Elon Musk welcomes rumored 'Apple Car,' reveals Tesla-to-Apple poaching at about 5:1

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  • Reply 101 of 169
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,985member
    wigby wrote: »

    Cars are controlled by computers. Brakes, acceleration, steering, airbags, etc. And then there's the direct interface on dashboard which me and my iPhone are constantly interfacing with. Not sure what you're talking about.

    My points were not excluding other brands. I was simply listing what car consumers look for in a purchase. Apple doesn't currently make or sell cars but they understand better than most (including car makers) how to truly connect with a customer on an emotional level. That experience isn't relegated to phones you stick into your pockets. It also works with watches which Apple designers love. Apple designers also love cars.

    Apple software is more efficient because they also make the hardware. That is why their electric vehicle will be more efficient than other carmakers electric vehicles. Why is Tesla's EV so efficient? They design all their own hardware except for steering column.

    I think it's safe to assume that Apple would modify Apple Car Care warranties differently from an iPhone warranty. No one is talking about an Apple car like it's an afterthought. It will take years and billions to develop and when they release it, they will design entire retail experiences around it just like they modified / built /changed over 400 retail stores to sell their Apple Watch.

    The computer that controls a car's functions matters none. The battery life of an electric car will not be reliant on the efficiency of its OS. Plenty of car makers know how to connect with its customers. You're so lost it's funny.
  • Reply 102 of 169
    wigbywigby Posts: 692member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    The computer that controls a car's functions matters none. The battery life of an electric car will not be reliant on the efficiency of its OS. Plenty of car makers know how to connect with its customers. You're so lost it's funny.



    Really? Is that why it took Toyota 20 years to develop it's hybrid battery technology? The same one they license out to all the other hybrid car makers. It's not just a matter putting a ton of batteries in a car and hooking up an electric motor to it.

     

    The same way it's not just a matter of putting a giant battery in a smartphone and hooking it up to a processor.

  • Reply 103 of 169
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,521member
    fallenjt wrote: »
    I believe battery coolant is in the sealed system. That means there's no change ever. So, no mechanic is needed for that task either.

    Actually, I looked up the maintenance schedule earlier today. They recommend a coolant change every two years, I seem to remember. Also a brake fluid change, like any other car.

    But contrary to what Mac_128 wants to peddle here in the way of FUD, there's nothing about gear oil change, of course, no repacking of wheel bearings, no suspension lube points are mentioned, and drivers are reporting that brake pads are lasting for ungodly mileages because of regenerative braking.

    They do suggest changing the cabin air filter at two years, but someone like Mac_128 could always ask his significant other to do it if he were afraid to do it himself. Same with those tricky wiper blades and washer fluid.
  • Reply 104 of 169
    dr millmossdr millmoss Posts: 5,403member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wigby View Post

     



    Unprofitable? That depends on whom you ask. The big 3 or 4 or whatever it is now might have great marketshare but not great profits but neither do Android phonemakers.

     

    Ask the high end car makers if they're hurting. Apple doesn't have to sell everyone in the world a car in order to make billions and also change the industry. They've done with several products already.

     

    Who said Tesla changed the car industry? I bring up Tesla because you said new carmakers to the industry couldn't get a foothold.

     

    Carmakers have no secret sauce. Virtually none of them make their own parts. They just combine pre-made chassis and parts from 3rd party manufacturers like legos until they get a car they like. Tesla and high-end car makers are the few exceptions.

     

    Do you really think Apple has any interest in creating a low cost, me too car?




    It doesn't matter who you ask, Tesla is unprofitable. They are facing the huge upfront costs of creating the manufacturing, servicing and sales infrastructure that is unique to the automotive industry. In their case, add in the additional costs of a recharging network and that huge battery factory in Nevada. It's Tesla that is advertising a secret sauce that they haven't really got. In reality this is a brutally expensive, low-margin business, littered with more failures than successes.

     

    I do not think Apple is interested in creating any car whatsoever. 

  • Reply 105 of 169
    wigbywigby Posts: 692member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

     



    It doesn't matter who you ask, Tesla is unprofitable. They are facing the huge upfront costs of creating the manufacturing, servicing and sales infrastructure that is unique to the automotive industry. In their case, add in the additional costs of a recharging network and that huge battery factory in Nevada. It's Tesla that is advertising a secret sauce that they haven't really got. In reality this is a brutally expensive, low-margin business, littered with more failures than successes.

     

    I do not think Apple is interested in creating any car whatsoever. 




    Most tech companies are not profitable for many years after startup. Tesla is a tech company that makes cars. They are selling/licensing out their battery technology to many other tech companies so I'm assuming they know what they're doing.

     

    Apple typically enters into "brutally expensive, low-margin business, littered with more failures than successes." and turns them around to make a amazing profit for themselves and set up a tier system for others to compete. They did it with computers, MP3 players, phones, tablets, watches and even retail stores (at least the ones that sell tech items).

     

    I don't see a car as any different than those examples except cars cost more and are bigger/heavier.

  • Reply 106 of 169
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,985member
    wigby wrote: »

    Really? Is that why it took Toyota 20 years to develop it's hybrid battery technology? The same one they license out to all the other hybrid car makers. It's not just a matter putting a ton of batteries in a car and hooking up an electric motor to it.

    The same way it's not just a matter of putting a giant battery in a smartphone and hooking it up to a processor.

    And do any of those manufacturers get better battery life than Toyota because of a more efficient OS?
  • Reply 107 of 169
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,985member
    wigby wrote: »
    I don't see a car as any different than those examples except cars cost more and are bigger/heavier.

    I'll tell you what I see, 2 door coupes, 4 door sedans, SUVs, and minivans. Which is Apple building?
  • Reply 108 of 169
    dr millmossdr millmoss Posts: 5,403member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wigby View Post

     



    Most tech companies are not profitable for many years after startup. Tesla is a tech company that makes cars. They are selling/licensing out their battery technology to many other tech companies so I'm assuming they know what they're doing.

     

    Apple typically enters into "brutally expensive, low-margin business, littered with more failures than successes." and turns them around to make a amazing profit for themselves and set up a tier system for others to compete. They did it with computers, MP3 players, phones, tablets, watches and even retail stores (at least the ones that sell tech items).

     

    I don't see a car as any different than those examples except cars cost more and are bigger/heavier.




    Actually, no. On all counts. Assuming that a company "knows what they are doing" does not answer any questions about what they are actually doing. What Tesla is doing is entering one of the most capital intensive of all the heavy industries. If you don't understand the implications, or aren't aware of the history and realities of the automotive industry, then this is not the place for me to try to explain them to you.

     

    Just the opposite for Apple. In fact they spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to turn a profit in an otherwise very profitable PC industry. Again, not something that should requiring explaining. All of those other products were within Apple's basic sphere of competencies and did not require huge capital costs to enter, nothing approaching what would be required to manufacture automobiles.

     

    Like I said, it's pipe-dream season. The tiniest shreds of evidence are turned into something Apple must be doing, or should be doing. Beyond that, no logic or evidence is required.

  • Reply 109 of 169
    wigbywigby Posts: 692member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

     



    Actually, no. On all counts. Assuming that a company "knows what they are doing" does not answer any questions about what they are actually doing. What Tesla is doing is entering one of the most capital intensive of all the heavy industries. If you don't understand the implications, or aren't aware of the history and realities of the automotive industry, then this is not the place for me to try to explain them to you.

     

    Just the opposite for Apple. In fact they spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to turn a profit in an otherwise very profitable PC industry. Again, not something that should requiring explaining. All of those other products were within Apple's basic sphere of competencies and did not require huge capital costs to enter, nothing approaching what would be required to manufacture automobiles.

     

    Like I said, it's pipe-dream season. The tiniest shreds of evidence are turned into something Apple must be doing, or should be doing. Beyond that, no logic or evidence is required.




    So you're saying you know about as much as me because neither one of us knows what Apple is doing.

     

    We both have opinions and that's cool. But believe it or not, Apple has been telegraphing their intentions for the past year or two. Do you really think that Jony Ive's quotes and responses about the automobile industry and current car design during lengthy Apple Watch interviews are just random or fabricated by the author? There are a lot of floating out there. He and other Apple employees are asked questions about all kinds of things and never expound on them unless they want to or need to. So if it's pipe-dream season, Apple is helping to feed the dream.

  • Reply 110 of 169
    wigbywigby Posts: 692member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    And do any of those manufacturers get better battery life than Toyota because of a more efficient OS?

    Some do and some don't. Some license the tech from Toyota and some don't. What's your point?

  • Reply 111 of 169
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,985member
    wigby wrote: »
    Some do and some don't. Some license the tech from Toyota and some don't. What's your point?

    My point is that you don't have one.
  • Reply 112 of 169
    wigbywigby Posts: 692member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    I'll tell you what I see, 2 door coupes, 4 door sedans, SUVs, and minivans. Which is Apple building?



    So now good opinions are based solely on inside info? Have fun with that on internet forums.

  • Reply 113 of 169
    wigbywigby Posts: 692member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    My point is that you don't have one.



    Hey that was almost worth the effort it took to type.

  • Reply 114 of 169
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,521member
    Another thread of evidence that Apple could be confident of its powers to enter the field of personal transportation:

    http://atomicdelights.com/blog/a-glimpse-at-how-the-apple-watch-is-made

    The point of this magnificent little essay is that Apple has pushed the boundaries of metal-sculpting on a mass scale ("the world's foremost manufacturer of goods") equal to or beyond any other company, and they learned to do this on the job, as it were. If you care to see where Apple might be headed in the future with "moving metal around," you'd better read or at least glance through this. (From a link from Gruber.)

    Henry Ford is often cited as an exemplary innovator in automobiles. Much more relevant to this discussion is Ferdinand Porsche, who in the 1930s supervised the building the world's largest auto factory to build the world's most popular car ever, based on a user-friendly design (for its time!) with a revolutionary air-cooled boxer motor made of magnesium light alloy, rear-mounted on a backbone chassis with revolutionary metallurgy in its torsion bars, that weighed only 1800 pounds and could be left all winter in the snow with no anti-freeze . . . etc., etc.

    In other words, anything is possible, including revolutionary technical transformations, if the competent people can be gathered around the ideas and there are funds available. But I agree with [B]Dr. Milmoss[/B] that pipe dreams can't be distinguished from reasonable speculations from this distance. By the way, Porsche visited the Ford plant before laying out the factory in Wolfsburg.
  • Reply 115 of 169
    dr millmossdr millmoss Posts: 5,403member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wigby View Post

     



    So you're saying you know about as much as me because neither one of us knows what Apple is doing.

     

    We both have opinions and that's cool. But believe it or not, Apple has been telegraphing their intentions for the past year or two. Do you really think that Jony Ive's quotes and responses about the automobile industry and current car design during lengthy Apple Watch interviews are just random or fabricated by the author? There are a lot of floating out there. He and other Apple employees are asked questions about all kinds of things and never expound on them unless they want to or need to. So if it's pipe-dream season, Apple is helping to feed the dream.


     

    Since when has Apple ever telegraphed any intentions?

  • Reply 116 of 169
    wigbywigby Posts: 692member
    Since when has Apple ever telegraphed any intentions?

    Perhaps you remember Tim Cook talking about Apple TV as a hobby for years and then slowly revealing more interest in TV as a business that will be announced for developers next month. They've also talked about the wearables market favorably long before announcing AppleWatch. Apple has created a narrative that Jony Ive is a watch and car enthusiast. That wasn't fabricated by Apple fans who really want a car.

    I know we're all just speculating here but you have to be a fool to believe they haven't already looked into cars, search engines, about a dozen different smart devices for the home, and much more more. Apple has been increasing R&D every year and have only introduced one new product line in the past 5 years. They might trash the apple car project altogether but we all know they've at least looked into it. No one is saying Aplle car would ever be released before 2020. That is a long time away for the tech industry. Industries could crumble and rise in that time so it's rather silly to assume Appe has no interest in a car and will never have interest in a car.

    Like the smart watch and virtual reality, in 5 years time, every major tech company will be unveiling their take on personal transportation. Yes, there will be an Amazon service, a Facebook service and of course a Google service all centered around autonomous vehicles for private or mass transportation. And everyone will be asking Apple where is your car. What will they say? You all thought we wouldn't do a watch like everyone else and we didn't? Oh, that's right, they did.
  • Reply 117 of 169
    dr millmossdr millmoss Posts: 5,403member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wigby View Post





    Perhaps you remember Tim Cook talking about Apple TV as a hobby for years and then slowly revealing more interest in TV as a business that will be announced for developers next month. They've also talked about the wearables market favorably long before announcing AppleWatch. Apple has created a narrative that Jony Ive is a watch and car enthusiast. That wasn't fabricated by Apple fans who really want a car.



    I know we're all just speculating here but you have to be a fool to believe they haven't already looked into cars, search engines, about a dozen different smart devices for the home, and much more more. Apple has been increasing R&D every year and have only introduced one new product line in the past 5 years. They might trash the apple car project altogether but we all know they've at least looked into it. No one is saying Aplle car would ever be released before 2020. That is a long time away for the tech industry. Industries could crumble and rise in that time so it's rather silly to assume Appe has no interest in a car and will never have interest in a car.



    Like the smart watch and virtual reality, in 5 years time, every major tech company will be unveiling their take on personal transportation. Yes, there will be an Amazon service, a Facebook service and of course a Google service all centered around autonomous vehicles for private or mass transportation. And everyone will be asking Apple where is your car. What will they say? You all thought we wouldn't do a watch like everyone else and we didn't? Oh, that's right, they did.



    It was actually Steve Jobs who first described Apple TV as a "hobby." Why? To limit expectations for what they would actually accomplish in the TV market. And limited the accomplishments certainly have been. Do you remember all the hoopla over Apple's pending TV? That speculation was the hot topic for a year or so. It was definitely going to happen, many were saying. Prices, resolutions, and screen sizes were being hotly debated. All gone and forgotten now. Lesson learned? Apparently not.

     

    Tim Cook did refer to wearables in one interview before the release of Apple Watch, that is true. But that's a long way from being a signal for any particular product, though. If anything, Apple is even more secretive under Cook than it was under Jobs.

     

    That said, we know Apple already has an automotive product, CarPlay (though more in theory than reality). The fact that they've gotten so little traction for CarPlay does not suggest to me that they're instead planning on going for the whole enchilada, any more than their limited success with Apple TV suggested that they were going into the manufacturing of TVs. 

     

    At some point the application of some basic logic and history is helpful. Apple Watch took somewhere on the order of 4+ years to develop, and this product was in Apple's wheelhouse. It leveraged off a lot of institutional knowledge and experience. Automobiles are orders of magnitude more complex, massively more expensive to tool up and manufacture, and more to the point, is industry in which Apple has zero practical experience. The evidence for them doing anything more complicated than continuing to develop CarPlay is so paltry and over-extrapolated as to be laughable. But people will talk about how Apple can completely reinvent any industry they set their sights on. Well, we can all want it -- but to expect it is another thing.

  • Reply 118 of 169
    wigbywigby Posts: 692member

    It was actually Steve Jobs who first described Apple TV as a "hobby." Why? To limit expectations for what they would actually accomplish in the TV market. And limited the accomplishments certainly have been. Do you remember all the hoopla over Apple's pending TV? That speculation was the hot topic for a year or so. It was definitely going to happen, many were saying. Prices, resolutions, and screen sizes were being hotly debated. All gone and forgotten now. Lesson learned? Apparently not.

    Tim Cook did refer to wearables in one interview before the release of Apple Watch, that is true. But that's a long way from being a signal for any particular product, though. If anything, Apple is even more secretive under Cook than it was under Jobs.

    That said, we know Apple already has an automotive product, CarPlay (though more in theory than reality). The fact that they've gotten so little traction for CarPlay does not suggest to me that they're instead planning on going for the whole enchilada, any more than their limited success with Apple TV suggested that they were going into the manufacturing of TVs. 

    At some point the application of some basic logic and history is helpful. Apple Watch took somewhere on the order of 4+ years to develop, and this product was in Apple's wheelhouse. It leveraged off a lot of institutional knowledge and experience. Automobiles are orders of magnitude more complex, massively more expensive to tool up and manufacture, and more to the point, is industry in which Apple has zero practical experience. The evidence for them doing anything more complicated than continuing to develop CarPlay is so paltry and over-extrapolated as to be laughable. But people will talk about how Apple can completely reinvent any industry they set their sights on. Well, we can all want it -- but to expect it is another thing.

    You're right. I'm sure Apple is poaching Tesla engineers 5:1 for CarPlay. ;)
  • Reply 119 of 169
    dr millmossdr millmoss Posts: 5,403member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wigby View Post





    You're right. I'm sure Apple is poaching Tesla engineers 5:1 for CarPlay. image



    If that's the best you can do, then I guess we are done here.

  • Reply 120 of 169
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,985member
    wigby wrote: »
    You're right. I'm sure Apple is poaching Tesla engineers 5:1 for CarPlay. ;)

    Learn to read. Tesla is poaching 5 times as many as Apple is, not vice versa.
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