Five days later and no one has been able to debunk this thing? iWalk was dead in the water two hours after spymac released the videos, so is it possible that there's some shred of truth to this thing?
VNC? Possible, but unlikely. Anyone who's used a VNC client knows that the kind of responsiveness shown in the video requires an ultrafast connection and a fast client. The Palm IIIc is a few generations behind in terms of speed and connectivity. Not to mention, though it's been done with OS 9, I've yet to see a VNC software for OS X, palm client or otherwise.
A movie playing on the palm is possible, but the IIIc has a whopping 8MB of memory, not nearly enough to hold a movie, let alone the sheer grunt to play it smoothly.
Okay, so lets assume they did manage to squeeze the movie down to fit on the palm's memory and found a way to make it play smoothly and consistently. How then do you explain the fundamental differences that appear in the OS. Also, wouldn't tapping on the screen or the digitizer interrupt the playback? It's obvious that the OS isn't fully optimized for a screen that small, yet it knows that the screen is small, and acts accordingly, spawning appropriately sized windows, though the calculator goes under the dock.
The differences in the OS also makes the suggestion that they're merely using the IIIc or a touch panel implanted into the IIIc's shell as a monitor for an off camera mac less likely. Though the video is dark at points, it is clear enough to see that there aren't any mystery cables trailing from the device.
In the second movie, we see the System Preferences application opened, with Six icons. Five of which look fairly familar, though their captions are different. The first one is rather odd, though. The icon doesn't look like any you'd find in the current system preferences application, or anywhere else in the OS. When you open up sys prefs in 10.1, the first icon is "desktop," and, perhaps through the power of suggestion, the icon in the second video looks rather like a PDA. The second, the familar firewire harddrive, seems to be captioned "storage." The blue globe of "Network" seems to be "Communications," The Quicktime "Q" is there, the "General" icon seems to be captioned "Interface" and the "Keyboard" icon seems to say "input."
As noted, there are some differences in the way menus work, with certain application functions present in the dock icon, instead of the menu bar. Interestingly, and perhaps logically, the Apple menu lacks a "Get Mac OS X Software" command at the top, and a "logout" command at the bottom.
The menu bar itself has just the Apple Menu, File, Edit, View, Go, and the time, with the Application specific stuff tucked into the Apps' dock icon instead of a separate menu. About, Preferences, Services, Hide Calculator, Hide Others, Show All, Keep in Dock, Show in Finder, and Quit. Keyboard commands in the menus seen fairly natural, since you could presumably connect a keyboard to this thing, or if they were to introduce an eMate style device.
I think if this is real, it's not really an OS X lite, so much as the full OS optimized for a touchscreen workspace, and might portend a tablet formfactor if not a very richly featured PDA. I think it would be quite possible to build a motherboard based around a G3 and very rudimentary graphics acceleration, minimal I/O connections, in a space this small. These chips are primarily used in embedded applications, after all.
A few things bother me about the footage. In the first video, it's obvious that the screen is already active when the person in the video is pressing the power button on the palm. Curious, but not necessarily damning. The whole external 2.5" harddrive thing is certainly peculiar, though such storage would be necessary for a fully functional OS X install. I'd really like to know how they got it to interface, assuming it's real. Also, since this is a handheld, that relies on battery power to function, wouldn't you want to have a battery monitor somewhere prominent on the display?
The whole theory that the person is simply synchronizing their movements with someone running a mac off screen seems especially doubtful since, well, you can't see the cursor. And if you can't see the cursor, how does the person on the other machine know they're hitting their mark?
So am I convinced that this is the real deal? Well, about 99% convinced, and if this does turn out to be a hoax, then I think everyone must agree that it is the most sophisticated hoax every attempted by a mac fanatic. So could it be flash? Um.... perhaps, but it would take a great deal of sophistication to pull off a flash application with that much detail, especially given how responsive it is. Similarly, a skinned version of Palm OS 5 doesn't seem any more likely.
I guess the one thing that really makes me wonder is simply the fact that Apple hasn't asked for this footage to be removed.
Um... Haven't any of you noticed that current Palm OS Apps have keyboard shortcuts in them, too? Shortcuts can be triggered from the handwriting recognition (or in the Palm's case, Graffiti) using a "command stroke" plus the letter. That works in InkWell, too, for those of you who haven't noticed. You don't need a keyboard, just a determination to save time by writing versus poking through menus. I do it all the time on my Visor Prism.
I guess the one thing that really makes me wonder is simply the fact that Apple hasn't asked for this footage to be removed.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its possable that this is just a proof of concept mockup that was done in the eary parts of the design process. This has later been refined for everyday use and nolonger looks like this product for Apple to jump all over.
Its also posable that Apple has discovered that killing any rummor is as good as saying that its a real product.
There aren't much Apple research done in Norway to say the least... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe not for Apple, but there are some companys that make software for Mac OSX. Besides Opera Software, there is at least one company that springs to mind - Trolltech.
If the movies are fake, one of these guys could very well be the culprit that made them. Take a good look at what they make for a living and you'll understand.
I don't believe it the slightest, someone stated that we wanted it to be fake. In my case he couldn't be more wrong, I'd love to see an apple-branded PDA. I'm not saying that it won't happen, I'm just saying that if it does, it would have nothing to do with this video.
My believe is that it's the work of VNC or perhaps just an ordinary small screen LCD in a Palm enclosure hooked up to a mac somewhere. The video is of so bad quality that it could be just about any of those possibilities. The bad quality also makes it hard to point out flaws since it's hard to see any details. It serves it purpose well...
The only thing I learned from this was that in the country of Norway there is a guy calling himself Kjetil with to much spare time...
OK, I'm new to AA as of last week, but I wasn't *born* last week. I think this thread just goes to prove that if you want something very much, you'll believe anything. My credibility? I worked for years at a PDA manufacturer with close ties to Apple, Sony, and Motorola. (No extra points for guessing.) I know how PDA-type devices are designed, tested, and built, and the "thing" on the movie is a nice video exercise but a poor excuse for a prototype.
First, no one would design even a prototype into a competitor's shell (the Palm III). Prototypes are build on breadboards that resemble a motherboard of a full-sized PC with a PDA-sized display attached. No one spends money on designing and building PDA-sized motherboards until a great many other issues are resolved (power requirements, bill of materials costs, display type, illumination type, regulatory agency approval requirements, etc.).
Second, prototypes are expensive and, when real, highly valuable to a company. They don't "just happen" to fall into someone's hands outside their country of origin. Scandinavia is just about the *last* place on earth an early Apple prototype would show up.
Finally, give Apple some credit for knowing how to design user interfaces. This video only shows that the person who put the "show" together knows nothing about human interfaces for handheld devices. For example: why don't the windows completely fill the screen? Why can windows on this device be pushed partially off screen? What's the point of having a frame around a 160x160 pixel window, and why would it need a "resize" button? Why waste valuable screen real estate on a dock with minuscule icons? Why make a calculator with buttons so small they can't be pressed by fingers? And why doesn't the calculator fill the screen? Why does the user need a stylus and menus to launch basic apps?
Ask any engineer who's worked on any kind of hand-held device - this "prototype" would be a waste of their time, let alone yours.
BTW, for those of you complaining about how dark the video is, try hitting cmd-K in Quicktime. This brings up the video controls and you can adjust things using left and right arrow keys and change the current parameter using the up and down keys. I'd suggest increasing the brightness a lot (like to max) and decreasing the contrast (to about a third). You get far more detail from the video, including a really good look at the room that the video is taken in, including lots of electronic equipment (oscilloscope, soldering iron, etc.) a nice G4 tower and ASD CRT, a keyboard, a poster of Che Gaverra (sp?) maybe and a good look at the hands of the person holding this thing.
While there does seem to be a cable at the bottom, it appears to be more like an IDE ribbon cable running between the Palm and the HD. Based on the movement of the unit and the person with it, it seems hard to believe that this thing actually has a cable running to it from another machine.
Does it look to anyone else like his "stylus" is a ballpoint pen?
The white border around the screen bugs me a bit too, as if it is masking the little scroll bars on the edges of PalmVNC. I don't know how you could get video that smooth out of VNC though, especially on a Palm.
Quite simply, I'm stumped. I don't really believe it's real, but I can't think of ways to do everything that I see in the videos, nor can I imagine anyone going to all the trouble if it's a fake. Quite fun though!
All I'll say is that is the most convincing thing I have ever seen for "Mac OS X Lite" or whatever you want to call it. I'm not saying I don't think it's fake--it more than likely is--I'm just saying it's the most impressive hoax I've ever seen.
--Alexis
P.S. And to the guy that said the motions of the stylus are off a little in timing--you're right...but have you ever used a Palm OS powered PDA? The timing is always a bit off..at least for me. Nothing's perfect for a touch-screen and stylus. Ever.
<strong>Second, prototypes are expensive and, when real, highly valuable to a company. They don't "just happen" to fall into someone's hands outside their country of origin. Scandinavia is just about the *last* place on earth an early Apple prototype would show up.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey, not so fast here. I saw a very early prototype of the TiBook here in Denmark.
What about this: Take a portable 2,5 portable TV, dig out the electronics of a HD and a Palm and refit the TV into the two cases (or reuse the LCD of the Palm). Record the boot up on video and send it to the TV via a transmitter. Must be quite simple if you have the hardware.
[quote]Second, prototypes are expensive and, when real, highly valuable to a company. They don't "just happen" to fall into someone's hands outside their country of origin. Scandinavia is just about the *last* place on earth an early Apple prototype would show up.<hr></blockquote>
yeah...and you're an alien from planet 9. please don't be so loud when you have no clue what you're talking about. there is always stuff wandering around in europe from our most beloved fruit company. and i'm not talkin' about the specs from the next ibook or so. real prototypes. hardware that'll never see the production lines.
Then how in god's name does it run everything so fast, if it has so little optimization they haven't bothered to remove keyboard shortcuts?
Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>
While I too have come to the conclusion that this isn't real (yet I fully admit I can't figure out how its done) Removing keyboard shortcuts would be an 'after thought' since they are simply part of the NIB and aren't really using any CPU.
I remain sceptical, but it is very convincing for several reasons:
? It doesn't necessarily have the most stylish case. I've seen some other pictures of Apple prototype hardware and it seems they like to stick it in whatever they can get their grubby paws on.
? Keyboard shortcuts? Hardly. I remember during the Inkwell demo at WWDC Steve demonstrated how you can use strokes to represent the command, option and shift key and it will represent it as typing the keyboard shortcut.
? There were a lot of little differences from Mac OS X 10.1. Firstly, it contained a lot of elements from jaguar, it's own System Preferences application, slightly redesigned menus etc (the application menus were in the dock, nice touch). The dock seemed to fit well on such a low resolution screen.
The one main reason why I remain sceptical of it is: how is Apple going to design a PDA which has enough juice to power a cut down version of OS X. No wait, what am I thinking - it's Apple we're talking about here
Anyway, IMHO if it's a hoax - it's a damn good hoax, if it's real - Apple going to have one kick ass PDA this summer <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
I'm pretty sure it's just a really nice hack, where someone managed to get OSX to diplay on the screen and use the touch screen as an input device for the mac that's actually running it.
Comments
<strong><a href="http://www.btinternet.com/~harakan/PalmVNC/"; target="_blank">PalmVNC</a>
I think the mystery just got solved...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I realise people want this to be a fake, but you'll need to try harder.
VNC won't show a bootup, because it isn't running until after bootup.
<strong>
I realise people want this to be a fake, but you'll need to try harder.
VNC won't show a bootup, because it isn't running until after bootup.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not showing another Mac booting - it wouldn't have altered menus, dock and so on then.
It could be showing a movie from another machine though.
[ 06-25-2002: Message edited by: JLL ]</p>
<strong>
It's not showing another Mac booting - it wouldn't have altered menus, dock and so on then.
It could be showing a movie from another machine though.
[ 06-25-2002: Message edited by: JLL ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Possible, but unlikely. To show video over VNC would need a high speed connection. Palm IIIs don't have high speed serial ports.
My guess is it's running a skinned PalmOS5, or it genuinely is a real Apple prototype.
VNC? Possible, but unlikely. Anyone who's used a VNC client knows that the kind of responsiveness shown in the video requires an ultrafast connection and a fast client. The Palm IIIc is a few generations behind in terms of speed and connectivity. Not to mention, though it's been done with OS 9, I've yet to see a VNC software for OS X, palm client or otherwise.
A movie playing on the palm is possible, but the IIIc has a whopping 8MB of memory, not nearly enough to hold a movie, let alone the sheer grunt to play it smoothly.
Okay, so lets assume they did manage to squeeze the movie down to fit on the palm's memory and found a way to make it play smoothly and consistently. How then do you explain the fundamental differences that appear in the OS. Also, wouldn't tapping on the screen or the digitizer interrupt the playback? It's obvious that the OS isn't fully optimized for a screen that small, yet it knows that the screen is small, and acts accordingly, spawning appropriately sized windows, though the calculator goes under the dock.
The differences in the OS also makes the suggestion that they're merely using the IIIc or a touch panel implanted into the IIIc's shell as a monitor for an off camera mac less likely. Though the video is dark at points, it is clear enough to see that there aren't any mystery cables trailing from the device.
In the second movie, we see the System Preferences application opened, with Six icons. Five of which look fairly familar, though their captions are different. The first one is rather odd, though. The icon doesn't look like any you'd find in the current system preferences application, or anywhere else in the OS. When you open up sys prefs in 10.1, the first icon is "desktop," and, perhaps through the power of suggestion, the icon in the second video looks rather like a PDA. The second, the familar firewire harddrive, seems to be captioned "storage." The blue globe of "Network" seems to be "Communications," The Quicktime "Q" is there, the "General" icon seems to be captioned "Interface" and the "Keyboard" icon seems to say "input."
As noted, there are some differences in the way menus work, with certain application functions present in the dock icon, instead of the menu bar. Interestingly, and perhaps logically, the Apple menu lacks a "Get Mac OS X Software" command at the top, and a "logout" command at the bottom.
The menu bar itself has just the Apple Menu, File, Edit, View, Go, and the time, with the Application specific stuff tucked into the Apps' dock icon instead of a separate menu. About, Preferences, Services, Hide Calculator, Hide Others, Show All, Keep in Dock, Show in Finder, and Quit. Keyboard commands in the menus seen fairly natural, since you could presumably connect a keyboard to this thing, or if they were to introduce an eMate style device.
I think if this is real, it's not really an OS X lite, so much as the full OS optimized for a touchscreen workspace, and might portend a tablet formfactor if not a very richly featured PDA. I think it would be quite possible to build a motherboard based around a G3 and very rudimentary graphics acceleration, minimal I/O connections, in a space this small. These chips are primarily used in embedded applications, after all.
A few things bother me about the footage. In the first video, it's obvious that the screen is already active when the person in the video is pressing the power button on the palm. Curious, but not necessarily damning. The whole external 2.5" harddrive thing is certainly peculiar, though such storage would be necessary for a fully functional OS X install. I'd really like to know how they got it to interface, assuming it's real. Also, since this is a handheld, that relies on battery power to function, wouldn't you want to have a battery monitor somewhere prominent on the display?
The whole theory that the person is simply synchronizing their movements with someone running a mac off screen seems especially doubtful since, well, you can't see the cursor. And if you can't see the cursor, how does the person on the other machine know they're hitting their mark?
So am I convinced that this is the real deal? Well, about 99% convinced, and if this does turn out to be a hoax, then I think everyone must agree that it is the most sophisticated hoax every attempted by a mac fanatic. So could it be flash? Um.... perhaps, but it would take a great deal of sophistication to pull off a flash application with that much detail, especially given how responsive it is. Similarly, a skinned version of Palm OS 5 doesn't seem any more likely.
I guess the one thing that really makes me wonder is simply the fact that Apple hasn't asked for this footage to be removed.
something to ponder, anyway.
ciao,
michael
[ 06-25-2002: Message edited by: scadboy ]</p>
<strong>
I guess the one thing that really makes me wonder is simply the fact that Apple hasn't asked for this footage to be removed.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its possable that this is just a proof of concept mockup that was done in the eary parts of the design process. This has later been refined for everyday use and nolonger looks like this product for Apple to jump all over.
Its also posable that Apple has discovered that killing any rummor is as good as saying that its a real product.
Later
Steve
<strong>
There aren't much Apple research done in Norway to say the least... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe not for Apple, but there are some companys that make software for Mac OSX. Besides Opera Software, there is at least one company that springs to mind - Trolltech.
If the movies are fake, one of these guys could very well be the culprit that made them. Take a good look at what they make for a living and you'll understand.
<a href="http://www.trolltech.com"; target="_blank">http://www.trolltech.com</a>;
My believe is that it's the work of VNC or perhaps just an ordinary small screen LCD in a Palm enclosure hooked up to a mac somewhere. The video is of so bad quality that it could be just about any of those possibilities. The bad quality also makes it hard to point out flaws since it's hard to see any details. It serves it purpose well...
The only thing I learned from this was that in the country of Norway there is a guy calling himself Kjetil with to much spare time...
First, no one would design even a prototype into a competitor's shell (the Palm III). Prototypes are build on breadboards that resemble a motherboard of a full-sized PC with a PDA-sized display attached. No one spends money on designing and building PDA-sized motherboards until a great many other issues are resolved (power requirements, bill of materials costs, display type, illumination type, regulatory agency approval requirements, etc.).
Second, prototypes are expensive and, when real, highly valuable to a company. They don't "just happen" to fall into someone's hands outside their country of origin. Scandinavia is just about the *last* place on earth an early Apple prototype would show up.
Finally, give Apple some credit for knowing how to design user interfaces. This video only shows that the person who put the "show" together knows nothing about human interfaces for handheld devices. For example: why don't the windows completely fill the screen? Why can windows on this device be pushed partially off screen? What's the point of having a frame around a 160x160 pixel window, and why would it need a "resize" button? Why waste valuable screen real estate on a dock with minuscule icons? Why make a calculator with buttons so small they can't be pressed by fingers? And why doesn't the calculator fill the screen? Why does the user need a stylus and menus to launch basic apps?
Ask any engineer who's worked on any kind of hand-held device - this "prototype" would be a waste of their time, let alone yours.
While there does seem to be a cable at the bottom, it appears to be more like an IDE ribbon cable running between the Palm and the HD. Based on the movement of the unit and the person with it, it seems hard to believe that this thing actually has a cable running to it from another machine.
Does it look to anyone else like his "stylus" is a ballpoint pen?
The white border around the screen bugs me a bit too, as if it is masking the little scroll bars on the edges of PalmVNC. I don't know how you could get video that smooth out of VNC though, especially on a Palm.
Quite simply, I'm stumped. I don't really believe it's real, but I can't think of ways to do everything that I see in the videos, nor can I imagine anyone going to all the trouble if it's a fake. Quite fun though!
--Alexis
P.S. And to the guy that said the motions of the stylus are off a little in timing--you're right...but have you ever used a Palm OS powered PDA? The timing is always a bit off..at least for me. Nothing's perfect for a touch-screen and stylus. Ever.
<strong>Second, prototypes are expensive and, when real, highly valuable to a company. They don't "just happen" to fall into someone's hands outside their country of origin. Scandinavia is just about the *last* place on earth an early Apple prototype would show up.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey, not so fast here. I saw a very early prototype of the TiBook here in Denmark.
yeah...and you're an alien from planet 9. please don't be so loud when you have no clue what you're talking about. there is always stuff wandering around in europe from our most beloved fruit company. and i'm not talkin' about the specs from the next ibook or so. real prototypes. hardware that'll never see the production lines.
what do i know? well, i know who i know...
X Lite is from the Mac OS X source.
Then how in god's name does it run everything so fast, if it has so little optimization they haven't bothered to remove keyboard shortcuts?
Barto
<strong>Keyboard Shotcuts?
X Lite is from the Mac OS X source.
Then how in god's name does it run everything so fast, if it has so little optimization they haven't bothered to remove keyboard shortcuts?
Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's Jaguar and it's compiled in GCC3.
<strong>Keyboard Shotcuts?
X Lite is from the Mac OS X source.
Then how in god's name does it run everything so fast, if it has so little optimization they haven't bothered to remove keyboard shortcuts?
Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>
While I too have come to the conclusion that this isn't real (yet I fully admit I can't figure out how its done) Removing keyboard shortcuts would be an 'after thought' since they are simply part of the NIB and aren't really using any CPU.
? It doesn't necessarily have the most stylish case. I've seen some other pictures of Apple prototype hardware and it seems they like to stick it in whatever they can get their grubby paws on.
? Keyboard shortcuts? Hardly. I remember during the Inkwell demo at WWDC Steve demonstrated how you can use strokes to represent the command, option and shift key and it will represent it as typing the keyboard shortcut.
? There were a lot of little differences from Mac OS X 10.1. Firstly, it contained a lot of elements from jaguar, it's own System Preferences application, slightly redesigned menus etc (the application menus were in the dock, nice touch). The dock seemed to fit well on such a low resolution screen.
The one main reason why I remain sceptical of it is: how is Apple going to design a PDA which has enough juice to power a cut down version of OS X. No wait, what am I thinking - it's Apple we're talking about here
Anyway, IMHO if it's a hoax - it's a damn good hoax, if it's real - Apple going to have one kick ass PDA this summer <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
Misleading, but pretty damn cool anyway.