Its obviously manipulation by Call sellers and short sellers.
Who cares. They can only manipulate in the short-term.
Take advantage of the manipulation if you can by buying more shares.
correct. If you think the shares are going to ruse then go get some. Who cares about short term ups and downs if your in for the long haul.my portfolio is all about the long term and feathering my nest for retirement.
Its obviously manipulation by Call sellers and short sellers.
Who cares. They can only manipulate in the short-term.
Take advantage of the manipulation if you can by buying more shares.
At least you have the balls to call it what it is. This is the story of Apple....manipulation. Which is why I sometimes wish damn I wish the company could go private (yeah I know that's not possible). I'm in it for the long haul so in that respect day to day fluctuations don't bother me. But the optics bother me. And it bothers me that Apple's peers can have crap quarters and be rewarded by Wall Street yet no matter what Apple does someone finds a bear case to bring the the stock down.
This is the problem. Staring at stock tickers and trying to figure out what it going on in real time is not only impossible, it also induces bad investment decisions. I never do this, and in fact I dislike that AI runs that AAPL ticker at the top of the pages. I try to ignore it.
All companies get manipulated. That's how Wall Street makes money.
How do you think those people who bought Google at $600 feel now? Stocks being manipulated up in price can be even more devestating than stock manipulated down.
Wall Street will manipulate the price up or down to maximize their profits. If stocks don't move or only move in one direction Wall Street loses out.
You need to take advantage of the manipulation and wait it out. Look what Wall Street did to Apple in 2013. Dropped the price from $700 to $380. Those who took advantage of the manipulation made 100%+ gains in little over a year.
And temporary low prices are a good thing for long term Apple investors. It means Apple can buy cheap shares with their $200 billion capital return program.
Apple is taking advantage of the manipulation by buying back a huge chunk of their stock. Those who believe in the long-term success of the company should do the same and thank their lucky stars that Wall Street is giving us cheap shares.
So Bloomberg's spin is the stock is down because iPhone growth is decelerating. Apparently some analyst thinks so. Really? That's what they got out of the conference call yesterday?
At least you have the balls to call it what it is. This is the story of Apple....manipulation. Which is why I sometimes wish damn I wish the company could go private (yeah I know that's not possible). I'm in it for the long haul so in that respect day to day fluctuations don't bother me. But the optics bother me. And it bothers me that Apple's peers can have crap quarters and be rewarded by Wall Street yet no matter what Apple does someone finds a bear case to bring the the stock down.
Really, this is just unvarnished baloney. Every time a stock doesn't do precisely they think it should, someone trots out the "m" word, as if just the very act of the markets taking account of buying and selling activity is some sort of conspiracy. Forget that AAPL is one of the most heavily traded stocks on the planet, the conspiracy theorists are still making claims of manipulation as if it was a puny pink sheet issue being pumped by spam emailers. So tiresome.
So Bloomberg's spin is the stock is down because iPhone growth is decelerating. Apparently some analyst thinks so. Really? That's what they got out of the conference call yesterday?
The markets are down broadly so far today. Who the hell cares about Bloomberg's explanation? Why do you even listen to them?
Really, this is just unvarnished baloney. Every time a stock doesn't do precisely they think it should, someone trots out the "m" word, as if just the very act of the markets taking account of buying and selling activity is some sort of conspiracy. Forget that AAPL is one of the most heavily traded stocks on the planet, the conspiracy theorists are still making claims of manipulation as if it was a puny pink sheet issue being pumped by spam emailers. So tiresome.
I'm not implying anything illegal is going on. But when the talking heads on financial networks are scratching their heads trying to figure out why the stock is down it makes you wonder what's going on. Is it too much to expect a company reports good numbers and the stock pops the next day? Why is that considered some strange phenomenon when it comes to Apple?
Even Sog wouldn't have any other explanation for this one.
This is why I find investing in a business which I understand to be a better and more reliable use of my money than investing in the stock market which no one seems to understand.
You can invest in stocks, you just need to ignore the people who think every stock movement over every minute, hour, and day can and should be explained somehow. Because it can't, they just make stuff up that sounds plausible. Make sound investments, and turn off the stock tickers and the finance cable TV shows. None of them give you actionable advice, so why let them play with your emotions? Practice not even looking at your portfolio for weeks at a time. Now you can invest.
I'm not implying anything illegal is going on. But when the talking heads on financial networks are scratching their heads trying to figure out why the stock is down it makes you wonder what's going on. Is it too much to expect a company reports good numbers and the stock pops the next day? Why is that considered some strange phenomenon when it comes to Apple?
It's been said already: the markets are down today. Ignore the talking heads on TV. They are paid to prattle on nonstop so most of what they say is going to be total crap. Turn them off. Be happy.
CNBC's explanation is the thought by Wall Street is how can things get better. So basically if Apple reports an OK or bad quarter it's DOOM but if Apple reports a record quarter that's DOOM too because it can't get any better. It's nuts.
Welcome to Wall Street. Apple is doomed no matter what.
Slowing Growth: Apple in decline.
Record Growth: Apple can't keep this up.
Expected Growth: Apple is flatlining on way to decline.
At least you have the balls to call it what it is. This is the story of Apple....manipulation. Which is why I sometimes wish damn I wish the company could go private (yeah I know that's not possible). I'm in it for the long haul so in that respect day to day fluctuations don't bother me. But the optics bother me. And it bothers me that Apple's peers can have crap quarters and be rewarded by Wall Street yet no matter what Apple does someone finds a bear case to bring the the stock down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan
So Bloomberg's spin is the stock is down because iPhone growth is decelerating. Apparently some analyst thinks so. Really? That's what they got out of the conference call yesterday?
Exactly. This isn't about griping about investing, or whining about day to day fluctuations. As an investor, just buy and hold AAPL, no problem. The significance of something like this is that the perception of Apple and AAPL are affected by these types of ridiculous manipulations. People think, 'if Apple/AAPL is so great, why is the stock down?' and then come up with ridiculous explanations (like the one from bloomberg). With this in mind, I would argue that relatively minor (in the long term) manipulations like this actually do have long term consequences. This is probably the reason why we have so many idiots saying that AAPL is 'too big to grow,' because they need some rationalization to explain what intuitively seems contradictory.
I'm not saying AAPL isn't doing great. It is, obviously. But how do you know it wouldn't be even better without the BS I mentioned above? How do you know that AAPL isn't doing well in spite of this BS manipulation? We see trolls on this forum and across social media touting obvious anti Apple PR troll lines all the time, and especially around big releases. They're trying to manipulate public perception of Apple, and it often is effective to a certain extent (e.g. bendgate). I see stock manipulation similarly. So even if Apple/AAPL continues to do well, it seems like it is in spite of these efforts, and it still bothers me.
It's the post-hoc fallacy at work. Any two given events aren't necessarily cause and effect related just because they happen at the same time. But these people are paid to have something to say about everything on a 24/7 basis so they trip over this fallacy constantly. You'll hear, "the markets were up today because of..." and then the next day, the markets are down, often for the same reason (oil prices being one we are hearing a lot lately).
I'm not saying AAPL isn't doing great. It is, obviously. But how do you know it wouldn't be even better without the BS I mentioned above? How do you know that AAPL isn't doing well in spite of this BS manipulation? We see trolls on this forum and across social media touting obvious anti Apple PR troll lines all the time, and especially around big releases. They're trying to manipulate public perception of Apple, and it often is effective to a certain extent (e.g. bendgate). I see stock manipulation similarly. So even if Apple/AAPL continues to do well, it seems like it is in spite of these efforts, and it still bothers me.
You make senses there. I wouldn't bet much on AAPL based on the fluctuation caused by these Wall Street clowns. AAPL will do well over time, but for day traders, it's a damn risk. I'm selling my AAPL on $140 but I may lower it in the next few days. Will see.
I'm not saying AAPL isn't doing great. It is, obviously. But how do you know it wouldn't be even better without the BS I mentioned above? How do you know that AAPL isn't doing well in spite of this BS manipulation? We see trolls on this forum and across social media touting obvious anti Apple PR troll lines all the time, and especially around big releases. They're trying to manipulate public perception of Apple, and it often is effective to a certain extent (e.g. bendgate). I see stock manipulation similarly. So even if Apple/AAPL continues to do well, it seems like it is in spite of these efforts, and it still bothers me.
I've been around Apple (and AAPL) for a really, really long time (it's kind of scary to think how long, actually). In any case I think this experience gives me a reasonable feel for what actually matters to both the company and its stock.
At one time, the online trolls and the media were a real issue, but that was back in the days when Apple was truly a basket case and questions about their survival were legitimate (if often overly-dramatized). I was very active in defending Apple in those days because I thought it mattered (though whether really did or not, I can't say). Today Apple is a powerhouse, and by some measures, the largest company in the history of the planet. So why would I care what any of the online trolls or clueless media say, when my entire view of Apple was vindicated ages ago (in ace, spades, clubs and hearts)? What a waste of mental energy that would be.
As for the markets, they are what they are. AAPL is far too large for anyone to meaningfully "manipulate" it (which would be a crime if it actually happened, btw). Let the chattering classes chatter. It's what they do. I don't care, so I totally tune them out. I haven't been into any of this for the day, week, month, or even year. Staring into the hairy eyeball of the markets will make you crazy. If that's what you are doing, I can tell you from real practical experience that taking the long view is the antidote.
Really, this is just unvarnished baloney. Every time a stock doesn't do precisely they think it should, someone trots out the "m" word, as if just the very act of the markets taking account of buying and selling activity is some sort of conspiracy. Forget that AAPL is one of the most heavily traded stocks on the planet, the conspiracy theorists are still making claims of manipulation as if it was a puny pink sheet issue being pumped by spam emailers. So tiresome.
Yes. It's nigh impossible to game Apple now. This is a sell on news sell off. Happens all the time.
Want to see the ridiculous Wall Street analysis? Here it is:
"Apple Inc.’s stock dropped amid concerns that the rapid iPhone growth beyond its earnings jump can’t continue."
Look if you watch these kind of news feeds they actually change during the day. "Apple down on worries about continuing growth" replaced by "Apple up on strong growth". Or vice versa. The broader market isn't mentioned. There has to be a story.
It's not just Apple. Stocks down on blah. Stocks up because of Foo.
It can never be profit taking. The market always has to have a "reason" but it doesn't. Not short term anyway.
As for the markets, they are what they are. AAPL is far too large for anyone to meaningfully "manipulate" it (which would be a crime if it actually happened, btw). Let the chattering classes chatter. It's what they do. I don't care, so I totally tune them out. I haven't been into any of this for the day, week, month, or even year. Staring into the hairy eyeball of the markets will make you crazy. If that's what you are doing, I can tell you from real practical experience that taking the long view is the antidote.
Well said Doc. And just to add further to those here using the "manipulation" word - it isn't what you think. "Wall Street" isn't a singular entity, but of course hundreds (thousands?) of companies involved in the investment and financial industries. At any given moment millions of shares are trading hands in hundreds of companies. Those different financial businesses on Wall Street are not (for the vast majority of cases) colluding together to set the price of anything.
Sure there are always traders trying to make money in trading throughout the day, riding trends, doing options, blah blah blah - as sog35 mentioned. Some will try to take advantage of media stories if they think the market, or a stock, might trend a certain way. However, they might guess wrong and lose money.
Finally, you have to separate the "media" (which includes the public releases from "analysts") from those who actually trade/invest in companies. Wall Street does not equal the media or really analyst opinions. As Doc noted, those in the broader media today have to provide "output" 24/7, and thus they are producing tons of garbage. And in case of companies like Apple, they probably have found that negative stories provide more clicks/views/ratings than positive stories, most of the time. Think of it as entertainment, and don't ever let it influence what you invest in - that takes what is called research, and the media doesn't provide it.
Comments
At least you have the balls to call it what it is. This is the story of Apple....manipulation. Which is why I sometimes wish damn I wish the company could go private (yeah I know that's not possible). I'm in it for the long haul so in that respect day to day fluctuations don't bother me. But the optics bother me. And it bothers me that Apple's peers can have crap quarters and be rewarded by Wall Street yet no matter what Apple does someone finds a bear case to bring the the stock down.
stop looking at a single day.
This is the problem. Staring at stock tickers and trying to figure out what it going on in real time is not only impossible, it also induces bad investment decisions. I never do this, and in fact I dislike that AI runs that AAPL ticker at the top of the pages. I try to ignore it.
So Bloomberg's spin is the stock is down because iPhone growth is decelerating. Apparently some analyst thinks so. Really? That's what they got out of the conference call yesterday?
At least you have the balls to call it what it is. This is the story of Apple....manipulation. Which is why I sometimes wish damn I wish the company could go private (yeah I know that's not possible). I'm in it for the long haul so in that respect day to day fluctuations don't bother me. But the optics bother me. And it bothers me that Apple's peers can have crap quarters and be rewarded by Wall Street yet no matter what Apple does someone finds a bear case to bring the the stock down.
Really, this is just unvarnished baloney. Every time a stock doesn't do precisely they think it should, someone trots out the "m" word, as if just the very act of the markets taking account of buying and selling activity is some sort of conspiracy. Forget that AAPL is one of the most heavily traded stocks on the planet, the conspiracy theorists are still making claims of manipulation as if it was a puny pink sheet issue being pumped by spam emailers. So tiresome.
So Bloomberg's spin is the stock is down because iPhone growth is decelerating. Apparently some analyst thinks so. Really? That's what they got out of the conference call yesterday?
The markets are down broadly so far today. Who the hell cares about Bloomberg's explanation? Why do you even listen to them?
The markets are not down broadly today. S&P 500 and Dow just turned positive.
I'm not implying anything illegal is going on. But when the talking heads on financial networks are scratching their heads trying to figure out why the stock is down it makes you wonder what's going on. Is it too much to expect a company reports good numbers and the stock pops the next day? Why is that considered some strange phenomenon when it comes to Apple?
The market is down overall today. . .
Even Sog wouldn't have any other explanation for this one.
This is why I find investing in a business which I understand to be a better and more reliable use of my money than investing in the stock market which no one seems to understand.
You can invest in stocks, you just need to ignore the people who think every stock movement over every minute, hour, and day can and should be explained somehow. Because it can't, they just make stuff up that sounds plausible. Make sound investments, and turn off the stock tickers and the finance cable TV shows. None of them give you actionable advice, so why let them play with your emotions? Practice not even looking at your portfolio for weeks at a time. Now you can invest.
I'm not implying anything illegal is going on. But when the talking heads on financial networks are scratching their heads trying to figure out why the stock is down it makes you wonder what's going on. Is it too much to expect a company reports good numbers and the stock pops the next day? Why is that considered some strange phenomenon when it comes to Apple?
It's been said already: the markets are down today. Ignore the talking heads on TV. They are paid to prattle on nonstop so most of what they say is going to be total crap. Turn them off. Be happy.
If it was that easy then anyone could make money in stocks.
Wall Street is constantly throwing curve balls to make you buy and sell stocks at the wrong time.
Rely on fundamentals and don't let short term moves lead to stupid decisions.
+1
And to this I'd add, don't try to outguess the markets. Even the pros can't do it.
Welcome to Wall Street. Apple is doomed no matter what.
Slowing Growth: Apple in decline.
Record Growth: Apple can't keep this up.
Expected Growth: Apple is flatlining on way to decline.
At least you have the balls to call it what it is. This is the story of Apple....manipulation. Which is why I sometimes wish damn I wish the company could go private (yeah I know that's not possible). I'm in it for the long haul so in that respect day to day fluctuations don't bother me. But the optics bother me. And it bothers me that Apple's peers can have crap quarters and be rewarded by Wall Street yet no matter what Apple does someone finds a bear case to bring the the stock down.
So Bloomberg's spin is the stock is down because iPhone growth is decelerating. Apparently some analyst thinks so. Really? That's what they got out of the conference call yesterday?
Exactly. This isn't about griping about investing, or whining about day to day fluctuations. As an investor, just buy and hold AAPL, no problem. The significance of something like this is that the perception of Apple and AAPL are affected by these types of ridiculous manipulations. People think, 'if Apple/AAPL is so great, why is the stock down?' and then come up with ridiculous explanations (like the one from bloomberg). With this in mind, I would argue that relatively minor (in the long term) manipulations like this actually do have long term consequences. This is probably the reason why we have so many idiots saying that AAPL is 'too big to grow,' because they need some rationalization to explain what intuitively seems contradictory.
Want to see the ridiculous Wall Street analysis? Here it is:
"Apple Inc.’s stock dropped amid concerns that the rapid iPhone growth beyond its earnings jump can’t continue."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-28/apple-falls-as-concern-over-iphone-growth-outweighs-earnings
These clowns just won't give up on bashing AAPL.
no they don't.
1 year Apple is up 58%
2 year up 110%
5 year up 300%
10 year up 2000%
long term Apple has been doing great.
I'm not saying AAPL isn't doing great. It is, obviously. But how do you know it wouldn't be even better without the BS I mentioned above? How do you know that AAPL isn't doing well in spite of this BS manipulation? We see trolls on this forum and across social media touting obvious anti Apple PR troll lines all the time, and especially around big releases. They're trying to manipulate public perception of Apple, and it often is effective to a certain extent (e.g. bendgate). I see stock manipulation similarly. So even if Apple/AAPL continues to do well, it seems like it is in spite of these efforts, and it still bothers me.
Want to see the ridiculous Wall Street analysis? Here it is:
"Apple Inc.’s stock dropped amid concerns that the rapid iPhone growth beyond its earnings jump can’t continue."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-28/apple-falls-as-concern-over-iphone-growth-outweighs-earnings
These clowns just won't give up on bashing AAPL.
It's the post-hoc fallacy at work. Any two given events aren't necessarily cause and effect related just because they happen at the same time. But these people are paid to have something to say about everything on a 24/7 basis so they trip over this fallacy constantly. You'll hear, "the markets were up today because of..." and then the next day, the markets are down, often for the same reason (oil prices being one we are hearing a lot lately).
I'm not saying AAPL isn't doing great. It is, obviously. But how do you know it wouldn't be even better without the BS I mentioned above? How do you know that AAPL isn't doing well in spite of this BS manipulation? We see trolls on this forum and across social media touting obvious anti Apple PR troll lines all the time, and especially around big releases. They're trying to manipulate public perception of Apple, and it often is effective to a certain extent (e.g. bendgate). I see stock manipulation similarly. So even if Apple/AAPL continues to do well, it seems like it is in spite of these efforts, and it still bothers me.
You make senses there. I wouldn't bet much on AAPL based on the fluctuation caused by these Wall Street clowns. AAPL will do well over time, but for day traders, it's a damn risk. I'm selling my AAPL on $140 but I may lower it in the next few days. Will see.
I'm not saying AAPL isn't doing great. It is, obviously. But how do you know it wouldn't be even better without the BS I mentioned above? How do you know that AAPL isn't doing well in spite of this BS manipulation? We see trolls on this forum and across social media touting obvious anti Apple PR troll lines all the time, and especially around big releases. They're trying to manipulate public perception of Apple, and it often is effective to a certain extent (e.g. bendgate). I see stock manipulation similarly. So even if Apple/AAPL continues to do well, it seems like it is in spite of these efforts, and it still bothers me.
I've been around Apple (and AAPL) for a really, really long time (it's kind of scary to think how long, actually). In any case I think this experience gives me a reasonable feel for what actually matters to both the company and its stock.
At one time, the online trolls and the media were a real issue, but that was back in the days when Apple was truly a basket case and questions about their survival were legitimate (if often overly-dramatized). I was very active in defending Apple in those days because I thought it mattered (though whether really did or not, I can't say). Today Apple is a powerhouse, and by some measures, the largest company in the history of the planet. So why would I care what any of the online trolls or clueless media say, when my entire view of Apple was vindicated ages ago (in ace, spades, clubs and hearts)? What a waste of mental energy that would be.
As for the markets, they are what they are. AAPL is far too large for anyone to meaningfully "manipulate" it (which would be a crime if it actually happened, btw). Let the chattering classes chatter. It's what they do. I don't care, so I totally tune them out. I haven't been into any of this for the day, week, month, or even year. Staring into the hairy eyeball of the markets will make you crazy. If that's what you are doing, I can tell you from real practical experience that taking the long view is the antidote.
Yes. It's nigh impossible to game Apple now. This is a sell on news sell off. Happens all the time.
Look if you watch these kind of news feeds they actually change during the day. "Apple down on worries about continuing growth" replaced by "Apple up on strong growth". Or vice versa. The broader market isn't mentioned. There has to be a story.
It's not just Apple. Stocks down on blah. Stocks up because of Foo.
It can never be profit taking. The market always has to have a "reason" but it doesn't. Not short term anyway.
....
As for the markets, they are what they are. AAPL is far too large for anyone to meaningfully "manipulate" it (which would be a crime if it actually happened, btw). Let the chattering classes chatter. It's what they do. I don't care, so I totally tune them out. I haven't been into any of this for the day, week, month, or even year. Staring into the hairy eyeball of the markets will make you crazy. If that's what you are doing, I can tell you from real practical experience that taking the long view is the antidote.
Well said Doc. And just to add further to those here using the "manipulation" word - it isn't what you think. "Wall Street" isn't a singular entity, but of course hundreds (thousands?) of companies involved in the investment and financial industries. At any given moment millions of shares are trading hands in hundreds of companies. Those different financial businesses on Wall Street are not (for the vast majority of cases) colluding together to set the price of anything.
Sure there are always traders trying to make money in trading throughout the day, riding trends, doing options, blah blah blah - as sog35 mentioned. Some will try to take advantage of media stories if they think the market, or a stock, might trend a certain way. However, they might guess wrong and lose money.
Finally, you have to separate the "media" (which includes the public releases from "analysts") from those who actually trade/invest in companies. Wall Street does not equal the media or really analyst opinions. As Doc noted, those in the broader media today have to provide "output" 24/7, and thus they are producing tons of garbage. And in case of companies like Apple, they probably have found that negative stories provide more clicks/views/ratings than positive stories, most of the time. Think of it as entertainment, and don't ever let it influence what you invest in - that takes what is called research, and the media doesn't provide it.