Has anybody bothered asking the FBI exactly what they're hoping to find, and what proof there is that any such information will actually be, on the phone. I think you Americans call it probable cause or something although I may have watched one too many police programmes for my own good.
As I said in the other thread, I think this is just a fishing expedition by the FBI to get public support/court order for a back door. I'm sure they already have the terrorists iCloud data along with their e-mails, texts, computer hard drives, etc. I'm sure there is nothing on this iPhone that the FBI doesn't already know. Since the crime already happened, the FBI just needed to have a federal/local judge sign off on a search warrant to seize property (iPhone) for the investigation. It doesn't matter if there is something of value or not on the phone.
Should be no surprise to anyone. Apple already participated in anti-American activities back in 2000 when they got the government to do their dirty work for them with regards to the Microsoft monopoly case. No one then, nor now, has more of a monopoly than Apple. They rival the old railroad baron's of the 1800's when it comes to monopolies, but you don't see others bitching; not like they did. And the day after the verdict in 2000, that's the day the dot-bomb happened. How many jobs, how many companies and how much economic activity lost through no fault of their own in most cases, did this verdict supported and pushed by Apple, cause? It's firkin ridiculous to me that Apple has any right to deny the government anything given what they've done in the past, and furthermore, even more hilarious at how many no brain consumers would support such and organization. Better wake the f up people!
I've had to buy a Windows computer because a government mandate required Internet Explorer to upload mandated data. I had to borrow a Windows PC last week to access a cheaply designed interactive tutorial. Microsoft used their 95% market share in operating systems to crush the competition in Windows web browsers. That's why their hands were slapped in 2000. That's also why government and cheap corporate web designers still sometimes code for Windows and IE so strictly that their Mac-owning or iPhone owning users need to go find a Microsoft product to comply with mandates.
I'm over my feelings about Bill Gates now, because he's using his ill-gotten gains to fight endemic disease in Africa. That makes my complaints seem trivial.
They are going to spend all this effort on one phone.
I like the fact the government has convinced themselves because they could not find any treasure troves of information about these two elsewhere it must all be on the cell phone of the women. Yeah, if these two were smart enough to not leave any bread crumbs around to understand what they were doing and when why are they so convince the cell phone is the Holy Grail of information.
It is all smoke and mirrors, they are hoping no one notices they have nothing of any substance about these two and they are going to make an example of this to allow them access to what they otherwise can not get.
Keep in mind the FBI was asking the public to help fill in the 18 minutes of time they were unable to located this two. Again they some how thing this 18 minutes will answer all the un-answer questions.
Worse yet this was a WORK phone, their private phones they crushed to total destruction. Just like they discard their computer hard drive somewhere the FBI hasn't been able to find. Yet this phone's left alone....
Man what a bunch of one-sided responses as usual. rest assured China has backdoors in all of their products and probably half of our products made there. This is serious stuff - if the contacts in the phone stop another attack and loss of innocent lives it's worth it. I wonder how many of you nay-sayers would be talking like this if the next iphone preventable attack takes out your family members - probably none of you. Having court orders to get stuff is completely reasonable - and has been the case for decades. I think anyone crying foul like this has a lot of skeleton's in his or her closet. It's the price of a secure society, this issue isn't going to go away, and we can't allow an clandestine ISIS/whoever's next armies coordinating attacks in our country. If anyone has better ideas that will ensure safety - lets hear them! The real issue is Apple doesn't want to lose foreign sales due to the issues the Snowden revelations brought up. This is a commerce play - pure and simple as it always is with companies.
The FBI own statements suggest they have two out three phones unlocked and accessible. They have full access to any phone company information from that phone. The three people in question were going off to commit a terrorist attack they were unlikely to survive and even if they did their phones would most likely fall in to the hands of the law. So wouldn't they have wiped all useful information to before setting out.
All logic suggests there is little to no chance of there being uniquely useful information on that one phone.
You want a real solution - More police in the community as a friendly part of the community has been shown time and time again to reduce all crime.
Has anybody bothered asking the FBI exactly what they're hoping to find, and what proof there is that any such information will actually be, on the phone. I think you Americans call it probable cause or something although I may have watched one too many police programmes for my own good.
As I said in the other thread, I think this is just a fishing expedition by the FBI to get public support/court order for a back door. I'm sure they already have the terrorists iCloud data along with their e-mails, texts, computer hard drives, etc. I'm sure there is nothing on this iPhone that the FBI doesn't already know. Since the crime already happened, the FBI just needed to have a federal/local judge sign off on a search warrant to seize property (iPhone) for the investigation. It doesn't matter if there is something of value or not on the phone.
Agree. Assuming this mutant backed up his phone, the only things the FBI are missing are those since the last backup. If they are looking for evidence of collaborators and future attacks, isn't it reasonable to assume that such colleagues and plans would have emerged sooner than the day of the attack?
Come on Apple, just volunteer to help! Why not? I don't believe the yahoos who are posting comments here for a second that this would wreck the security for "all" iPhones. What? Now there are limits to what we can accomplish technologically? Surely Apple could open up just this one iPhone for the Feds, and get the information they need. How could that endanger all other iPhones out there, including mine?
If Apple complies with the order, they will be creating a security hole, and violating the privacy rights of people all over the world. The proposed hack involves a new OS install. Remember that Apple iPhones install OS upgrades remotely.
Even if they only do it once, never do it again, even if they wipe the hacking computers and use benzodiazepines to cause antegrade amnesia in the coders, the European Union will not believe them. A promise from US authorities won't mean much, when we are obligated to keep secret surveillance secret anyway.
A security hole is a hole, even it the hacker promises never to use it. Apple will be in violation of EU privacy law.
Apple's response, I assume, would be to close this security hole in the next version of the iPhone, if possible. Make it impossible to load a new OS which can bypass hardware security.
Criminals, terrorists, and democrats in tyrannical regimes all over the world will, in the meantime, have to figure out how to adapt to the Apple betrayal. Either a more secure phone, more secure apps, or better manual security features.
Come on Apple, just volunteer to help! Why not? I don't believe the yahoos who are posting comments here for a second that this would wreck the security for "all" iPhones. What? Now there are limits to what we can accomplish technologically? Surely Apple could open up just this one iPhone for the Feds, and get the information they need. How could that endanger all other iPhones out there, including mine?
Apple HAS been helping. The Feds are asking for a masterkey, software kit in the magistrates ruling not just this one phone. With the "promise" the FBI wouldn't either misuse it, share it or simply lose it... from an agency that has a long track record of doing all three.
If under their FBI supervision Apple worked on opening the phone in Apple's labs I could see it. But turn over software created to hack and defeat the iPhone's security? to the FBI? They can't keep track of their own firearms, or personal information, so: no. Plus the FBI leaks like a sieve so with no microphone going unloved you just know they'd brag, with details, on just how this was accomplished. And then other nations would set their teams to follow the road showed them by the FBI.
It seems like the FBI could come up with a software iPhone 5C emulator, make thousands of copies, copy the memory contents at a chip pin level from the real iPhone into each virtual machine copy, and brute force all possible password combinations with no regard for how many of the virtual iPhones get wiped. I'm sure the Chinese government's cyber hacker army would be more than happy to help the FBI with such an endeavor, maybe even help pay for it and offer up some cross-licensing agreements for continued collaboration. You can count on North Korea and Russia too. Make it a party.
I'm very disappointed the White House and President Obama would think the American public is naive enough to believe that this would be a "one time" deal. C'mon now, how stupid do you think we are?
Has anybody bothered asking the FBI exactly what they're hoping to find, and what proof there is that any such information will actually be, on the phone. I think you Americans call it probable cause...
Very Good Point!!
What if the FBI hacked their email and iCloud accounts... perhaps Apple can tell them how to hack into their Notes/Messages, etc accounts. Isn't that info in the "cloud" on a server somewhere? Or perhaps this was a long planned, pre-meditated act where there is no cloud data available.
All those apps have encrypted data. Granted it wouldn't have the problem of bricking the phone after X-many tries to decrypt it. However, if the perps activated 2 factor authentication you would still need to unlock the phone to get the security code when you tried to access iCloud.
Has anybody bothered asking the FBI exactly what they're hoping to find, and what proof there is that any such information will actually be, on the phone. I think you Americans call it probable cause or something although I may have watched one too many police programmes for my own good.
The "probable cause" has been met: the phone was in the physical possession of a murderer. As to what they're really hoping to find? Co-conspirator identities perhaps. BUT the murderers crushed their own private phones and discarded their hard drive so effectively the FBI can't find it so that this phone was simply left behind is a big signal it was used for work and nothing else. So it's going to be useless. But a nice juicy way for the FBI to get it's hands on a hacking software kit if the judge's rule is affirmed in the appeals courts.
This info is useful. So the iPhone is issued by the county? In this case the killer of course will not put too much private info on it.
How is it different? If they have to put in the software to enable this in the future, it's the same thing. Both the GOP and Dems are talking crap on this subject : they are of the same demagogic voice.
Also, they don't realize that if they allow this, this will essentially kill most Apple sales world wide...
There is some huge hellish mound of myopia from all politicians in the US.
If what the FBI is asking is to have Apple hack into this one iPhone, and Apple is saying that's not possible due to their own encryption, then that's the end of the story, no? I mean, Apple can't change iOS to add in a backdoor, so that they can gain access to a dead person's iPhone running a different version of iOS.
This whole things smells a bit fishy - as in why is Apple getting crap about this, when what this should be described as is the FBI wanting Apple to hack into this iPhone (by any means possible) to retrieve data. Either the FBI knows Apple can do it, and they're using this as a wedge to force compliance to something Apple has made it clear they don't support (using the courts and the court of public opinion), or Apple knows they can't hack the phone without creating something that may very well jeopardize the security of all iPhones going forward.
Frankly, I think the time and money being spent on this, is way overblown for the severity of the situation. Yes, it's terrible that innocent people lost their lives, but hundreds of innocent people lose their lives every day and we're not trying to roast a company who has made it a point to tell us they are protecting our data. This fear of terrorism takes away valuable time, money and resources that could actually do good, in the hopes of stopping something that may or may not happen. And given the numbers, terrorism in the US certainly is not even a fraction of what causes most of the senseless deaths each year.
Completely agree. As with all things American, I follow the money. MS and Goog and their business partners have a lot to gain by reducing Apple's business, and they have politicians in their pocket.
I really wish 'conflict of interest' would be reinstated in the US. Yes - and be maintained elsewhere, too.
It's a discrace that Apple must act as a whistle-blower and publicise political bullying. I'd rather see alcoholism and obesity be highlighted: 'we must crack your phone to know who suggested you visit KFC!!'
In any case, I imagine this will only further strengthen Apple as a company. I look forward to Apple's continuing successes.
Man what a bunch of one-sided responses as usual. rest assured China has backdoors in all of their products and probably half of our products made there. This is serious stuff - if the contacts in the phone stop another attack and loss of innocent lives it's worth it. I wonder how many of you nay-sayers would be talking like this if the next iphone preventable attack takes out your family members - probably none of you. Having court orders to get stuff is completely reasonable - and has been the case for decades. I think anyone crying foul like this has a lot of skeleton's in his or her closet. It's the price of a secure society, this issue isn't going to go away, and we can't allow an clandestine ISIS/whoever's next armies coordinating attacks in our country. If anyone has better ideas that will ensure safety - lets hear them! The real issue is Apple doesn't want to lose foreign sales due to the issues the Snowden revelations brought up. This is a commerce play - pure and simple as it always is with companies.
So you want to live in a dictatorship, we'll hell buy you're chinese infiltrated crap and apply to move there (if you're not there already); I'm sure the Chinese moving the other way in drove will be happy to sell you their house.
If Apple complies with the order, they will be creating a security hole, and violating the privacy rights of people all over the world. The proposed hack involves a new OS install. Remember that Apple iPhones install OS upgrades remotely.
Even if they only do it once, never do it again, even if they wipe the hacking computers and use benzodiazepines to cause antegrade amnesia in the coders, the European Union will not believe them. A promise from US authorities won't mean much, when we are obligated to keep secret surveillance secret anyway.
A security hole is a hole, even it the hacker promises never to use it. Apple will be in violation of EU privacy law.
Apple's response, I assume, would be to close this security hole in the next version of the iPhone, if possible. Make it impossible to load a new OS which can bypass hardware security.
Criminals, terrorists, and democrats in tyrannical regimes all over the world will, in the meantime, have to figure out how to adapt to the Apple betrayal. Either a more secure phone, more secure apps, or better manual security features.
The secure enclave already can't be bypassed by software, in the 5c there is no such thing I believe so that's why it's even an option.
Should be no surprise to anyone. Apple already participated in anti-American activities back in 2000 when they got the government to do their dirty work for them with regards to the Microsoft monopoly case. No one then, nor now, has more of a monopoly than Apple. They rival the old railroad baron's of the 1800's when it comes to monopolies, but you don't see others bitching; not like they did. And the day after the verdict in 2000, that's the day the dot-bomb happened. How many jobs, how many companies and how much economic activity lost through no fault of their own in most cases, did this verdict supported and pushed by Apple, cause? It's firkin ridiculous to me that Apple has any right to deny the government anything given what they've done in the past, and furthermore, even more hilarious at how many no brain consumers would support such and organization. Better wake the f up people!
What in the hell are you talking about? Anti-American with regards to Microsoft? Apple has a monopoly? Blaming the dot-com crash on Apple? Apple denying the government what now? No brain consumers?
Tim Cook claims deep respect for the American people but apparently not enough to
help in the fight against terrorism. He is a true business man seeking to grow
his company. Apple is foolishly making us believe it doesnt already house the
decryption software-are we that naive? Apple is leveraging the situation throwing
the feedom card to pomp up its sales. Apple needs to sort out its priorities and
help with a solution rather than walk away. Tim please remove the dollar signs
from your eyes and count the lives lost at the hands of terrorists using your
products. I am not a Trump supporter but at least he displays some allegiance to
his country.
If they did their encryption software correctly, then even Apple cannot decrypt this phone or any other phone.
If they can do it, then they lied to everyone, and I would hope many iPhone owners will demand a refund. Their stock will plummet and probably wipe them out!
Comments
Microsoft used their 95% market share in operating systems to crush the competition in Windows web browsers. That's why their hands were slapped in 2000. That's also why government and cheap corporate web designers still sometimes code for Windows and IE so strictly that their Mac-owning or iPhone owning users need to go find a Microsoft product to comply with mandates.
I'm over my feelings about Bill Gates now, because he's using his ill-gotten gains to fight endemic disease in Africa. That makes my complaints seem trivial.
All logic suggests there is little to no chance of there being uniquely useful information on that one phone.
You want a real solution -
More police in the community as a friendly part of the community has been shown time and time again to reduce all crime.
If Apple complies with the order, they will be creating a security hole, and violating the privacy rights of people all over the world. The proposed hack involves a new OS install. Remember that Apple iPhones install OS upgrades remotely.
Even if they only do it once, never do it again, even if they wipe the hacking computers and use benzodiazepines to cause antegrade amnesia in the coders, the European Union will not believe them. A promise from US authorities won't mean much, when we are obligated to keep secret surveillance secret anyway.
A security hole is a hole, even it the hacker promises never to use it. Apple will be in violation of EU privacy law.
Apple's response, I assume, would be to close this security hole in the next version of the iPhone, if possible. Make it impossible to load a new OS which can bypass hardware security.
Criminals, terrorists, and democrats in tyrannical regimes all over the world will, in the meantime, have to figure out how to adapt to the Apple betrayal. Either a more secure phone, more secure apps, or better manual security features.
But no, they're solidly locked for years now: BIG warnings to not lose your passcode. Ever since iOS 8:
Apple HAS been helping. The Feds are asking for a masterkey, software kit in the magistrates ruling not just this one phone. With the "promise" the FBI wouldn't either misuse it, share it or simply lose it... from an agency that has a long track record of doing all three.
If under their FBI supervision Apple worked on opening the phone in Apple's labs I could see it. But turn over software created to hack and defeat the iPhone's security? to the FBI? They can't keep track of their own firearms, or personal information, so: no. Plus the FBI leaks like a sieve so with no microphone going unloved you just know they'd brag, with details, on just how this was accomplished. And then other nations would set their teams to follow the road showed them by the FBI.
I'm very disappointed the White House and President Obama would think the American public is naive enough to believe that this would be a "one time" deal. C'mon now, how stupid do you think we are?
Both the GOP and Dems are talking crap on this subject : they are of the same demagogic voice.
Also, they don't realize that if they allow this, this will essentially kill most Apple sales world wide...
There is some huge hellish mound of myopia from all politicians in the US.
I really wish 'conflict of interest' would be reinstated in the US. Yes - and be maintained elsewhere, too.
It's a discrace that Apple must act as a whistle-blower and publicise political bullying. I'd rather see alcoholism and obesity be highlighted: 'we must crack your phone to know who suggested you visit KFC!!'
In any case, I imagine this will only further strengthen Apple as a company. I look forward to Apple's continuing successes.
Maybe Cook will be the US's first gay president
Anti-American with regards to Microsoft?
Apple has a monopoly?
Blaming the dot-com crash on Apple?
Apple denying the government what now?
No brain consumers?
Really?
Really?
If they can do it, then they lied to everyone, and I would hope many iPhone owners will demand a refund. Their stock will plummet and probably wipe them out!