Only a idiot would fight a battle they know they can't win.
And only a person who is true to their cause would fight the battle regardless, because they are totally sold out for their cause. It's called really believing in the things that you say you believe, to the point that you live it out consistently and across the board.
You are an idiot. People fight battles they can win.
Why do I gotta be all that just because you disagree with me man? If you disagree, you disagree, I'm totally okay with that. Just say you disagree and point out why.
If you only ever fight battles that you know that you can win it doesn't make you courageous for fighting the battle. If you only ever say what you believe when you know that you're not going to face adversity for saying it, then how can you claim to REALLY believe what you say? I don't get what makes me an idiot for this way of thinking......
And thank you for giving the object lesson as to exactly WHY religious freedom protection laws are necessary.
Because people like yourself don't understand why the Bible is believed to be accurate and you don't care. Therefore, you think it's all "a bunch of hooey." And therefore, you wouldn't care that Christians are FORCED to pay for abortion or rent a bed to a gay couple or hire a gay person as the pastor of their church, etc.
The real error is taking the man and woman relationship in marriage ordained by God and saying "who cares." Shame on you for not being OK with me doing whatever I please - when the reality is that you do anyway. But the line is drawn when you now want to start stepping on the Bible and forcing your beliefs down Christians throats.
No laws force people to go to church, force you to hire Christians, etc. But here people choosing to disobey the Bible want power over those who live according to it.
It needs to stop.
I worked for HP when Fiorina was there. Didn't really care for her much then. But she is right here.
Everything Apple does isn't right. But this isn't Apple. This is Tim.
Steve stood for bettering peoples lives through the best products it could make.
Tim does seem to be holding that same view.
But he also seems to overlap that with his belief in making the world a gayer place.
Hopefully he learns that he is already free to practice his lifestyle however shameful. But he doesn't have the right to trample on others beliefs in order to do so.
Funny that he wants everyone to have to believe that "gay is OK." But since the Bible teaches it's not, he also much oppose it.
So he is intolerant while spewing tolerance.
Just go back to building the next iPad please.
Newsflash. We're NOT a Christian nation, no matter how much you theocrats wish otherwise. You object to equal rights for gay people because your magic manual from the sky wizard tells you to. If we lived in sky wizard land, that might hold weight. But we don't live in sky wizard land. We live in the United States, where church and state are wisely separated.
What makes you think that you deserve special treatment? You want to live your life according to a book of mythology and the rest of society is supposed to bend over backwards and accommodate you? Gay people aren't the ones seeking special rights. It's whiny Christians who seem to confuse the USA with some medieval Christian state.
You make a very good point but a lot of Americans do see gay rights as the next battle ground. It is the new civil rights movement.
Not really, Most people in this country don't give a crap!!! They're out their trying to live their lives. If people cared, the country wouldn't be in the crapper it's in. It's a Small Minority with BIG MOUTHS!!!
Not really, Most people in this country don't give a crap!!! They're out their trying to live their lives. If people cared, the country wouldn't be in the crapper it's in. It's a Small Minority with BIG MOUTHS!!!
That's an unrealistic expectation for a public company IMO.
something like that would probably have to be done with a shareholder vote
If you're going to be the CEO of a huge public company and start getting politico on everyone. We'll that's on you. You either stop being a Hypocrite or you quite being the CEO of the company and go out into the world on your own fighting for the cause!!!
Yeah it must be hard to keep your stress levels down with all these gay people around. Now with this law your all set you go get pizza with out fear of seeing or interacting with the "gays"
There was nothing stopping any gay people from going into the businesses and having a Pizza!!! They were always free to do so. They shouldn't be forced to go serve pizza at a gay wedding if they don't want to!!!
Legal system isn't secular, neither is the economic one for that matter. Been in court lately? You still swear on a Bible last I checked. And despite the efforts to remove the displays, the Ten Commandments largely form the basis of our laws.
Hmm, really? I don't recall any of the following laws on the books:
Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
Honour thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not covet
The commandments against killing and bearing false witness against thy neighbor (lying) are routinely violated by religious folk, under all sorts of justifications.
It's also interesting to note that the very First Amendment of the Bill of Rights explicitly prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, much to the chagrin of religious extremists.
It's funny how global politics pit one country against another, when in reality most conflicts are based on clashes between those who want peaceful, free, and egalitarian societies and those who wield hate, violence, and economic power to impose their political and religious will upon others. Both groups are well represented within every country and region, as this debate illustrates.
Over the past few days I have seen many members talk about leaving the forum for a while. Some of it is due to what they consider trolling and people disrupting threads but I have to say these threads are the most divisive I have ever seen. I know I have been part of that because I have strong feelings, however in the end all I end up doing is being part of the divisiveness and hurting others feelings and putting them on defense.
After going back and reading these kinds of threads I'm actually ashamed at some of the things that I have said in the heat of the moment or getting defensive and pushing my point much harder then needed. I really hope one of two things happen either AI stops posting articles like this or we simply stop replying in them.
I would hate down the line all of us not to be able to have an open dialog about all the great Apple technology that will certainly come down the line over the years because we offended each other in threads like this that can go no where except down a bad road.
So for anyone that I have offended over the past week I do apologize. Fighting over something like human rights or discrimination which should be common sense everyone deserves it is not the kind of person I am nor the kind of person I want to be seen as because I get defensive. Hopefully these articles will stop at some point. Sadly the issues won't at least not in the short term.
Is this something they taught you on Republican Talk radio or Fox news, because it is completely wrong. Liberals disapprove of Islam as much as conservative Christians do. As far as Israel is concerned, the only thing that many liberals would prefer is that the US stop giving them weaponry and money for their military. As far as I am concerned we give away too much money in general.
All all for stopping giving all these country's money!!! Why are we? We're borrowing from China and others and then giving money to China and everyone else. We're 18 trillion in Debt. Who does this. I also think we should just pull all our bases out of all these country's including Europe. It's basically a America invasion around the world. it's not like we Have a French Army base in Alabama, and a UK Army base in Nebraska, etc. Many of these places don't want us anyway. Of course if we pulled out, all that American money goes away and would really hurt them. The again, we hurt our own country with all the base closures. We can't even protect our own boarders.
Pull out, let them go on killing each other. it's not like we could ever stop it. They've been at it for thousands of years. How about we stop being the world police.
There was nothing stopping any gay people from going into the businesses and having a Pizza!!! They were always free to do so. They shouldn't be forced to go serve pizza at a gay wedding if they don't want to!!!
Wtf is wrong with you people? First, no self respecting gay person would EVER have a pizza wedding. Second, if you don't want to cater a gay wedding, tell them you're already booked. It's not that difficult to decline with tact. People do it every day for all sorts of reasons. A certain vocal Christian minority always needs to play the persecuted victim though. And this time it totally backfired. You don't need to throw your intolerant religion in someone's face as the reason you declined a job. And why should one's religion be a legitimate reason to decline business when one's distaste for certain skin colors or body shapes or country of origin or sex are not?
In the US Tim can speak his mind as a citizen, even if there is some financial consequences to Apple. It would be improper and possibly illegal for him to speak out in the same way about a foreign country as a spokesperson for Apple because it would be in violation of his fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders if there were financial repercussions because of his criticism.
That's a complete load of crap! If he really had a responsibility to the shareholders, he wouldn't be speaking out about it anywhere. He's the CEO of Apple, Not a Politician. If he doesn't want to sound like a huge Hypocrite, Quite Apple and go out on a Guy Crusade!!! Speaking out around the world!!!! I'd respect he far more for doing that.
I don't give a crap that's GAY and the guy on top of Apple. it has zero bearing on running the Company. The other on the other hand does.
With Fiorina's extended and disastrous history of failures as a CEO and "politician" she has zero credibility when it comes to...well...anything. Period.
Wanna see someone call Tim Cook a hypocrite, imagine him lecturing the Chinese and them saying, "Hey, look what's going on in your stupid country, you're going backwards in Indiana, Arkansas and twenty other states." Tim: "Well, I tried to tell them . . ."
Chinese official: "Apple has a lot of glass houses here."
What is so hard about this chain of reasoning for you? Convicting him of hypocrisy without an argument based on whether he has a moral high ground over another sovereign country is plainly simplistic.
Well no it's not. The manner in which China could potentially react is neither here nor there in terms of what makes his stance hypocritical or not. A person with true convictions holds those convictions regardless of outside forces, and their response to those convictions. All of you are approaching this from the outside in and saying "well based on this hypothetical consequence that i'm making up, why would Tim want to say anything about the other countries?" What I'm saying is that if he was deeply convicted, no amount of money or personal loss would keep him from saying what he thinks to any country that Apple does business in. I'm not saying that he doesn't in some way really feel what he's saying, but what i'm saying is that that conviction only goes as deep as his pockets and/or position. Therefore "justice" takes a backseat to his pockets and/or position when the terms aren't as favorable for him to speak. That's hypocritical.
If I run around claiming to believe that God would bring me back from the dead, and someone pointed a gun to my head and said denounce your God or die, and I denounced him, how deep would you say my personal conviction is??? If I backed down in this case when the terms weren't favorable for me, you would say that my conviction isn't very deep would you not? You would call me a hypocrite for my words and my actions not lining up according to all that I had said would you not?
I don't get what's so hard to understand about that....
Because people like yourself don't understand why the Bible is believed to be accurate and you don't care. you wouldn't care that Christians are FORCED to pay for abortion or rent a bed to a gay couple or hire a gay person as the pastor of their church, etc.
Ok, while we're on that topic, why are churches tax exempt? Why am I forced to subsidize religious groups with my tax dollars?
And why is it that some Christians choose to ignore the core teachings of Christ (unconditional love, acceptance, forgiveness, not judging others), while obsessing on some carefully selected verses from the Old Testament to justify their hate and persecution of others?
"Do to others whatever you would have them do to you." (Matt 7:12; par. Luke 6:31)
"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." (Luke 6:27-28; par. Matt 5:43-48)
"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you." (Matt 7:1-2; par. Luke 6:37)
Hmm, really? I don't recall any of the following laws on the books:
Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
Honour thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not covet
The commandments against killing and bearing false witness against thy neighbor (lying) are routinely violated by religious folk, under all sorts of justifications.
It's also interesting to note that the very First Amendment of the Bill of Rights explicitly prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, much to the chagrin of religious extremists.
It's funny how global politics pit one country against another, when in reality most conflicts are based on clashes between those who want peaceful, free, and egalitarian societies and those who wield hate, violence, and economic power to impose their political and religious will upon others. Both groups are well represented within every country and region, as this debate illustrates.
It's also funny how people forget the "nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" clause of that Amendment.
Check and mate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbyx
Newsflash. We're NOT a Christian nation, no matter how much you theocrats wish otherwise. You object to equal rights for gay people because your magic manual from the sky wizard tells you to. If we lived in sky wizard land, that might hold weight. But we don't live in sky wizard land. We live in the United States, where church and state are wisely separated.
What makes you think that you deserve special treatment? You want to live your life according to a book of mythology and the rest of society is supposed to bend over backwards and accommodate you? Gay people aren't the ones seeking special rights. It's whiny Christians who seem to confuse the USA with some medieval Christian state.
Actually, we are a Christian nation. That doesn't mean other religions aren't welcome, nor does it mean you have to be religious. But the people who came over here wanted religious freedom, the founding documents are filled with references to a Creator...I mean, I can go on here...
Ok, while we're on that topic, why are churches tax exempt? Why am I forced to subsidize religious groups with my tax dollars?
And why is it that some Christians choose to ignore the core teachings of Christ (unconditional love, acceptance, forgiveness, not judging others), while obsessing on some carefully selected verses from the Old Testament to justify their hate and persecution of others?
"Do to others whatever you would have them do to you." (Matt 7:12; par. Luke 6:31)
"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." (Luke 6:27-28; par. Matt 5:43-48)
"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you." (Matt 7:1-2; par. Luke 6:37)
Churches are tax-exempt in the US because the government doesn't have the legal authority to tax them; this has been reaffirmed again recently by the courts.
Christ also condemned sin, and loving someone doesn't mean you unquestioningly agree with all their behavior. That's not love, that's hate. If you love someone, you try to help them when you see them going wrong.
Comments
Only a idiot would fight a battle they know they can't win.
And only a person who is true to their cause would fight the battle regardless, because they are totally sold out for their cause. It's called really believing in the things that you say you believe, to the point that you live it out consistently and across the board.
Of course they do.
It was all part of my jab.
I thought one of us was going crazy for a second. I could still be going crazy the jury is out on that one.
You are an idiot. People fight battles they can win.
Why do I gotta be all that just because you disagree with me man? If you disagree, you disagree, I'm totally okay with that. Just say you disagree and point out why.
If you only ever fight battles that you know that you can win it doesn't make you courageous for fighting the battle. If you only ever say what you believe when you know that you're not going to face adversity for saying it, then how can you claim to REALLY believe what you say? I don't get what makes me an idiot for this way of thinking......
Newsflash. We're NOT a Christian nation, no matter how much you theocrats wish otherwise. You object to equal rights for gay people because your magic manual from the sky wizard tells you to. If we lived in sky wizard land, that might hold weight. But we don't live in sky wizard land. We live in the United States, where church and state are wisely separated.
What makes you think that you deserve special treatment? You want to live your life according to a book of mythology and the rest of society is supposed to bend over backwards and accommodate you? Gay people aren't the ones seeking special rights. It's whiny Christians who seem to confuse the USA with some medieval Christian state.
You make a very good point but a lot of Americans do see gay rights as the next battle ground. It is the new civil rights movement.
Not really, Most people in this country don't give a crap!!! They're out their trying to live their lives. If people cared, the country wouldn't be in the crapper it's in. It's a Small Minority with BIG MOUTHS!!!
Not really, Most people in this country don't give a crap!!! They're out their trying to live their lives. If people cared, the country wouldn't be in the crapper it's in. It's a Small Minority with BIG MOUTHS!!!
Oh shut up you backwards moron.
That's an unrealistic expectation for a public company IMO.
something like that would probably have to be done with a shareholder vote
If you're going to be the CEO of a huge public company and start getting politico on everyone. We'll that's on you. You either stop being a Hypocrite or you quite being the CEO of the company and go out into the world on your own fighting for the cause!!!
Yeah it must be hard to keep your stress levels down with all these gay people around. Now with this law your all set you go get pizza with out fear of seeing or interacting with the "gays"
There was nothing stopping any gay people from going into the businesses and having a Pizza!!! They were always free to do so. They shouldn't be forced to go serve pizza at a gay wedding if they don't want to!!!
Legal system isn't secular, neither is the economic one for that matter. Been in court lately? You still swear on a Bible last I checked. And despite the efforts to remove the displays, the Ten Commandments largely form the basis of our laws.
Hmm, really? I don't recall any of the following laws on the books:
The commandments against killing and bearing false witness against thy neighbor (lying) are routinely violated by religious folk, under all sorts of justifications.
It's also interesting to note that the very First Amendment of the Bill of Rights explicitly prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, much to the chagrin of religious extremists.
It's funny how global politics pit one country against another, when in reality most conflicts are based on clashes between those who want peaceful, free, and egalitarian societies and those who wield hate, violence, and economic power to impose their political and religious will upon others. Both groups are well represented within every country and region, as this debate illustrates.
Over the past few days I have seen many members talk about leaving the forum for a while. Some of it is due to what they consider trolling and people disrupting threads but I have to say these threads are the most divisive I have ever seen. I know I have been part of that because I have strong feelings, however in the end all I end up doing is being part of the divisiveness and hurting others feelings and putting them on defense.
After going back and reading these kinds of threads I'm actually ashamed at some of the things that I have said in the heat of the moment or getting defensive and pushing my point much harder then needed. I really hope one of two things happen either AI stops posting articles like this or we simply stop replying in them.
I would hate down the line all of us not to be able to have an open dialog about all the great Apple technology that will certainly come down the line over the years because we offended each other in threads like this that can go no where except down a bad road.
So for anyone that I have offended over the past week I do apologize. Fighting over something like human rights or discrimination which should be common sense everyone deserves it is not the kind of person I am nor the kind of person I want to be seen as because I get defensive. Hopefully these articles will stop at some point. Sadly the issues won't at least not in the short term.
Is this something they taught you on Republican Talk radio or Fox news, because it is completely wrong. Liberals disapprove of Islam as much as conservative Christians do. As far as Israel is concerned, the only thing that many liberals would prefer is that the US stop giving them weaponry and money for their military. As far as I am concerned we give away too much money in general.
All all for stopping giving all these country's money!!! Why are we? We're borrowing from China and others and then giving money to China and everyone else. We're 18 trillion in Debt. Who does this. I also think we should just pull all our bases out of all these country's including Europe. It's basically a America invasion around the world. it's not like we Have a French Army base in Alabama, and a UK Army base in Nebraska, etc. Many of these places don't want us anyway. Of course if we pulled out, all that American money goes away and would really hurt them. The again, we hurt our own country with all the base closures. We can't even protect our own boarders.
Pull out, let them go on killing each other. it's not like we could ever stop it. They've been at it for thousands of years. How about we stop being the world police.
Wtf is wrong with you people? First, no self respecting gay person would EVER have a pizza wedding. Second, if you don't want to cater a gay wedding, tell them you're already booked. It's not that difficult to decline with tact. People do it every day for all sorts of reasons. A certain vocal Christian minority always needs to play the persecuted victim though. And this time it totally backfired. You don't need to throw your intolerant religion in someone's face as the reason you declined a job. And why should one's religion be a legitimate reason to decline business when one's distaste for certain skin colors or body shapes or country of origin or sex are not?
In the US Tim can speak his mind as a citizen, even if there is some financial consequences to Apple. It would be improper and possibly illegal for him to speak out in the same way about a foreign country as a spokesperson for Apple because it would be in violation of his fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders if there were financial repercussions because of his criticism.
That's a complete load of crap! If he really had a responsibility to the shareholders, he wouldn't be speaking out about it anywhere. He's the CEO of Apple, Not a Politician. If he doesn't want to sound like a huge Hypocrite, Quite Apple and go out on a Guy Crusade!!! Speaking out around the world!!!! I'd respect he far more for doing that.
I don't give a crap that's GAY and the guy on top of Apple. it has zero bearing on running the Company. The other on the other hand does.
Fired CEO, which is almost unheard of in the US, so that explains how bad she really was, now even worse politician showing her brilliance.......
CEO's get fired all the time. Hell I didn't even know who this person was, and I still don't care, but she's still right!!!
With Fiorina's extended and disastrous history of failures as a CEO and "politician" she has zero credibility when it comes to...well...anything. Period.
Wanna see someone call Tim Cook a hypocrite, imagine him lecturing the Chinese and them saying, "Hey, look what's going on in your stupid country, you're going backwards in Indiana, Arkansas and twenty other states." Tim: "Well, I tried to tell them . . ."
Chinese official: "Apple has a lot of glass houses here."
What is so hard about this chain of reasoning for you? Convicting him of hypocrisy without an argument based on whether he has a moral high ground over another sovereign country is plainly simplistic.
Well no it's not. The manner in which China could potentially react is neither here nor there in terms of what makes his stance hypocritical or not. A person with true convictions holds those convictions regardless of outside forces, and their response to those convictions. All of you are approaching this from the outside in and saying "well based on this hypothetical consequence that i'm making up, why would Tim want to say anything about the other countries?" What I'm saying is that if he was deeply convicted, no amount of money or personal loss would keep him from saying what he thinks to any country that Apple does business in. I'm not saying that he doesn't in some way really feel what he's saying, but what i'm saying is that that conviction only goes as deep as his pockets and/or position. Therefore "justice" takes a backseat to his pockets and/or position when the terms aren't as favorable for him to speak. That's hypocritical.
If I run around claiming to believe that God would bring me back from the dead, and someone pointed a gun to my head and said denounce your God or die, and I denounced him, how deep would you say my personal conviction is??? If I backed down in this case when the terms weren't favorable for me, you would say that my conviction isn't very deep would you not? You would call me a hypocrite for my words and my actions not lining up according to all that I had said would you not?
I don't get what's so hard to understand about that....
Because people like yourself don't understand why the Bible is believed to be accurate and you don't care. you wouldn't care that Christians are FORCED to pay for abortion or rent a bed to a gay couple or hire a gay person as the pastor of their church, etc.
Ok, while we're on that topic, why are churches tax exempt? Why am I forced to subsidize religious groups with my tax dollars?
And why is it that some Christians choose to ignore the core teachings of Christ (unconditional love, acceptance, forgiveness, not judging others), while obsessing on some carefully selected verses from the Old Testament to justify their hate and persecution of others?
Hmm, really? I don't recall any of the following laws on the books:
The commandments against killing and bearing false witness against thy neighbor (lying) are routinely violated by religious folk, under all sorts of justifications.
It's also interesting to note that the very First Amendment of the Bill of Rights explicitly prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, much to the chagrin of religious extremists.
It's funny how global politics pit one country against another, when in reality most conflicts are based on clashes between those who want peaceful, free, and egalitarian societies and those who wield hate, violence, and economic power to impose their political and religious will upon others. Both groups are well represented within every country and region, as this debate illustrates.
It's also funny how people forget the "nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" clause of that Amendment.
Check and mate.
Newsflash. We're NOT a Christian nation, no matter how much you theocrats wish otherwise. You object to equal rights for gay people because your magic manual from the sky wizard tells you to. If we lived in sky wizard land, that might hold weight. But we don't live in sky wizard land. We live in the United States, where church and state are wisely separated.
What makes you think that you deserve special treatment? You want to live your life according to a book of mythology and the rest of society is supposed to bend over backwards and accommodate you? Gay people aren't the ones seeking special rights. It's whiny Christians who seem to confuse the USA with some medieval Christian state.
Actually, we are a Christian nation. That doesn't mean other religions aren't welcome, nor does it mean you have to be religious. But the people who came over here wanted religious freedom, the founding documents are filled with references to a Creator...I mean, I can go on here...
Ok, while we're on that topic, why are churches tax exempt? Why am I forced to subsidize religious groups with my tax dollars?
And why is it that some Christians choose to ignore the core teachings of Christ (unconditional love, acceptance, forgiveness, not judging others), while obsessing on some carefully selected verses from the Old Testament to justify their hate and persecution of others?
Churches are tax-exempt in the US because the government doesn't have the legal authority to tax them; this has been reaffirmed again recently by the courts.
Christ also condemned sin, and loving someone doesn't mean you unquestioningly agree with all their behavior. That's not love, that's hate. If you love someone, you try to help them when you see them going wrong.
Thats what an smart warrior does ????