with Safari now, or do I still need to use their built-in browser?
It's been a long time since I used it, so can someone please clarify if 1Password directly interacts with Safari now, or do I still need to use their built-in browser?
On iOS you have to use their built-in browser until iOS 8 is release. Apple will allow third party extensions with iOS 8, which should be released in few weeks.
Why bother with Numbers?! Go to a stationary store and buy one of these notebooks with small lock and key and built in pencil. It will do exactly the same thing and you don't have to worry about syncing and internet!
I can't password lock a notebook. Maybe yours have a little heart locket or something?
You're right - you don't need to pay for a password tool. You can store your passwords in a spreadsheet. You know what else? You don't need to use a car to get to work - that costs money and is, in a sense, a third-party tool when compared to your feet which you could use to walk to work. I bought a car because I wanted the convenience and the speed of getting where I want to go.
I'm afraid I have to completely agree with macxpress - this sounds like the most cumbersome, inconvenient method of password management I can imagine. If you only log in to a couple of sites, and if you're the kind of person who isn't willing to pay a little money for convenience, then more power to you for using what works.
On the other hand, I currently have 317 distinct website passwords stored in 1Password and I can't even begin to fathom the hassle of wanting to log in to a site, switching to Numbers and opening a document, searching for the site, copying the login name, switching back to Safari, pasting the login name, switching back to Numbers, copying the password, switching back to Safari, and pasting the password. And if there's a secondary or tertiary authentication method (as is often the case with banks), repeating the process a third, and possibly a fourth time.
And then if I want to purchase something on a site, opening another Numbers spreadsheet or tab and repeating the process for my credit card number, my expiration date, and my verification code. No. Just. No.
Instead of all this, I open 1Password on my Mac or iOS device, type in the name of the site I want to hit, select it, click the link, and within seconds I'm logged in and doing whatever it is I needed to do. If I want to buy something, from within 1Password I hit the lock icon and navigate to my desired method of payment and select it and all of the information is entered and I'm done. Ditto for my shipping and billing address information.
Seriously, whatever works for you - but before I'd resort to storing my passwords in a spreadsheet and dealing with lots of app switching and copying and pasting, I'd bang my head against a wall. Of nails. With the pointy-sides out. After they've been left to rust. That sounds far more pleasant.
You log into 317 distinct websites? Daily, weekly or monthly?
Clearly our priorities are very different.
I've probably got about two hundred different passwords from various things. The less critical are in iCloud Keychain available whenever i need them, a few critical ones like my Apple ID are in my head, and the rest are in a Numbers doc and easy enough to find whenever and where ever I need them. Don't h8 because you had to spent money to accomplish the same thing.
*Bonus: My Macs also run faster/leaner without all the unnecessary gobbly-gook. You like the cutesy little lock in the menu bar, I like all power to the warp drive. To each his own.
I open 1Password on my Mac or iOS device, type in the name of the site I want to hit...
That reads as a very unintuitive thing to do: wanting to go to a website by opening a password app... instead of a browser. But ok, iOS8 to the rescue as I understand it.
Good to know. Though perhaps relevant for [@]Lorin Schultz[/@], IE is not supported, as stated at the bottom of that page. Then again, it's v3 on that page, so things may have changed now that they're on 4.5.3
I wanted to take advantage of the sale offer but was very disappointed to learn that 1Password for the Mac requires Mac OS X 10.8.5 Mountain Lion or newer. :rolleyes: :no:
I assume that using any password manager means I can't access my online accounts using anyone else's computer? Like I won't be doing any online banking via my work computer because I won't actually know the "real" password, right?
In addition to Soli's reply: you don't specifically NEED to have both the Mac OSX and iOS version of the app. They do work in great harmony together, but for your worry and [@]Riot Nrrrd(TM)[/@]'s... uhm... problem, the iOS version "could be" enough.
I wanted to take advantage of the sale offer but was very disappointed to learn that 1Password for the Mac requires Mac OS X 10.8.5 Mountain Lion or newer. :rolleyes: :no:
Ditto the Emoticons for complaining: :rolleyes: :no:
Ditto the Emoticons for complaining: :rolleyes: :no:
I don't see why complaining isn't legitimate. I'm running on Snow Leopard 10.6.8 at home and the vast majority of software I use runs just fine on it.
I've seen some software where the developers say that the APIs they need changed starting in Lion so they dropped Snow Leopard support and only support Lion and newer. I don't like that either, but a least it's a fair excuse. But I can't think of any other software I know of that demands so recent an OS version for their Mac client as 10.8.5.
Disclaimer: I don't know anything about 1Password and have never run it, so if it's possible to use it just on an iOS device and still be able to enter passwords while I'm on my Mac, I'm all ears - but most of the benefits of a password manager come from Forms auto-fill which obviously isn't possible in that scenario.
Don't h8 because you had to spent money to accomplish the same thing.
I don't hate - I bought a computer to do things for me. Sounds like you may have bought a computer to be a rather expensive notebook. No worries. Whatever time you perceive to save by having your computer run faster than mine is more than eaten up by the amount of time taken to switch apps back and forth repeatedly to copy and paste.
Really, personal digs aside, each of us has our workflow preferences. However, us Mac users generally spend a lot of money for our computers and to me the cost of the software in comparison is not much considering the convenience and security of password management. I mean, really. I have spent a lot of money on tools like OmniFocus when I could just track my tasks in a spreadsheet (or a spiral notebook). Again, I bought a computer to do things for me and I like the way OmniFocus helps my workflow. 1Password is another one of those tools that I feel saves me time and mental energy.
I don’t remember why I’d need this over what OS X/iOS does natively. Anyone?
I thought the exact same thing. Here is why I cut over and why I think it's a great decision:
1. I don't like how keychain is secured on mobile devices. It's the same 4-digit pin as your device.
2. Keychain sucks for storing passwords that you'd need to type into an app. You can get to the PW, but it's really awkward.
3. I can store a whole lot more more stuff in 1P. Passports, banking, software serials, secure notes, etc...
4. I don't trust cloud providers like Evernote, even if I encrypt the note. I feel better about a 256 AES encrypted database, even if it *does* sit on an iCloud drive (which I don't need to do, just choose to).
Stuff I didn't expect and really like:
1. I do a lot of demos. I can open and log into sites really quickly with the 1P Mini app.
2. I like the password formulae. Keychain always proposes insane passwords. They are great, but if you need to type them into your Apple TV, it's not ideal. I can generate passwords that are hard to figure out but more usable. I scale strength based on the type of site.
3. I actually do use it for a lot more stuff than I thought I would.
I tend to doubt that the example you give is better -- assuming your definition of better is 'more secure'. The first can be hacked with a dictionary attack whereas the second is totally random an uses a mix of lowercase alpha, numbers and punctuation. By simple reasoning alone your 14 char passwords are made up of a common simple phrase consisting of 3 words (one being the most common password used) whereas the other could be stronger and contain as many english language pairs I would consider it stronger. Care to share your source?
http://xkcd.com/936/ -- For the quick explaination. Bottom line, I agree with the over all idea. But, not exactly how the comic presents it.
When a website enforces complex passwords, but sets the minimum length to 8 characters -- that's all the user will create an 8 character password. Now, don't get me wrong a complex 8 character password is, eh, secure enough. The problem for the average user, though, will be the password paradox. They will have a hard time remembering complex passwords, so what does that person do? They use the same exact complex password for -everything- which, of course, is terrible. Therefore, the argument is that minimum length should be set much higher, as high as say 25+ characters, but complexity not enforced. The user would then be free to make a more memorable password.
Ergo -- since "mynameisjoeblowandiamawesome" is much easier to remember then "(yZ0gN,C" users would create unique passwords more often.
From a brute force perspective longer non-complex passwords have greater entropy then shorter more complex passwords and, as such, would take a lot longer to "guess". Which would be fine if dictionary attacks didn't exist. Combining non-capitalized letters together wouldn't be difficult.
Now, if I didn't know that users would just capitalize the only the first letter and put a "1" at the end of their password I would suggest that some complexity be required. Instead, what I would like to see is that users combine mnemonics with their passwords.
Ergo -- "mynameisjoeblowaiaa" where "aiaa" = "and i am awesome" or something like this.
Tl/DR: A long password comprised of simple words is more secure and easier to remember than a shorter alphanumeric password with symbols and punctuation.
The concept is an over simplification. In a very "random" password, each position could be made up of 26 upper case, 26 lower case, 10 digits and over 20 symbols. That's 82 possible characters at each position. If you want to build a "simple" password that "easy to remember", you'll go all letters in one case, as in the example. In that case, the shorter password is still more secure (albeit the spread isn't huge).
A while ago, sadly don't remember where, I read an article by a password cracker on how passwords are cracked without hash tables. They were pretty clear that the random passwords are the most problematic as they use a variety of techniques to easily guess away many passwords.
Ergo -- since "mynameisjoeblowandiamawesome" is much easier to remember then "(yZ0gN,C" users would create unique passwords more often.
I don't believe it. With a PW manager you can easily create a unique password for every site. The biggest risk if you use any decent password is that weak security on one site will compromise a PW you used on 50 sites.
How many sites do you have PWs at? I started using 1P not too long ago and right now I have 78, with many more not in there yet. What are the odds of someone memorizing the crazy sentence they made for each site without creating a pattern (e.g. thissiteisnamedappleinsiderdotcom)? Low. Before 1P I had 4 passwords: Junk (for dodgy sites I don't trust. Go ahead, lose it.), Low security (trust you a bit, info on site unimportant), Medium security (important data, I trust you), High security (long PW, critical data, high level of trust), plus unique PW for email. Still, lots of reuse and I still needed to keep a dictionary to remind me of what level I bound to what site.
I don't believe it. With a PW manager you can easily create a unique password for every site. The biggest risk if you use any decent password is that weak security on one site will compromise a PW you used on 50 sites.
How many sites do you have PWs at? I started using 1P not too long ago and right now I have 78, with many more not in there yet. What are the odds of someone memorizing the crazy sentence they made for each site without creating a pattern (e.g. thissiteisnamedappleinsiderdotcom)? Low. Before 1P I had 4 passwords: Junk (for dodgy sites I don't trust. Go ahead, lose it.), Low security (trust you a bit, info on site unimportant), Medium security (important data, I trust you), High security (long PW, critical data, high level of trust), plus unique PW for email. Still, lots of reuse and I still needed to keep a dictionary to remind me of what level I bound to what site.
And 1P's auditing features help you figure out which ones are weak passwords, which ones haven't bene changed in a long time (something I typically don't need to worry about since I'm using a unique password for each site but I do change them every 3 years), and their new Watchtower service that lets you know if a site has been compromised. On top of that there are all the other features included.
My only quibbles with 1P are (in order of most to least difficult):
An option for multiple passwords and/or a delay response on the Mac. For example, I have one account that has been put in a username and password, which then goes to another screen which asks for an additional security item. I'd like this to be a single click option to complete both pages. A similar situation for another site that has me put in a username on one page, which then goes to another name and has me put in a password after verifying a word and image (that is for phishing scams, if you haven't seen that setup before).
No category for health info. You can put your health insurance info in the Membership category but I want something that will list vaccinations with their year and expiration date, as well as other relevant info that one may need but doesn't often access and therefore doesn't usually recall from memory. I current use their Secure Notes for this.
Now that 1P uses browser extensions, instead of plug-ins, it's harder to tell when an extension has been updated. I would like them to simple generate a standard Mac notification to say something like, "Your 1Password browser extension(s) were updated to version 4.2.5."
I don't believe it. With a PW manager you can easily create a unique password for every site. The biggest risk if you use any decent password is that weak security on one site will compromise a PW you used on 50 sites.
How many sites do you have PWs at? I started using 1P not too long ago and right now I have 78, with many more not in there yet. What are the odds of someone memorizing the crazy sentence they made for each site without creating a pattern (e.g. thissiteisnamedappleinsiderdotcom)? Low. Before 1P I had 4 passwords: Junk (for dodgy sites I don't trust. Go ahead, lose it.), Low security (trust you a bit, info on site unimportant), Medium security (important data, I trust you), High security (long PW, critical data, high level of trust), plus unique PW for email. Still, lots of reuse and I still needed to keep a dictionary to remind me of what level I bound to what site.
Oh, I absolutely agree that password managers are the future. I was just responding to the 'long non-complex password' model/idea/theory whatever you want to call it. There are loads of problems with it. Users will still game the system. Which is why I stated that I agree with it in principle, but not exactly as presented.
Long, complex, high entropy passwords that are unique for every website are absolutely the best. Getting people to use password managers and getting them to work in every situation and getting the people to not use "1234" or whatever as their 1Password is another.
I just saw FreeDiverX's post and his cartoon demonstrates the concept of passphrases perfectly. I still like the longer 8 part passphrases, but if the words are random, he is correct that 4 should be enough.
That was a nice cartoon. I use something similar to make up passwords. I use easy to remember location descriptions or cross streets. For example: PennsylvaniaAveNW@MadisonPlNW. Of course that is not my current address, but you get the idea. I'm sure 1Password is much more secure than my system, however I have not tried it yet, mostly because I think it would probably take a long time to set up and get used to, not sure.
Comments
I assume that using any password manager means I can't access my online accounts using anyone else's computer? Like I won't be doing any online banking via my work computer because I won't actually know the "real" password, right?
Nope and nope.
It's been a long time since I used it, so can someone please clarify if 1Password directly interacts with Safari now, or do I still need to use their built-in browser?
It's been a long time since I used it, so can someone please clarify if 1Password directly interacts with Safari now, or do I still need to use their built-in browser?
On iOS you have to use their built-in browser until iOS 8 is release. Apple will allow third party extensions with iOS 8, which should be released in few weeks.
Why bother with Numbers?! Go to a stationary store and buy one of these notebooks with small lock and key and built in pencil. It will do exactly the same thing and you don't have to worry about syncing and internet!
I can't password lock a notebook. Maybe yours have a little heart locket or something?
You're right - you don't need to pay for a password tool. You can store your passwords in a spreadsheet. You know what else? You don't need to use a car to get to work - that costs money and is, in a sense, a third-party tool when compared to your feet which you could use to walk to work. I bought a car because I wanted the convenience and the speed of getting where I want to go.
I'm afraid I have to completely agree with macxpress - this sounds like the most cumbersome, inconvenient method of password management I can imagine. If you only log in to a couple of sites, and if you're the kind of person who isn't willing to pay a little money for convenience, then more power to you for using what works.
On the other hand, I currently have 317 distinct website passwords stored in 1Password and I can't even begin to fathom the hassle of wanting to log in to a site, switching to Numbers and opening a document, searching for the site, copying the login name, switching back to Safari, pasting the login name, switching back to Numbers, copying the password, switching back to Safari, and pasting the password. And if there's a secondary or tertiary authentication method (as is often the case with banks), repeating the process a third, and possibly a fourth time.
And then if I want to purchase something on a site, opening another Numbers spreadsheet or tab and repeating the process for my credit card number, my expiration date, and my verification code. No. Just. No.
Instead of all this, I open 1Password on my Mac or iOS device, type in the name of the site I want to hit, select it, click the link, and within seconds I'm logged in and doing whatever it is I needed to do. If I want to buy something, from within 1Password I hit the lock icon and navigate to my desired method of payment and select it and all of the information is entered and I'm done. Ditto for my shipping and billing address information.
Seriously, whatever works for you - but before I'd resort to storing my passwords in a spreadsheet and dealing with lots of app switching and copying and pasting, I'd bang my head against a wall. Of nails. With the pointy-sides out. After they've been left to rust. That sounds far more pleasant.
Whew!
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You log into 317 distinct websites? Daily, weekly or monthly?
Clearly our priorities are very different.
I've probably got about two hundred different passwords from various things. The less critical are in iCloud Keychain available whenever i need them, a few critical ones like my Apple ID are in my head, and the rest are in a Numbers doc and easy enough to find whenever and where ever I need them. Don't h8 because you had to spent money to accomplish the same thing.
*Bonus: My Macs also run faster/leaner without all the unnecessary gobbly-gook. You like the cutesy little lock in the menu bar, I like all power to the warp drive. To each his own.
That reads as a very unintuitive thing to do: wanting to go to a website by opening a password app... instead of a browser. But ok, iOS8 to the rescue as I understand it.
Good to know. Though perhaps relevant for [@]Lorin Schultz[/@], IE is not supported, as stated at the bottom of that page. Then again, it's v3 on that page, so things may have changed now that they're on 4.5.3
Thanks to all for the added info after our last discussion.
One thing though; I think the wording on their site is a bit... childish:
Let's start having fun with 1Password!
"...welcome aboard, we’re glad to have you in our family. ..."
"Fun"? "Family"? "grab 1Password 4 at Apple’s iOS App Store"? -Grab? I'll need to pay for it, right¿
"Dropbox, our favorite file-syncing service, is a great option." - the next time I want your opinion, I'll give it to you
"1Password loves both the web and your data!" - "love"?
What's this, a social media outlet?
Also, the Master PW:
Not exactly an image I would use, with a mere 4 characters.
Anyway, those are my handpicked negatives. And I'm being very harsh on them; it is an excellent PW manager, probably the best one out there.
In addition to Soli's reply: you don't specifically NEED to have both the Mac OSX and iOS version of the app. They do work in great harmony together, but for your worry and [@]Riot Nrrrd(TM)[/@]'s... uhm... problem, the iOS version "could be" enough.
Ditto the Emoticons for complaining: :rolleyes: :no:
I've seen some software where the developers say that the APIs they need changed starting in Lion so they dropped Snow Leopard support and only support Lion and newer. I don't like that either, but a least it's a fair excuse. But I can't think of any other software I know of that demands so recent an OS version for their Mac client as 10.8.5.
Disclaimer: I don't know anything about 1Password and have never run it, so if it's possible to use it just on an iOS device and still be able to enter passwords while I'm on my Mac, I'm all ears - but most of the benefits of a password manager come from Forms auto-fill which obviously isn't possible in that scenario.
Don't h8 because you had to spent money to accomplish the same thing.
I don't hate - I bought a computer to do things for me. Sounds like you may have bought a computer to be a rather expensive notebook. No worries. Whatever time you perceive to save by having your computer run faster than mine is more than eaten up by the amount of time taken to switch apps back and forth repeatedly to copy and paste.
Really, personal digs aside, each of us has our workflow preferences. However, us Mac users generally spend a lot of money for our computers and to me the cost of the software in comparison is not much considering the convenience and security of password management. I mean, really. I have spent a lot of money on tools like OmniFocus when I could just track my tasks in a spreadsheet (or a spiral notebook). Again, I bought a computer to do things for me and I like the way OmniFocus helps my workflow. 1Password is another one of those tools that I feel saves me time and mental energy.
I don’t remember why I’d need this over what OS X/iOS does natively. Anyone?
I thought the exact same thing. Here is why I cut over and why I think it's a great decision:
1. I don't like how keychain is secured on mobile devices. It's the same 4-digit pin as your device.
2. Keychain sucks for storing passwords that you'd need to type into an app. You can get to the PW, but it's really awkward.
3. I can store a whole lot more more stuff in 1P. Passports, banking, software serials, secure notes, etc...
4. I don't trust cloud providers like Evernote, even if I encrypt the note. I feel better about a 256 AES encrypted database, even if it *does* sit on an iCloud drive (which I don't need to do, just choose to).
Stuff I didn't expect and really like:
1. I do a lot of demos. I can open and log into sites really quickly with the 1P Mini app.
2. I like the password formulae. Keychain always proposes insane passwords. They are great, but if you need to type them into your Apple TV, it's not ideal. I can generate passwords that are hard to figure out but more usable. I scale strength based on the type of site.
3. I actually do use it for a lot more stuff than I thought I would.
I tend to doubt that the example you give is better -- assuming your definition of better is 'more secure'. The first can be hacked with a dictionary attack whereas the second is totally random an uses a mix of lowercase alpha, numbers and punctuation. By simple reasoning alone your 14 char passwords are made up of a common simple phrase consisting of 3 words (one being the most common password used) whereas the other could be stronger and contain as many english language pairs I would consider it stronger. Care to share your source?
http://xkcd.com/936/ -- For the quick explaination. Bottom line, I agree with the over all idea. But, not exactly how the comic presents it.
When a website enforces complex passwords, but sets the minimum length to 8 characters -- that's all the user will create an 8 character password. Now, don't get me wrong a complex 8 character password is, eh, secure enough. The problem for the average user, though, will be the password paradox. They will have a hard time remembering complex passwords, so what does that person do? They use the same exact complex password for -everything- which, of course, is terrible. Therefore, the argument is that minimum length should be set much higher, as high as say 25+ characters, but complexity not enforced. The user would then be free to make a more memorable password.
Ergo -- since "mynameisjoeblowandiamawesome" is much easier to remember then "(yZ0gN,C" users would create unique passwords more often.
From a brute force perspective longer non-complex passwords have greater entropy then shorter more complex passwords and, as such, would take a lot longer to "guess". Which would be fine if dictionary attacks didn't exist. Combining non-capitalized letters together wouldn't be difficult.
Now, if I didn't know that users would just capitalize the only the first letter and put a "1" at the end of their password I would suggest that some complexity be required. Instead, what I would like to see is that users combine mnemonics with their passwords.
Ergo -- "mynameisjoeblowaiaa" where "aiaa" = "and i am awesome" or something like this.
Tl/DR: A long password comprised of simple words is more secure and easier to remember than a shorter alphanumeric password with symbols and punctuation.
The concept is an over simplification. In a very "random" password, each position could be made up of 26 upper case, 26 lower case, 10 digits and over 20 symbols. That's 82 possible characters at each position. If you want to build a "simple" password that "easy to remember", you'll go all letters in one case, as in the example. In that case, the shorter password is still more secure (albeit the spread isn't huge).
A while ago, sadly don't remember where, I read an article by a password cracker on how passwords are cracked without hash tables. They were pretty clear that the random passwords are the most problematic as they use a variety of techniques to easily guess away many passwords.
Ergo -- since "mynameisjoeblowandiamawesome" is much easier to remember then "(yZ0gN,C" users would create unique passwords more often.
I don't believe it. With a PW manager you can easily create a unique password for every site. The biggest risk if you use any decent password is that weak security on one site will compromise a PW you used on 50 sites.
How many sites do you have PWs at? I started using 1P not too long ago and right now I have 78, with many more not in there yet. What are the odds of someone memorizing the crazy sentence they made for each site without creating a pattern (e.g. thissiteisnamedappleinsiderdotcom)? Low. Before 1P I had 4 passwords: Junk (for dodgy sites I don't trust. Go ahead, lose it.), Low security (trust you a bit, info on site unimportant), Medium security (important data, I trust you), High security (long PW, critical data, high level of trust), plus unique PW for email. Still, lots of reuse and I still needed to keep a dictionary to remind me of what level I bound to what site.
Well it must be true then.
Yeah, you're right, Jack. Reading is over-rated!
Best.
And 1P's auditing features help you figure out which ones are weak passwords, which ones haven't bene changed in a long time (something I typically don't need to worry about since I'm using a unique password for each site but I do change them every 3 years), and their new Watchtower service that lets you know if a site has been compromised. On top of that there are all the other features included.
My only quibbles with 1P are (in order of most to least difficult):
I've requested all these features.
I don't believe it. With a PW manager you can easily create a unique password for every site. The biggest risk if you use any decent password is that weak security on one site will compromise a PW you used on 50 sites.
How many sites do you have PWs at? I started using 1P not too long ago and right now I have 78, with many more not in there yet. What are the odds of someone memorizing the crazy sentence they made for each site without creating a pattern (e.g. thissiteisnamedappleinsiderdotcom)? Low. Before 1P I had 4 passwords: Junk (for dodgy sites I don't trust. Go ahead, lose it.), Low security (trust you a bit, info on site unimportant), Medium security (important data, I trust you), High security (long PW, critical data, high level of trust), plus unique PW for email. Still, lots of reuse and I still needed to keep a dictionary to remind me of what level I bound to what site.
Oh, I absolutely agree that password managers are the future. I was just responding to the 'long non-complex password' model/idea/theory whatever you want to call it. There are loads of problems with it. Users will still game the system. Which is why I stated that I agree with it in principle, but not exactly as presented.
Long, complex, high entropy passwords that are unique for every website are absolutely the best. Getting people to use password managers and getting them to work in every situation and getting the people to not use "1234" or whatever as their 1Password is another.
That was a nice cartoon. I use something similar to make up passwords. I use easy to remember location descriptions or cross streets. For example: PennsylvaniaAveNW@MadisonPlNW. Of course that is not my current address, but you get the idea. I'm sure 1Password is much more secure than my system, however I have not tried it yet, mostly because I think it would probably take a long time to set up and get used to, not sure.