Apple Pay's success has rivals scrambling to catch up, could make PayPal an acquisition target

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  • Reply 81 of 146
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    What is the Secure Element, anyway? Has one been cracked open and studied? Is it a random word from a dictionary? A water droplet? An atomic-scale crystalline anomaly? Maybe it's a JJ Abrams "mystery box",,,

    Like the secure enclave is on the Touch ID chip, the secure element is part of the NFC chip, which supplies both secure storage and secure transmission of the stored data supplied to each device for each card from each bank.
  • Reply 82 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    Like the secure enclave for Touch ID, it's a part of the NFC chip that supplies both secure storage and transmission to other areas of the device.

    I'd rather it was something completely nuts, like a string of squirrel DNA in a nanoscale tumbler.
  • Reply 83 of 146
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    I'd rather it was something completely nuts, like a string of squirrel DNA in a nanoscale tumbler.

    Squirrel shit is completely nuts as well you know :lol:
  • Reply 84 of 146
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

    How are Apple Pay and Paypal competitors? 


    The article does not say or imply are competitors.

  • Reply 85 of 146
    dasanman69 wrote: »
    Squirrel shit is completely nuts as well you know :lol:

    LMAO!

    "You wanna get nuts?! Let's get nuts!" —Michael Keaton as Batman
  • Reply 86 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    If that is the case, then why would Apple Watch Apple Pay need an attendant iPhone at all?

    This is just getting ridiculous now. One last time!

    Think about the communication and input options on ?Watch. How will ?Watch communicate with your bank? Directly, it can't. It can use NFC at a retailer which can than send the representational card number and tokento the bank to get a verification for the payment, but that's after that data is on the secure element of the NFC chip on ?Watch.

    How are you going to get that data from the bank in the first place? There is no WiFi or Cellular. You can't even input the card info quickly with ?Watch because there is no camera and only a small display with a digital crown. All this means is the BT tether to the iPhone 5 and up will be used as an extension of ?Watch for both inputting the card information and sending that card info to your bank to get the new data that via the iPhone that will then be stored in ?Watch securely.

    I understand that and never challenged it! Why are you creating conflict when none exists?

    Then this:

    400

    This app looks very similar to an app I am writing on Apple Watch. What is displayed on the watch is a list (see WKInterfaceTable, below) similar to a UITableView on iOS.

    400

    Now you've lost me completely. A menu selection app for a restaurant is not even in the same category of the Passbook app Apple has had for years and recently expanded with the emergence of ?Pay.


    I think you're over complicating this simple and logical solution.

    They're both rows in a TableView -- Shit, if it is necessary to convince you I can display images in my Apple Watch TableView and make it look exactly like the PassBook app you provided ... and the interaction between watch and phone would be exactly as described in my post.

    Hey, you're an Apple iOS developer. why don't you do some research about WatchKit (especially Apple Pay, and WKInterfaceTable) and see what you can find to support your contention that the iPhone doesn't participate in Apple Watch Apple Pay except when you setup credit cards.

    FWIW, you're showing a Apple Watch PassBook app to select coupons/loyalty cards -- not an Apple Watch Apple Pay transaction -- big difference.

    1000



    Are you suggesting that all the PassBook data and images are permanently stored on the watch, once it is setup by the iPhone? -- possibly 10s of passes, coupons, loyalty cards, credit cards debit cards ...

    Or, maybe you are suggesting the just the Apple Watch device token for, say, 5-10 credit/cards ...

    In either case, how does a user, out and about, switch among a Visa card to pay at Walgreens, then a Macy's card to pay at Macy's, then Master Card to pay for Dinner, then an AMEX card at the bar ...

    C'mon -- the user has an iPhone and most likely it is on his person ... Why burden the limited Apple Watch with storing all this cruft -- when it can invoke the iPhone app to handle it in a breeze ... It takes more time to type this sentence, than it takes to bring up a PassBook (Table selection) app on the iPhone, populate the corresponding watch table, recognize the user's watch selection and display the selected card logo on the watch for Apple Pay use.

    In addition, the iPhone can be authorized to recognize iBeacons to notify the watch of nearby specials, loyalty card deals ... something the watch can;t do by itself.
  • Reply 87 of 146
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    I understand that and never challenged it! Why are you creating conflict when none exists?

    It sure seems like you're challenging that, including the rest of your most recent comment.
    They're both rows in a TableView -- Shit, if it is necessary to convince you I can display images in my Apple Watch TableView and make it look exactly like the PassBook app you provided ... and the interaction between watch and phone would be exactly as described in my post.

    So they both utilized TableView in their development so they're the same? :???: That means most apps are the same based on that criteria. The interaction should be the same as with Passbook for the iPhone, except for what they've had to do differently to idealize it for the much smaller display, and inclusion of both a digital crown and pressure sensitive display.
    Hey, you're an Apple iOS developer. why don't you do some research about WatchKit (especially Apple Pay, and WKInterfaceTable) and see what you can find to support your contention that the iPhone doesn't participate in Apple Watch Apple Pay except when you setup credit cards.

    1) I don't see how those go together, especially when there is no open ?Watch code in which delve into.

    2) My contention is based solely on the information they've supplied:
    • Passbook predates NFC on the iPhone by a couple years.
    • NFC contains a secure element for ?Pay
    • Only the iPhone 6 series and new iPads contain a secure element because they NFC.
    • ?Watch doesn't have cellular or WiFi connectivity in which get a representational card number and token from your bank.
    • ?Watch's main communication protocols are BT and NFC.
    • ?Watch does have WiFi, but only for pairing with Bluetooth High Speed.
    • ?Watch contains standard NAND storage; enough to even playback songs and some basic user data.

    From that we can conclude:
    • Standard Passbook passes aren't to be stored in the secure element of NFC because they weren't previously.
    • iPhone needs to be used to setup ?Pay on ?Watch because:
      1. it needs the iPhone's camera/keybaord for input of your physical card data
      2. then the iPhone's Cellular/WiFi communication to your bank
      3. then the BT connection to ?Watch to store the data on the secure element of the ?Watch NFC chip.
    • Once this is setup and synced the iPhone won't be have to tethered to ?Watch for a typical ?Pay transaction.

    FWIW, you're showing a Apple Watch PassBook app to select coupons/loyalty cards -- not an Apple Watch Apple Pay transaction -- big difference.

    If you read the text I took the trouble to underline you'd see that it clearly states it will also let you choose when credit or debit card to use for ?Pay. What's your logic in thinking that ?Watch will let you select various Passbook passes on ?Watch but then not select a different credit or debit card via that same interface, even though we know this is how it works on the iPhone, and that the ?Pay cannot be stored on those older iPhones?
    Are you suggesting that all the PassBook data and images are permanently stored on the watch, once it is setup by the iPhone? -- possibly 10s of passes, coupons, loyalty cards, credit cards debit cards ...

    Or, maybe you are suggesting the just the Apple Watch device token for, say, 5-10 credit/cards ...

    In either case, how does a user, out and about, switch among a Visa card to pay at Walgreens, then a Macy's card to pay at Macy's, then Master Card to pay for Dinner, then an AMEX card at the bar …

    Yes, because that's what Apple has clearly stated. How you do it is via the touchscreen and/or the digital crown… just as Apple suggests in the text of the image I posted.
    C'mon -- the user has an iPhone and most likely it is on his person ... Why burden the limited Apple Watch with storing all this cruft -- when it can invoke the iPhone app to handle it in a breeze ... It takes more time to type this sentence, than it takes to bring up a PassBook (Table selection) app on the iPhone, populate the corresponding watch table, recognize the user's watch selection and display the selected card logo on the watch for Apple Pay use.

    1) If ?Watch is useless for selecting Passbook passes then why does Apple detail with an image and text on the ability to select passes and ?Pay accounts?

    2) You talk about burdening ?Watch but you're suggestion is to put ?Watch near and NFC capable device which will then send via BT to the iPhone so the user can then see the card on their iPhone in one of their hands and then press the button below the digital crown to make the payment on their ?Watch? I'm guessing that's not how you envision it, but that is what you're suggesting with your setup since ?Watch has the NFC chip with the secure element and the NFC antennas, the interface and button for making the secure payment to the retailer.
    In addition, the iPhone can be authorized to recognize iBeacons to notify the watch of nearby specials, loyalty card deals ... something the watch can;t do by itself.

    1) Why can't the BT in ?Watch be made to pick up BT from iBeacons? Personally, I don't want this to happen but there is no technical reason why it can't work.

    2) iBeacons have no bearing on how ?Pay will work on ?Watch.
  • Reply 88 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    What is the Secure Element, anyway? Has one been cracked open and studied? Is it a random word from a dictionary? A water droplet? An atomic-scale crystalline anomaly? Maybe it's a JJ Abrams "mystery box",,,

    Like the secure enclave is on the Touch ID chip, the secure element is part of the NFC chip, which supplies both secure storage and secure transmission of the stored data supplied to each device for each card from each bank.

    From what I've read, on the Apple Watch (and any iDevice with NFC) the Secure Element is used to store unique (to that device) Device tokens for each credit or debit card setup on that device.

    When you Apple Pay on the watch:
    1. the NFC POST terminal presents an amount to the Apple Watch for payment
    2. the user selects (or has already selected) a card for payment
    3. the corresponding Device token [/B is processed by some algorithm to generate an unique, 1-time, time-limited Transaction Token *
    4. this Transaction Token is sent via NFC to the POST Terminal, and awaits a Transaction Response:   approved;  declined;  no response (timeout).
    5. Likely, the payment request, the Transaction Token, and the Transaction Response are logged

    * depending on the tech used by the banks, this could include:  imbedded general location data (e.g., San Francisco as opposed to Pasadena);  some predetermined handshake data used update the Device token to dynamically condition the generation the next Transaction Token ...

    What's unclear is:
    1. How much of this is done on the Apple Watch -- step 4 at a minimum
    2. What else other than the Device tokens, if anything, is stored in the Secure Element on the Apple Watch
    3. Where (Watch or iPhone) the Transaction Token is generated
    4. Where (Watch or iPhone) the logged data, if any, is stored
  • Reply 89 of 146
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    From what I've read…

    I'm done. You're making it way too complicated, and if Apple couldn't make it obvious then I certainly don't have a chance. I guess just wait for the next presentation and you'll probably get to see a demo of how this works with an iPhone for setup and without an iPhone for retail payments.
  • Reply 90 of 146
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,397moderator
    cnocbui wrote: »
    I would say most transactions use Visa Debit over here.  You are accessing funds in your own bank account, not credit, and I have never heard of a breach of the point of sale system whereby data was intercepted and used to withdraw funds from someone's account.  I presume encryption is used.  Without the PIN, the card is unusable.

    Tokeneisation would seem to provide a benefit in terms of not divulging marketing and identification information to the retailer, but I am not sure that occurs at present over here as I have never received anything unsolicited in the mail, for example, that might indicate my details were passed on to a retailer in a chip and PIN transaction.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-03-13/target-missed-alarms-in-epic-hack-of-credit-card-data

    "Target stood by as 40 million credit card numbers—and 70 million addresses, phone numbers, and other pieces of personal information—gushed out of its mainframes."

    It's debit/Visa cards too:

    https://corporate.target.com/about/shopping-experience/payment-card-issue-FAQ

    If someone gets the card numbers, they don't need a PIN code to use the details. Online shopping never requires you to enter a PIN. They don't need to do anything at the point of transaction. There are laws for businesses to keep transaction records for a number of years to help with law enforcement and money laundering. ?Pay still allows records to be kept but the details won't allow someone else to use the details to buy something.
  • Reply 91 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    I understand that and never challenged it! Why are you creating conflict when none exists?

    It sure seems like you're challenging that, including the rest of your most recent comment.
    They're both rows in a TableView -- Shit, if it is necessary to convince you I can display images in my Apple Watch TableView and make it look exactly like the PassBook app you provided ... and the interaction between watch and phone would be exactly as described in my post.

    So they both utilized TableView in their development so they're the same? :???: That means most apps are the same based on that criteria. The interaction should be the same as with Passbook for the iPhone, except for what they've had to do differently to idealize it for the much smaller display, and inclusion of both a digital crown and pressure sensitive display.
    Hey, you're an Apple iOS developer. why don't you do some research about WatchKit (especially Apple Pay, and WKInterfaceTable) and see what you can find to support your contention that the iPhone doesn't participate in Apple Watch Apple Pay except when you setup credit cards.

    1) I don't see how those go together, especially when there is no open ?Watch code in which delve into.

    2) My contention is based solely on the information they've supplied:
    • Passbook predates NFC on the iPhone by a couple years.
    • NFC contains a secure element for ?Pay
    • Only the iPhone 6 series and new iPads contain a secure element because they NFC.
    • ?Watch doesn't have cellular or WiFi connectivity in which get a representational card number and token from your bank.
    • ?Watch's main communication protocols are BT and NFC.
    • ?Watch does have WiFi, but only for pairing with Bluetooth High Speed.
    • ?Watch contains standard NAND storage; enough to even playback songs and some basic user data.

    From that we can conclude:
    • Standard Passbook passes aren't to be stored in the secure element of NFC because they weren't previously.
    • iPhone needs to be used to setup ?Pay on ?Watch because:
      1. it needs the iPhone's camera/keybaord for input of your physical card data
      2. then the iPhone's Cellular/WiFi communication to your bank
      3. then the BT connection to ?Watch to store the data on the secure element of the ?Watch NFC chip.
    • Once this is setup and synced the iPhone won't be have to tethered to ?Watch for a typical ?Pay transaction.

    FWIW, you're showing a Apple Watch PassBook app to select coupons/loyalty cards -- not an Apple Watch Apple Pay transaction -- big difference.

    If you read the text I took the trouble to underline you'd see that it clearly states it will also let you choose when credit or debit card to use for ?Pay. What's your logic in thinking that ?Watch will let you select various Passbook passes on ?Watch but then not select a different credit or debit card via that same interface, even though we know this is how it works on the iPhone, and that the ?Pay cannot be stored on those older iPhones?
    Are you suggesting that all the PassBook data and images are permanently stored on the watch, once it is setup by the iPhone? -- possibly 10s of passes, coupons, loyalty cards, credit cards debit cards ...

    Or, maybe you are suggesting the just the Apple Watch device token for, say, 5-10 credit/cards ...

    In either case, how does a user, out and about, switch among a Visa card to pay at Walgreens, then a Macy's card to pay at Macy's, then Master Card to pay for Dinner, then an AMEX card at the bar …

    Yes, because that's what Apple has clearly stated. How you do it is via the touchscreen and/or the digital crown… just as Apple suggests in the text of the image I posted.
    C'mon -- the user has an iPhone and most likely it is on his person ... Why burden the limited Apple Watch with storing all this cruft -- when it can invoke the iPhone app to handle it in a breeze ... It takes more time to type this sentence, than it takes to bring up a PassBook (Table selection) app on the iPhone, populate the corresponding watch table, recognize the user's watch selection and display the selected card logo on the watch for Apple Pay use.

    1) If ?Watch is useless for selecting Passbook passes then why does Apple detail with an image and text on the ability to select passes and ?Pay accounts?

    2) You talk about burdening ?Watch but you're suggestion is to put ?Watch near and NFC capable device which will then send via BT to the iPhone so the user can then see the card on their iPhone in one of their hands and then press the button below the digital crown to make the payment on their ?Watch? I'm guessing that's not how you envision it, but that is what you're suggesting with your setup since ?Watch has the NFC chip with the secure element and the NFC antennas, the interface and button for making the secure payment to the retailer.
    In addition, the iPhone can be authorized to recognize iBeacons to notify the watch of nearby specials, loyalty card deals ... something the watch can;t do by itself.

    1) Why can't the BT in ?Watch be made to pick up BT from iBeacons? Personally, I don't want this to happen but there is no technical reason why it can't work.

    2) iBeacons have no bearing on how ?Pay will work on ?Watch.


    1) BT could be used on the Watch to recognize iBeacons -- But I don't think it is a good idea because: Even BTLE will drain the battery faster on an iPhone when left on; You don't want a lot of unsolicited [iBeacon] notifications, so you'ld, likely, need to run an iPhone app to condition the Watch to only recognize selected iBeacons.

    2) Citation? The iPhone could be set to selectively recognize iBeacons from nearby Apple Pay enabled merchants -- and trigger a notification to the Watch -- and even tell the Watch to suggest / pre-select a credit card.


    I re-read all your comments, especially the lines on the Watch Passbook image ... I understand your points.


    However, Apple states, without equivocation that an iPhone is required for Apple Pay on the Watch. Everything I've read suggests the Watch is pretty much dead in the water without an attendant iPhone connection -- except for basic clock apps.

    I do not think you will be able to use Apple Pay on the Watch if you do not have your iPhone, if your iPhone is dead or it cannot connect with the Watch ... Am I wrong?

    Time (no pun) will tell!
  • Reply 92 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    From what I've read…

    I'm done. You're making it way too complicated, and if Apple couldn't make it obvious then I certainly don't have a chance. I guess just wait for the next presentation and you'll probably get to see a demo of how this works with an iPhone for setup and without an iPhone for retail payments.

    I await that preso!

    I think that an iPhone connection will be required to make an Apple Pay transaction on the first version the Apple Watch!

    If proven wrong I will be pleasantly surprised and gladly admit that I was wrong!

    However, I am willing to place a small bet in support of my position -- Interested?
  • Reply 93 of 146
    Am I wrong?

    I think it's patently obvious that you are, but you are not alone in your position on this matter.
  • Reply 94 of 146
    cnocbui wrote: »

    What percentage of your in-person transactions do you use ?Pay for?

    Roughly 5-10% per week. The only way I buy anything at Home Depot now is with Apple pay – – good thing they smartened up and take it now.

    We shifted to two grocery store chains (Sprouts and Whole Foods) that take Apple pay along with Walgreens as our new pharmacy. Family of nine eats a lot.

    Ralph's is down to less than 1% of the business volume it used to get from us.

    Costco better hurry it's butt up.

    Have not been back to Target since we had to replace two credit cards because of their casual approach to my private data.

    If a business does not take Apple pay, then I pull out the credit card that cost them the most and offers the highest protection for my transaction: Amex
  • Reply 95 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    Am I wrong?

    I think it's patently obvious that you are, but you are not alone in your position on this matter.

    Well. I submitted the following to the WatchKit Apple Developers forum:

    Can you make Apple Pay payments on a properly setup Apple Watch without an iPhone connection available?

    Because of NDA, I can't discuss it much more than this -- even if the question gets answered ...

    But Paid iOS Developers can go online and follow it:

    https://devforums.apple.com/thread/260898?tstart=0
  • Reply 96 of 146
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    Well. I submitted the following to the WatchKit Apple Developers forum:

    Can you make Apple Pay payments on a properly setup Apple Watch without an iPhone connection available?

    Because of NDA, I can't discuss it much more than this -- even if the question gets answered ...

    But Paid iOS Developers can go online and follow it:

    https://devforums.apple.com/thread/260898?tstart=0

    I'd submit my answer to your thread, but that wouldn't be very helpful in this case, now would it. :D
  • Reply 97 of 146
    solipsismy wrote: »
    Well. I submitted the following to the WatchKit Apple Developers forum:

    Can you make Apple Pay payments on a properly setup Apple Watch without an iPhone connection available?

    Because of NDA, I can't discuss it much more than this -- even if the question gets answered ...

    But Paid iOS Developers can go online and follow it:

    https://devforums.apple.com/thread/260898?tstart=0

    I'd submit my answer to your thread, but that wouldn't be very helpful in this case, now would it. :D

    Sure -- Actually, it might trigger a response by an Apple Engineer or someone else in the know ...
  • Reply 98 of 146
    cnocbui wrote: »
    You can make on-line purchases via Apple Pay. For example:
    • in app purchases - including Target who doesn't, yet, support in-store Apple Pay
    • iTunes Store
    • Prepay takeout orders made on-line, e.g. Panera Bread
    • StubHub for event tickets ...


    The point is, that Apple Pay payments are secure -- PayPal are not!


    I have quite some personal experience in making many hundreds of payments via Paypal over some years and I am failing to see in what way they are insecure.  Could you expound on this point please.

    Since you're one frickin' data point in the whole payments universe, that's all that matters.

    Got it. Now, go away.
  • Reply 99 of 146
    I think that an iPhone connection will be required to make an Apple Pay transaction on the first version the Apple Watch!

    This is my understanding too. Unless I bady misheard....
  • Reply 100 of 146
    asdasd wrote: »
    The 5s has touchID

    I don't think the 5s can be used for ApplePay.
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