Originally Posted by zoetmbThere are also other ways around the security issue as others have suggested, such as having a separate locker area or RFI controls.
Obviously, no employee is walking out with a computer box - it's too large. The issues are phones, iPads, watches, etc. But if they're kept in a secure place with some methodology that only releases a unit when there's a sale, it seems to me that it would be (or should be) impossible for an employee to steal a unit. Maybe they're stored in some kind of vending machine and the employee must scan a barcode from a sale in order for the machine to release the unit.
Never say never. Rare as it might be, I'm sure that employees have gotten away with large cases. The small items are obviously better targets. As far as that machine that dispenses product -- who/how is the product going to get into that machine? There is almost always an opportunity for theft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_dog
how about creating a separate employee area (with changing area, lockers, restroom, etc) that is separate from the store. an entrance to the store with metal detector & security would settle this nicely. employees would be allowed in with their uniform (t-shirt & jeans) and nothing else, perhaps an i.d.
This would be a great solution but retail space is quite expensive. Apple's stores have the highest retail sales per square foot so would you think they would give some of that up for a controlled area? Most locations would not have the ability to reasonably retrofit one in.
Never say never. Rare as it might be, I'm sure that employees have gotten away with large cases. The small items are obviously better targets. As far as that machine that dispenses product -- who/how is the product going to get into that machine? There is almost always an opportunity for theft.
Yep.
The stock area back to the loading dock is also a big risk. It's common for internal thieves to pull items right off the truck, or to stuff them under trash in a large bin on the way back to the compactor. I work at a company where everyone is vetted... I can't say what I mean, but you know what I mean. VETTED. We had a case of new laptops in a back room sit there for two weeks. When IT went to assign them to their new users, all of the boxes were empty.
Note that we have employees here making over $200k/year who are subjected to regular random bag checks upon exit. I think their dignity is fine.
In the end, most searches accomplish little. They are embarrassing and soon become a superficial formality. And if someone really wanted to steal, it wouldn't be hard to come up with a secret compartment.
It's called "deterence". Same reason Costco checks your cart and receipt when you walk out the store. It seems useless because no one ever gets caught. But no one gets caught because no one tries to sneak out stuff because, --yup, you got it-- because of the 'useless' security check when you walk out of the store.
The people commenting about the bag searches are ignoring the fact that they aren't paid for the time they are waiting to get their bags searched, which according to the complain was upwards of 10-15 minutes. The complain't wasn't about the search, but rather, the fact that at the time they were being searched, they weren't being paid.
I wonder how many people commenting here are fine working for free.
Do you have a citation for this? There are certainly considerable losses from cases, mice, cables, phone mounts, etc. And that's just the merchandise.
Sorry for not being more explicit. My point was that it's easier to steal the small stuff. That would include mice, cables, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW
Unless Apple requires an employee to bring items to work in a bag that must be checked, then it is on the employees time that that bag must be checked on the way out. Small lunch bags or ice chest are not an issue as those only requires security to take a quick glance into them. It's the search of a backpacks or large purses that consumes time.
If this wasn't the case, then every employee would bring a large bag or backpack to work because they know they will get paid for the time it takes to search all the employees with large bags and backpacks. And if this was a union shop, the union would encourage their members to do such a thing.
The Supreme Courts have already ruled against the employees in cases of searches done off the clock, when the search is not part of the employees job description. Apple employees are not above the Supreme Court.
Yes, it's true that the Supreme Court ruled against this and that is the current law of the land, but IMO, the Supreme Court got it wrong and it's not the first time. And nothing stops a decent employer for paying for the employee's time in this circumstance. IMO, it's either my time or your (the employer's) time. If it's your time, I should get paid.
I charge my clients from the second I walk into their building to the second I leave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU
The solution is simple. If you don't want a bag search, then quit. Don't work in retail if you don't want your bag searched as you walk out the door. I mean that's an occupational hazard. You know what you're getting.
Bullshit. According to your logic, any employee should take any abuse that any employer gives because it's part of the job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW
That's not what the Supreme Court ruled. Unanimously, mind you.
The logic is that if a bag that needs to be searched is not required by Apple to do your job, then it is on the employees time if that bag needs to be searched when brought into and out of the workplace.
But those that don't carry any such bag into the workplace should not be force to wait for those that do. They should be able to leave as soon as they clock out. Only those carry in and out a bag that needs to be searched, should have to wait until their bag is searched. And on their time, not Apple's.
As I wrote above, I think the Supreme Court got it wrong. And I think they got it wrong because it's not unreasonable, especially today, for employees to need to carry a bag (if only to carry the stuff that Apple already sold them). Certainly, Apple wants employees who actually use their products. If you carry a computer or an iPad, you're generally carrying a bag for it. And that's aside from people who need to carry a bag to hold personal items.
IMO, it's incumbent upon the employer to make the bag check quick. If it takes a minute or two, fine. But once it starts getting up to 15 minutes, that's 75 to 90 minutes a week. That's 59 to 70 hours a year, based on someone who works 47 weeks. Why should an employee have to eat that?
The people commenting about the bag searches are ignoring the fact that they aren't paid for the time they are waiting to get their bags searched, which according to the complain was upwards of 10-15 minutes. The complain't wasn't about the search, but rather, the fact that at the time they were being searched, they weren't being paid.
I wonder how many people commenting here are fine working for free.
I worked 66 hours last week for the same money as when I work 40 hours. Usually I work 40-45 hours. It's just part of what it takes to work here to get the things done that need to get done.
The people commenting about the bag searches are ignoring the fact that they aren't paid for the time they are waiting to get their bags searched, which according to the complain was upwards of 10-15 minutes. The complain't wasn't about the search, but rather, the fact that at the time they were being searched, they weren't being paid.
I wonder how many people commenting here are fine working for free.
And you are ignoring the fact that if a company did not require you to bring a bag full of stuff to work, then they shouldn't pay you for the time it takes to inspect the bag which you insisted on bringing to work even though you knew full well that am inspection will delay your departure from work.
Sorry for not being more explicit. My point was that it's easier to steal the small stuff. That would include mice, cables, etc.
I see. My (unclear) point is that while the electronics are quite small, and very expensive, I'm sure their inventory is tightly controlled, such that losses are rare and carry a significant reaction. A $30 phone case though... smaller than a pair of socks to hide, but (generally) worth a lot more, and inventory is more loosely controlled.
All of you defending suspicion-less searches and unpaid time are real pushovers. I guess if the standards for human decency are lowered on a massive enough scale, abuse becomes not only acceptable, but it also becomes unacceptable to question or challenge it.
In my two decades of employment I've never been drug tested or had my possessions searched. I'm not going to entrust my employment to someone who doesn't trust me and treat me as someone who is equally committed to make the business succeed as though I had founded the business myself. The sad thing is, some people reading that will think they're playing the game better than me by not having those standards. Those people are welcome to their opinion and to my contempt.
All of you defending suspicion-less searches and unpaid time are real pushovers. I guess if the standards for human decency are lowered on a massive enough scale, abuse becomes not only acceptable, but it also becomes unacceptable to question or challenge it.
In my two decades of employment I've never been drug tested or had my possessions searched. I'm not going to entrust my employment to someone who doesn't trust me and treat me as someone who is equally committed to make the business succeed as though I had founded the business myself. The sad thing is, some people reading that will think they're playing the game better than me by not having those standards. Those people are welcome to their opinion and to my contempt.
This is more of a by-industry thing. When I was in games, I had none of these concerns (other than unpaid overtime occasionally). In the Defense industry, if you don't want to be tested or searched, you won't work. In retail, same thing. There are great jobs in industries that don't have these policies in place, and the industries that do have them in place are not going to overtake the rest of them. This isn't a growing problem, but enjoy your outrage.
I don't get it, if these people don't like being searched than why do they work there. I personally wouldn't work for a retail store that didn't trust me and it's more than apparent that these people share my opinions, so why are they still their? Apple isn't going to change their policies so the only my people who will win will be the lawyer's
The employees need to be paid for the time involved, but "embarrassing," "demeaning" and "disturbing."? Garbage. They work in retail in an environment where small expensive items are all over the place. Bag search is standard policy in just about any retail business and it should be. Don't like it? Go work in a Microsoft store. At least then if they steal something Microsoft will be happy to know at least someone is buying there hardware and using it.
Apple should vary the search policy by store. They probably feel they can't because of potential "protected class" liability.
Certain Apple Stores likely have 0 employee theft. Certain Apple Stores likely have $millions in employee theft. Apple knows exactly which stores have the problem.
Likely, New York City stores have sophisticated theft gangs within the Apple employee base itself.
They are being required by their employer to spend time doing something in their place of work. That would fit a definition of work in most countries on the planet. I don't live in the US so I can't speak for retailers and department stores there, but I very much doubt employers would have the right to search employees outside of their working hours in most civilised countries. In the UK an employer can only subject employees to searches if it is written into their employment contract so it follows that the searches would have to be done during time they are paid for.
This is such a weird US thing - the idea that an employer has a legitimate right to impose on the time of an employee who is paid an hourly rate, without paying them for their time. In the original suit, some of the employees were claiming they had to regularly wait half an hour after clocking off before the searches were done. If true, I don't think that is acceptable.
That's a common practice here. I used to work at Macy's when I was in college and they checked every single bag AFTER we clocked out at security gate. Why? Because according to study done by Macy's 98% stolen items were done by employees. Yep.
When I worked for Apple, my concern wasn't with the time it took to conduct the search (though it sometimes was a while), but the fact that it was carried out in the store in plain sight of customers. It could easily have taken place behind a door leading into the store.
Oh, go work for Intel (if you're qualified), they search not only you bag, but pockets, shoes and even scan your ass at Security gate. Yup, there's been the case workers stole the new designed chip at Intel. So, it's policies at each company across US. Take it or leave it. You can go to work on the farm and no one will check your bag. Your choice.
The employees need to be paid for the time involved, but "embarrassing," "demeaning" and "disturbing."? Garbage. They work in retail in an environment where small expensive items are all over the place. Bag search is standard policy in just about any retail business and it should be. Don't like it? Go work in a Microsoft store. At least then if they steal something Microsoft will be happy to know at least someone is buying there hardware and using it.
Name "involved". Does it include 30-min shitting at work restrooms that many people do?
I'm going to disagree with most of the posts here. I think that you treat your employees with respect. If you don't trust them, don't hire them in the first place or get rid of them if you've already hired them.
There are also other ways around the security issue as others have suggested, such as having a separate locker area or RFI controls.
Obviously, no employee is walking out with a computer box - it's too large. The issues are phones, iPads, watches, etc. But if they're kept in a secure place with some methodology that only releases a unit when there's a sale, it seems to me that it would be (or should be) impossible for an employee to steal a unit. Maybe they're stored in some kind of vending machine and the employee must scan a barcode from a sale in order for the machine to release the unit. Or maybe, just maybe, it's as simple as using an employee to monitor the removal of all stocked items. What will that cost Apple - $13 an hour per store? Seems like a bargain if employees are really trying to pilfer stock.
Or you simply record all activity in the stock area and if an item goes missing, you go back and "review the tape" and see if each removal of stock was accompanied by a related sale.
Even without that, with a real-time inventory system, a store should know by 'the next morning' if anything had been stolen.
Although it was decades ago, I worked in retail and there were no bag checks. They did have a plainclothes security person working undercover in the department to see if anyone was stealing anything, but he never found any issues.
Trust doesn't give Apple items back when they're lost. Take the employment or go work at other places where there's no bag check.
Comments
No retailer is immune to theft.
I don't think anyone ever said they were immune to theft. That's absurd. What else do you do with your straw man?
Obviously, no employee is walking out with a computer box - it's too large. The issues are phones, iPads, watches, etc. But if they're kept in a secure place with some methodology that only releases a unit when there's a sale, it seems to me that it would be (or should be) impossible for an employee to steal a unit. Maybe they're stored in some kind of vending machine and the employee must scan a barcode from a sale in order for the machine to release the unit.
Never say never. Rare as it might be, I'm sure that employees have gotten away with large cases. The small items are obviously better targets. As far as that machine that dispenses product -- who/how is the product going to get into that machine? There is almost always an opportunity for theft.
how about creating a separate employee area (with changing area, lockers, restroom, etc) that is separate from the store. an entrance to the store with metal detector & security would settle this nicely. employees would be allowed in with their uniform (t-shirt & jeans) and nothing else, perhaps an i.d.
This would be a great solution but retail space is quite expensive. Apple's stores have the highest retail sales per square foot so would you think they would give some of that up for a controlled area? Most locations would not have the ability to reasonably retrofit one in.
Never say never. Rare as it might be, I'm sure that employees have gotten away with large cases. The small items are obviously better targets. As far as that machine that dispenses product -- who/how is the product going to get into that machine? There is almost always an opportunity for theft.
Yep.
The stock area back to the loading dock is also a big risk. It's common for internal thieves to pull items right off the truck, or to stuff them under trash in a large bin on the way back to the compactor. I work at a company where everyone is vetted... I can't say what I mean, but you know what I mean. VETTED. We had a case of new laptops in a back room sit there for two weeks. When IT went to assign them to their new users, all of the boxes were empty.
Note that we have employees here making over $200k/year who are subjected to regular random bag checks upon exit. I think their dignity is fine.
In the end, most searches accomplish little. They are embarrassing and soon become a superficial formality. And if someone really wanted to steal, it wouldn't be hard to come up with a secret compartment.
It's called "deterence". Same reason Costco checks your cart and receipt when you walk out the store. It seems useless because no one ever gets caught. But no one gets caught because no one tries to sneak out stuff because, --yup, you got it-- because of the 'useless' security check when you walk out of the store.
I wonder how many people commenting here are fine working for free.
Do you have a citation for this? There are certainly considerable losses from cases, mice, cables, phone mounts, etc. And that's just the merchandise.
Sorry for not being more explicit. My point was that it's easier to steal the small stuff. That would include mice, cables, etc.
Unless Apple requires an employee to bring items to work in a bag that must be checked, then it is on the employees time that that bag must be checked on the way out. Small lunch bags or ice chest are not an issue as those only requires security to take a quick glance into them. It's the search of a backpacks or large purses that consumes time.
If this wasn't the case, then every employee would bring a large bag or backpack to work because they know they will get paid for the time it takes to search all the employees with large bags and backpacks. And if this was a union shop, the union would encourage their members to do such a thing.
The Supreme Courts have already ruled against the employees in cases of searches done off the clock, when the search is not part of the employees job description. Apple employees are not above the Supreme Court.
http://www.cnet.com/news/supreme-court-amazon-doesnt-have-to-pay-workers-for-security-check-hours/
Yes, it's true that the Supreme Court ruled against this and that is the current law of the land, but IMO, the Supreme Court got it wrong and it's not the first time. And nothing stops a decent employer for paying for the employee's time in this circumstance. IMO, it's either my time or your (the employer's) time. If it's your time, I should get paid.
I charge my clients from the second I walk into their building to the second I leave.
The solution is simple. If you don't want a bag search, then quit. Don't work in retail if you don't want your bag searched as you walk out the door. I mean that's an occupational hazard. You know what you're getting.
Bullshit. According to your logic, any employee should take any abuse that any employer gives because it's part of the job.
That's not what the Supreme Court ruled. Unanimously, mind you.
The logic is that if a bag that needs to be searched is not required by Apple to do your job, then it is on the employees time if that bag needs to be searched when brought into and out of the workplace.
But those that don't carry any such bag into the workplace should not be force to wait for those that do. They should be able to leave as soon as they clock out. Only those carry in and out a bag that needs to be searched, should have to wait until their bag is searched. And on their time, not Apple's.
As I wrote above, I think the Supreme Court got it wrong. And I think they got it wrong because it's not unreasonable, especially today, for employees to need to carry a bag (if only to carry the stuff that Apple already sold them). Certainly, Apple wants employees who actually use their products. If you carry a computer or an iPad, you're generally carrying a bag for it. And that's aside from people who need to carry a bag to hold personal items.
IMO, it's incumbent upon the employer to make the bag check quick. If it takes a minute or two, fine. But once it starts getting up to 15 minutes, that's 75 to 90 minutes a week. That's 59 to 70 hours a year, based on someone who works 47 weeks. Why should an employee have to eat that?
The people commenting about the bag searches are ignoring the fact that they aren't paid for the time they are waiting to get their bags searched, which according to the complain was upwards of 10-15 minutes. The complain't wasn't about the search, but rather, the fact that at the time they were being searched, they weren't being paid.
I wonder how many people commenting here are fine working for free.
I worked 66 hours last week for the same money as when I work 40 hours. Usually I work 40-45 hours. It's just part of what it takes to work here to get the things done that need to get done.
The people commenting about the bag searches are ignoring the fact that they aren't paid for the time they are waiting to get their bags searched, which according to the complain was upwards of 10-15 minutes. The complain't wasn't about the search, but rather, the fact that at the time they were being searched, they weren't being paid.
I wonder how many people commenting here are fine working for free.
And you are ignoring the fact that if a company did not require you to bring a bag full of stuff to work, then they shouldn't pay you for the time it takes to inspect the bag which you insisted on bringing to work even though you knew full well that am inspection will delay your departure from work.
Sorry for not being more explicit. My point was that it's easier to steal the small stuff. That would include mice, cables, etc.
I see. My (unclear) point is that while the electronics are quite small, and very expensive, I'm sure their inventory is tightly controlled, such that losses are rare and carry a significant reaction. A $30 phone case though... smaller than a pair of socks to hide, but (generally) worth a lot more, and inventory is more loosely controlled.
This was standard practice during my time at Apple in the mid-2000's, just as it was at any other retailer I worked at in the past.
All of you defending suspicion-less searches and unpaid time are real pushovers. I guess if the standards for human decency are lowered on a massive enough scale, abuse becomes not only acceptable, but it also becomes unacceptable to question or challenge it.
In my two decades of employment I've never been drug tested or had my possessions searched. I'm not going to entrust my employment to someone who doesn't trust me and treat me as someone who is equally committed to make the business succeed as though I had founded the business myself. The sad thing is, some people reading that will think they're playing the game better than me by not having those standards. Those people are welcome to their opinion and to my contempt.
All of you defending suspicion-less searches and unpaid time are real pushovers. I guess if the standards for human decency are lowered on a massive enough scale, abuse becomes not only acceptable, but it also becomes unacceptable to question or challenge it.
In my two decades of employment I've never been drug tested or had my possessions searched. I'm not going to entrust my employment to someone who doesn't trust me and treat me as someone who is equally committed to make the business succeed as though I had founded the business myself. The sad thing is, some people reading that will think they're playing the game better than me by not having those standards. Those people are welcome to their opinion and to my contempt.
This is more of a by-industry thing. When I was in games, I had none of these concerns (other than unpaid overtime occasionally). In the Defense industry, if you don't want to be tested or searched, you won't work. In retail, same thing. There are great jobs in industries that don't have these policies in place, and the industries that do have them in place are not going to overtake the rest of them. This isn't a growing problem, but enjoy your outrage.
The employees need to be paid for the time involved, but "embarrassing," "demeaning" and "disturbing."? Garbage. They work in retail in an environment where small expensive items are all over the place. Bag search is standard policy in just about any retail business and it should be. Don't like it? Go work in a Microsoft store. At least then if they steal something Microsoft will be happy to know at least someone is buying there hardware and using it.
Your contempt? Hahaha.
Apple should vary the search policy by store. They probably feel they can't because of potential "protected class" liability.
Certain Apple Stores likely have 0 employee theft. Certain Apple Stores likely have $millions in employee theft. Apple knows exactly which stores have the problem.
Likely, New York City stores have sophisticated theft gangs within the Apple employee base itself.
Where did you get that from?
They are being required by their employer to spend time doing something in their place of work. That would fit a definition of work in most countries on the planet. I don't live in the US so I can't speak for retailers and department stores there, but I very much doubt employers would have the right to search employees outside of their working hours in most civilised countries. In the UK an employer can only subject employees to searches if it is written into their employment contract so it follows that the searches would have to be done during time they are paid for.
This is such a weird US thing - the idea that an employer has a legitimate right to impose on the time of an employee who is paid an hourly rate, without paying them for their time. In the original suit, some of the employees were claiming they had to regularly wait half an hour after clocking off before the searches were done. If true, I don't think that is acceptable.
That's a common practice here. I used to work at Macy's when I was in college and they checked every single bag AFTER we clocked out at security gate. Why? Because according to study done by Macy's 98% stolen items were done by employees. Yep.
When I worked for Apple, my concern wasn't with the time it took to conduct the search (though it sometimes was a while), but the fact that it was carried out in the store in plain sight of customers. It could easily have taken place behind a door leading into the store.
Oh, go work for Intel (if you're qualified), they search not only you bag, but pockets, shoes and even scan your ass at Security gate. Yup, there's been the case workers stole the new designed chip at Intel. So, it's policies at each company across US. Take it or leave it. You can go to work on the farm and no one will check your bag. Your choice.
The employees need to be paid for the time involved, but "embarrassing," "demeaning" and "disturbing."? Garbage. They work in retail in an environment where small expensive items are all over the place. Bag search is standard policy in just about any retail business and it should be. Don't like it? Go work in a Microsoft store. At least then if they steal something Microsoft will be happy to know at least someone is buying there hardware and using it.
Name "involved". Does it include 30-min shitting at work restrooms that many people do?
I'm going to disagree with most of the posts here. I think that you treat your employees with respect. If you don't trust them, don't hire them in the first place or get rid of them if you've already hired them.
There are also other ways around the security issue as others have suggested, such as having a separate locker area or RFI controls.
Obviously, no employee is walking out with a computer box - it's too large. The issues are phones, iPads, watches, etc. But if they're kept in a secure place with some methodology that only releases a unit when there's a sale, it seems to me that it would be (or should be) impossible for an employee to steal a unit. Maybe they're stored in some kind of vending machine and the employee must scan a barcode from a sale in order for the machine to release the unit. Or maybe, just maybe, it's as simple as using an employee to monitor the removal of all stocked items. What will that cost Apple - $13 an hour per store? Seems like a bargain if employees are really trying to pilfer stock.
Or you simply record all activity in the stock area and if an item goes missing, you go back and "review the tape" and see if each removal of stock was accompanied by a related sale.
Even without that, with a real-time inventory system, a store should know by 'the next morning' if anything had been stolen.
Although it was decades ago, I worked in retail and there were no bag checks. They did have a plainclothes security person working undercover in the department to see if anyone was stealing anything, but he never found any issues.
Trust doesn't give Apple items back when they're lost. Take the employment or go work at other places where there's no bag check.