All this might be true but the Surface runs the full blown Win10 OS while the iPad Pro is hindered with iOS. If this has OS X then the comparisons would be valid.
No, because Windows 10 is a POS OS. Simple as that.
The tablet portion has crap apps if they even exist while you'd be better off just buying a better cheaper laptop if you're really into auto-flagellation with Windows...
The important thing , what the hell more can you do with Win 10 than with IOS or even OSX... Next to nothing right now.
In a year, I'd wager IOS will pull ahead in software and MS will be in deep trouble.
If that's the actual Geekbench result for the 820 then it's pathetic. Very good single core results but horrible multicore. It should be getting somewhere around 7000 for multicore if a single core can hit 2100.
The ipad can work for some classes of user - mainly management types that only do light computing and some mobile workers - but, they are not a good fit for a large portion of information worker in an enterprise. Why? Well one is the small screen - and no real dock option to pair it with a larger monitor. It's inability to run legacy desktop applications. It's inability to run MANY internal enterprise web applications. No AD integration, no file management (and yes that is important), limited local storage.
So, the real work that can't be done:
Any job that requires a 1st or 3rd party web application that involves an interface using flash, Silverlight, java, or AD integration
Any job that requires a 1st or 3rd party windows desktop application
Software developers (of which there are hundreds if not thousands at the company I work for and software is not the primary business here)
Sorry, but, there is lots and lots of real work that an ipad is not suited for. There are lots of jobs that a surface isn't suited for as well - however, the size of that group is much smaller.
There are more workers that work in environments not behind a desk 8 hours a day than there are in-front of a desk 8 hours a day. A lot of jobs that could easily use a computer that is easily used while holding in your hands. The whole world does not revolve around rows of rows of people at desks doing data entry - and if it did .... the economy would be highly inefficient.
Isn't that the point though? For the 1% (or larger) of the population who do need full Photoshop or Illustrator or Lightroom or Visual Studio, the Surface Pro makes sense.
There's room in the market for both the iPad Pro and Surface Pro.
The funny thing is that this whole argument seems to depend on a handfull of apps... When, and yes, when they will come to IOS., the poor little fools ill be left speachless even in their specious argument.
I'll take that a step further. I have a SP3. It's a far clumsier laptop than an MBA, and a far clumsier tablet than a regular iPad. Whatever the claims or even measured benchmarks, everything feels faster on an iPad than the SP3. Everything feels faster on an MBA. The SP3 has terrible battery life, poor color accuracy, and bipolar software. I would much rather carry an iPad and an MBA, than that hot mess of a Microsoft product, and we haven't even touched on using it in your lap.
The lack of a file system, and admittedly poor I/O capabilities, make the iPad Pro pro less of a true laptop, but as a photo modification and portfolio device it's awesome. I'll bet it will find a home in photo and video studios. Add in it's other capabilities, and it will be used as a laptop replacement by many folks. Not everyone needs a "true computer." Folks who belittle the iPad as merely a media consumption device are either ignorant, or willfully ignorant.
Displaymate disagrees with you on color accuracy:
Quote:
With its third generation Surface Pro 3, Microsoft has produced an excellent professional grade high performance display for Windows. In fact, based on our extensive lab tests and measurements, the Surface Pro 3 has one of the very best and most accurate displays available on any mobile platform and OS. It joins near the top of a small set of Tablets that have excellent Top Tier displays – for professionals that need a very accurate and high performance display for their work, and for consumers that want and appreciate a really nice and beautiful display. We’ll cover these issues and much more, with in-depth comprehensive display tests, measurements and analysis that you will find nowhere else.
There are more workers that work in environments not behind a desk 8 hours a day than there are in-front of a desk 8 hours a day. A lot of jobs that could easily use a computer that is easily used while holding in your hands. The whole world does not revolve around rows of rows of people at desks doing data entry - and if it did .... the economy would be highly inefficient.
Yes, these days, reading, analysing, slightly modifying, deciding, forwarding, iterating, data is much more prevalent than the old one person does the whole thing PC world.
In this new agile engineering like world (which is now the lot of all business), big end point producers are less and less prevalent. Working cumulatively and iteratively on producing something is well tuned to mobile/tablets as a main UI.
Doesn't matter because most app can't use them., if they can use all the cores, they're using them very inefficiently. Not surprising because general type apps are not well atuned to doing such things.
A high IPC and access to better process is what allowed Intel to crush AMD, Apple is doing the same to others on mobile.
Seems they didn't learn the lesson even if it was 15 years old!
Not even close - the Microsoft one is a fabric type cover.... the Logitech one is a hardshell keyboard independent of the iPad.
Either way I would not buy either of them. If a keyboard is that important for you then you are likely using it as a laptop and that is better served by a Macbook.
Come on, give me a fracking break. You''re are an intellectually dishonest person. Simple as that.
That your IT department has lagged so far behind in mobile shows a lack of vision and strategic planning. Your competitors that do have mobile already intergrated in their work flow will or have already blown you guys out of the water.
We do have mobile in our strategy and lots of mobile apps. And we are number one in our industry. However, there are thousands of internal systems that have been in place for years that are indispensable and it would take lots and lots of time and money to replace them.
Even a fortune 50 company has a finite number of resources (people and dollars). Those resources have to be prioritized. There isn't a large enterprise around that is not going to have these same challenges.
So what Microsoft was really saying was that it all comes down to developers...developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!............
So maybe Steve Ballmer was right after all...
...and, ladies and gentlemen, the Remix!!!
And you forgot to mention the Microsoft **** is just so damn UGLY, as is their operating system (when it works).
Do any of you actually work in an enterprise? Do you know how much custom software - much of it legacy - a typical large enterprise runs? I work for a fortune 50 company and I can tell you we have hundreds of web applications (probably thousands, but, this just the small part of the company I am aware of) that can't be used on an ipad at all. Sites that require flash or Silverlight or java - or some ie specific behavior. Sure, we are trying to change that with new applications to make them more mobile friently - but, that doesn't do anything for all those hundreds of legacy 1st and 3rd party web applications that are used every day to get real work done. It will take a lot of time and most importantly lots of dollars to convert those legacy apps - making those conversions very much a non-priority for management. And I didn't even mention the hundreds of custom windows desktop applications.
The only users that use iPads are basically management types - who spend the majority of their day in meetings and reading/sending email and looking at dashboards.
Then you work in a backwards company.
That your IT department has lagged so far behind in mobile shows a lack of vision and strategic planning. Your competitors that do have mobile already intergrated in their work flow will or have already blown you guys out of the water.
I don't work for a large corporation like say... Apple Inc. So I can't really speak to this.
Apple is not a backwards company, far from it.
Yet I find it hard to believe that thousands of people grinding away at their jobs day-in and day-out at Apple Inc. could do their jobs with only an iPad Pro and their iPhone.
They likely need full blown OSX computers.
Just a thought, again I don't know and could be totally wrong.
Ah yes, the lab test says...only problem being, my eyes were not created in a lab. The Surface screen, of which I expected so much, produces slightly washed out, yellow tinged color. I've tried to find calibration controls to address this (settings are scattered all over the device), but to no avail. placing the Surface next to the iPad Pro, by comparison, the iPad's screen is a revelation. My MkI Eyeball test was quite conclusive to me. Your testing lab may vary.
Another way to look at labs vs reality is to consider TVs with a store display mode. It's designed to grab your attention. In lab tests, store display mode would set high marks for brightness and contrast while actually doing a very poor job of delivering accurate color, highlight or shadow detail. Probably more than any other measure, screen display quality is highly subjective. I would never buy a display screen on the basis of lab tests. In the real world, my sample size of one SP3 produces noticeably inferior color to the sample of one iPad Pro in my possession. As a result, the SP3 will sit unused in a drawer for a few years until it gets recycled. The iPad, and its beautiful screen will likely be part of my photography workflow for years to come.
While Qualcomm says the processor can clocked at upwards of 2.2GHz that particular one shows up underclocked at just 1.59GHz. And again it may not be all that important.
Clock speed is irrelevant. If you have a single core at 2100 then the theoretical maximum for 4 cores would be 8400. In the real world this isn't possible for various reasons which is why I stated it should be getting closer to 7000 for multicore. To get 4700 is actually pathetic.
Edited: My 7000 figure was generous. Looking at the worse-case scenarios for other ARM quad core processors, the MINIMUM it should be getting is around 5700 (or just under 3x the single core score). As I said, really quite pathetic to only get 2.3x your single core score when running 4 cores when others are getting anywhere from 2.7x (5700) to 3.1x (6500) the single core result.
No, it's not true.... You do have to design thing so they don't work like garbage in touch mode.
Which is basically what nearly 100% of windows touch apps are right now,
The proof is in the reality, not the made imaginary, marketing doc, world.
Touch is a central feature of the WUA UI framework - just as it for iOS.
The topic of UI layout and usability, is not dependent on the ui framework a developer chooses to use. You can create garbage iOS apps just as easily as you can create a garbage WUA, Win32, or Java application.
Doesn't matter because most app can't use them., if they can use all the cores, they're using them very inefficiently. Not surprising because general type apps are not well atuned to doing such things.
A high IPC and access to better process is what allowed Intel to crush AMD, Apple is doing the same to others on mobile.
Seems they didn't learn the lesson even if it was 15 years old!
I believe I already stated that most software can't use all the cores to their full potential. But benchmarks can, which is the only test where an Exynos 8 core processor can "appear" to be as fast as a 2 core A9. In the real world it's not even close.
Touch is a central feature of the WUA UI framework - just as it for iOS.
The topic of UI layout and usability, is not dependent on the ui framework a developer chooses to use. You can create garbage iOS apps just as easily as you can create a garbage WUA, Win32, or Java application.
You're missing the point. Vast majority of Windows developers DO NOT optimize specifically for touch. The majority of iOS developer DO. This is why, for example, iOS iPad Apps are vastly superior to Android tablet Apps as the Android developers are (for the most part) too lazy to optimize for the larger screen.
Clock speed is irrelevant. If you have a single core at 2100 then the theoretical maximum for 4 cores would be 8400. In the real world this isn't possible for various reasons which is why I stated it should be getting closer to 7000 for multicore. To get 4700 is actually pathetic.
Edited: My 7000 figure was generous. Looking at the worse-case scenarios for other ARM quad core processors, the MINIMUM it should be getting is around 5700 (or just under 3x the single core score). As I said, really quite pathetic to only get 2.3x your single core score when running 4 cores when others are getting anywhere from 2.7x (5700) to 3.1x (6500) the single core result.
Qualcomm has a recent history of very good single processor results yet lagging multi-core. The 820 may be no different. Few outside of Qualcomm ( and Sammy ) know yet. The other features of the chip are what I see as more interesting anyway, as I already mentioned. Still need to "taste the pudding" to know what it benefits in the wild. Perhaps nothing at all. Perhaps a lot. Processor benchmark results aren't the only thing important.
Comments
All this might be true but the Surface runs the full blown Win10 OS while the iPad Pro is hindered with iOS. If this has OS X then the comparisons would be valid.
No, because Windows 10 is a POS OS. Simple as that.
The tablet portion has crap apps if they even exist while you'd be better off just buying a better cheaper laptop if you're really into auto-flagellation with Windows...
The important thing , what the hell more can you do with Win 10 than with IOS or even OSX... Next to nothing right now.
In a year, I'd wager IOS will pull ahead in software and MS will be in deep trouble.
While Qualcomm says the processor can clocked at upwards of 2.2GHz that particular one shows up underclocked at just 1.59GHz. And again it may not be all that important.
Which is actually absolutely true. You do understand that there is a huge difference between the ui frameworks of a WUA and classic Win32 app right?
No, it's not true.... You do have to design thing so they don't work like garbage in touch mode.
Which is basically what nearly 100% of windows touch apps are right now,
The proof is in the reality, not the made imaginary, marketing doc, world.
The ipad can work for some classes of user - mainly management types that only do light computing and some mobile workers - but, they are not a good fit for a large portion of information worker in an enterprise. Why? Well one is the small screen - and no real dock option to pair it with a larger monitor. It's inability to run legacy desktop applications. It's inability to run MANY internal enterprise web applications. No AD integration, no file management (and yes that is important), limited local storage.
So, the real work that can't be done:
Any job that requires a 1st or 3rd party web application that involves an interface using flash, Silverlight, java, or AD integration
Any job that requires a 1st or 3rd party windows desktop application
Software developers (of which there are hundreds if not thousands at the company I work for and software is not the primary business here)
Sorry, but, there is lots and lots of real work that an ipad is not suited for. There are lots of jobs that a surface isn't suited for as well - however, the size of that group is much smaller.
There are more workers that work in environments not behind a desk 8 hours a day than there are in-front of a desk 8 hours a day. A lot of jobs that could easily use a computer that is easily used while holding in your hands. The whole world does not revolve around rows of rows of people at desks doing data entry - and if it did .... the economy would be highly inefficient.
Isn't that the point though? For the 1% (or larger) of the population who do need full Photoshop or Illustrator or Lightroom or Visual Studio, the Surface Pro makes sense.
There's room in the market for both the iPad Pro and Surface Pro.
The funny thing is that this whole argument seems to depend on a handfull of apps... When, and yes, when they will come to IOS., the poor little fools ill be left speachless even in their specious argument.
I'll take that a step further. I have a SP3. It's a far clumsier laptop than an MBA, and a far clumsier tablet than a regular iPad. Whatever the claims or even measured benchmarks, everything feels faster on an iPad than the SP3. Everything feels faster on an MBA. The SP3 has terrible battery life, poor color accuracy, and bipolar software. I would much rather carry an iPad and an MBA, than that hot mess of a Microsoft product, and we haven't even touched on using it in your lap.
The lack of a file system, and admittedly poor I/O capabilities, make the iPad Pro pro less of a true laptop, but as a photo modification and portfolio device it's awesome. I'll bet it will find a home in photo and video studios. Add in it's other capabilities, and it will be used as a laptop replacement by many folks. Not everyone needs a "true computer." Folks who belittle the iPad as merely a media consumption device are either ignorant, or willfully ignorant.
Displaymate disagrees with you on color accuracy:
There are more workers that work in environments not behind a desk 8 hours a day than there are in-front of a desk 8 hours a day. A lot of jobs that could easily use a computer that is easily used while holding in your hands. The whole world does not revolve around rows of rows of people at desks doing data entry - and if it did .... the economy would be highly inefficient.
Yes, these days, reading, analysing, slightly modifying, deciding, forwarding, iterating, data is much more prevalent than the old one person does the whole thing PC world.
In this new agile engineering like world (which is now the lot of all business), big end point producers are less and less prevalent. Working cumulatively and iteratively on producing something is well tuned to mobile/tablets as a main UI.
True. And where did Microsoft get the idea of replacing Windows Tablet PC's 20-years of pen-based input with multitouch finger gestures?
Not from apple - the original surface was the table top computer - from 2006, when the iPhone was just a rumor.
And that's why Apple still makes Macs, no?
Precisely.
My understanding is the first versions could only use 4 cores at once, but now they can use all 8 cores at the same time.
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/02/samsung-continues-the-many-core-madness-with-6-and-8-core-exynos-chips/
Doesn't matter because most app can't use them., if they can use all the cores, they're using them very inefficiently. Not surprising because general type apps are not well atuned to doing such things.
A high IPC and access to better process is what allowed Intel to crush AMD, Apple is doing the same to others on mobile.
Seems they didn't learn the lesson even if it was 15 years old!
Not even close - the Microsoft one is a fabric type cover.... the Logitech one is a hardshell keyboard independent of the iPad.
Either way I would not buy either of them. If a keyboard is that important for you then you are likely using it as a laptop and that is better served by a Macbook.
Come on, give me a fracking break. You''re are an intellectually dishonest person. Simple as that.
Then you work in a backwards company.
That your IT department has lagged so far behind in mobile shows a lack of vision and strategic planning. Your competitors that do have mobile already intergrated in their work flow will or have already blown you guys out of the water.
We do have mobile in our strategy and lots of mobile apps. And we are number one in our industry. However, there are thousands of internal systems that have been in place for years that are indispensable and it would take lots and lots of time and money to replace them.
Even a fortune 50 company has a finite number of resources (people and dollars). Those resources have to be prioritized. There isn't a large enterprise around that is not going to have these same challenges.
So maybe Steve Ballmer was right after all...
...and, ladies and gentlemen, the Remix!!!
And you forgot to mention the Microsoft **** is just so damn UGLY, as is their operating system (when it works).
Cheers,
Cameron
Do any of you actually work in an enterprise? Do you know how much custom software - much of it legacy - a typical large enterprise runs? I work for a fortune 50 company and I can tell you we have hundreds of web applications (probably thousands, but, this just the small part of the company I am aware of) that can't be used on an ipad at all. Sites that require flash or Silverlight or java - or some ie specific behavior. Sure, we are trying to change that with new applications to make them more mobile friently - but, that doesn't do anything for all those hundreds of legacy 1st and 3rd party web applications that are used every day to get real work done. It will take a lot of time and most importantly lots of dollars to convert those legacy apps - making those conversions very much a non-priority for management. And I didn't even mention the hundreds of custom windows desktop applications.
The only users that use iPads are basically management types - who spend the majority of their day in meetings and reading/sending email and looking at dashboards.
Then you work in a backwards company.
That your IT department has lagged so far behind in mobile shows a lack of vision and strategic planning. Your competitors that do have mobile already intergrated in their work flow will or have already blown you guys out of the water.
I don't work for a large corporation like say... Apple Inc. So I can't really speak to this.
Apple is not a backwards company, far from it.
Yet I find it hard to believe that thousands of people grinding away at their jobs day-in and day-out at Apple Inc. could do their jobs with only an iPad Pro and their iPhone.
They likely need full blown OSX computers.
Just a thought, again I don't know and could be totally wrong.
Displaymate disagrees with you on color accuracy:
Ah yes, the lab test says...only problem being, my eyes were not created in a lab. The Surface screen, of which I expected so much, produces slightly washed out, yellow tinged color. I've tried to find calibration controls to address this (settings are scattered all over the device), but to no avail. placing the Surface next to the iPad Pro, by comparison, the iPad's screen is a revelation. My MkI Eyeball test was quite conclusive to me. Your testing lab may vary.
Another way to look at labs vs reality is to consider TVs with a store display mode. It's designed to grab your attention. In lab tests, store display mode would set high marks for brightness and contrast while actually doing a very poor job of delivering accurate color, highlight or shadow detail. Probably more than any other measure, screen display quality is highly subjective. I would never buy a display screen on the basis of lab tests. In the real world, my sample size of one SP3 produces noticeably inferior color to the sample of one iPad Pro in my possession. As a result, the SP3 will sit unused in a drawer for a few years until it gets recycled. The iPad, and its beautiful screen will likely be part of my photography workflow for years to come.
Which is actually absolutely true. You do understand that there is a huge difference between the ui frameworks of a WUA and classic Win32 app right?
I see foggyhill already answered for me.
https://www.qualcomm.com/products/snapdragon/processors/820
While Qualcomm says the processor can clocked at upwards of 2.2GHz that particular one shows up underclocked at just 1.59GHz. And again it may not be all that important.
Clock speed is irrelevant. If you have a single core at 2100 then the theoretical maximum for 4 cores would be 8400. In the real world this isn't possible for various reasons which is why I stated it should be getting closer to 7000 for multicore. To get 4700 is actually pathetic.
Edited: My 7000 figure was generous. Looking at the worse-case scenarios for other ARM quad core processors, the MINIMUM it should be getting is around 5700 (or just under 3x the single core score). As I said, really quite pathetic to only get 2.3x your single core score when running 4 cores when others are getting anywhere from 2.7x (5700) to 3.1x (6500) the single core result.
No, it's not true.... You do have to design thing so they don't work like garbage in touch mode.
Which is basically what nearly 100% of windows touch apps are right now,
The proof is in the reality, not the made imaginary, marketing doc, world.
Touch is a central feature of the WUA UI framework - just as it for iOS.
The topic of UI layout and usability, is not dependent on the ui framework a developer chooses to use. You can create garbage iOS apps just as easily as you can create a garbage WUA, Win32, or Java application.
Doesn't matter because most app can't use them., if they can use all the cores, they're using them very inefficiently. Not surprising because general type apps are not well atuned to doing such things.
A high IPC and access to better process is what allowed Intel to crush AMD, Apple is doing the same to others on mobile.
Seems they didn't learn the lesson even if it was 15 years old!
I believe I already stated that most software can't use all the cores to their full potential. But benchmarks can, which is the only test where an Exynos 8 core processor can "appear" to be as fast as a 2 core A9. In the real world it's not even close.
Touch is a central feature of the WUA UI framework - just as it for iOS.
The topic of UI layout and usability, is not dependent on the ui framework a developer chooses to use. You can create garbage iOS apps just as easily as you can create a garbage WUA, Win32, or Java application.
You're missing the point. Vast majority of Windows developers DO NOT optimize specifically for touch. The majority of iOS developer DO. This is why, for example, iOS iPad Apps are vastly superior to Android tablet Apps as the Android developers are (for the most part) too lazy to optimize for the larger screen.