Of course there will be great games, but they will as good to make gamers move from their mobile devices and consoles? Will casual gamers play in front of a TV or their interest will decline as happened with the Wii, which main target was casual gamers?
Casual gamers is probably the wrong term. There are plenty of people who spend countless hours playing games that are not graphics intensive 3D games. I'm not sure you'd call them casual gamers even though they are playing games you would consider casual gamer games.
The problem the Wii U has is someone who truly there aren't that many games. Apple TV will have more games by christmas than any console has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmcd
I somehow don't expect this to be a large population. Real board games are far better for a family than sitting around a TV. Do people still even sit around the TV except perhaps for sports, elections, etc ...?
it depends on the game. Some games are much better to play digitally because the board game has so many pieces to keep track of and you have to remember to score every turn. My family has been playing Ticket to Ride lately. We like the board game because we can sit together to play, but like playing on the computer/iPad because the computer does all of the work and lets you just play. A game like that on the Apple TV would be the best of both. We would sit together playing, have a large screen to play on, and the computer would do all of the work of scoring each turn. As it is, some of us play on an iPad, others play on a computer because they need a bigger screen, so it's hard to sit and play together, and there is no large shared screen.
Many games aren't even possible without some sort of computer device, be it a phone, tablet, console, etc because there is no board game equivalent.
And yes, families do play video games together. That's why games like Mario Kart are so successful. Mario Kart isn't nearly as much fun if you aren't playing it with other people.
if people don't sit around the tv to play more games, it's a failure on the part of the games or gaming system. Well designed games will bring people together to play them.
1. You are jumping to conclusions to assume HomeKit won't be built into the ATV. We will find out one way or the other tomorrow.
3. People who have used systems that do this care, like the existing ATV.
4. This is relative. There are a ton of games on consoles that don't require the extra GPU power that the consoles have. The quality of these will be identical either place. People also prefer different kinds of games. Some of these are way underrepresented on consoles.
Also, Apple TV without an app store has outsold each of the current generation consoles.
1. You are jumping to conclusions to assume HomeKit won't be built into the ATV. We will find out one way or the other tomorrow.
3. People who have used systems that do this care, like the existing ATV.
4. This is relative. There are a ton of games on consoles that don't require the extra GPU power that the consoles have. The quality of these will be identical either place. People also prefer different kinds of games. Some of these are way underrepresented on consoles.
1. Even if it is introduced how many lights and A/Cs will it be able to control tomorrow?
Casual gamers is probably the wrong term. There are plenty of people who spend countless hours playing games that are not graphics intensive 3D games. I'm not sure you'd call them casual gamers even though they are playing games you would consider casual gamer games.
The problem the Wii U has is someone who truly there aren't that many games. Apple TV will have more games by christmas than any console has.
My definition of casual gamers is people who plays sporadically, and is not based if the game is graphic intensive or not. And from what I have seen, most of them play in mobile devices.
Interesting how you mention how good the ATV will be, based on quantity of games while ignoring Wii U library of excellent games.
I love my Apple TV but i don't see sales that high unless they get Netflix improved for a global audience, Hulu the same, some kind of cable sign in that's way cheaper than just getting cable and add some serious game fire power. Like Disney Infinity full version, Lego Dimensions, classic Nintendo titles etc. Otherwise gamers will keep buying their Xbox etc
1. You gotta be a real idiot if you don't think the new AppleTV won't play a huge role in HomeKit. This is about the future.
2. AppleTV package will be far superior to Playstation Vue. And yes that is a big deal for millions to have the best TV package with the best UI.
3. Many people care. The amount of iOS devices far out number Xbox/PS. Being able to play games at home and then continue mobile is a huge deal.
4. LOL. Give me a break. Apple has the best Apps in the universe. You don't think that will carry over to the AppleTV? How much money have non-Game publisher made on Xbox/PS apps? Peanuts compared to what iOS devs make. The AppleTV will have way better non-game Apps than the Xbox/PS.
Bottom line is the AppleTV will just do a ton of things better than Xbox/PS. Gaming is just one of its many features. While the Xbox/PS only does gaming well. Its just like iOS vs gameboy. Sure the gameboy can do great games. But its a one trick pony. Same with Xbox/PS. One trick pony's. While the AppleTV can do home automation, home security and monitoring, TV service, device synching, and a ton of non-game Apps like Karaoke, schedule calander, virutal jukebox, virutal DJ, personal assistant, weather and traffic updates, order food, ect. The possibilites are endless because iOS has tens of thousands of elite developers. Something Xbox/PS does not have.
In additional the AppleTv will be much cheaper than the Xbox/PS. Bottom line is the AppleTV will be the center of home entertainment.
You're quite handy with that shovel, I'll give you that.
I'm not sure I'm following you. My post was related on how Apple have abandoned the console gaming, and gave the Pippin case.
So today, Apple is presenting an upgraded AppleTV that will be able to play games, not quite console quality, and certainly not to gamer standards, but likely the sweet spot of the market. Likely Apple examined the console market and determined that they wouldn't enter that with a console, so yes, Apple continues to abandon the console market!
Instead Apple is going after the broad casual gamer market with a mobile processor and a general purpose multimedia hub, at a price point that will likely shift a lot of product, and coincidentally, has a long list of gaming titles available to play on day one. The wonderful thing for Apple is that they will be making money on these devices, and generating revenue through their store, and there will be many new opportunities for developers with this release.
But here's the rub.
I'll bet that a lot of parents tire of paying exorbitant prices for console game titles, and it may be that they will shift their purchases to a "good enough" device such as the AppleTV or even some Android device to take advantage of the titles that they likely have already purchased for their child's mobile device.
This is how mobile is killing the portable consoles, and it will be how the AppleTV will undermine the console market. It will create a new market where parents may never even purchase a console at all for their children, and with the rapid upgrades that mobile processors are seeing, it is likely that the AppleTV will be evolving faster than consoles can, and more profitably.
I'm not suggesting that AppleTV will kill the console market, but you would be delusional if you think it won't impact consoles.
I love my Apple TV but i don't see sales that high unless they get Netflix improved for a global audience, Hulu the same, some kind of cable sign in that's way cheaper than just getting cable and add some serious game fire power. Like Disney Infinity full version, Lego Dimensions, classic Nintendo titles etc. Otherwise gamers will keep buying their Xbox etc
So explain why iOS dominates Gameboy in portable gaming?
I see the same thing happening for console gaming.
Gameboy is a one trick pony - only plays games.
Xbox/PS is the same - only plays games. It does other things but not well.
The AppleTV will play games and do many other thing well. Casual gamers will just rather own one box and it will be the AppleTV. Who wants to mess with two or three devices connected to your TV? With AppleTV its just one wire device to do EVERYTHING. Movies, TV, gaming, home security, home automation, personal assistant, ect.
The games that make the most revenue on iOS are almost exactly the same games that make the most revenue on Android.
Android may surpass iOS in app-store revenue soon, and already has if you count China. China is also huge in the PC gaming market.
So both iOS and Android have had an even hand at dominating Nintendo's handheld gaming machines that don't do much else other than play games when compared to a smartphone. Nintendo still sells a few million handheld gaming systems, it's what has made them the most money lately.
Also what you describe the Apple TV doing sounds a lot like what Xiaomi is already doing with their line of home products. So it may not be too far fetched. But I doubt the Apple TV will the all-in-one device that you are thinking of. Not this year anyway.
I'll bet that a lot of parents tire of paying exorbitant prices for console game titles, and it may be that they will shift their purchases to a "good enough" device such as the AppleTV or even some Android device to take advantage of the titles that they likely have already purchased for their child's mobile device.
This is how mobile is killing the portable consoles, and it will be how the AppleTV will undermine the console market. It will create a new market where parents may never even purchase a console at all for their children, and with the rapid upgrades that mobile processors are seeing, it is likely that the AppleTV will be evolving faster than consoles can, and more profitably.
I'm not suggesting that AppleTV will kill the console market, but you would be delusional if you think it won't impact consoles.
Exactly.
The era of the $50-$60 game is coming to a close. It was ridiculous to start with. When I was a teenager I would buy $50 games in the 90's. In today's money that is $80. Flatout crazy.
The AppleTV will allow normal people to buy high quality games for $5-$10.
Only the hardcore gamers will continue to buy $50. In the past normal people had no choice but to buy $50 games because there were no viable alternatives.
Personally I know about a dozen or so people who bought Xbox/PS because they were normal people who wanted to play some games or their kids wanted to play some games. But they were no where near to hardcore gamers. But there was no other alternative. It was either Xbox/PS/Wii or nothing. Most are not happy with paying $50 for a game but they have no choice. With the choice of the AppleTV I'm pretty sure most of my friends/family will buy an AppleTV instead of a hardcore console.
I'm one of those people. I was a hardcore gamer in the 90's. But now I just don't have the time nor the desire to pay $400 for a system and $50 for a game. I just want to occasionally play some high quality and fun games. They don't need cutting edge graphics or have 2 hour CGI cut scenes. These are games. Their main goal is to be FUN. IMO, games have become to bloated recently. Too much money poured into producing awesome graphics and sound. But lacking in FUN. Games are too complicated. Give me games that are fun and have new fun concepts. I don't need $100 million theatrical cut scenes.
That's all a ruse. Those $5-$10 games will have tons of IAPs and will ultimately cost much more than $60.
Also what you describe the Apple TV doing sounds a lot like what Xiaomi is already doing with their line of home products. So it may not be too far fetched. But I doubt the Apple TV will the all-in-one device that you are thinking of. Not this year anyway.
I agree. It will be a slow build up to becoming the end all be all entertainment box.
But its happening. And no one is in better position to do it than Apple.
By 2017 I could see the AppleTV being the prized all in one box.
Want to watch a movie? AppleTV.
Listen to music? AppleTV
Watch an NFL game? AppleTV
Set your home security alarm?
Set your alarm to wake you up?
Auto set you lights?
Show you the weather and news in the morning?
Play games?
Wow. The possibilities are endless.
Pretty much all of those things can be done on a phone right now.
Imagine simply docking the phone in a cradle connected to the TV and that is your Apple TV.
That's all a ruse. Those $5-$10 games will have tons of IAPs and will ultimately cost much more than $60.
Says who?
How much do iOS games cost to produce? I would guess 1/10th or less of what a console game costs. There is no reason why they can't sell a full featured game for $5-$10.
Look at Infinti Blade 3. A very good game at less than $10. There is no ads and no need to buy IAP's. I finished the entire game without IAP.
What you are talking about are games that are 'FREE' on iOS. Those are money traps.
The smart publishers will figure out that selling full featured games for $5-$10 that don't require IAP's will be a gold mine. Those who make crap games will give them away for free in hopes to sell ads or make gameplay impossible or frustrating without buying IAP's.
Games with IAP's are the top grossing games across iOS and Android.
I hope you are right that smart publishers will move away from that model. It's obnoxious.
Pretty much all of those things can be done on a phone right now.
Imagine simply docking the phone in a cradle connected to the TV and that is your Apple TV.
Who wants to mess with leaving your phone in a dock? No one.
I frequently use my phone while I watch TV. So that makes ZERO sense.
And to make your 'plan' truly work your phone would need to be in the dock 24-7-365. How would it do HomeKit functions without your phone? How would it monitor your home when you are not home? How would it play games while you are talking on the phone?
Sorry. It needs to be a stand alone device that is on 24-7-365
That's a fair point.
Maybe in the future they will figure out how to do it wirelessly without the lag.
That's all a ruse. Those $5-$10 games will have tons of IAPs and will ultimately cost much more than $60.
Says who?
How much do iOS games cost to produce? I would guess 1/10th or less of what a console game costs. There is no reason why they can't sell a full featured game for $5-$10.
Look at Infinti Blade 3. A very good game at less than $10. There is no ads and no need to buy IAP's. I finished the entire game without IAP.
What you are talking about are games that are 'FREE' on iOS. Those are money traps.
The smart publishers will figure out that selling full featured games for $5-$10 that don't require IAP's will be a gold mine. Those who make crap games will give them away for free in hopes to sell ads or make gameplay impossible or frustrating without buying IAP's.
Do you really think people are going to want to play Temple Run, or Angry Birds on a big screen TV. The cost of making games suitable to play on TV are going to be much more than a mobile game. Those devs are going to want to make that money back, and that's not going to be at $5-$10 a pop with Apple taking 30% especially with all the competition that exists.
Do you really think people are going to want to play Temple Run, or Angry Birds on a big screen TV. The cost of making games suitable to play on TV are going to be much more than a mobile game. Those devs are going to want to make that money back, and that's not going to be at $5-$10 a pop with Apple taking 30% especially with all the competition that exists.
It will be less than console games, or game cartridges, and that's all it needs to do to displace some console purchases.
1. You gotta be a real idiot if you don't think the new AppleTV won't play a huge role in HomeKit. This is about the future.
2. AppleTV package will be far superior to Playstation Vue. And yes that is a big deal for millions to have the best TV package with the best UI.
3. Many people care. The amount of iOS devices far out number Xbox/PS. Being able to play games at home and then continue mobile is a huge deal.
4. LOL. Give me a break. Apple has the best Apps in the universe. You don't think that will carry over to the AppleTV? How much money have non-Game publisher made on Xbox/PS apps? Peanuts compared to what iOS devs make. The AppleTV will have way better non-game Apps than the Xbox/PS.
Bottom line is the AppleTV will just do a ton of things better than Xbox/PS. Gaming is just one of its many features. While the Xbox/PS only does gaming well. Its just like iOS vs gameboy. Sure the gameboy can do great games. But its a one trick pony. Same with Xbox/PS. One trick pony's. While the AppleTV can do home automation, home security and monitoring, TV service, device synching, and a ton of non-game Apps like Karaoke, schedule calander, virutal jukebox, virutal DJ, personal assistant, weather and traffic updates, order food, ect. The possibilites are endless because iOS has tens of thousands of elite developers. Something Xbox/PS does not have.
In additional the AppleTv will be much cheaper than the Xbox/PS. Bottom line is the AppleTV will be the center of home entertainment.
Hardcore gaming has a captive audience and well established market. Home automation via the TV does not. Virtual DJ does not. All of the other blue sky ideas you're spitballing do not. How many people do you really think are going to care about synchronisation capabilities in a set top box, or calendar scheduling?
I don't think this general purpose computing via the TV has the assured success that you seem to think it does. It's all going to be about the TV and movie content and how Apple can present that. Unexpected innovations aside, nothing else matters much.
Do you really think people are going to want to play Temple Run, or Angry Birds on a big screen TV. The cost of making games suitable to play on TV are going to be much more than a mobile game. Those devs are going to want to make that money back, and that's not going to be at $5-$10 a pop with Apple taking 30% especially with all the competition that exists.
It will be less than console games, or game cartridges, and that's all it needs to do to displace some console purchases.
It'll be less than the top notch titles, but will be closer to the average console game.
The winner is clear, Nintendo is building games for iOS. I really wouldn't be shocked if they were on the stage tomorrow.
I don't expect Nintendo ever to be on stage with Apple truthfully even though I prefer them to.
Nintendo is doing just fine as a console maker. Their iOS games does not compete directly with the 3DS game library.
What I expect is more indie based or iOS based game devs to show up with their games. Nothing that would rock the industry since most gamers have adjusted to playing casual games on their iOS device and console games on their consoles.
Comments
Of course there will be great games, but they will as good to make gamers move from their mobile devices and consoles? Will casual gamers play in front of a TV or their interest will decline as happened with the Wii, which main target was casual gamers?
Casual gamers is probably the wrong term. There are plenty of people who spend countless hours playing games that are not graphics intensive 3D games. I'm not sure you'd call them casual gamers even though they are playing games you would consider casual gamer games.
The problem the Wii U has is someone who truly there aren't that many games. Apple TV will have more games by christmas than any console has.
I somehow don't expect this to be a large population. Real board games are far better for a family than sitting around a TV. Do people still even sit around the TV except perhaps for sports, elections, etc ...?
it depends on the game. Some games are much better to play digitally because the board game has so many pieces to keep track of and you have to remember to score every turn. My family has been playing Ticket to Ride lately. We like the board game because we can sit together to play, but like playing on the computer/iPad because the computer does all of the work and lets you just play. A game like that on the Apple TV would be the best of both. We would sit together playing, have a large screen to play on, and the computer would do all of the work of scoring each turn. As it is, some of us play on an iPad, others play on a computer because they need a bigger screen, so it's hard to sit and play together, and there is no large shared screen.
Many games aren't even possible without some sort of computer device, be it a phone, tablet, console, etc because there is no board game equivalent.
And yes, families do play video games together. That's why games like Mario Kart are so successful. Mario Kart isn't nearly as much fun if you aren't playing it with other people.
if people don't sit around the tv to play more games, it's a failure on the part of the games or gaming system. Well designed games will bring people together to play them.
1. Neither can the ATV as of now, and tomorrow.
2. Ever hear of Playstation Vue?
3. Who cares?
4. Quality beats quantity.
Anymore wrong answers?
1. You are jumping to conclusions to assume HomeKit won't be built into the ATV. We will find out one way or the other tomorrow.
3. People who have used systems that do this care, like the existing ATV.
4. This is relative. There are a ton of games on consoles that don't require the extra GPU power that the consoles have. The quality of these will be identical either place. People also prefer different kinds of games. Some of these are way underrepresented on consoles.
Also, Apple TV without an app store has outsold each of the current generation consoles.
1. Even if it is introduced how many lights and A/Cs will it be able to control tomorrow?
Casual gamers is probably the wrong term. There are plenty of people who spend countless hours playing games that are not graphics intensive 3D games. I'm not sure you'd call them casual gamers even though they are playing games you would consider casual gamer games.
The problem the Wii U has is someone who truly there aren't that many games. Apple TV will have more games by christmas than any console has.
My definition of casual gamers is people who plays sporadically, and is not based if the game is graphic intensive or not. And from what I have seen, most of them play in mobile devices.
Interesting how you mention how good the ATV will be, based on quantity of games while ignoring Wii U library of excellent games.
You're quite handy with that shovel, I'll give you that.
I'm not sure I'm following you. My post was related on how Apple have abandoned the console gaming, and gave the Pippin case.
So today, Apple is presenting an upgraded AppleTV that will be able to play games, not quite console quality, and certainly not to gamer standards, but likely the sweet spot of the market. Likely Apple examined the console market and determined that they wouldn't enter that with a console, so yes, Apple continues to abandon the console market!
Instead Apple is going after the broad casual gamer market with a mobile processor and a general purpose multimedia hub, at a price point that will likely shift a lot of product, and coincidentally, has a long list of gaming titles available to play on day one. The wonderful thing for Apple is that they will be making money on these devices, and generating revenue through their store, and there will be many new opportunities for developers with this release.
But here's the rub.
I'll bet that a lot of parents tire of paying exorbitant prices for console game titles, and it may be that they will shift their purchases to a "good enough" device such as the AppleTV or even some Android device to take advantage of the titles that they likely have already purchased for their child's mobile device.
This is how mobile is killing the portable consoles, and it will be how the AppleTV will undermine the console market. It will create a new market where parents may never even purchase a console at all for their children, and with the rapid upgrades that mobile processors are seeing, it is likely that the AppleTV will be evolving faster than consoles can, and more profitably.
I'm not suggesting that AppleTV will kill the console market, but you would be delusional if you think it won't impact consoles.
I love my Apple TV but i don't see sales that high unless they get Netflix improved for a global audience, Hulu the same, some kind of cable sign in that's way cheaper than just getting cable and add some serious game fire power. Like Disney Infinity full version, Lego Dimensions, classic Nintendo titles etc. Otherwise gamers will keep buying their Xbox etc
So explain why iOS dominates Gameboy in portable gaming?
I see the same thing happening for console gaming.
Gameboy is a one trick pony - only plays games.
Xbox/PS is the same - only plays games. It does other things but not well.
The AppleTV will play games and do many other thing well. Casual gamers will just rather own one box and it will be the AppleTV. Who wants to mess with two or three devices connected to your TV? With AppleTV its just one wire device to do EVERYTHING. Movies, TV, gaming, home security, home automation, personal assistant, ect.
The games that make the most revenue on iOS are almost exactly the same games that make the most revenue on Android.
Android may surpass iOS in app-store revenue soon, and already has if you count China. China is also huge in the PC gaming market.
So both iOS and Android have had an even hand at dominating Nintendo's handheld gaming machines that don't do much else other than play games when compared to a smartphone. Nintendo still sells a few million handheld gaming systems, it's what has made them the most money lately.
Also what you describe the Apple TV doing sounds a lot like what Xiaomi is already doing with their line of home products. So it may not be too far fetched. But I doubt the Apple TV will the all-in-one device that you are thinking of. Not this year anyway.
That's all a ruse. Those $5-$10 games will have tons of IAPs and will ultimately cost much more than $60.
Also what you describe the Apple TV doing sounds a lot like what Xiaomi is already doing with their line of home products. So it may not be too far fetched. But I doubt the Apple TV will the all-in-one device that you are thinking of. Not this year anyway.
I agree. It will be a slow build up to becoming the end all be all entertainment box.
But its happening. And no one is in better position to do it than Apple.
By 2017 I could see the AppleTV being the prized all in one box.
Want to watch a movie? AppleTV.
Listen to music? AppleTV
Watch an NFL game? AppleTV
Set your home security alarm?
Set your alarm to wake you up?
Auto set you lights?
Show you the weather and news in the morning?
Play games?
Wow. The possibilities are endless.
Pretty much all of those things can be done on a phone right now.
Imagine simply docking the phone in a cradle connected to the TV and that is your Apple TV.
That's all a ruse. Those $5-$10 games will have tons of IAPs and will ultimately cost much more than $60.
Says who?
How much do iOS games cost to produce? I would guess 1/10th or less of what a console game costs. There is no reason why they can't sell a full featured game for $5-$10.
Look at Infinti Blade 3. A very good game at less than $10. There is no ads and no need to buy IAP's. I finished the entire game without IAP.
What you are talking about are games that are 'FREE' on iOS. Those are money traps.
The smart publishers will figure out that selling full featured games for $5-$10 that don't require IAP's will be a gold mine. Those who make crap games will give them away for free in hopes to sell ads or make gameplay impossible or frustrating without buying IAP's.
Games with IAP's are the top grossing games across iOS and Android.
I hope you are right that smart publishers will move away from that model. It's obnoxious.
Pretty much all of those things can be done on a phone right now.
Imagine simply docking the phone in a cradle connected to the TV and that is your Apple TV.
Who wants to mess with leaving your phone in a dock? No one.
I frequently use my phone while I watch TV. So that makes ZERO sense.
And to make your 'plan' truly work your phone would need to be in the dock 24-7-365. How would it do HomeKit functions without your phone? How would it monitor your home when you are not home? How would it play games while you are talking on the phone?
Sorry. It needs to be a stand alone device that is on 24-7-365
That's a fair point.
Maybe in the future they will figure out how to do it wirelessly without the lag.
Games with IAP's are the top grossing games across iOS and Android.
I hope you are right that smart publishers will move away from that model. It's obnoxious.
But how many of those top grossing games require you to pay more than $10 in IAP to enjoy the game?
Most free games I get only require about $1-$5 to unlock most of the gameplay. So its sort of like a free trial, which is okay with me.
So then why not just sell the full featured game for $1-$10 like you said above?
I am not a fan of IAP's.
I would rather have a free demo version and if you like it you buy the full game.
Do you have any idea how much those games make on a daily basis to be top grossing. The IAPs are much more than $10 for them to hit that daily number.
Do you really think people are going to want to play Temple Run, or Angry Birds on a big screen TV. The cost of making games suitable to play on TV are going to be much more than a mobile game. Those devs are going to want to make that money back, and that's not going to be at $5-$10 a pop with Apple taking 30% especially with all the competition that exists.
Do you really think people are going to want to play Temple Run, or Angry Birds on a big screen TV. The cost of making games suitable to play on TV are going to be much more than a mobile game. Those devs are going to want to make that money back, and that's not going to be at $5-$10 a pop with Apple taking 30% especially with all the competition that exists.
It will be less than console games, or game cartridges, and that's all it needs to do to displace some console purchases.
I don't think this general purpose computing via the TV has the assured success that you seem to think it does. It's all going to be about the TV and movie content and how Apple can present that. Unexpected innovations aside, nothing else matters much.
It'll be less than the top notch titles, but will be closer to the average console game.
The winner is clear, Nintendo is building games for iOS. I really wouldn't be shocked if they were on the stage tomorrow.
I don't expect Nintendo ever to be on stage with Apple truthfully even though I prefer them to.
Nintendo is doing just fine as a console maker. Their iOS games does not compete directly with the 3DS game library.
What I expect is more indie based or iOS based game devs to show up with their games. Nothing that would rock the industry since most gamers have adjusted to playing casual games on their iOS device and console games on their consoles.
It'll be less than the top notch titles, but will be closer to the average console game.
That may be, but the issue is whether it is a purchase that might have otherwise gone to a console game, in which case, it is a loss for the consoles.