Apple Pay's success has rivals scrambling to catch up, could make PayPal an acquisition target

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  • Reply 61 of 146
    mpantonempantone Posts: 2,104member

    SolipsismY is correct.

     

    Apple only enables Apple Pay on NFC-equipped devices because the Apple Pay Secure Element resides on the NFC chip. Note that the latest iPads have the NFC chip, but no antenna, so no NFC can be performed on these devices. However, Apple Pay is available for online purchases on these newer iPads since there is a Secure Element present for Apple Pay.

     

    Older devices like the iPhone 5s don't have the NFC chip, thus no Secure Element for Apple Pay.

  • Reply 62 of 146
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    cali wrote: »
    Besides security there's tons of other benefits like a credit limit above $20.

    What's the $20 credit limit?
  • Reply 63 of 146
    mac_128mac_128 Posts: 3,454member

    I'm so over Pay Pal. They continually take my bank transfers into my account and hold them for days before I can use them, earning interest on my money that my bank has already transferred to them. They claim it's a security feature and there's nothing they can do to override it.

     

    It would take a MAJOR overhaul to make PayPal anywhere near as competitive as ?Pay. 

  • Reply 64 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    The Apple Watch will enable Apple Pay on iPhone 5, 5C and 5S -- so that could greatly increase the Apple Pay-capable iPhone population.

    That's not accurate. There is no NFC on the iPhone 5, 5C or 5S so it will not ENABLE ?Pay on those devices.

    Those devices, however, can be used to setup ?Pay on ?Watch, which you will authenticate via a PIN every time you place it on your wrist.

    Isn't that what I said?

    You cannot do Apple Pay solely on any iPhone except an iPhone 6 and an iPhone 6 plus.

    Earlier iPhones no not have NFC or the Secure Element in the NFC Chip.

    The Apple Watch has a NFC Chip with a Secure Element. When paired with an iPhone 5 or Later, Apple Watch can make Apple Pay payments!

    Apple Pay is compatible with these devices.

    Apple Watch
    Paired only with iPhone 5, iPhone 5c, iPhone 5s, iPhone 6, or iPhone 6 Plus.

    http://www.apple.com/apple-pay/
  • Reply 65 of 146
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    Isn't that what I said?

    You cannot do Apple Pay solely on any iPhone except an iPhone 6 and an iPhone 6 plus.

    Earlier iPhones no not have NFC or the Secure Element in the NFC Chip.

    The Apple Watch has a NFC Chip with a Secure Element. When paired with an iPhone 5 or Later, Apple Watch can make Apple Pay payments!
    http://www.apple.com/apple-pay/

    You said "The Apple Watch will enable Apple Pay on iPhone 5, 5C and 5S." Again, not accurate. ?Pay will be on ?Watch, not on those iPhone's mentioned.

    A more correct statement would be the stated iPhones will help facilitate, via the camera, onscreen keyboard, BT, WiFi/Cellular, etc., the ability to get the representational card number and token from the participating banks to place on the secure element of ?Watch. After that the iPhone doesn't even need to be present for ?Watch to make a payment via ?Pay and those iPhones will never be able to make ?Pay payments due to the lack of requisite HW for ?Pay.
  • Reply 66 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    Isn't that what I said?

    You cannot do Apple Pay solely on any iPhone except an iPhone 6 and an iPhone 6 plus.

    Earlier iPhones no not have NFC or the Secure Element in the NFC Chip.

    The Apple Watch has a NFC Chip with a Secure Element. When paired with an iPhone 5 or Later, Apple Watch can make Apple Pay payments!
    http://www.apple.com/apple-pay/

    You said "The Apple Watch will enable Apple Pay on iPhone 5, 5C and 5S." Again, not accurate. ?Pay will be on ?Watch, not on those iPhone's mentioned.

    You are better than that kind of parsing!

    A more correct statement would be the stated iPhones will help facilitate, via the camera, onscreen keyboard, BT, WiFi/Cellular, etc., the ability to get the representational card number and token from the participating banks to place on the secure element of ?Watch. After that the iPhone doesn't even need to be present for ?Watch to make a payment via ?Pay

    Citation?

    AFAICT, the AppleWallet app on the iPhone will need to communicate with the Apple Watch for each Apple Pay transaction.

    and those iPhones will never be able to make ?Pay payments due to the lack of requisite HW for ?Pay.
  • Reply 67 of 146
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    You are better than that kind of parsing!

    I don't know how I can be anymore clear, and I would have expected you, of all people, to know that those iPhones will never have ?Pay on them.
  • Reply 68 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    You are better than that kind of parsing!

    I don't know how I can be anymore clear, and I would have expected you, of all people, to know that those iPhones will never have ?Pay on them.

    I edited/updated my last response -- please re-read!


    Here'e the deal?

    Can a standalone iPhone 5, 5C or 5S do Apple Pay? No! (only the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus)

    Can an Apple Watch do Apple Pay without an attendant iPhone? No!

    Can an Apple Watch do Apple Pay with an attendant iPhone 5, 5C or 5S? Yes!

    Does the Apple Watch enable Apple Pay using an iPhone 5, 5C or 5S? Yes!
  • Reply 69 of 146
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    Can an Apple Watch do Apple Pay with an attendant iPhone 5, 5C or 5S?

    Sort of. ?Watch needs an iPhone 5 or newer iPhone to setup ?Pay initially, but so far there is no indication that the iPhone would have be in attendance and tethered to ?Watch when making a payment.
    Does the Apple Watch enable Apple Pay using an iPhone 5, 5C or 5S?

    Sort of. There is no evidence to support that using an iPhone after ?Pay has been set up on ?Watch is required. Apple may input a timed-based fail safe that ?Watch needs to be tethered back with an authenticated (i.e.: Touch ID or PIN) iPhone within a certain timeframe, or ?Pay on ?Watch will cease to function, but I don't expect that to happen.
  • Reply 70 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    Can an Apple Watch do Apple Pay with an attendant iPhone 5, 5C or 5S?

    Sort of. ?Watch needs an iPhone 5 or newer iPhone to setup ?Pay initially, but so far there is no indication that the iPhone would have be in attendance and tethered to ?Watch when making a payment.
    Does the Apple Watch enable Apple Pay using an iPhone 5, 5C or 5S?

    Sort of. There is no evidence to support that using an iPhone after ?Pay has been set up on ?Watch is required. Apple may input a timed-based fail safe that ?Watch needs to be tethered back with an authenticated (i.e.: Touch ID or PIN) iPhone within a certain timeframe, or ?Pay on ?Watch will cease to function, but I don't expect that to happen.

    OK, It's my nap time now -- been up since !:00 AM ...

    I haven't paid much attention to Apple Pay, specifically, on the Apple Watch. I'll review the Developer Docs.

    But here's the thing:
    • Apple Pay on the iPhone 6 and 6 Pus allows you to select from a number of credit cards held in the Apple Wallet app on the iPhone -- for each transaction.
    • From what I've seen, Apple Pay on the Apple Watch provides the same capability.
    • App (and app data) storage on the Apple Watch is quite limited and ephemeral * -- they use Watch<-->iPhone data exchange instead
    • While, the Apple Watch could conceivable store all the token-generation code, tokens and logs on the Watch -- i think it doesn't in normal operation.
    • Even so, to select among available credit cards (as demoed) they show the image of the card on the watch -- I doubt that those images are stored on the Apple Watch

    For example if you show a list of, say, 6 items in a table -- each element in the list has its own controller (a row controller) on the iPhone.

    On the Watch, when you scroll the table or tap a table row, every Watch action initiates a request and response communication with the iPhone -- e.g, you tapped this row, I assume you want to do something (even as simple as highlighting).

    The state is maintained in the iPhone then the Watch Display is updated to reflect that.

    I've gotta believe that this is similar to the process Apple uses when selecting a different credit card to be used for a different merchant or purchase.

    I think, at the very least, if the iPhone is N/A -- you cannot select a different card!

    I suspect, if the iPhone is N/A -- you cannot generate a transaction token.
  • Reply 71 of 146
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    I think, at the very least, if the iPhone is N/A -- you cannot select a different card!

    400

    I suspect, if the iPhone is N/A -- you cannot generate a transaction token.

    What's your reasoning for this? What HW in the iPhone 5 would be used for token generation?
  • Reply 72 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    I suspect, if the iPhone is N/A -- you cannot generate a transaction token.

    What's your reasoning for this? What HW in the iPhone 5 would be used for token generation?

    The flash storage and RAM.memory to contain the code and the computer power to run the algorithm.

    AIR, the token has some encoding or some dependency on location so Location Services could also be involved.

    It could be different for some Apple Watch Apple apps and for Apple Pay specifically -- but, currently developers can only use the watch as a dumb I/O device -- an input detector and an output display.

    It's hard to get any definitive answers because the Apple engineers will not discuss unreleased products.
  • Reply 73 of 146
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    The flash storage and RAM.memory to contain the code and the computer power to run the algorithm.

    […]

    It's hard to get any definitive answers because the Apple engineers will not discuss unreleased products.

    Based on the available information there is plenty of evidence for us to deduce that the iPhone 5 will never store this data because there is no secure element. If the iPhone 6 series and ?Watch didn't supply enough data to come to that conclusion, the new iPads with an NFC chip and ?Pay support, but no NFC antenna, should lead you to conclude the secure element is on the NFC chip.
  • Reply 74 of 146
    paul94544paul94544 Posts: 1,027member
    If either Samesong or Scroogle buys Paypal I will delete my PayPal account
  • Reply 75 of 146
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

     



    ?Pay has no security benefits over the existing payment methods so I suspect only the ostentatious will bother.


     

    Liar. It has significant benefits over ALL other payment systems including Softcard, Google Wallet and the crappiest of them all, PayPal. This has all been explained here on AI multiple times. Since I'm 100% certain you've seen the explanations, I can only assume you're being intentionally obtuse and lying to troll (as usual).

     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

     

    Yes, I am serious.  What security benefit does touch ID have over entering a PIN for a transaction?  The limit only applies to tap-to-pay without a PIN - there is no limit when using a PIN.

     

    Apple might conquer Europe, but I doubt it.  On Black Friday, only 5% of iPhone 6/+ users who technically could have used ?Pay to make a purchase actually did so.


     

     

    More crap from you-know who.

     

    Touch ID isn't the primary security measure for Apple Pay. It's the fact it uses the latest tokenization technology by EMVco. Touch ID is just the icing on the cake for ADDITIONAL security and convenience.

     

    Your Black Friday reference is idiotic. Why not bring out the stats by IBM who found this year iOS users outspent Android users in online shopping by a factor of 4X (last year it was 5X, so it seems Android has made a little progress in one year).

     

    If an online retailer was looking to get into mobile payment processing (or selling goods to mobile users), who'd be stupid enough to start out with the platform where nobody is spending any money (Android)? They'll offer their products/services for iOS first (as any smart business person would) and if successful then consider expanding to other platforms.

     

    Or if they decide to support both platforms, they'll offer their promotions and incentives to the people who spend more money (iOS users). Nobody wants to waste time & money chasing after potential customers who don't buy anything.

  • Reply 76 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    The flash storage and RAM.memory to contain the code and the computer power to run the algorithm.

    […]

    It's hard to get any definitive answers because the Apple engineers will not discuss unreleased products.

    Based on the available information there is plenty of evidence for us to deduce that the iPhone 5 will never store this data because there is no secure element. If the iPhone 6 series and ?Watch didn't supply enough data to come to that conclusion, the new iPads with an NFC chip and ?Pay support, but no NFC antenna, should lead you to conclude the secure element is on the NFC chip.

    No question -- the Secure Element is in the NFC Chip on the Apple Watch -- and in any iDevice that has an NFC Chip!

    My questions are what is in the Secure Element, how does it get there, and what is done with it? I don't think we'll ever know for security reasons.

    Consider Apple Pay running standalone on the iPhone 6:
    1. Something in the Secure Element (likely, a seed), is retrieved by the iPhone
    2. Based on the seed, some algorithm is executed on the iPhone 6 that creates a time-limited, secure a 1-time transaction token
    3. Likely this token is logged in the iPhone 6 storage or in the secure element
    4. Likely, the token is stored in the iPhone 6 Secure Element to be used by the iPhone app directing the NFC Chip to complete or abandon the transaction
    5. Likely, the transaction completion is logged in the iPhone 6 storage or in the secure element


    Now, consider how this process might take place on an Apple Watch using an iPhone 5.

    The same process could be easily accomplished by:
    1. The iPhone app retrieves the seed from the Apple Watch
    2. Based on the seed, some algorithm is executed on the iPhone 5 that creates a time-limited, secure a 1-time transaction token
    3. Likely this token is logged in the iPhone 5 storage or in the secure element
    4. Likely, the token is stored in the Apple Watch Secure Element to be used by the Apple Watch app directing the NFC Chip to complete or abandon the transaction
    5. Likely, the transaction completion is logged in the iPhone 5 storage or in the secure element

    The only real difference is in step 4 -- where the app that transmits the token and completes the transaction is run on the iPhone or the Apple Watch.

    This makes a lot of sense because:
    • the heavy lifting is done on the iPhone with more power and longer battery life
    • most of the code is common to the iPhone 6 series and the iPhone 5 series
    • Occam's Razor
    • there is little security risk in passing the token (and completion) between the Apple Watch because of encryption and the fact it is perishable -- no greater risk than exchanging the token (and completion) with the NFC POST terminal
    • I suspect the passing the seed is the greatest exposure -- but that can be mitigated in several ways *

    * Handshake data encoded within the transaction completion is used to dynamically update the seed; the seed is partially transmitted in several transmissions separated by time ...


    Currently, 3rd-party developers can not build apps that run on the Watch -- they only run on the iPhone using the Apple Watch as a dumb i/O device.

    It could be that Apple Pay runs entirely on the Apple Watch ... but logic tells me otherwise.

    Likely, we'll never know!
  • Reply 77 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    Can an Apple Watch do Apple Pay with an attendant iPhone 5, 5C or 5S?

    Sort of. ?Watch needs an iPhone 5 or newer iPhone to setup ?Pay initially, but so far there is no indication that the iPhone would have be in attendance and tethered to ?Watch when making a payment.
    Does the Apple Watch enable Apple Pay using an iPhone 5, 5C or 5S?

    Sort of. There is no evidence to support that using an iPhone after ?Pay has been set up on ?Watch is required. Apple may input a timed-based fail safe that ?Watch needs to be tethered back with an authenticated (i.e.: Touch ID or PIN) iPhone within a certain timeframe, or ?Pay on ?Watch will cease to function, but I don't expect that to happen.

    solipsismy wrote: »
    I think, at the very least, if the iPhone is N/A -- you cannot select a different card!



    400

    I suspect, if the iPhone is N/A -- you cannot generate a transaction token.

    What's your reasoning for this? What HW in the iPhone 5 would be used for token generation?

    Your contention is that There is no evidence to support that using an iPhone after ?Pay has been set up on ?Watch is required..

    If that is true, then for Apple Watch Apple Pay -- all the iPhone is used for is a login screen/pin entry for the watch.

    According to what I can determine, the Apple Watch has its own login app/pin entry screen -- and just like the iPhone, it is a Apple Watch user setup option,

    If that is the case, then why would Apple Watch Apple Pay need an attendant iPhone at all?

    Then this:

    400

    This app looks very similar to an app I am writing on Apple Watch. What is displayed on the watch is a list (see WKInterfaceTable, below) similar to a UITableView on iOS.

    400


    Whenever a row is selected on the Apple Watch, a method is invoked in the WatchKit Extension running on the attendant iPhone. State is maintained by the WatchKit Extension running on the attendant iPhone.

    Let me repeat that:

    Whenever a row is selected on the Apple Watch, a method is invoked in the WatchKit Extension running on the attendant iPhone. State is maintained by the WatchKit Extension running on the attendant iPhone.

    The WatchKit Extension running on the attendant iPhone. can do things like:
    • delete or insert a row (or rows)
    • scroll to a specific row (or first/last row)
    • send back to the Apple Watch different content to be displayed in that particular row
    • send back to the Apple Watch an entire new list (like a drill down)
    • do nothing

    The WatchKit Extension running on the attendant iPhone. can use any of the radios in the iPhone to talk to the web, iBeacons, local WiFi ...


    In my app the iPhone Extension increments the quantity to the left of the row -- and returns that to the Apple Watch for redisplay,

    Here's a trace, showing what happens on the iPhone when you tap a row on the Apple Watch:

    1000


    The dialog between the Watch portion of the app and the iPhone Extension portion of the app is necessary to for the entire app to perform its job!


    As I've said in prior posts, IDK, if this is how Apple Pay is implemented on the Apple Watch -- but it seems logical that it is -- for several reasons that I noted.


    WKInterfaceTable

    Of all of the concepts carried over from iOS, tables are perhaps the most-changed.

    UITableView is the backbone of iPhone applications. As such, they've evolved significant complexity to handle the demands of applications with a lot of data that needs to be displayed in many different ways. WKInterfaceTable, by comparison, seems marginal by comparison.

    WatchKit tables do not have sections or headers, or footers, or editing, or searching, or data sources, or delegates. Rows are pre-populated at WKInterfaceController -willActivate, with each row specifying its own row controller (an NSObject subclass with IBOutlets). WKInterfaceController can respond to table interactions either with the table:didSelectrowAtIndex: delegate method, or using the aforementioned Target-Action method.

    It may not seem like much, but this approach is well-suited for the watch, and is a lot more straightforward than on iOS.

    http://www.appstycoons.com/blog-watchkit
     
  • Reply 78 of 146
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    If that is the case, then why would Apple Watch Apple Pay need an attendant iPhone at all?

    This is just getting ridiculous now. One last time!

    Think about the communication and input options on ?Watch. How will ?Watch communicate with your bank? Directly, it can't. It can use NFC at a retailer which can than send the representational card number and tokento the bank to get a verification for the payment, but that's after that data is on the secure element of the NFC chip on ?Watch.

    How are you going to get that data from the bank in the first place? There is no WiFi or Cellular. You can't even input the card info quickly with ?Watch because there is no camera and only a small display with a digital crown. All this means is the BT tether to the iPhone 5 and up will be used as an extension of ?Watch for both inputting the card information and sending that card info to your bank to get the new data that via the iPhone that will then be stored in ?Watch securely.

    Then this:

    400

    This app looks very similar to an app I am writing on Apple Watch. What is displayed on the watch is a list (see WKInterfaceTable, below) similar to a UITableView on iOS.

    400

    Now you've lost me completely. A menu selection app for a restaurant is not even in the same category of the Passbook app Apple has had for years and recently expanded with the emergence of ?Pay.


    I think you're over complicating this simple and logical solution.
  • Reply 79 of 146
    mpantone wrote: »
    SolipsismY is correct.

    Apple only enables Apple Pay on NFC-equipped devices because the Apple Pay Secure Element resides on the NFC chip. Note that the latest iPads have the NFC chip, but no antenna, so no NFC can be performed on these devices. However, Apple Pay is available for online purchases on these newer iPads since there is a Secure Element present for Apple Pay.

    Older devices like the iPhone 5s don't have the NFC chip, thus no Secure Element for Apple Pay.

    What is the Secure Element, anyway? Has one been cracked open and studied? Is it a random word from a dictionary? A water droplet? An atomic-scale crystalline anomaly? Maybe it's a JJ Abrams "mystery box",,,
  • Reply 80 of 146
    As an investor in Apple, Visa and Gemalto, I can tell you that there is nothing in Apple Pay that can't be replicated by another syste . Secure elements and tokenisation is used already by other players. Apple Pay has merely put it all together. And as for security, some if the banks are reporting much higher levels of fraud via Apple Pay because fraudsters are loading up stolen card numbers into Apple Pay and this us not getting blocked!
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