Whiners. I've seen bag searches elsewhere and people just submitted and it was done in a minute. Most people believe that shoplifting is primarily done by customers when, on the average, 80% of the time it is done by employees and Apple makes "small stuff" too. How would these people do it if they were in charge?
They are hardly whining for wanting to be compensated for a company, not employee, required task.
Your 80% shoplifting statistic is total bullshit. "On average" haha, give me your source.
No they are not. The issue was always that Apple was imposing on their employees time while not paying them for it. If Apple had done the right thing and had them clock-off after the security checks were performed, that would have been the ethical and appropriate thing to do and there never would have been an issue.
It's quite Ironic - the security checks are due to suspicions of employees stealing from Apple and involved Apple effectively stealing from their lowest paid employees.
No they are not. The issue was always that Apple was imposing on their employees time while not paying them for it. If Apple had done the right thing and had them clock-off after the security checks were performed, that would have been the ethical and appropriate thing to do and there never would have been an issue.
It's quite Ironic - the security checks are due to suspicions of employees stealing from Apple and involved Apple effectively stealing from their lowest paid employees.
Incorrect. At most electronic retailers you clock out on a PC in the store then the bag check is performed at the exit. Best buy I know for a fact does this. They even check your magazines as you leave to make sure you aren't slipping bills into the pages. They don't play around because it IS fact that employees do make up a huge percentage of the theft that occurs inside of stores. Hence, the bag check. It's common practice in most retailers. If you don't want time wasted then don't bring a bag / purse while working your shift. Many people do this because they value their time. Lawsuit is moot.
No they are not. The issue was always that Apple was imposing on their employees time while not paying them for it. If Apple had done the right thing and had them clock-off after the security checks were performed, that would have been the ethical and appropriate thing to do and there never would have been an issue.
It's quite Ironic - the security checks are due to suspicions of employees stealing from Apple and involved Apple effectively stealing from their lowest paid employees.
they're not working during security check, numbnut. No one gets paid for doing no work. Go to department stores and see how they do that: fucking same thing. Apple do nothing different than any retailer in entire US and maybe the world too. Go sue them all.
Please, every office I've ever worked at has had the same policy. You go in, you do your work, and as you're leaving everything gets searched to see if you're taking home pens, paper, office equipment, computers, etc. Everyone I've ever known, from doctors to lawyers to engineers, all have to deal with the same shit.
Oh wait, no, they don't. Retail employees need to unionize and stop this shit. Yes, theft is an issue. But so is treating everyone like a criminal.
No they are not. The issue was always that Apple was imposing on their employees time while not paying them for it. If Apple had done the right thing and had them clock-off after the security checks were performed, that would have been the ethical and appropriate thing to do and there never would have been an issue.
It's quite Ironic - the security checks are due to suspicions of employees stealing from Apple and involved Apple effectively stealing from their lowest paid employees.
Unless Apple requires an employee to bring items to work in a bag that must be checked, then it is on the employees time that that bag must be checked on the way out. Small lunch bags or ice chest are not an issue as those only requires security to take a quick glance into them. It's the search of a backpacks or large purses that consumes time.
If this wasn't the case, then every employee would bring a large bag or backpack to work because they know they will get paid for the time it takes to search all the employees with large bags and backpacks. And if this was a union shop, the union would encourage their members to do such a thing.
The Supreme Courts have already ruled against the employees in cases of searches done off the clock, when the search is not part of the employees job description. Apple employees are not above the Supreme Court.
they're not working during security check, numbnut. No one gets paid for doing no work. Go to department stores and see how they do that: fucking same thing. Apple do nothing different than any retailer in entire US and maybe the world too. Go sue them all.
They are being required by their employer to spend time doing something in their place of work. That would fit a definition of work in most countries on the planet. I don't live in the US so I can't speak for retailers and department stores there, but I very much doubt employers would have the right to search employees outside of their working hours in most civilised countries. In the UK an employer can only subject employees to searches if it is written into their employment contract so it follows that the searches would have to be done during time they are paid for.
This is such a weird US thing - the idea that an employer has a legitimate right to impose on the time of an employee who is paid an hourly rate, without paying them for their time. In the original suit, some of the employees were claiming they had to regularly wait half an hour after clocking off before the searches were done. If true, I don't think that is acceptable.
The complaint is about them being paid for that time while the bag search is taking place. With the bag searches you've seen done elsewhere were the staff compensated for the delay, or expected to wait past the end of their shift?
I would bet nearly all employers that do searches, do it off the clock. The Supreme Court is on their side and has been since 1947.
And there may be another reason why searches are done after the employee clock out. If they do the search while the employee is still on the clock and find a stolen item, then the employee can argue that he's still on the clock and therefore the item is not stolen. It's like how a shoplifter must be apprehended after leaving the store and not while he's still walking around the store with the item already in his pocket.
Actually the post about employees theft is higher than customer theft is true. Even my local Costco will stand behind that fact. I asked the manager "why do some Costcos have their hard drives out where you can grab it and take it to the register with other items purchased and some Costcos make me fill out a piece of paper, pay for the drive at the register THEN go wait at the cage after checking out to get my hd. He said "since Costcos are franchised some owners have such high employee theft rate (by the way the technical term is called SHRINKAGE) that they make everyone -customers and employees - go to the cage to collect it and then they check you again as you leave the store checking your receipt too - especially employees! I was shocked. That's sad. I hate to say it but I only go to the Costcos that have the had out in the store. It's a hassle to stand in two lines especially two long lines at Costcos.
My local BestBuys are even worse. If I have a backpack and leave the store they check it every time. One time I left my water at the counter when I was checking out. I had just at left the guard still in the store... literally turned around and told him "oh I forgot my water" walked back, grabbed it and they checked my bag again.
It's a way of life unfortunately and anyone who dreams otherwise has never owned a business and watched their profit walk out the door literally. Employees take shit all the time and that's a fact.
Actually the post about employees theft is higher than customer theft is true. Even my local Costco will stand behind that fact. I asked the manager "why do some Costcos have their hard drives out where you can grab it and take it to the register with other items purchased and some Costcos make me fill out a piece of paper, pay for the drive at the register THEN go wait at the cage after checking out to get my hd. He said "since Costcos are franchised some owners have such high employee theft rate (by the way the technical term is called SHRINKAGE) that they make everyone -customers and employees - go to the cage to collect it and then they check you again as you leave the store checking your receipt too - especially employees! I was shocked. That's sad. I hate to say it but I only go to the Costcos that have the had out in the store. It's a hassle to stand in two lines especially two long lines at Costcos.
My local BestBuys are even worse. If I have a backpack and leave the store they check it every time. One time I left my water at the counter when I was checking out. I had just at left the guard still in the store... literally turned around and told him "oh I forgot my water" walked back, grabbed it and they checked my bag again.
It's a way of life unfortunately and anyone who dreams otherwise has never owned a business and watched their profit walk out the door literally. Employees take shit all the time and that's a fact.
Customer bag searches are a bad idea. Sometimes there are more important things than profit.
Rediculous... Absolutely normal practice for almost ALL retail! You guys aren't special just because you work for Apple!
Although yes, they should have been getting paid for it. You definitely can't blame Apple with the price of Apple watches and the size.
And some of Apples stuff is rather pricey compared to other retailers.
Why aren't these employees also complaining about the uncompensated time between when they walk out the front door of their home and they get to work? And the time at the end of the day that it takes them to get back home?
They are being required by their employer to spend time doing something in their place of work. That would fit a definition of work in most countries on the planet. I don't live in the US so I can't speak for retailers and department stores there, but I very much doubt employers would have the right to search employees outside of their working hours in most civilised countries. In the UK an employer can only subject employees to searches if it is written into their employment contract so it follows that the searches would have to be done during time they are paid for.
This is such a weird US thing - the idea that an employer has a legitimate right to impose on the time of an employee who is paid an hourly rate, without paying them for their time. In the original suit, some of the employees were claiming they had to regularly wait half an hour after clocking off before the searches were done. If true, I don't think that is acceptable.
I don't know about Apple Stores, but where I use to work, only employees with backpacks and large purses or bags were required to wait for searches. The vast majority of employees had no such items that needed to be searched. These employees left in separate lines. If they had a small lunch box or ice chest, then they just opened it when they pass the security guard monitoring the line. They didn't even have to stop walking. And there were over 300 employees leaving per shift. And it didn't take more than 10 minutes for all the employees to leave. Including the ones that had to wait to have their bags checked.
So the solution was easy for most employees. If they didn't want to wait, on their own time, in order to leave work …………. don't bring an unnecessary backpack or large bag to work.
I know there are some employees that needs to bring a change of clothes or books because they have another job or school after their job at Apple and they commuted by bus. But this is not Apple's responsibility. Apple is letting them bring a backpack or large bag that isn't required for their Apple job, into their workplace. So it should be on the employees time that these items are searched.
The practice, as others, have noted, quite common. When I worked for an art museum there was a bag check even though virtually nothing on display would fit inside a pack.
In the end, most searches accomplish little. They are embarrassing and soon become a superficial formality. And if someone really wanted to steal, it wouldn't be hard to come up with a secret compartment.
It actually makes more sense to screen employees for a criminal record. Absent that, the risk is small. The art museum where I worked did that and employee/employee theft was almost unthinkable.
As much as I feel for the employees who felt like they were treated poorly, and also understand the needs of companies to protect from losses, my question is...how much shrinkage / theft was Apple seeing? It must have been significant enough to even start the search policy, and if it wasn't, then Apple was indeed treating employees as if they were thieves. As is typical in society, there are going to be a small number of people who make bad choices and do things like steal from their employers, but the vast majority of employees are going to do the right thing.
I would venture to guess that Apple stores attract, for the most part, a slightly different employee, much like us on the boards who have a passion for Apple, and would not even think of stealing. Sure, there will be the bad eggs who think they could start working there so that they could steal and sell hot Apple products, but again, that would not be the typical or majority of employees.
It’s too bad employers cannot trust their employees, and with good reason. American culture has degenerated into an entitlement hellhole. The culture teaches you that all employers are evil and exploit their workers and therefore you entitle yourself to steal what you think should be yours anyway. I mean just look at the culture that says it’s okay to steal music and software because the RIAA and MPAA are labeled as evil. We see that attitude in AI every time there’s an article about it. Add the fact that Apple products are premium products with premium prices and the temptation/entitlement factor goes way up. A retired friend of mine works for Walmart (because he wants out of the house, not because he needs to) Employee theft is rampant,even more than the shoplifters. Look at airline baggage handlers rifling through passenger possessions.
Bottom line, no employer can trust their employees these days. It’s a sad comment on American culture as it exists these days.
Please, every office I've ever worked at has had the same policy. You go in, you do your work, and as you're leaving everything gets searched to see if you're taking home pens, paper, office equipment, computers, etc. Everyone I've ever known, from doctors to lawyers to engineers, all have to deal with the same shit.
Oh wait, no, they don't. Retail employees need to unionize and stop this shit. Yes, theft is an issue. But so is treating everyone like a criminal.
Awesome post -- well said!
Seems to me that it ought to be possible to address theft by employees in a more targeted way. Given modern inventory control technology, Apple ought to be able to determine very quickly if there is a statistically significant increase in missing inventory at specific stores, and perhaps even if the stuff goes missing on certain days but not others. That could be the basis of a more targeted investigation in specific stores and perhaps during specific shifts.
Back in the 80s my mother was able to catch am embezzling cashier at our family's store using technology far less sophisticated than what Apple has available. They can definitely address this without treating everyone like a criminal.
Regarding the argument that "all other retailers do this" --- since when does Apple seek to be like "all other" anything? Do you really want Apple to use Best Buy and Walmart as their role models? I don't. I want the best possible service experience at Apple stores, and I think that means Apple needs to be very selective in who they hire, pay those people well, and treat them with respect. if they do that, then theft by employees should not be a systematic problem that requires techniques like this.
It almost certainly is just made up however, non staff members are unlikely to be able to steal iDevices as they are all locked away.
So apart from ram raiders and extremely good thieves, nearly all iDevices stolen from an Apple store must be by staff.
As much as your argument is logical, is it not accurate.
I currently work in Apple Retail, and as much as statistics will change based on location, in the time I have worked there, there have been no serialised products stolen by staff in our store. They are well tracked, and the staff know this. But there are thieves that will just rip a display iPhone off a table and run.
Comments
Whiners. I've seen bag searches elsewhere and people just submitted and it was done in a minute. Most people believe that shoplifting is primarily done by customers when, on the average, 80% of the time it is done by employees and Apple makes "small stuff" too. How would these people do it if they were in charge?
They are hardly whining for wanting to be compensated for a company, not employee, required task.
Your 80% shoplifting statistic is total bullshit. "On average" haha, give me your source.
And these people would probably want fairness.
Deadbeats!
No they are not. The issue was always that Apple was imposing on their employees time while not paying them for it. If Apple had done the right thing and had them clock-off after the security checks were performed, that would have been the ethical and appropriate thing to do and there never would have been an issue.
It's quite Ironic - the security checks are due to suspicions of employees stealing from Apple and involved Apple effectively stealing from their lowest paid employees.
Please, every office I've ever worked at has had the same policy. You go in, you do your work, and as you're leaving everything gets searched to see if you're taking home pens, paper, office equipment, computers, etc. Everyone I've ever known, from doctors to lawyers to engineers, all have to deal with the same shit.
Oh wait, no, they don't. Retail employees need to unionize and stop this shit. Yes, theft is an issue. But so is treating everyone like a criminal.
No they are not. The issue was always that Apple was imposing on their employees time while not paying them for it. If Apple had done the right thing and had them clock-off after the security checks were performed, that would have been the ethical and appropriate thing to do and there never would have been an issue.
It's quite Ironic - the security checks are due to suspicions of employees stealing from Apple and involved Apple effectively stealing from their lowest paid employees.
Unless Apple requires an employee to bring items to work in a bag that must be checked, then it is on the employees time that that bag must be checked on the way out. Small lunch bags or ice chest are not an issue as those only requires security to take a quick glance into them. It's the search of a backpacks or large purses that consumes time.
If this wasn't the case, then every employee would bring a large bag or backpack to work because they know they will get paid for the time it takes to search all the employees with large bags and backpacks. And if this was a union shop, the union would encourage their members to do such a thing.
The Supreme Courts have already ruled against the employees in cases of searches done off the clock, when the search is not part of the employees job description. Apple employees are not above the Supreme Court.
http://www.cnet.com/news/supreme-court-amazon-doesnt-have-to-pay-workers-for-security-check-hours/
they're not working during security check, numbnut. No one gets paid for doing no work. Go to department stores and see how they do that: fucking same thing. Apple do nothing different than any retailer in entire US and maybe the world too. Go sue them all.
They are being required by their employer to spend time doing something in their place of work. That would fit a definition of work in most countries on the planet. I don't live in the US so I can't speak for retailers and department stores there, but I very much doubt employers would have the right to search employees outside of their working hours in most civilised countries. In the UK an employer can only subject employees to searches if it is written into their employment contract so it follows that the searches would have to be done during time they are paid for.
This is such a weird US thing - the idea that an employer has a legitimate right to impose on the time of an employee who is paid an hourly rate, without paying them for their time. In the original suit, some of the employees were claiming they had to regularly wait half an hour after clocking off before the searches were done. If true, I don't think that is acceptable.
The complaint is about them being paid for that time while the bag search is taking place. With the bag searches you've seen done elsewhere were the staff compensated for the delay, or expected to wait past the end of their shift?
I would bet nearly all employers that do searches, do it off the clock. The Supreme Court is on their side and has been since 1947.
http://www.benefitspro.com/2015/01/05/amazon-ruling-to-have-widespread-employee-impact?t=employer-paid&page=2
And there may be another reason why searches are done after the employee clock out. If they do the search while the employee is still on the clock and find a stolen item, then the employee can argue that he's still on the clock and therefore the item is not stolen. It's like how a shoplifter must be apprehended after leaving the store and not while he's still walking around the store with the item already in his pocket.
My local BestBuys are even worse. If I have a backpack and leave the store they check it every time. One time I left my water at the counter when I was checking out. I had just at left the guard still in the store... literally turned around and told him "oh I forgot my water" walked back, grabbed it and they checked my bag again.
It's a way of life unfortunately and anyone who dreams otherwise has never owned a business and watched their profit walk out the door literally. Employees take shit all the time and that's a fact.
Customer bag searches are a bad idea. Sometimes there are more important things than profit.
And some of Apples stuff is rather pricey compared to other retailers.
They are being required by their employer to spend time doing something in their place of work. That would fit a definition of work in most countries on the planet. I don't live in the US so I can't speak for retailers and department stores there, but I very much doubt employers would have the right to search employees outside of their working hours in most civilised countries. In the UK an employer can only subject employees to searches if it is written into their employment contract so it follows that the searches would have to be done during time they are paid for.
This is such a weird US thing - the idea that an employer has a legitimate right to impose on the time of an employee who is paid an hourly rate, without paying them for their time. In the original suit, some of the employees were claiming they had to regularly wait half an hour after clocking off before the searches were done. If true, I don't think that is acceptable.
I don't know about Apple Stores, but where I use to work, only employees with backpacks and large purses or bags were required to wait for searches. The vast majority of employees had no such items that needed to be searched. These employees left in separate lines. If they had a small lunch box or ice chest, then they just opened it when they pass the security guard monitoring the line. They didn't even have to stop walking. And there were over 300 employees leaving per shift. And it didn't take more than 10 minutes for all the employees to leave. Including the ones that had to wait to have their bags checked.
So the solution was easy for most employees. If they didn't want to wait, on their own time, in order to leave work …………. don't bring an unnecessary backpack or large bag to work.
I know there are some employees that needs to bring a change of clothes or books because they have another job or school after their job at Apple and they commuted by bus. But this is not Apple's responsibility. Apple is letting them bring a backpack or large bag that isn't required for their Apple job, into their workplace. So it should be on the employees time that these items are searched.
In the end, most searches accomplish little. They are embarrassing and soon become a superficial formality. And if someone really wanted to steal, it wouldn't be hard to come up with a secret compartment.
It actually makes more sense to screen employees for a criminal record. Absent that, the risk is small. The art museum where I worked did that and employee/employee theft was almost unthinkable.
As much as I feel for the employees who felt like they were treated poorly, and also understand the needs of companies to protect from losses, my question is...how much shrinkage / theft was Apple seeing? It must have been significant enough to even start the search policy, and if it wasn't, then Apple was indeed treating employees as if they were thieves. As is typical in society, there are going to be a small number of people who make bad choices and do things like steal from their employers, but the vast majority of employees are going to do the right thing.
I would venture to guess that Apple stores attract, for the most part, a slightly different employee, much like us on the boards who have a passion for Apple, and would not even think of stealing. Sure, there will be the bad eggs who think they could start working there so that they could steal and sell hot Apple products, but again, that would not be the typical or majority of employees.
It’s too bad employers cannot trust their employees, and with good reason. American culture has degenerated into an entitlement hellhole. The culture teaches you that all employers are evil and exploit their workers and therefore you entitle yourself to steal what you think should be yours anyway. I mean just look at the culture that says it’s okay to steal music and software because the RIAA and MPAA are labeled as evil. We see that attitude in AI every time there’s an article about it. Add the fact that Apple products are premium products with premium prices and the temptation/entitlement factor goes way up. A retired friend of mine works for Walmart (because he wants out of the house, not because he needs to) Employee theft is rampant,even more than the shoplifters. Look at airline baggage handlers rifling through passenger possessions.
Bottom line, no employer can trust their employees these days. It’s a sad comment on American culture as it exists these days.
Please, every office I've ever worked at has had the same policy. You go in, you do your work, and as you're leaving everything gets searched to see if you're taking home pens, paper, office equipment, computers, etc. Everyone I've ever known, from doctors to lawyers to engineers, all have to deal with the same shit.
Oh wait, no, they don't. Retail employees need to unionize and stop this shit. Yes, theft is an issue. But so is treating everyone like a criminal.
Awesome post -- well said!
Seems to me that it ought to be possible to address theft by employees in a more targeted way. Given modern inventory control technology, Apple ought to be able to determine very quickly if there is a statistically significant increase in missing inventory at specific stores, and perhaps even if the stuff goes missing on certain days but not others. That could be the basis of a more targeted investigation in specific stores and perhaps during specific shifts.
Back in the 80s my mother was able to catch am embezzling cashier at our family's store using technology far less sophisticated than what Apple has available. They can definitely address this without treating everyone like a criminal.
Regarding the argument that "all other retailers do this" --- since when does Apple seek to be like "all other" anything? Do you really want Apple to use Best Buy and Walmart as their role models? I don't. I want the best possible service experience at Apple stores, and I think that means Apple needs to be very selective in who they hire, pay those people well, and treat them with respect. if they do that, then theft by employees should not be a systematic problem that requires techniques like this.
Your 80% shoplifting statistic is total bullshit. "On average" haha, give me your source.
It almost certainly is just made up however, non staff members are unlikely to be able to steal iDevices as they are all locked away.
So apart from ram raiders and extremely good thieves, nearly all iDevices stolen from an Apple store must be by staff.
It almost certainly is just made up however, non staff members are unlikely to be able to steal iDevices as they are all locked away.
So apart from ram raiders and extremely good thieves, nearly all iDevices stolen from an Apple store must be by staff.
As much as your argument is logical, is it not accurate.
I currently work in Apple Retail, and as much as statistics will change based on location, in the time I have worked there, there have been no serialised products stolen by staff in our store. They are well tracked, and the staff know this. But there are thieves that will just rip a display iPhone off a table and run.