Hands on: iPad Pro with Apple Pencil

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  • Reply 221 of 247
    pmcdpmcd Posts: 396member
    The stylus that comes with the Surface 3 () is just terrible. It doesn't feel like a pen or pencil, the tip is removed from the inkspot and there is an annoying lag. It reminds me of the Wacom screens on Tablet PC's that I used for years. Better than nothing but not great. I really hope that the iPad Pro's pencil behaves just like a pencil and paper (within reason). If not then it will really disappointing.
  • Reply 222 of 247
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,238member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsenka View Post





    Although software is a very real problem on the iPad, that's the least of the issues. Devices like the Surface Pro and the Cintiq Companion bring the full professional desktop experience (hardware, applications and file structure) to the portable drawing device. THAT is what it's defenders are paying for, and the iPad Pro doesn't even come close to addressing the issue. It's still just an iPad that now can do a few more cool things it couldn't before.



    Without question a few more iterations are needed. The pencil is missing programmable side switches, and an eraser. It doesn't come in width and grip shape variants. The iPad itself doesn't have any hotkeys. iOS doesn't allow the install of full desktop apps. It doesn't give me access to the file structure to organize my files and folders for large professional projects. All of these things CAN be done in the future if Apple really wants to, they just aren't there right now.

    I guess that depends on what you mean by disruption. This is more of a "me too" product, that brings considerably less to the table than the products it's competing against. It's certainly poised with the potential to become disruptive, but this version is not quite there yet.



    Now, will they sell a lot of them? I bet they will. I'll be buying one for sure. Will professional artists suddenly abandon their professional tools in favour of it? No. Is it the product that Mac lovers who have reluctantly been using Windows based portable drawing tablets have been wishing for? Not even close. What they wanted was for the iPad Pro and the 12" Macbook to be the same device. That would have caused some serious immediate disruption.

    I doubt that the Cintiq Companion 2, at 3.75 pounds, has ever sold in great numbers, Wacom just doesn't show the revenues for that and frankly it is barely portable, and the Surface pro 3 is selling at basically a rate of 10% of iPads sales, maybe a million units a quarter, but not all of those are being used in graphics applications, and it still has to compete with laptops in the same niche. So an iPad Pro comes along, and will likely have an immediately larger market share than those two devices combined. Developers of graphics applications will create iPad Pro versions of their software, and even with the limitations of running  a mobile app, the mobility will be much superior to either the Cintiq or the Surface Pro. Mobility is the disruption, and it is likely to bolstered with pen capability on the next iPad Air.

     

    So the tradeoff is currently lack of software for the iPad Pro, lack of a variety of purpose built pens, and ultimately a limited experience compared to a desktop application. Yet you yourself would purchase an iPad Pro, so mobility must be an important factor for graphics artists, even with limitations, and even as a secondary device.

  • Reply 223 of 247
    tmay wrote: »
    I doubt that the Cintiq Companion 2, at 3.75 pounds, has ever sold in great numbers, Wacom just doesn't show the revenues for that and frankly it is barely portable, and the Surface pro 3 is selling at basically a rate of 10% of iPads sales, maybe a million units a quarter, but not all of those are being used in graphics applications, and it still has to compete with laptops in the same niche. So an iPad Pro comes along, and will likely have an immediately larger market share than those two devices combined. Developers of graphics applications will create iPad Pro versions of their software, and even with the limitations of running  a mobile app, the mobility will be much superior to either the Cintiq or the Surface Pro. Mobility is the disruption, and it is likely to bolstered with pen capability on the next iPad Air.

    Most people who have used them tout the Cintiq Companion's extra weight is one of it's advantages over other tablets. It's more solid, and stays put better. The price and the fact that it runs Windows is what really keeps the sales down.
    So the tradeoff is currently lack of software for the iPad Pro, lack of a variety of purpose built pens, and ultimately a limited experience compared to a desktop application. Yet you yourself would purchase an iPad Pro, so mobility must be an important factor for graphics artists, even with limitations, and even as a secondary device.

    It was time to replace my old iPad anyway, so there's no reason for me not to give this one a try. Like all Apple products, they will likely sell boatloads of them. No one is going to be using it as a replacement for the other solutions that are already out there though.

    This is why I say a few iterations down the road, we'll probably really see something. All of my complaints CAN be addressed if Apple wanted to.
  • Reply 224 of 247
    Quote:


     So the end of the pen is as precise as your finger? Seems to me they would be pretty much the same size.

     

    Then again, if you want real precision, wouldn't you prefer to use the pen tip and enable it with multitouch from the other hand?



     

    So I'm kinda new here...

     

    Okay, thoughts. I'm really, really disappointed that the Pencil only works with the iPad Pro. Like come on, not every artist has humongous hands and wants to lug expensive desk-sized devices around. Have some love for us starving students :(

     

    Currently I work with an iPad mini 2/Paper by 53/Procreate by SI setup - shameless plug here, Procreate is the most amazing digital art app ever - and I'd like to point out that quite a few of the Apple Pencil's features are...nothing new to me. I use a stylus, coincidentally also named Pencil (by 53), which looks clunky and thick but is actually very precise - it's just shaped like a carpenter's pencil. And personally I think Pencil (by 53) is even more amazing than (Apple) Pencil for the sheer fact that FiftyThree managed to work in Surface Pressure, drawing at a tilt, palm rejection and so on with no hardware support from Apple whatsoever. I'm actually a little outraged really, and also very sad because FiftyThree's a small startup and they might fold under the weight of the (Apple) Pencil :(

     

    Oh wait I'm rambling. Actually I made an account to reply because Pencil (by 53) has an eraser tip in addition to its other features, and with Paper and Procreate it's nothing short of amazing. Yes, you do simply flip the Pencil around to erase stuff. And no, the eraser tip isn't any less precise than the drawing tip - in fact, in some ways it's a bit more precise especially when it comes to straight lines (since the eraser tip sensor is a rectangle). Both are way, way more precise than my finger (and as earlier stated, I have very small hands). And beyond the drawing/eraser tips, Pencil (by 53) also accepts finger input while it's in use, in a real artist way - finger input works as a blending tool. You can't imagine how I felt the first time I was using a charcoal brush and I could smudge it and smear it like I was drawing on actual canvas :D

     

    Also I'm a little freaked out by the people talking favourably about the (Apple) Pencil's twelve-hour battery life. What planet are y'all on? My one-year-old Pencil (by 53) lasts for one and a half months with moderate usage (like three or four hours of use every day). And charges in an hour and a half.

     

    I know I probably sound salty as **** right now and yes, yes I am. Apple is aware of FiftyThree's existence - IIRC the startup actually won a Design award or other - so if they're going to market a similar product at least make it available to the same range as FiftyThree's Pencil. Or put in the eraser tip. Or better yet just buy the startup or something and get their engineers to work on Pencil so no-one has to lose their job and we can get an Apple Pencil that does everything Pencil by 53 does and looks sleeker too (and lasts more than a fucking day like WTF). Or if nothing else just give me a Pencil for my iPad mini oh my God why am I going to pre-order an iPad Pro why why why are you making me spend all the money I don't have on a device I can't even hold

  • Reply 225 of 247

    Why isn't my post showing up?

  • Reply 226 of 247
    tmay wrote: »
    I doubt that the Cintiq Companion 2, at 3.75 pounds, has ever sold in great numbers, Wacom just doesn't show the revenues for that and frankly it is barely portable, and the Surface pro 3 is selling at basically a rate of 10% of iPads sales, maybe a million units a quarter, but not all of those are being used in graphics applications, and it still has to compete with laptops in the same niche. So an iPad Pro comes along, and will likely have an immediately larger market share than those two devices combined. Developers of graphics applications will create iPad Pro versions of their software, and even with the limitations of running  a mobile app, the mobility will be much superior to either the Cintiq or the Surface Pro. Mobility is the disruption, and it is likely to bolstered with pen capability on the next iPad Air.

    So the tradeoff is currently lack of software for the iPad Pro, lack of a variety of purpose built pens, and ultimately a limited experience compared to a desktop application. Yet you yourself would purchase an iPad Pro, so mobility must be an important factor for graphics artists, even with limitations, and even as a secondary device.

    I would say that "currently" we're lacking the iPad Pro, since no one has one yet.

    The rest of "currently" is probably being worked on diligently as we write these infinite-8, chicken-n-egg comments.
  • Reply 227 of 247
    museola wrote: »
    So I'm kinda new here...

    Okay, thoughts. I'm really, really disappointed that the Pencil only works with the iPad Pro. Like come on, not every artist has humongous hands and wants to lug expensive desk-sized devices around. Have some love for us starving students :(

    Currently I work with an iPad mini 2/Paper by 53/Procreate by SI setup - shameless plug here, Procreate is the most amazing digital art app ever - and I'd like to point out that quite a few of the Apple Pencil's features are...nothing new to me. I use a stylus, coincidentally also named Pencil (by 53), which looks clunky and thick but is actually very precise - it's just shaped like a carpenter's pencil. And personally I think Pencil (by 53) is even more amazing than (Apple) Pencil for the sheer fact that FiftyThree managed to work in Surface Pressure, drawing at a tilt, palm rejection and so on with no hardware support from Apple whatsoever. I'm actually a little outraged really, and also very sad because FiftyThree's a small startup and they might fold under the weight of the (Apple) Pencil :(

    Oh wait I'm rambling. Actually I made an account to reply because Pencil (by 53) has an eraser tip in addition to its other features, and with Paper and Procreate it's nothing short of amazing. Yes, you do simply flip the Pencil around to erase stuff. And no, the eraser tip isn't any less precise than the drawing tip - in fact, in some ways it's a bit more precise especially when it comes to straight lines (since the eraser tip sensor is a rectangle). Both are way, way more precise than my finger (and as earlier stated, I have very small hands). And beyond the drawing/eraser tips, Pencil (by 53) also accepts finger input while it's in use, in a real artist way - finger input works as a blending tool. You can't imagine how I felt the first time I was using a charcoal brush and I could smudge it and smear it like I was drawing on actual canvas :D

    Also I'm a little freaked out by the people talking favourably about the (Apple) Pencil's twelve-hour battery life. What planet are y'all on? My one-year-old Pencil (by 53) lasts for one and a half months with moderate usage (like three or four hours of use every day). And charges in an hour and a half.

    I know I probably sound salty as **** right now and yes, yes I am. Apple is aware of FiftyThree's existence - IIRC the startup actually won a Design award or other - so if they're going to market a similar product at least make it available to the same range as FiftyThree's Pencil. Or put in the eraser tip. Or better yet just buy the startup or something and get their engineers to work on Pencil so no-one has to lose their job and we can get an Apple Pencil that does everything Pencil by 53 does and looks sleeker too (and lasts more than a fucking day like WTF). Or if nothing else just give me a Pencil for my iPad mini oh my God why am I going to pre-order an iPad Pro why why why are you making me spend all the money I don't have on a device I can't even hold

    Obviously you didn't understand that the pressure/tilt sensitivity is NOT only in the Pencil, but in the screen of the iPad Pro in the form of sensors. It would be plain silly to update all of the iPad Air II's with a new screen IMHO.

    I'm sure Apple took this circuitous rout because Wacom owns a lot of patents pertaining to battery/cordless pen-tech... and/or because they like creating their own solutions to problems which they themselves can patent (which the Pencil has quite a few already).
  • Reply 228 of 247
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,238member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post





    I would say that "currently" we're lacking the iPad Pro, since no one has one yet.



    The rest of "currently" is probably being worked on diligently as we write these infinite-8, chicken-n-egg comments.

    Point taken and I agree.

  • Reply 229 of 247
    polymnia wrote: »
    Wacom is right to be worried. Though, I still hold out hope that Apple may open up the pen to 3rd party manufacturers. Since it appears they have developed a lot of their own tech to make the apple pencil work, that may be a remote possibility.

    The beauty of Wacom is the nearly infinite configuration of hardware and software their system provides.

    This configuration is what allows all of us to erase JUST the way we desire. It might seem silly to people who don't use pens regularly, but it is important to those of us who do.

    It's incredible that Wacom never bothered to develop a pen with as much functionality as the Apple Pencil. It looks like it has "best of all worlds" capabilities.
  • Reply 230 of 247
    museola wrote: »
    So I'm kinda new here...

    Okay, thoughts. I'm really, really disappointed that the Pencil only works with the iPad Pro. Like come on, not every artist has humongous hands and wants to lug expensive desk-sized devices around. Have some love for us starving students :(

    Currently I work with an iPad mini 2/Paper by 53/Procreate by SI setup - shameless plug here, Procreate is the most amazing digital art app ever - and I'd like to point out that quite a few of the Apple Pencil's features are...nothing new to me. I use a stylus, coincidentally also named Pencil (by 53), which looks clunky and thick but is actually very precise - it's just shaped like a carpenter's pencil. And personally I think Pencil (by 53) is even more amazing than (Apple) Pencil for the sheer fact that FiftyThree managed to work in Surface Pressure, drawing at a tilt, palm rejection and so on with no hardware support from Apple whatsoever. I'm actually a little outraged really, and also very sad because FiftyThree's a small startup and they might fold under the weight of the (Apple) Pencil :(

    Oh wait I'm rambling. Actually I made an account to reply because Pencil (by 53) has an eraser tip in addition to its other features, and with Paper and Procreate it's nothing short of amazing. Yes, you do simply flip the Pencil around to erase stuff. And no, the eraser tip isn't any less precise than the drawing tip - in fact, in some ways it's a bit more precise especially when it comes to straight lines (since the eraser tip sensor is a rectangle). Both are way, way more precise than my finger (and as earlier stated, I have very small hands). And beyond the drawing/eraser tips, Pencil (by 53) also accepts finger input while it's in use, in a real artist way - finger input works as a blending tool. You can't imagine how I felt the first time I was using a charcoal brush and I could smudge it and smear it like I was drawing on actual canvas :D

    Also I'm a little freaked out by the people talking favourably about the (Apple) Pencil's twelve-hour battery life. What planet are y'all on? My one-year-old Pencil (by 53) lasts for one and a half months with moderate usage (like three or four hours of use every day). And charges in an hour and a half.

    I know I probably sound salty as **** right now and yes, yes I am. Apple is aware of FiftyThree's existence - IIRC the startup actually won a Design award or other - so if they're going to market a similar product at least make it available to the same range as FiftyThree's Pencil. Or put in the eraser tip. Or better yet just buy the startup or something and get their engineers to work on Pencil so no-one has to lose their job and we can get an Apple Pencil that does everything Pencil by 53 does and looks sleeker too (and lasts more than a fucking day like WTF). Or if nothing else just give me a Pencil for my iPad mini oh my God why am I going to pre-order an iPad Pro why why why are you making me spend all the money I don't have on a device I can't even hold

    I hate to quote such a long post, but I'm on a phone here and editing is not easy...

    The 53 pencil operates differently from the Apple Pencil in significant ways, mostly thanks to Apple's improved display in the iPad Pro. The Apple Pencil cannot be used on lesser devices, so 53 has plenty of room to maneuver for now.
  • Reply 231 of 247
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post





    Obviously you didn't understand that the pressure/tilt sensitivity is NOT only in the Pencil, but in the screen of the iPad Pro in the form of sensors. It would be plain silly to update all of the iPad Air II's with a new screen IMHO.



    I'm sure Apple took this circuitous rout because Wacom owns a lot of patents pertaining to battery/cordless pen-tech... and/or because they like creating their own solutions to problems which they themselves can patent (which the Pencil has quite a few already).

     

    Uh, it's something I "obviously" understand, given that in my post I mentioned Pencil (by 53)'s managing to make it work without hardware support from Apple. In addition, like my post shows at least one tiny company has been able to incorporate (software) Surface Pressure and Tilt as well as (hardware) battery, Bluetooth and tip tech into their product without Wacom coming down on them like a ton of rocks, which is why in my post I said:

     

    "Apple is aware of FiftyThree's existence - IIRC the startup actually won a Design award or other (insertion here: FiftyThree's Pencil is actually sold in Apple stores now) - so if they're going to market a similar product at least make it available to the same range as FiftyThree's Pencil. Or put in the eraser tip. Or better yet just buy the startup or something and get their engineers to work on Pencil so no-one has to lose their job and we can get an Apple Pencil that does everything Pencil by 53 does and looks sleeker too (and lasts more than a fucking day like WTF). Or if nothing else just give me a Pencil for my iPad mini oh my God why am I going to pre-order an iPad Pro why why why are you making me spend all the money I don't have on a device I can't even hold"

     

    Because I'm actually really concerned for FiftyThree's future right now. And as a startup they're not even averse to working with Apple. Maybe it's just me but it seems pretty intuitive that when you have a much smaller firm with a similar product that's proven to be successful and they already have a relationship with you, you take advantage of that relationship when you do decide to come out with your own product. If nothing else, I'd want to know what the hell FiftyThree is doing with their battery tech that their stylus lasts for weeks and even months on a single charge. Or the eraser tip tech, which is actually very pleasant to work with and is clearly implemented differently from whatever Wacom uses. If they have patents, buy them. Keep their engineers around, there are like fifteen of them max. How hard is that?

     

    Oh I see I didn't make myself totally clear. I didn't mean that I wanted a Pencil that worked with my current iPad Mini. I'm saying not every artist wants to work on a 12.9-inch monster, or can currently afford to get a 12.9-inch device that they can't use for anything other than art. I'm probably going to end up buying the iPad Pro anyhow, but I'm also going to have to round up a few extra hundred bucks to get the iPad Mini 4 because I honestly cannot handle a device as large as the Pro for extended periods (and my Mini gets very heavy daily usage). The iPad Pro doesn't fit into my existing gadget ecosystem for anything except art, and I know for some here it's a trivial thing but some of us don't have a lot of money to spend :(

     

    If an iPad mini or even an iPad Air existed that's otherwise the same but has the hardware to work with the Apple Pencil I'd gladly pay as much or even slightly more for it than for the iPad Pro. Beyond that - and this is why I keep bringing up FiftyThree - I'd gladly pay a premium for a Mini that didn't have the hardware but had software workarounds to use at least some of the features of the Apple Pencil. It's not something that's beyond Apple's engineers. It's not like the market doesn't exist, I'm hardly the first nor the last person to ask or wonder if the Pencil will work with anything other than the iPad Pro. If it's something they don't want to work on, then...I don't know, sell the SDK or something.

  • Reply 232 of 247
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post





    I hate to quote such a long post, but I'm on a phone here and editing is not easy...



    The 53 pencil operates differently from the Apple Pencil in significant ways, mostly thanks to Apple's improved display in the iPad Pro. The Apple Pencil cannot be used on lesser devices, so 53 has plenty of room to maneuver for now.

     

    Oh. Sorry :(

     

    And...yeah, that's kind of my point. For a while they were about the best a student/amateur pro could get if they wanted to work on an iPad, but now FiftyThree only holds part of the market because Apple hasn't expanded there yet. And you can bet that by this time next year's Air if not the Mini will be compatible with Apple Pencil. And they know it - FiftyThree cut their prices by ten dollars (which is about twenty percent) once the news of the Apple Pencil came out.

  • Reply 233 of 247
    It's incredible that Wacom never bothered to develop a pen with as much functionality as the Apple Pencil. It looks like it has "best of all worlds" capabilities.

    What did you see in the Pencil demo that isn't already being done by Wacom?
  • Reply 234 of 247
    bsenka wrote: »
    What did you see in the Pencil demo that isn't already being done by Wacom?

    I personally haven't seen anything but my knowledge of digitizers and styluses usage is only academic. I did, however, read one review that said Apple nails it where Wacom doesn't, and explains various ways, but she is an ex-Apple engineer (as I recall) so I'd wait for more reviews, more independent reviews (not that she couldn't have been completely objective in her assessment), and for comparisons of similar tasks to see how well Appled the HW and SW unification their first time out.
  • Reply 235 of 247
    solipsismy wrote: »
    I personally haven't seen anything but my knowledge of digitizers and styluses usage is only academic. I did, however, read one review that said Apple nails it where Wacom doesn't, and explains various ways, but she is an ex-Apple engineer (as I recall) so I'd wait for more reviews, more independent reviews (not that she couldn't have been completely objective in her assessment), and for comparisons of similar tasks to see how well Appled the HW and SW unification their first time out.

    Linda Dong? Yeah, she's taken a lot of flack for not disclosing that she was part of the team that built the Pencil, and grossly misrepesenting how Wacom styluses do and do not work. It was PR, nothing more. She even took some of the glaring negatives of the Pencil like the lack of side switches and tried to paint those as positives.

    Again, I've not seen a single feature or function listed or demoed for the Pencil that I have not already been using for years with Wacom products. If anything Wacom still has many features that the Pencil is lacking.

    As for reviews, I'm really looking forward to seeing what Ray Frenden thinks once he's used it. I'm still not sure if I'm going to wait for his review, or just go ahead and order it anyway.
  • Reply 236 of 247
    bsenka wrote: »
    Linda Dong? Yeah, she's taken a lot of flack for not disclosing that she was part of the team that built the Pencil, and grossly misrepesenting how Wacom styluses do and do not work. It was PR, nothing more. She even took some of the glaring negatives of the Pencil like the lack of side switches and tried to paint those as positives.

    Again, I've not seen a single feature or function listed or demoed for the Pencil that I have not already been using for years with Wacom products. If anything Wacom still has many features that the Pencil is lacking.

    As for reviews, I'm really looking forward to seeing what Ray Frenden thinks once he's used it. I'm still not sure if I'm going to wait for his review, or just go ahead and order it anyway.

    I hadn't heard about any of that, and I'm not even certain that Linda Dong was her name (although my guess would be yes), I just remember something about her having previously worked for Apple so I took that sole pro-Pencil/iPad Pro review with a grain of salt. Not a big deal, we'll get more than our fill the week it officially launches.
  • Reply 237 of 247
    solipsismy wrote: »
    Not a big deal, we'll get more than our fill the week it officially launches.

    I'm sure we will! The hyperbole will be strong on both sides!
  • Reply 238 of 247
    bsenka wrote: »
    I'm sure we will! The hyperbole will be strong on both sides!

    Sure, I'm pretty sure we'll be able to figure out the middle ground pretty easily based on our long history of reading/watching technology.
  • Reply 239 of 247
    solipsismy wrote: »
    Sure, I'm pretty sure we'll be able to figure out the middle ground pretty easily based on our long history of reading/watching technology.

    Sometimes, without actually using the products, you just don't know who is right. I think these products are the types you not only have to use, but use enough to know what the differences are. I expect a lot of reviews that seem to make sense only if you don't know enough to know the difference. Given how most people on this board scoff at the Surface Pro, (and styluses in general) it's really clear that they are not able to figure out that middle ground -- they just don't know what they're talking about.
  • Reply 240 of 247
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,238member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bsenka View Post





    Sometimes, without actually using the products, you just don't know who is right. I think these products are the types you not only have to use, but use enough to know what the differences are. I expect a lot of reviews that seem to make sense only if you don't know enough to know the difference. Given how most people on this board scoff at the Surface Pro, (and styluses in general) it's really clear that they are not able to figure out that middle ground -- they just don't know what they're talking about.

    For the record, Linda Dong was only talking about the Cintiq. She mentioned a number of faults with it including; latency, parallax, poor color, and a relatively dark screen. She mentioned that the IPad Pro screen had little resistance, and some people might not like that. All of those points seem fair, and there seemed to be a great deal of agreement on those issues by readers on the various sites that her original post was linked.

     

    She also had good things to say about Wacom Intros.

     

    Perhaps you are too a little too defensive?

     

    Whatever, we will know once the iPad Pro arrives.

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