Apple to pay Italy $348M, sign accord to circumvent allegations of unpaid taxes

245

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 88
    larryalarrya Posts: 581member
    sog35 said:
    And the stock is down $6 billion today because of a $300 million fine.

    Friken ridiculous.  Its time to fire Tim Cook and install a CEO who knows how to deal with Wall Street. 
    The stock impact is magnified because this gives lie to the statements about "paying all taxes owed", and could just be the tip of the iceberg as other countries demand similar settlements.  So, still on Mr. cook, but I disagree that his incompetence is in investor relations, and more about government lobbying and risk management. 
    justbobf
  • Reply 22 of 88
    jonljonl Posts: 210member
    sog35 said:

    That's simpleton thinking.

    While your daily stream of tantrumness is amusing in small doses, you're really just a tiresome crank. I find it rather dishonest for you to pose the question, get called on it, and then deflect it instead of posting what would be a revealing answer.

    singularitylord amhranronnargonaut
  • Reply 23 of 88
    ac1234 said:
    That isn't true. The CEO isn't necessarily in charge of the supply chain. Supply chain management involves mathematical and statistical modeling, which Cook, being an engineer, was qualified for. Steve Jobs wasn't.
    You obviously have no corporate or management experience - the CEO IS RESPONSIBLE for everything within the corporation.
    You don't know me dude. Nonetheless, I wasn't originally talking about responsibility. I was talking about what type of CEO I'd rather have in charge. I would much rather have someone who's an expert at supply chain management than someone who's good at investor/media relation. This is an "either or" proposition. It's impossible to be good at everything the CEO is "responsible" for.
    justbobfargonaut
  • Reply 24 of 88
    sog35 said:
    Apple doesn't sell iOS. It sells iPhones.
    Ridiculous.

    So you think it cost Apple $0 to develop and maintain iOS?
    Do you think it cost Apple $0 to maintain the App Store, Maps, ApplePay, iTunes, ect?

    Apple could easily assign a cost and selling price for iOS per phone and iPad.  But they don't. That just shows how tone deaf they are from what investors want to hear.


    I'm not talking about cost. I'm talking about revenues made from sales.
  • Reply 25 of 88
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,432member
    sog35 said:Well then Cook should hire someone who knows how to articulate with Wall Street an investors the vision of Apple.

    He has NOT hired anyone and instead has tried to articulate the vision himself.  He has FAILED.  Wall Street and investors still view Apple as simply a hardware company.  Apple is a lifestyle and ecosystem company. Yet Wall Street does not think so.  That's Tim Cooks fault.

    Either Cook needs to hire someone who can articulate this vision or he must step down.

    Your hatred for Tim Cook is borderline hysterical. Get a grip. Tim Cook cannot control Wall Street. No one can. Wall St. looks at a company's ability to continue to grow within current market conditions - that's all they care about. Tim Cook and Apple have proven Wall St. wrong over and over again for the passed few years, yet they continue to believe Apple is on the verge of collapse. There is absolutely nothing Tim Cook can do to convince them otherwise. How in the world does everyone in the world view Apple as a platform company and Wall St. fails to see that unless they just don't care about all of that? Wall St. only cares about markets; All companies you keep mentioning are monopolies in their respective markets; Google: search/ad, Microsoft: desktop OS, Amazon: online retail. And as long as they push out initiatives that "help" keep their standing, then Wall St. will love them for it.

    Apple is not a monopoly in their main "market"; hardware/devices, and they never have and probably never will be. They've always been an enigma to Wall St. This is nothing new and I seriously doubt it will ever change. So, I'm not sure why you're acting this way now? Perhaps you just recently became a shareholder?
    singularityjustbobfargonautmaxit
  • Reply 26 of 88
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    sog35 said:
    mjtomlin said:

    LMAO

    This has to be the dumbest comment ever posted.
    Why is it dumb?  This fine is the only reason the stock is down so much. 

    Because of Tim Cook every single slight negative gets blown out of proportion. The reason is because Wall Street thinks Apple is a hardware company, the iPhone Inc.  And that is a failure of Tim Cook not conviencing Wall Street Apple is an ecosystem company.
    This fine is just the start.  Australia and Ireland will follow and moves are afoot to close the door on this sort of dreadful multinational corporate tax minimisation so the days of Apple and other multinationals amassing huge piles of cash, to the extent they have been able to paying just 2% tax, may be soon over.

    Add in a dose of -

    Foxconn reduces overtime as iPhone holiday sales fall 5% to 10% under expectations?


    - and you have a bad news day.

    edited December 2015 justbobfargonaut
  • Reply 27 of 88
    ac1234ac1234 Posts: 138member
    sog35 said:
    Bullshit.

    At least 40% of iPhone's value is in the software and services.  
    iOS alone is worth $200 of the selling price.

    You can easily buy a phone that has the same hardware as an iPhone for $300-$400.
    The extra $200-$300 is paying for software/services/ecosystem.

    I can say the same thing about Mac sales, iPad sales, ect.
    Apple doesn't sell iOS. It sells iPhones.
    And iOS propels the sales of the hardware.....
  • Reply 28 of 88
    sog35 said:
    You don't know me dude. Nonetheless, I wasn't originally talking about responsibility. I was talking about what type of CEO I'd rather have in charge. I would much rather have someone who's an expert at supply chain management than someone who's good at investor/media relation. This is an "either or" proposition. It's impossible to be good at everything the CEO is "responsible" for.
    That's idiotic.  Of course their are CEO's who know how to run a business AND deal with Wall Street.

    The CEO's of Facebook, Google, Amazon, Netflix, and Microsoft all know how to run the business AND deal with Wall Street.  

    Its incredible that you have so low expectations for Tim Cook who gets paid HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars a year.
    And yet the board seem to love him, there's no shareholder revolt. I wonder why?
  • Reply 29 of 88
    ac1234ac1234 Posts: 138member

    cnocbui said:
    sog35 said:
    Why is it dumb?  This fine is the only reason the stock is down so much. 

    Because of Tim Cook every single slight negative gets blown out of proportion. The reason is because Wall Street thinks Apple is a hardware company, the iPhone Inc.  And that is a failure of Tim Cook not conviencing Wall Street Apple is an ecosystem company.
    This fine is just the start.  Australia and Ireland will follow and moves are afoot to close the door on this sort of dreadful multinational corporate tax minimisation so the days of Apple and other multinationals amassing huge piles of cash, to the extent they have been able to paying just 2% tax, may be soon over.

    Add in a dose of -

    Foxconn reduces overtime as iPhone holiday sales fall 5% to 10% under expectations?


    - and you have a bad news day.

    This settlement is a great concern w/i the EU.  With Italy getting the payments all other EU governments are being encouraged to go for it.  Reports for the holiday sales are touting Fitbit as the smart watch that dominated sales (volume vs profit is an unknown).  Eddy "The Slob" Cue can't close movie content deals / Apple TV 4 missing 4k capability and being released so late is a big miss.  HOMEKIT must be another "hobby" like Apple TV.  These are among the things as to why AAPL is trading so low.  That huge pile of cash can be squandered / lost faster than most of us think.
    edited December 2015 justbobf
  • Reply 30 of 88
    sog35 said:

    I'm not talking about cost. I'm talking about revenues made from sales.
    If you can't see that people buy iPhones/iPads/Macs because of iOS/OSX and Apple's ecosystem then I can't help you.

    Apple could easily split the sales from iPhones into software and hardware but they choose not to.  Go look up GAAP standards and you will see Apple could do so.  If they did over 40% of Apple's sales would be software/services related.  But Tim Cook is too stupid to do it.

    This is exactly what this wealth firm said Apple should do:
    http://www.streetinsider.com/Hedge+Funds/Quarz+Capital+Urges+Split+of+Apple+(AAPL)+SoftwareServices+Numbers+from+Hardware%3B+Sees+Stock+at+$200/11056613.html


    Quarz Capital Urges Split of Apple (AAPL) Software/Services Numbers from Hardware; Sees Stock at $200


    This is exactly what Amazon did when they broke out their Cloud Services division.  Amazon is up 100% since they did that move.
    This is nonsense and a total overreaction which is just as bad as the Wall Street clowns overreacting to all the supply chain noise. Do you honestly believe that nobody on Wall Street knows when you buy an iPhone you're paying for the software and services as well as the hardware? Do you honestly think if Apple sold iOS for $650 and said you get a free phone with it the company would be valued differently? No. And let's face it where Apple is really killing it IS with hardware, especially their chip team. The majority of issues they have are directly related to software and services. You want the stock to jump? Have Tim Cook announce a new SVP level position for all of Apple's cloud business including Siri and Maps. Announce that Eddy Cue's main focus is going to be all of Apple's content businesses (iTunes, TV, Music) and expanding Pay. Wall Street is obsessed with the cloud and is also obsessed with seeing recurring non-hardware revenue streams from Apple. An announcement like this would tell Wall Street Apple is serious about both.
    justbobf
  • Reply 31 of 88
    sog35 said:
    And yet the board seem to love him, there's no shareholder revolt. I wonder why?
    The board loves him because their pockets are lined with gold no matter if the stock goes up or down.

    There are many shareholders who are getting impatient. If Apple goes to $90 you can bet you will see many shareholders calling for Tim Cooks head.
    You do realise that by paying a fine to settle it is indicative that the price of waiting for final judgement would be far higher and is usually seen as an admission of guilt. Regardless of any press release saying they have done nothing wrong. Also every other country in the EU will be looking to see if Apple's tax structure is set out as too aggressive.
    For example I do know that HMRC has the power to retrospectively declare a scheme as illegal even if for years it was OK and demand full repayment. That is a huge potential liability! So it can easily reflect in a drop in stock as some investors cash out now and consolidate any gains.
    So in essence a fairly reasonable explanation to the stock price
    justbobfargonaut
  • Reply 32 of 88
    xbitxbit Posts: 298member
    sog35 said:

    There are many shareholders who are getting impatient. 
    Well, I'm not one of them. I'm glad that Tim Cook is in charge rather than a Wall Street guy like John Sculley.
    justbobf
  • Reply 33 of 88
    ac1234ac1234 Posts: 138member
    sog35 said:
    ac1234 said:

    This settlement is a great concern w/i the EU.  With Italy getting the payments all other EU governments are being encouraged to go for it.  Reports for the holiday sales are touting Fitbit as the smart watch that dominated sales (volume vs profit is an unknown).  Eddy "The Slob" Cue can't close movie content deals / Apple TV 4 missing 4k capability and being released so late is a big miss.  These are among the things as to why AAPL is trading so low.  That huge pile of cash can be squandered / lost faster than most of us think.
    The Italy case and the EU case are totally different.  Just because Apple settled with Italy does not mean a thing regarding the EU case.

    Fitbit is not a competitor of AppleWatch. That's like comparing Louis Vutton bags to Glad Trash bags.
    Disagree - the EU governments needing money will see any settlement CASH from Apple as an opportunity for them to get cash - basic governmental thinking for heaven's sake.  The Fitbit comment was added by me as more of the negative narrative that Tim Cook is not countering.
    edited December 2015 justbobf
  • Reply 34 of 88
    sog35 said:
    You don't know me dude. Nonetheless, I wasn't originally talking about responsibility. I was talking about what type of CEO I'd rather have in charge. I would much rather have someone who's an expert at supply chain management than someone who's good at investor/media relation. This is an "either or" proposition. It's impossible to be good at everything the CEO is "responsible" for.
    That's idiotic.  Of course their are CEO's who know how to run a business AND deal with Wall Street.

    The CEO's of Facebook, Google, Amazon, Netflix, and Microsoft all know how to run the business AND deal with Wall Street.  

    Its incredible that you have so low expectations for Tim Cook who gets paid HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars a year.
    Amazon's CEO isn't a supply chain expert, nor was Steve Jobs. I doubt Tim Cook knows what memcached is. They're not experts in many different fields within the company. That's almost impossible. That's not the same, however, as being able to "run a business". They absolutely can regardless.
  • Reply 35 of 88
    sog35 said:
    mjtomlin said:

    LMAO

    This has to be the dumbest comment ever posted.
    Why is it dumb?  This fine is the only reason the stock is down so much. 

    Because of Tim Cook every single slight negative gets blown out of proportion. The reason is because Wall Street thinks Apple is a hardware company, the iPhone Inc.  And that is a failure of Tim Cook not conviencing Wall Street Apple is an ecosystem company.
    I agree AAPL is grossly underpriced, but the drop today has more to do with the ~109 resistance level than the Italian tax issue.  AAPL has been in a sideways trading range since the end of Feb of this year. 

    It doesn't matter if AAPL's PE is ridiculously low, or AMZN's is ridiculously high, as the large investors (collectively) are putting their money where they think will get the largest gains.  One of my largest position is in AAPL, and I see it staying range bound until the large institutions decide it's gong to move.  I don't "trade" AAPL and am in it for a long term investment, so the price fluctuations don't matter to me unless I have a need to sell.

    One of the questions I asked myself, which helped me understand how the markets work was "Would you put any new money into AAPL right now?"  And, follow up questions "What compelling reason would you do so?"  "Can you put money to work in other areas and have better chance for short term gains while AAPL stays in it's range?"  Poor AAPL stock performance does not correlate to the performance of Apple as a company.  

    One of the reasons I like Apple is their long term focus - not that they are perfect at it, but I don't know of anyone better.  I think a number of good things come with this mindset, but the timetable may be inconvenient at times.  I think the short term price action of AAPL is, at times, a casualty of Apple's long term approach.
    mwhiteargonaut
  • Reply 36 of 88
    Then Apple has a solid basis for suing Ireland for fraud, haven't they?
    No
    Defend your position.
  • Reply 37 of 88
    Shouldn't Italy's beef be with Ireland, not Apple?
    You'd think so wouldn't you?
    Why would Italy try to extort Ireland, when Apple is such an easy target?
  • Reply 38 of 88
    sog35 said:

    This is Tim Cooks failure than. 

    Look at the CEO at Microsoft. He was able to leave the legacy of Mr Gates in the dust.
    I'm a little confused here. Microsoft is the poster child for companies that, try as they might, cannot replicate the success of the one or two products that made them market leaders. The new CEO hasn't been able to change that dynamic, though he at least seems to have a more coherent vision than his predecessor. The irony is that, no matter how forward-thinking they claim to be, Wall Street actually bets on very old perceptions — like Microsoft rules the computing roost and Apple is a niche player. Should Apple be working to change that? Maybe. As a shareholder I certainly wouldn't mind. Still, I'd much rather a company's management be focused on executing with solid, successful products than throwing dozens of ideas at the wall of buyers and seeing if anything sticks. At the moment, that's Apple, and its focus starts at the top, with Cook and Ive.
  • Reply 39 of 88
    No
    Defend your position.
    It isn't my position to defend but under EU law if Apple is found to have had "illegal" state aid then Apple has to pay back all the aid it has received.

    No fraud has been committed both parties are at fault. Other companies found to have been in receipt of illegal state aid have had to pay it back.

  • Reply 40 of 88
    Defend your position.
    It isn't my position to defend but under EU law if Apple is found to have had "illegal" state aid then Apple has to pay back all the aid it has received.

    No fraud has been committed both parties are at fault. Other companies found to have been in receipt of illegal state aid have had to pay it back.

    So you're saying this was illegal when Apple had the best tax lawyers and advisors on the planet advising them and they all missed this? Bull.

    And where's your supporting link or source for your last sentence?
    edited December 2015
Sign In or Register to comment.