'iPad Pro' expected this fall, will get Force Touch from new pressure-sensitive Apple stylus

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 95
    thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    ingela wrote: »

    You're both 100% on the same level of myopia that's for sure.

    If you KNOW to dump the mouse, then you KNOW why this is such a great drawing tool. That you need to TRAIN ARTISTS to learn arcane nonsense to get the benefit of yesterday's technology, then you should also know why this would make a far better drawing tool, or in conjunction with other devices/applications.


    More intuitive tools like the iPad pro will prove to make it more accessible and easier for artist and designers to get their work out there  without the need of you two.

    Doubling down on this by either of you two is a  lost cause that will only prove to make both of you look even more foolish.

    What's the matter? You kids forget to take your Ritalin today or what? Calm the F*** down!

    The iPad Pro isn't even on the market and we nor YOU and the other stamping up and down juvenile Rebel Without A Cause knows what it can and cannot do or replace.

    Until that time, we in the Old Fart Club have work to do and ever tighter deadlines to meet. If you were working dare I say for either of us, we would surely respect and share your enthusiasm for everything shiny and new, because yeah, we've been in your shoes more than a few times.... but reality says we've got to get back to work!

    Until the cake is mixed and baked... YA CAN'T EAT IT... nor can you make money with it.

    So let's just wait and see how the iPad and the software apps develop, before tossing out what's currently working and jumping to conclusions of Nirvana.

    Oh and BTW: I've been ahead of every single tech curve for almost 40 years and have the battle scars to prove it. Think about only what I wrote above, and tell me why there's still people that can't be convinced that for a designer and especially a retoucher/compositor, that by consciously not learning to use a Wacom is their biggest road-block to efficient production and perfection.
  • Reply 62 of 95
    cornchipcornchip Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post





    Or the stylus could just be worn to avoid losing it: http://m.instructables.com/id/Edward-Scissorhands-Costume-On-the-cheap/step3/Making-the-scissorhands/

     

    LoL

     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rp2011 View Post

     

     

    Nonsense. Anyone, especially if you use these tools on a daily basis such as myself knows that  the keyboard and mouse combo for art is the least intuitive way to work imaginable. You get the hang of it, you get used to it, you get good at it, but it's in no way the preferred way anyone wants to work.

    And there will be of course shortcut options that are iPad-specific. That's the very least of it. 


     

    Agree.

     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by polymnia View Post





    While I'd be very pleased if you are right, Wacom is a very mature technology/software platform.



    Since this is where I make my living (designer & photo compositor) please understand my skepticism that apple will blow away Wacom. They didn't put Microsoft out of the Office game with iWork. They didn't put adobe out of the photo catalog business with aperture. While Apple has been a great platform on which to double a creative workflow, the creative tools have been less than inspiring to me so far. I suspect most professional Wacom users will skip anything short of true Wacom tech, unless a clear pro-level rival is offered.



    Like I said before: I'd love to be proven wrong and see amazing technology from Apple in the pen input area.

     

    While I think you're right, I think you're also wrong. This is hardware we're talking about. Adobe and M$FT are both entrenched players with massive user bases. While I never used Lightroom and used Aperture very infrequently from what I glean, Lightroom is/was indeed a superior product. Whutter ya gonna do? While iWork is somewhat inferior feature wise to M$FT's productivity suite, iWork stomps it in UI. And Office also has a decades long head start. Let's see what iWork looks like in 5-10 years. Except for Keynote, which makes Powerpoint look like it was made by a team of bickering, dim-witted clowns. 

     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mstone View Post

     

    I was referring specifically to the three apps mentioned by the OP. CAD, Illustrator, Photoshop, all of which I am a decades long expert in. My work is mostly technical and I use keyboard combinations every minute of the work day. Sure, some people think of digital art as exclusively drawing and painting with a Wacom, but even in that scenario you are much more efficient with the keyboard in conjunction with the stylus. I could give dozens of very specific examples, but if you use those apps on a daily basis as you say then you should already know what they are.


     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mstone View Post

     

    I'm not sure what "it" is, but I can tell you if you are referring to simply a stylus then I challenge you to do CAD, Illustrator, or Photoshop work with just one hand. That is the disadvantage of the iPad. You can have only one input at a time, save multi-touch.


     

    ... And force touch... and button/s on the stylus... I don't have "decades" of graphics experience, but I do have one (decade), and I'm pretty pumped about getting to ditch Adobe & Wacom... Eventually.

     

    It's great that you are so in love with the keyboard and all, but really, having to be tethered to a Mac by a keyboard (not to mention the tablet) is really annoying. Like I said, I'm glad you're so comfortable with it, and I'm sure it works great for you, but us "youngsters" are looking for, and will likely be getting, better solutions. 

  • Reply 63 of 95
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post



     

    Think about it! It could be tailored to the app and customizable by the user -- and would would support 2-handed operation that easily could exceed what you can now do with a kb.

    For anyone who has done graphic design for a living using CAD or Adobe Suite knows that ergonomics is key to avoiding repetitive task injury and neck/back stress. That is just one more reason the iPad is a fail for professional design such as technical illustration. With an iPad you are forced into one of three basic scenarios.

     

    1) You are holding the iPad

     

    2) You have the iPad on some kick stand like support

     

    3) It is lying flat on the table

     

    All three are an ergonomic nightmare for 8+ hours of continuous work. I work on a Mac Pro with a 30" monitor or on an iMac 5K. My desks have adjustable height keyboard support and I have a $1,000 professional workstation chair with a million different adjustments. The monitor is exactly 700 mm away from my eyes and I have custom eyeglasses that focus precisely at that distance. The lighting in my office is all 5000K and the computer is positioned so there are no reflections. I can comfortably work in these conditions for long periods of time. 

     

    People who are claiming that an iPad can replace a proper desktop for professional graphic design have clearly not fully evaluated all of the nuances of a design studio. An iPad would make a fabulous sketch pad, but replace my workstation, no way.

  • Reply 64 of 95
    cornchipcornchip Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post

     

    For anyone who has done graphic design for a living using CAD or Adobe Suite knows that ergonomics is key to avoiding repetitive task injury and neck/back stress. That is just one more reason the iPad is a fail for professional design such as technical illustration. With an iPad you are forced into one of three basic scenarios.

     

    1) You are holding the iPad

     

    2) You have the iPad on some kick stand like support

     

    3) It is lying flat on the table

     

    All three are an ergonomic nightmare for 8+ hours of continuous work. I work on a Mac Pro with a 30" monitor or on an iMac 5K. My desks have adjustable height keyboard support and I have a $1,000 professional workstation chair with a million different adjustments. The monitor is exactly 700 mm away from my eyes and I have custom eyeglasses that focus precisely at that distance. The lighting in my office is all 5000K and the computer is positioned so there are no reflections. I can comfortably work in these conditions for long periods of time. 

     

    People who are claiming that an iPad can replace a proper desktop for professional graphic design has clearly not fully evaluated all of the nuances of a design studio. An iPad would make a fabulous sketch pad, but replace my workstation, no way.


     

    What I read:

     

    Blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah b

     

    1) Won't work

     

    2) Won't work

     

    3) Won't work

     

    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahblahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

     

    blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah b

     

    Let's hang out some time...

     

    And maybe I missed something, but I didn't see anyone suggesting an iPad replace a workstation.

  • Reply 65 of 95
    thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    rp2011 wrote: »


    Let me tell you where I am coming from on this, I have a masters in technology in education. I teach both teachers and kids. Kindergarten kids come to class already versed in touch technology and intuitively touch any screen whether it's touch sensetive or not to make it work. Teachers on the other hand are hard to get up to speed.


    MStone's argument was baffling in that he stated lack of shortcuts were detrimental to the iPad pro and therefore not as good or whatever, not even having ever worked with said device, or taking in consideration a keyboard accessory. I haven't the the thing either for that matter. But I do know that putting a pen to a screen or paper and having direct input is far more intuitive than any other method. That's the key shortcut. Not to say there wont be any others. That's it.


    But I hope you do see how a device like this will make technology far more accessible to anyone manipulating art, design and drawings than any other method. That's a no brainier. No offense to old farts, but thinking otherwise IS myopic. 

     

    OK. I see more where you're coming from and actually we're more on the same page than you think.

    I wouldn't ever bore you with asking that you research some of my (or mstone's) many years worth of posts, but to summarize... we both have supported the iPad and it's capabilities from day one. Myself, I've pointed to my nephew as proof that "my/our" way is going to be obsolete before our careers ever get close to being over. FYI: the nephew started playing with the iPhone at 3, iPad at 4, and has his very own MBP at 7. He just skipped a grade and will be starting 3rd grade this year, and I will swear up and down til I'm blue in the face, that it's due to his mastering touch devices at a very early age and thus learning at turbo speed. In comparison to the old ways of sacrificing your childhood to learn from books... this was really just plain fun for him and all of us involved. Can't get any better than that.

    Note: on the horizon is the next input methods that look like they're gonna make pencil-to-paper i.e. Touch look antiquated fast, and that's the combination of speech and VR. Imagine creating buildings and spaces with no apparent weight of materials, but volume none the lesss; or a logo, layout or webpage by telling the computer to "make this, then that, smaller, center, background peachy orange..." and so on.

    Maybe it will be one of your students... or my nephew... that uses or builds the software to facilitate all of these advances. The one thing I must admit that every mentor and educator said to me in my youth that always ticked me off... but came to be very true... is that you will value the learning experience and wisdom you've gained only with age. And yhen one day you'll be talking from the Old Farts Club without realizing it...:smokey:
  • Reply 66 of 95
    robertcrobertc Posts: 118member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mstone View Post

     

    I was referring specifically to the three apps mentioned by the OP. CAD, Illustrator, Photoshop, all of which I am a decades long expert in. My work is mostly technical and I use keyboard combinations every minute of the work day. Sure, some people think of digital art as exclusively drawing and painting with a Wacom, but even in that scenario you are much more efficient with the keyboard in conjunction with the stylus. I could give dozens of very specific examples, but if you use those apps on a daily basis as you say then you should already know what they are.


    Thanks for sharing your perspective. I think VAIO was onto something.  2.5 lbs is a reasonable trade-off for a tablet with the power of a 15" MBP. I only bring this up because they're planning to launch it in the US. 

     

  • Reply 67 of 95
    rp2011rp2011 Posts: 159member
    What's the matter? You kids forget to take your Ritalin today or what? Calm the F*** down!

    The iPad Pro isn't even on the market and we nor YOU and the other stamping up and down juvenile Rebel Without A Cause knows what it can and cannot do or replace.

    Until that time, we in the Old Fart Club have work to do and ever tighter deadlines to meet. If you were working dare I say for either of us, we would surely respect and share your enthusiasm for everything shiny and new, because yeah, we've been in your shoes more than a few times.... but reality says we've got to get back to work!

    Until the cake is mixed and baked... YA CAN'T EAT IT... nor can you make money with it.

    So let's just wait and see how the iPad and the software apps develop, before tossing out what's currently working and jumping to conclusions of Nirvana.

    Oh and BTW: I've been ahead of every single tech curve for almost 40 years and have the battle scars to prove it. Think about only what I wrote above, and tell me why there's still people that can't be convinced that for a designer and especially a retoucher/compositor, that by consciously not learning to use a Wacom is their biggest road-block to efficient production and perfection.

    None of us have used it, those are the same reasons I said it was foolish for Mstone and yourself to say it wouldn't be as good or whatever.

    Shortcuts? Off the top of I head I see pen based shortcuts where you place whatever you want exactly where you want far easier. Hold a pen button and draw a square for example. The possibilities are expanded tenfold vs keyboard shortcuts. Developers limiits will be their imagination.

    Now take your Prilosec
  • Reply 68 of 95
    thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    Just to lighten it up a bit.... my previous post about unknowingly joining the Old Farts Club always reminds me of the song and lyrics to the Talking Heads, "Once In A Lifetime":

    ....
    And you may ask yourself
    How do I work this?
    And you may ask yourself
    Where is that large automobile?
    And you may tell yourself
    This is not my beautiful house
    And you may tell yourself
    This is not my beautiful wife

    Letting the days go by
    Let the water hold me down
    Letting the days go by
    Water flowing underground
    Into the blue again
    After the money's gone
    Once in a lifetime
    Water flowing underground

    Same as it ever was...
    Same as it ever was...
    Same as it ever was...
    Same as it ever was...
    Same as it ever was...
    Same as it ever was...
    Same as it ever was...
    Same as it ever was...
    ....

    Sigh...:rolleyes:
  • Reply 69 of 95

    Umm...I'll post it since no one else is...

     

    image

  • Reply 70 of 95
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rp2011 View Post



    Shortcuts? 

    Here is an example of a professional application keyboard. This is for FCP. Keyboard shortcuts blow hand selecting menus out of the water for efficiency and speed. Sure a stylus has a couple buttons, but key combinations is where things get really advanced.

     

  • Reply 71 of 95
    mstone wrote: »
     

    Think about it! It could be tailored to the app and customizable by the user -- and would would support 2-handed operation that easily could exceed what you can now do with a kb.
    For anyone who has done graphic design for a living using CAD or Adobe Suite knows that ergonomics is key to avoiding repetitive task injury and neck/back stress. That is just one more reason the iPad is a fail for professional design such as technical illustration. With an iPad you are forced into one of three basic scenarios.

    1) You are holding the iPad

    2) You have the iPad on some kick stand like support

    3) It is lying flat on the table

    All three are an ergonomic nightmare for 8+ hours of continuous work. I work on a Mac Pro with a 30" monitor or on an iMac 5K. My desks have adjustable height keyboard support and I have a $1,000 professional workstation chair with a million different adjustments. The monitor is exactly 700 mm away from my eyes and I have custom eyeglasses that focus precisely at that distance. The lighting in my office is all 5000K and the computer is positioned so there are no reflections. I can comfortably work in these conditions for long periods of time. 

    People who are claiming that an iPad can replace a proper desktop for professional graphic design have clearly not fully evaluated all of the nuances of a design studio. An iPad would make a fabulous sketch pad, but replace my workstation, no way.

    I don't think I, or anyone here, suggested an iPad can replace a desktop for all uses. I too, have a loaded iMac 5K with an external 27" monitor -- and use it for most of my heavy lifting.

    However, there are times when I want to do things when away from my desktop (in bed, outside, on a trip, at a soccer game, in front of the TV, etc.). The current iPad fills this need quite nicely. An iPad Pro with likely enhancements (popup tool tray) would be even better.

    Also, I suggest there a class of jobs * that do not require the heavy lifting that you, I and many here require,


    * Anyone who carries a clipboard is a candidate -- estimators, job foremen, repairmen, investigators, etc.



    BTW, I completed my 2nd eye surgery on August 10 -- cataract removal from both eyes. Before and during the 2-month period, I found it much easier to use the iPad than the much larger iMac 5K 27" display
  • Reply 72 of 95
    thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    rp2011 wrote: »
    None of us have used it, those are the same reasons I said it was foolish for Mstone and yourself to say it wouldn't be as good or whatever.

    Shortcuts? Off the top of I head I see pen based shortcuts place whatever you want exactly where you want far easier. Hold the pen button and draw a square gorgeous example. The possibilities are expanded tenfold vs keyboard shortcuts. Developers limiits will be their imagination.

    Now take your Prilosec

    So now you're assuming there's buttons on that rumored pen of yours?

    And please: a square? Or a circle? You're really making that iPad work for it's money aren't you? /s
  • Reply 73 of 95
    rp2011rp2011 Posts: 159member
    So now you're assuming there's buttons on that rumored pen of yours?

    And please: a square? Or a circle? You're really making that iPad work for it's money aren't you? /s

    Making an example the elderly can understand. You assume it doesn't have a button old man? I'm assuming the obvious, you asume it will have a carburetor I suppose.
  • Reply 74 of 95
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post





    I don't think I, or anyone here, suggested an iPad can replace a desktop for all uses. 

    It was never about ALL uses. The original commenter specifically stated CAD, Illustrator and Photoshop no longer would need a keyboard, which I disagreed with based on my extensive experience in those particular applications in a professional environment.

  • Reply 75 of 95
    thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    Yeah ... But, I bet that I'm older and fartier than either you or [@]mstone[/@]

    Yeah yeah... can't you see I'm doing my best impression of the Senior Guard? I'm even starting to post lyrics to obscure old "tunes" to punctuate my validity and belonging :D

    Now about that "fartier side of life", I seem to have that part of becoming geriatric all figu..... Oops....! Spoken too soon as is common these days. We'll just let the kids get back to harmless "thought rasberries" :smokey:
  • Reply 76 of 95
    rp2011 wrote: »
    Try telling people over 50 that a smartphone is easier and better than a flip-phone. They become myopic.

    Um, watch it, son. As someone born only in 2011, you may have just dissed a very high proportion of AI members..... :no:
  • Reply 77 of 95
    thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    rp2011 wrote: »
    Making an example the elderly can understand. You assume it doesn't have a button old man? I'm assuming the obvious, you asume it will have a carburetor I suppose.

    Ah! Another one of those common age-old sayings that takes on ever more embarrassing truth in its intent:

    Assume means making an ass out of you and me.

    You wouldn't happen to be an analyst, would you? Why am I guessing at this point that if the iPad Pro and it's pen doesn't live up to your expectations that you're going to be the first to go on an Apple Bitch Fest? Thus wasting your limited brain power on what it's not and can't do, rather than figuring out what it does differently and better. How very "old" is that?
  • Reply 78 of 95
    sam graves wrote: »
    Umm...I'll post it since no one else is...

    <iframe width="640" height="385" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/4YY3MSaUqMg?start=4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

    An utterly irrelevant post.
  • Reply 79 of 95



    Who's trolling?  Do you know anything about the iPad, its true channel sales and what the enterprise customers say?  I doubt it.  Instead of being childish how about you sit back and realize that the iPad has shortcomings at the field level when outside the office and controlled environment.   

  • Reply 80 of 95
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,446member

    Quote:


    Originally Posted by Misa View Post





    The last model of Surface Pro with a Wacom Digitizer was the SP2. The SP3 doesn't have it, and it was the sole selling point of the SP2 over the iPad. The SP3 switched to a cheaper, highly inaccurate n-Trig digitizer that is based on the touch display properties. People who need a "real stylus" eg artists were forced to go back to Wacom and get the Wacom Companion 2 for three times the price if they wanted an accurate digitizer in a tabletpc format. Like I can't express this enough... the only thing that the SP2 had over all other TabletPC's at the time it was released was that really accurate wacom digitizer. When they threw it away, the SP3 didn't end up on any artists recommendation lists. You were better off not wasting your money on the nTrig stuff. Either you bought the WC2 or you didn't buy anything and kept other "joke" implementations of a stylus for the iPad if you already had an iPad.



    Like I love Apple and all, but if they release a half-baked battery-operated stylus for the iPad, it's as good as no stylus at all.



    As a side-point, people who don't want to pay for Wacom's overpriced stuff have been buying Yiynova "cintiq alternatives" that use UC-Logic's technology. Apparently these are "good enough" to be comparable to Wacom's digitizer, but still use bulky battery-operated pens.



    Your link is from a year ago, and looks like many of the accuracy problems with the n-Trig in the SP3 are solved.  Here is one example of an artist who had problems with his SP3, and explains how it got better. 

     

    http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/11/01/surface-3-update

     

    I'm not an artist, so I can't test it by my self.

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