Apple cuts prices on USB-C & Thunderbolt 3 gear in response to MacBook Pro backlash

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Comments

  • Reply 181 of 224
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    How about people put their money where there mouth is and don't buy these machines if they're so terrible. You want Apple to change then stop buying their stuff. That's the only way they get the message.
    You tell people that, but they think still think Jony Ive reads this forum.
    nolamacguy
  • Reply 182 of 224
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member

    wood1208 said:
    Soli said:
    wood1208 said:
    Most important price cut needed is for new 13.3" mackbook pro BASE model. Nw macbook pro has Inferior spec than equivalent windows laptop but asking twice the price.
    Can you show us this Windows laptop that has an equivalent build quality, display color accuracy and brightness, SSD performance, and other components for 1/2 the price?
    Last year I bought HP laptop for my son in college for under $800. This year I needed to upgrade my daughter's 13" 2012 macbook pro but with this price tag, can't pull triger to buy..Will wait till it comes affordable. My kids are college kids like millions out their and they need decent affordable machine not high performance..If Apple don't make as much on their base model, still should offer them at attractive/affordable price point. Apple can ask for more $ for upgrades and that is acceptable to all of us.
    Apple 13.3" MacBook Pro (Silver, Late 2016) - $1,499.00
    2.0 GHz Intel Core I5-6360U Dual-Core
    8GB of 1866 MHz RAM | 256GB PCIe SSD
    13.3" 2560 x 1600 Retina Display
    Integrated Intel Iris Graphics 540
    802.11AC, Bluetooth
    vs
    HP ENVY x360 2-in-1 Touch screen Laptop(sliver, late 2015) - $799.99 - rebate = less than $700
    Product number: L8S90AV
    • 15.6" IPS Full HD(1920x1080) Touchscreen
    • 2.50GHz Intel Core i7-6500U
    • 8GB DDR3L
    • 1TB 5400 rpm Hard Drive
    • NVIDIA GeForce 930M 2GB Discrete Graphics
    • Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [2x2]


    LOL that's not even close. You can't through in some components with certain values and then ignore others as if it doesn't make a difference to the whole. I'm not even looking for the OS, or how that affects the overall performance, just equivalent HW. Hint: When you find it, it's almost always beyond what Apple charges because the vendors that make them sell very few of them so they have higher costs than Apple.
  • Reply 183 of 224
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    avon b7 said:
    flaneur said:
    avon b7 said:
    flaneur said:
    knowitall said:

    zoetmb said:
    slurpy said:
    Aw's move by Apple. This SHOULD shut up most of the complaints, but of course it won't. 
    It's not like Apple is selling $500 laptops.   There's two ways to look at this:  

    The first is that if someone is buying a laptop that starts at $2400, they should't be complaining about having to buy some adapters, even if they're overpriced and that if you're a pro, technology advances and the investment is the price of doing business.  

    The other way to look at it is that if someone is spending between $2400 and $4300 (for the MBP with all options except for application software and AppleCare), Apple shouldn't have cheaped out and they should have provided 2 to 4 adapters in the box of the customer's choosing.   The price of four adapters/cables is as much as a cheap PC.   

    And then my cost of ownership goes up because I can't replace the battery, expand memory or replace the SSD myself.   Or, if I Iive with a 256GB SSD, I've got to get a ton of external storage for pro-level photos and video and live with the hassle of not having every file with me when I'm out of the home/office.  

    This is another example of Apple labeling something "pro" and then not understanding the workflow of their pro customers.   They did that with FinalCutPro and they did it when they moved away from the tower configuration of the MacPro.  

    Every time Apple switches ports, they tell the market how their new choices are the greatest and how they want lboth manufacturers and consumers to commit to that port.  Then after a few years, they change their minds and they move on to something else.   Did they really need to drop Mag-safe?  What about all the people who bought extra power supplies to keep at home/office, etc.?   HDMI is ubiquitous on TVs and receivers and the cables have become inexpensive, but now I've got to buy an adapter that costs ten times what the cable cost?

    What was Apple's rationale for going solely to USB-C?   Was it because they truly think this port is the future and that the accessory market will fully move to that port and that it provides technological advantages?   Or was it really because of Ive's anal-obsessiveness over thinness and not wanting to look at different sized/shaped ports on the side of the machine?   What drives me crazy is that Apple wants the machine to have this superior industrial design so that it looks great in photos and in ads, but they have no problem with users having to stick a bunch of dongles and adapters on the thing.   It's the same with the iPhone and the obsession with thinness, but then we have to put it in a case because it can't survive a fall.   So few are really seeing and feeling the thinness anyway.  Sometimes I think people at Apple don't actually use the products they produce in the real world. 

    So, IMO, criticism is warranted.   If Apple wants my money, they're going to have to do a bit better.   I hate using PCs at work, but I'm not spending $4K to $5K on my next computer and I don't want to feel like I have less than what I have today.  So as much as I hate Windows, my next laptop might actually be a Windows machine.  And I've been an Apple customer for 35 years. 
    Ok, very good comment, especially your remark about Jony Ive, when will he appear on stage?
    I do think that profit maximization (and the hot breath of the shareholder) is getting the better of Apple.
    Its all money money money, and Apple holds their customers at ransom by disabling all upgrade options so they cannot expand the life of the computers and have to dig very deep to get all MBs needed.

    This is why Apple is holding back the ARM; if they expand RAM beyond 4GB (and have enough memory pins on the Ax die to support that) board modders will find a way to connect a TB or so external RAM and iPads and iPhones can be used - or have a second life - as regular computers.
    That was actually a stupid and gross comment he made about Ive. And he should never appear on stage. That's absolutely not his remit, and you should know that.

    You may not agree with his decisions, but you should acknowledge what's behind them. Example: one of the requirements of a portable machine is that it be rugged enough to survive drops and bumps. Upgradability means points of weakness, thus all the adhesive and the hermetic sealing. It's not about new model upsell, or what would be the same thing, planned obsolescence. Why would they make them so durable if that were so?
    Apple's laptops are not rugged enough to survive drops. Believe me on this. If you suffer a drop - start praying. Upgradability has nothing to do with 'points of weakness'. Where on earth did you hear that? If your connections are good... On the contrary, if your laptop doesn't survive the drop, hermetic sealing and glue mean you lose accessibility to get in and locate the problem. Accessibility together with user upgradeable parts, extends the life of the machine both in terms of lifespan and usefulness.
    I didn't hear that, I figured it out. Why does modern manufacturing practice make things more and more sealed and non-user serviceable? Answer: to make them more foolproof. Who are the fools? Answer: the user. 

    I"m not saying that Jony Ive thinks we're fools, by the way, just that as an honest designer, he's resorting to this design for the benefit of the product, and thus the user. I prefer anything I use to be fixable with my own hands and I still rebuild my own VW engines, but I realize that this is not the trend of the wider world. So I let it go and don't carp about my wife's Toyota. And I don't blame Apple if my phone breaks if I drop it, either. I know they tried. 
    Glue is used to shave mm off the thinness of the machine. Making them inaccessible only serves Apple, not the user. If you want better specs they have to be installed at the factory. You have to buy the components from Apple at their inflated prices and at the time of order. Component stock is now down to less than six years (it used to be ten years). The thermal design of all MacBooks is questionable. The thermal design of the iMac actually reduces it's lifespan.

    Jony Ive's design is NOT for the benefit of the machine and far less the user. He has an obsession with certain things, thinness being one of them. His designs are for him. iOS and Mac OSX have awful interfaces and experts in the field rightly point the finger at Apple for not implementing their own guidelines. We are not asking for everyone to be able to fix their own machines. We are asking for easy access to battery, RAM and SSD and for those elements to be user upgradable.
    I forgot that glue is part of the thermal design, maybe the main reason for using it, moreso than durability. 

    Ive is obsessed with integrity of the design, not thinness per se. Not wasting material, saving on bulk and weight, simplicity, tactile edges, all can result in thinness, which comes as a reward. He's amazed and delighted, and so am I and many others, to see the computer pared down to a pane of aluminum-edged glass poised in the air over a desk or table, or pared down to something you can slip into a case for travel using your thumb and three fingers.

    It's right-brain Zen, not left-brain metrics. Left-brain tinkerers will have a hard time getting any of this. That's what I mean when I say there are two cultures arguing over these new MacBooks. One is tactile, one is left-brained visual. Apple never did design for the latter group during either of Jobs's two tenures.


    lorin schultz
  • Reply 184 of 224
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    avon b7 said:
    flaneur said:
    avon b7 said:
    flaneur said:
    knowitall said:

    zoetmb said:
    slurpy said:
    Aw's move by Apple. This SHOULD shut up most of the complaints, but of course it won't. 
    It's not like Apple is selling $500 laptops.   There's two ways to look at this:  

    The first is that if someone is buying a laptop that starts at $2400, they should't be complaining about having to buy some adapters, even if they're overpriced and that if you're a pro, technology advances and the investment is the price of doing business.  

    The other way to look at it is that if someone is spending between $2400 and $4300 (for the MBP with all options except for application software and AppleCare), Apple shouldn't have cheaped out and they should have provided 2 to 4 adapters in the box of the customer's choosing.   The price of four adapters/cables is as much as a cheap PC.   

    And then my cost of ownership goes up because I can't replace the battery, expand memory or replace the SSD myself.   Or, if I Iive with a 256GB SSD, I've got to get a ton of external storage for pro-level photos and video and live with the hassle of not having every file with me when I'm out of the home/office.  

    This is another example of Apple labeling something "pro" and then not understanding the workflow of their pro customers.   They did that with FinalCutPro and they did it when they moved away from the tower configuration of the MacPro.  

    Every time Apple switches ports, they tell the market how their new choices are the greatest and how they want lboth manufacturers and consumers to commit to that port.  Then after a few years, they change their minds and they move on to something else.   Did they really need to drop Mag-safe?  What about all the people who bought extra power supplies to keep at home/office, etc.?   HDMI is ubiquitous on TVs and receivers and the cables have become inexpensive, but now I've got to buy an adapter that costs ten times what the cable cost?

    What was Apple's rationale for going solely to USB-C?   Was it because they truly think this port is the future and that the accessory market will fully move to that port and that it provides technological advantages?   Or was it really because of Ive's anal-obsessiveness over thinness and not wanting to look at different sized/shaped ports on the side of the machine?   What drives me crazy is that Apple wants the machine to have this superior industrial design so that it looks great in photos and in ads, but they have no problem with users having to stick a bunch of dongles and adapters on the thing.   It's the same with the iPhone and the obsession with thinness, but then we have to put it in a case because it can't survive a fall.   So few are really seeing and feeling the thinness anyway.  Sometimes I think people at Apple don't actually use the products they produce in the real world. 

    So, IMO, criticism is warranted.   If Apple wants my money, they're going to have to do a bit better.   I hate using PCs at work, but I'm not spending $4K to $5K on my next computer and I don't want to feel like I have less than what I have today.  So as much as I hate Windows, my next laptop might actually be a Windows machine.  And I've been an Apple customer for 35 years. 
    Ok, very good comment, especially your remark about Jony Ive, when will he appear on stage?
    I do think that profit maximization (and the hot breath of the shareholder) is getting the better of Apple.
    Its all money money money, and Apple holds their customers at ransom by disabling all upgrade options so they cannot expand the life of the computers and have to dig very deep to get all MBs needed.

    This is why Apple is holding back the ARM; if they expand RAM beyond 4GB (and have enough memory pins on the Ax die to support that) board modders will find a way to connect a TB or so external RAM and iPads and iPhones can be used - or have a second life - as regular computers.
    That was actually a stupid and gross comment he made about Ive. And he should never appear on stage. That's absolutely not his remit, and you should know that.

    You may not agree with his decisions, but you should acknowledge what's behind them. Example: one of the requirements of a portable machine is that it be rugged enough to survive drops and bumps. Upgradability means points of weakness, thus all the adhesive and the hermetic sealing. It's not about new model upsell, or what would be the same thing, planned obsolescence. Why would they make them so durable if that were so?
    Apple's laptops are not rugged enough to survive drops. Believe me on this. If you suffer a drop - start praying. Upgradability has nothing to do with 'points of weakness'. Where on earth did you hear that? If your connections are good... On the contrary, if your laptop doesn't survive the drop, hermetic sealing and glue mean you lose accessibility to get in and locate the problem. Accessibility together with user upgradeable parts, extends the life of the machine both in terms of lifespan and usefulness.
    I didn't hear that, I figured it out. Why does modern manufacturing practice make things more and more sealed and non-user serviceable? Answer: to make them more foolproof. Who are the fools? Answer: the user. 

    I"m not saying that Jony Ive thinks we're fools, by the way, just that as an honest designer, he's resorting to this design for the benefit of the product, and thus the user. I prefer anything I use to be fixable with my own hands and I still rebuild my own VW engines, but I realize that this is not the trend of the wider world. So I let it go and don't carp about my wife's Toyota. And I don't blame Apple if my phone breaks if I drop it, either. I know they tried. 
    Glue is used to shave mm off the thinness of the machine. Making them inaccessible only serves Apple, not the user. 
    ERRRNT! incorrect. inaccessibility is a side-effect of the actual benefit to the user -- thinness & lightness. I'm a software developer and i can lug my notebook to a client side, an airport, or a cafe. a heavier machine is more of a burden than a lighter machine. i certainly appreciate lightness. if that means i cant later upgrade the RAM, so be it -- no big whoop. as a pro I've already selected the amount of RAM i needed from Day 1, and give it zero thoughts afterward. but weight? thats something that continues to affect me every time i travel outside my office.

    that is why these devices have built-in memory, storage, glue, etc -- because using off-the-shelf components and still achieving these value-giving form factors is impossible. see iPad. are you complaining about user accessibility on your iPad? nope. your iPhone? nope. your iPod? nope. your DVD player? nope. home receiver? nope. getting the point? appliance computing. 

    if you dont like appliance computing apple is not the brand for you. 
    edited November 2016 polymnia
  • Reply 185 of 224
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,700member
    avon b7 said:
    How about people put their money where there mouth is and don't buy these machines if they're so terrible. You want Apple to change then stop buying their stuff. That's the only way they get the message.
    I agree. That's what I'm doing and have been doing since June. I have no desire to move to Windows and have a lot of software that I'd have to get over to the platform but I'm never going to get one of these new machines at current prices and will not buy old hardware at current prices either. With hindsight, it's clear that the Mac just isn't that important to Apple any more. If it were we wouldn't being going into Christmas with so much of the Mac line stale and expensive.
    "With hindsight, it's clear that the Mac just isn't that important to Apple any more"

    There is a place for the Mac in Apple's lineup.  For a different perspective, I suggest reading the following article and listening to the podcast. They go hand-in-hand.

    http://www.aboveavalon.com/notes/2016/11/4/apple-is-placing-a-big-bet-with-the-new-macbook-pro

    http://www.aboveavalon.com/podcast/2016/11/4/above-avalon-episode-80-lets-talk-the-new-macbook-pro

    Whether you agree / disagree is entirely up to you but it's worth the read / listen. 
    edited November 2016
  • Reply 186 of 224
    Soli said:

    wood1208 said:
    Soli said:
    wood1208 said:
    Most important price cut needed is for new 13.3" mackbook pro BASE model. Nw macbook pro has Inferior spec than equivalent windows laptop but asking twice the price.
    Can you show us this Windows laptop that has an equivalent build quality, display color accuracy and brightness, SSD performance, and other components for 1/2 the price?
    Last year I bought HP laptop for my son in college for under $800. This year I needed to upgrade my daughter's 13" 2012 macbook pro but with this price tag, can't pull triger to buy..Will wait till it comes affordable. My kids are college kids like millions out their and they need decent affordable machine not high performance..If Apple don't make as much on their base model, still should offer them at attractive/affordable price point. Apple can ask for more $ for upgrades and that is acceptable to all of us.
    Apple 13.3" MacBook Pro (Silver, Late 2016) - $1,499.00
    2.0 GHz Intel Core I5-6360U Dual-Core
    8GB of 1866 MHz RAM | 256GB PCIe SSD
    13.3" 2560 x 1600 Retina Display
    Integrated Intel Iris Graphics 540
    802.11AC, Bluetooth
    vs
    HP ENVY x360 2-in-1 Touch screen Laptop(sliver, late 2015) - $799.99 - rebate = less than $700
    Product number: L8S90AV
    • 15.6" IPS Full HD(1920x1080) Touchscreen
    • 2.50GHz Intel Core i7-6500U
    • 8GB DDR3L
    • 1TB 5400 rpm Hard Drive
    • NVIDIA GeForce 930M 2GB Discrete Graphics
    • Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [2x2]


    LOL that's not even close. You can't through in some components with certain values and then ignore others as if it doesn't make a difference to the whole. I'm not even looking for the OS, or how that affects the overall performance, just equivalent HW. Hint: When you find it, it's almost always beyond what Apple charges because the vendors that make them sell very few of them so they have higher costs than Apple.
    I've actually found that they're usually less expensive, but not by enough to warrant a platform switch. A couple years ago we looked at alternative laptops. If I remember correctly the Mac was around $3000 and a comparable Asus (with less attention to heat and noise but better graphics card) was around $2800.

    in the case of towers for Avid, the Mac Pro and HP workstation were further apart (I don't remember the numbers, it was more than $500 but less than $1000 on a purchase of around $10,000), but the HP lacked Thunderbolt (which we could live without since the HP had slots).

    So, the alternatives WERE less expensive, but not by enough for price to really be a serious consideration.
    baconstang
  • Reply 187 of 224
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    Soli said:

    wood1208 said:
    Soli said:
    wood1208 said:
    Most important price cut needed is for new 13.3" mackbook pro BASE model. Nw macbook pro has Inferior spec than equivalent windows laptop but asking twice the price.
    Can you show us this Windows laptop that has an equivalent build quality, display color accuracy and brightness, SSD performance, and other components for 1/2 the price?
    Last year I bought HP laptop for my son in college for under $800. This year I needed to upgrade my daughter's 13" 2012 macbook pro but with this price tag, can't pull triger to buy..Will wait till it comes affordable. My kids are college kids like millions out their and they need decent affordable machine not high performance..If Apple don't make as much on their base model, still should offer them at attractive/affordable price point. Apple can ask for more $ for upgrades and that is acceptable to all of us.
    Apple 13.3" MacBook Pro (Silver, Late 2016) - $1,499.00
    2.0 GHz Intel Core I5-6360U Dual-Core
    8GB of 1866 MHz RAM | 256GB PCIe SSD
    13.3" 2560 x 1600 Retina Display
    Integrated Intel Iris Graphics 540
    802.11AC, Bluetooth
    vs
    HP ENVY x360 2-in-1 Touch screen Laptop(sliver, late 2015) - $799.99 - rebate = less than $700
    Product number: L8S90AV
    • 15.6" IPS Full HD(1920x1080) Touchscreen
    • 2.50GHz Intel Core i7-6500U
    • 8GB DDR3L
    • 1TB 5400 rpm Hard Drive
    • NVIDIA GeForce 930M 2GB Discrete Graphics
    • Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [2x2]


    LOL that's not even close. You can't through in some components with certain values and then ignore others as if it doesn't make a difference to the whole. I'm not even looking for the OS, or how that affects the overall performance, just equivalent HW. Hint: When you find it, it's almost always beyond what Apple charges because the vendors that make them sell very few of them so they have higher costs than Apple.
    I've actually found that they're usually less expensive, but not by enough to warrant a platform switch. A couple years ago we looked at alternative laptops. If I remember correctly the Mac was around $3000 and a comparable Asus (with less attention to heat and noise but better graphics card) was around $2800.

    in the case of towers for Avid, the Mac Pro and HP workstation were further apart (I don't remember the numbers, it was more than $500 but less than $1000 on a purchase of around $10,000), but the HP lacked Thunderbolt (which we could live without since the HP had slots).

    So, the alternatives WERE less expensive, but not by enough for price to really be a serious consideration.
    Asus* usually comes the closest in terms of build quality and great battery fee for a fair price, but when you factor in the things that require more than a notecard-sized comparison of specs, Macs are lower than comparable products from other OEMs. Remember how much HP charged for their Elite laptops with an IPS display?


    * Not Acer.
    edited November 2016
  • Reply 188 of 224
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,691member
    avon b7 said:
    flaneur said:
    avon b7 said:
    flaneur said:
    knowitall said:

    zoetmb said:
    slurpy said:
    Aw's move by Apple. This SHOULD shut up most of the complaints, but of course it won't. 
    It's not like Apple is selling $500 laptops.   There's two ways to look at this:  

    The first is that if someone is buying a laptop that starts at $2400, they should't be complaining about having to buy some adapters, even if they're overpriced and that if you're a pro, technology advances and the investment is the price of doing business.  

    The other way to look at it is that if someone is spending between $2400 and $4300 (for the MBP with all options except for application software and AppleCare), Apple shouldn't have cheaped out and they should have provided 2 to 4 adapters in the box of the customer's choosing.   The price of four adapters/cables is as much as a cheap PC.   

    And then my cost of ownership goes up because I can't replace the battery, expand memory or replace the SSD myself.   Or, if I Iive with a 256GB SSD, I've got to get a ton of external storage for pro-level photos and video and live with the hassle of not having every file with me when I'm out of the home/office.  

    This is another example of Apple labeling something "pro" and then not understanding the workflow of their pro customers.   They did that with FinalCutPro and they did it when they moved away from the tower configuration of the MacPro.  

    Every time Apple switches ports, they tell the market how their new choices are the greatest and how they want lboth manufacturers and consumers to commit to that port.  Then after a few years, they change their minds and they move on to something else.   Did they really need to drop Mag-safe?  What about all the people who bought extra power supplies to keep at home/office, etc.?   HDMI is ubiquitous on TVs and receivers and the cables have become inexpensive, but now I've got to buy an adapter that costs ten times what the cable cost?

    What was Apple's rationale for going solely to USB-C?   Was it because they truly think this port is the future and that the accessory market will fully move to that port and that it provides technological advantages?   Or was it really because of Ive's anal-obsessiveness over thinness and not wanting to look at different sized/shaped ports on the side of the machine?   What drives me crazy is that Apple wants the machine to have this superior industrial design so that it looks great in photos and in ads, but they have no problem with users having to stick a bunch of dongles and adapters on the thing.   It's the same with the iPhone and the obsession with thinness, but then we have to put it in a case because it can't survive a fall.   So few are really seeing and feeling the thinness anyway.  Sometimes I think people at Apple don't actually use the products they produce in the real world. 

    So, IMO, criticism is warranted.   If Apple wants my money, they're going to have to do a bit better.   I hate using PCs at work, but I'm not spending $4K to $5K on my next computer and I don't want to feel like I have less than what I have today.  So as much as I hate Windows, my next laptop might actually be a Windows machine.  And I've been an Apple customer for 35 years. 
    Ok, very good comment, especially your remark about Jony Ive, when will he appear on stage?
    I do think that profit maximization (and the hot breath of the shareholder) is getting the better of Apple.
    Its all money money money, and Apple holds their customers at ransom by disabling all upgrade options so they cannot expand the life of the computers and have to dig very deep to get all MBs needed.

    This is why Apple is holding back the ARM; if they expand RAM beyond 4GB (and have enough memory pins on the Ax die to support that) board modders will find a way to connect a TB or so external RAM and iPads and iPhones can be used - or have a second life - as regular computers.
    That was actually a stupid and gross comment he made about Ive. And he should never appear on stage. That's absolutely not his remit, and you should know that.

    You may not agree with his decisions, but you should acknowledge what's behind them. Example: one of the requirements of a portable machine is that it be rugged enough to survive drops and bumps. Upgradability means points of weakness, thus all the adhesive and the hermetic sealing. It's not about new model upsell, or what would be the same thing, planned obsolescence. Why would they make them so durable if that were so?
    Apple's laptops are not rugged enough to survive drops. Believe me on this. If you suffer a drop - start praying. Upgradability has nothing to do with 'points of weakness'. Where on earth did you hear that? If your connections are good... On the contrary, if your laptop doesn't survive the drop, hermetic sealing and glue mean you lose accessibility to get in and locate the problem. Accessibility together with user upgradeable parts, extends the life of the machine both in terms of lifespan and usefulness.
    I didn't hear that, I figured it out. Why does modern manufacturing practice make things more and more sealed and non-user serviceable? Answer: to make them more foolproof. Who are the fools? Answer: the user. 

    I"m not saying that Jony Ive thinks we're fools, by the way, just that as an honest designer, he's resorting to this design for the benefit of the product, and thus the user. I prefer anything I use to be fixable with my own hands and I still rebuild my own VW engines, but I realize that this is not the trend of the wider world. So I let it go and don't carp about my wife's Toyota. And I don't blame Apple if my phone breaks if I drop it, either. I know they tried. 
    Glue is used to shave mm off the thinness of the machine. Making them inaccessible only serves Apple, not the user. 
    ERRRNT! incorrect. inaccessibility is a side-effect of the actual benefit to the user -- thinness & lightness. I'm a software developer and i can lug my notebook to a client side, an airport, or a cafe. a heavier machine is more of a burden than a lighter machine. i certainly appreciate lightness. if that means i cant later upgrade the RAM, so be it -- no big whoop. as a pro I've already selected the amount of RAM i needed from Day 1, and give it zero thoughts afterward. but weight? thats something that continues to affect me every time i travel outside my office.

    that is why these devices have built-in memory, storage, glue, etc -- because using off-the-shelf components and still achieving these value-giving form factors is impossible. see iPad. are you complaining about user accessibility on your iPad? nope. your iPhone? nope. your iPod? nope. your DVD player? nope. home receiver? nope. getting the point? appliance computing. 

    if you dont like appliance computing apple is not the brand for you. 
    As I said, but you ignored, when thinness leads to compromises it isn't innovation. In this case it isn't a benefit because things had to be sacrificed to get there. I have complained about sealed in batteries since they came into use. The only access I want to my iPad is that. I already have access to my DVD player (which has a hard drive in it) and my receiver. Neither of them use glue by the way. Being a few millimetres thinner than they were gives me no added value. None. They were thin enough. We lost value on the form factor by having to use dongles!!
  • Reply 189 of 224
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    flaneur said:
    avon b7 said:
    flaneur said:
    knowitall said:

    zoetmb said:
    slurpy said:
    Aw's move by Apple. This SHOULD shut up most of the complaints, but of course it won't. 
    It's not like Apple is selling $500 laptops.   There's two ways to look at this:  

    The first is that if someone is buying a laptop that starts at $2400, they should't be complaining about having to buy some adapters, even if they're overpriced and that if you're a pro, technology advances and the investment is the price of doing business.  

    The other way to look at it is that if someone is spending between $2400 and $4300 (for the MBP with all options except for application software and AppleCare), Apple shouldn't have cheaped out and they should have provided 2 to 4 adapters in the box of the customer's choosing.   The price of four adapters/cables is as much as a cheap PC.   

    And then my cost of ownership goes up because I can't replace the battery, expand memory or replace the SSD myself.   Or, if I Iive with a 256GB SSD, I've got to get a ton of external storage for pro-level photos and video and live with the hassle of not having every file with me when I'm out of the home/office.  

    This is another example of Apple labeling something "pro" and then not understanding the workflow of their pro customers.   They did that with FinalCutPro and they did it when they moved away from the tower configuration of the MacPro.  

    Every time Apple switches ports, they tell the market how their new choices are the greatest and how they want lboth manufacturers and consumers to commit to that port.  Then after a few years, they change their minds and they move on to something else.   Did they really need to drop Mag-safe?  What about all the people who bought extra power supplies to keep at home/office, etc.?   HDMI is ubiquitous on TVs and receivers and the cables have become inexpensive, but now I've got to buy an adapter that costs ten times what the cable cost?

    What was Apple's rationale for going solely to USB-C?   Was it because they truly think this port is the future and that the accessory market will fully move to that port and that it provides technological advantages?   Or was it really because of Ive's anal-obsessiveness over thinness and not wanting to look at different sized/shaped ports on the side of the machine?   What drives me crazy is that Apple wants the machine to have this superior industrial design so that it looks great in photos and in ads, but they have no problem with users having to stick a bunch of dongles and adapters on the thing.   It's the same with the iPhone and the obsession with thinness, but then we have to put it in a case because it can't survive a fall.   So few are really seeing and feeling the thinness anyway.  Sometimes I think people at Apple don't actually use the products they produce in the real world. 

    So, IMO, criticism is warranted.   If Apple wants my money, they're going to have to do a bit better.   I hate using PCs at work, but I'm not spending $4K to $5K on my next computer and I don't want to feel like I have less than what I have today.  So as much as I hate Windows, my next laptop might actually be a Windows machine.  And I've been an Apple customer for 35 years. 
    Ok, very good comment, especially your remark about Jony Ive, when will he appear on stage?
    I do think that profit maximization (and the hot breath of the shareholder) is getting the better of Apple.
    Its all money money money, and Apple holds their customers at ransom by disabling all upgrade options so they cannot expand the life of the computers and have to dig very deep to get all MBs needed.

    This is why Apple is holding back the ARM; if they expand RAM beyond 4GB (and have enough memory pins on the Ax die to support that) board modders will find a way to connect a TB or so external RAM and iPads and iPhones can be used - or have a second life - as regular computers.
    That was actually a stupid and gross comment he made about Ive. And he should never appear on stage. That's absolutely not his remit, and you should know that.

    You may not agree with his decisions, but you should acknowledge what's behind them. Example: one of the requirements of a portable machine is that it be rugged enough to survive drops and bumps. Upgradability means points of weakness, thus all the adhesive and the hermetic sealing. It's not about new model upsell, or what would be the same thing, planned obsolescence. Why would they make them so durable if that were so?
    Apple's laptops are not rugged enough to survive drops. Believe me on this. If you suffer a drop - start praying. Upgradability has nothing to do with 'points of weakness'. Where on earth did you hear that? If your connections are good... On the contrary, if your laptop doesn't survive the drop, hermetic sealing and glue mean you lose accessibility to get in and locate the problem. Accessibility together with user upgradeable parts, extends the life of the machine both in terms of lifespan and usefulness.
    I didn't hear that, I figured it out. Why does modern manufacturing practice make things more and more sealed and non-user serviceable? Answer: to make them more foolproof. Who are the fools? Answer: the user. 

    I"m not saying that Jony Ive thinks we're fools, by the way, just that as an honest designer, he's resorting to this design for the benefit of the product, and thus the user. I prefer anything I use to be fixable with my own hands and I still rebuild my own VW engines, but I realize that this is not the trend of the wider world. So I let it go and don't carp about my wife's Toyota. And I don't blame Apple if my phone breaks if I drop it, either. I know they tried. 
    Glue is used to shave mm off the thinness of the machine. Making them inaccessible only serves Apple, not the user. 
    ERRRNT! incorrect. inaccessibility is a side-effect of the actual benefit to the user -- thinness & lightness. I'm a software developer and i can lug my notebook to a client side, an airport, or a cafe. a heavier machine is more of a burden than a lighter machine. i certainly appreciate lightness. if that means i cant later upgrade the RAM, so be it -- no big whoop. as a pro I've already selected the amount of RAM i needed from Day 1, and give it zero thoughts afterward. but weight? thats something that continues to affect me every time i travel outside my office.

    that is why these devices have built-in memory, storage, glue, etc -- because using off-the-shelf components and still achieving these value-giving form factors is impossible. see iPad. are you complaining about user accessibility on your iPad? nope. your iPhone? nope. your iPod? nope. your DVD player? nope. home receiver? nope. getting the point? appliance computing. 

    if you dont like appliance computing apple is not the brand for you. 
    As I said, but you ignored, when thinness leads to compromises it isn't innovation. In this case it isn't a benefit because things had to be sacrificed to get there. I have complained about sealed in batteries since they came into use. The only access I want to my iPad is that. I already have access to my DVD player (which has a hard drive in it) and my receiver. Neither of them use glue by the way. Being a few millimetres thinner than they were gives me no added value. None. They were thin enough. We lost value on the form factor by having to use dongles!!
    no, you've ignored the point. inaccessibility isn't the feature -- it's the side effect. even thinness isn't the feature, it's a side effect. reduction of weight & mass is the feature. the tool gets smaller and smaller, and that's a true value add in a portable (keyword: portable).

    nobody in their right mind is going to upgrade the HD in their DVD player (am I reading that right? your disc player has a HD that you have or plan on upgrading? riiiight). nobody in their right mind complains about not being able to upgrade anything or swap out the battery in their iPad Air. nobody. a random DIY tinkerer is not a valid use case, by any stretch. certainly no pro user like myself is going to fuck around changing batteries on an iPad -- it's an appliance, and it works until it doesn't. and ill know it with enough time to make decision long before it stops me from earning with the tool.

    "we" did not lose value on the form factor because adapters. this should be obvious but here you go -- who is "we"? are my needs the same as yours? apparently not. I'm a software developer -- WTF do i need a consumer grade SD memory card reader built into my dev machine for!? I've never EVER used this, on ANY of my MBPs. total waste of space. likewise for other ports -- i dont need that shit, so to me ditching them is a pro, not a con. meanwhile, *if* you do (and id bet most dont), all you gotta do is plug the damn thing into the side of your machine and have at it. thus the burden of that compromise resides with you, the guy who needs it, and not i, the guy who does not.

    it's simple. thats how apple thinks. if you dont, you arent in alignment with their product offering and will never be happy. seek relief elsewhere.

    edited November 2016 Soli
  • Reply 190 of 224
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    MacRumors forum member, in the first comment after the announcement of new MacBook Pros:
    Well, I’m sure I’ll be attacked for this, but I’m gonna say it anyway:

    Tiny harddrive, barely enough RAM (and not upgradable to the “enough” level), no dedicated graphics, only dual-core processors. It certainly isn’t bad, but Apple just took the “pro” out of the 13-inch line. And come on - it’s freaking expensive. […]

    The 13” is NOT a pro device in my opinion. It’s more like a beefed-up and slightly heavier MacBook Air. For that, it just costs way too much.
  • Reply 191 of 224
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,691member
    avon b7 said:
    How about people put their money where there mouth is and don't buy these machines if they're so terrible. You want Apple to change then stop buying their stuff. That's the only way they get the message.
    I agree. That's what I'm doing and have been doing since June. I have no desire to move to Windows and have a lot of software that I'd have to get over to the platform but I'm never going to get one of these new machines at current prices and will not buy old hardware at current prices either. With hindsight, it's clear that the Mac just isn't that important to Apple any more. If it were we wouldn't being going into Christmas with so much of the Mac line stale and expensive.
    "With hindsight, it's clear that the Mac just isn't that important to Apple any more"

    There is a place for the Mac in Apple's lineup.  For a different perspective, I suggest reading the following article and listening to the podcast. They go hand-in-hand.

    http://www.aboveavalon.com/notes/2016/11/4/apple-is-placing-a-big-bet-with-the-new-macbook-pro

    http://www.aboveavalon.com/podcast/2016/11/4/above-avalon-episode-80-lets-talk-the-new-macbook-pro

    Whether you agree / disagree is entirely up to you but it's worth the read / listen. 
    Thank you for the links. I read the article but think it is severely flawed:

    'Combining The Grand Unified Theory of Apple Products with the Apple Innovation Feedback Loop produces the diagram below'

    That is just some wild theory packaged up as 'Apple's bet'. What struck me was that at no point was the user included in the grand scheme of things as a potential source of ideas for the future.

    Different products resolve different problems but the solutions to those problems sometime overlap.  You can email on most of Apple's products but that doesn't necessarily make the Mac or an iDevice better for the task. If you're away from your Mac an iPad or iPhone would be a suitable better. You can manage photos too from many devices. However, a 27" iMac will always be better than an iPhone for photo management so most people would wait until they get home for that task. Each device was designed to serve certain needs and while functionality may be passed down from more powerful devices it doesn't make those devices doing the passing down any less necessary because they still do things the others can't. It doesn't make the devices that receive that functionality any more necessary either. It is the user who has to decide which device is needed. Your grandmother may well get by with a tablet for basic email, photos, browsing etc even though she hardly ever takes it out of the flat with her. In the past you would have needed a computer for that and that is one of the reasons why computer sales aren't what they once were. On the other hand, tablet sales have been what they are, in part, because they are much cheaper than computers. The computer used to be the hub (digital or not) of everything. Now the cloud can also serve that function. We now have far more flexibility than before but that has brought complexity to the user. Apple has largely failed to make iCloud a safe place for users to store their documents. It has failed to make synchronisation bulletproof. Every update to iTunes causes some kind of problem with user libraries. iTunes is a monster. The installed Mac base is probably higher today than at any other point in time but we are supposed to be in the post pc era. That doesn't mean PCs are suddenly becoming extinct. Not at all. It just means that other devices are capable of carrying out some PC tasks. Grandma can get by without one but the vast majority of computer users still need a computer and they require a computer that caters to their needs. If you were to ask the vast majority they would not tell you that 'thinness' was a priority. They would tell you they prefer user Upgradability. They would tell you pricing was a key concern. They would tell you that being able to plug their existing devices in without dongles was important. They would tell you that a fingerprint sensor was not innovation as it was just transferred from another device. Thinness is not innovation. Moving lock stock and barrel to USB-C is not innovation. The touch bar has yet to demonstrate it's usability. If we follow the line that Apple took a bet we might be on the verge of seeing them lose it. If they manage to sell these MBPs in sufficient numbers they could at least brag about that but it would be foolish to brag too much. A lot of people are disappointed by these machines. If they have new iMacs waiting in the wings that also have high prices and only USB-C things may well get a little worse unless they put the dongles in the box and make them true desktop machines.
    baconstang
  • Reply 192 of 224
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    ^^^ The view from the PC nerd retirement home. ". . . the vast majority . . . would tell you they prefer user Upgradability."

    I think you have outlived your relevance here if you believe that laptops from Apple are going to return to user upgradability. 

    Thinness matters to people in ways that you are clearly immune to sensing. It IS a matter of the senses. It kicks in when you go to the store and you feel the thing in your hands, or when you see one in your friend's hands and it's passed to you. That's when the sale happens, and it will be happening in enough millions that Apple will win their bet on the future. 
    Soli
  • Reply 193 of 224
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    avon b7, your arguments sound like every other complaint from every generation of PC innovations. I mean EVERY. When going to the GUI/mouse from command line, to going to a notebook from a BYO tower desktop, you sound like everyone that claimed it was the wrong direction because professionals do this and need that. You're certainly not a good MacBook Pro-gnasticator, but perhaps you can look back at the history of computing and see how your same arguments have been repeatedly disproven as professionals have continually stepped into the SW and HW people like you called worthless, overpriced toys.
    edited November 2016
  • Reply 194 of 224
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,700member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    How about people put their money where there mouth is and don't buy these machines if they're so terrible. You want Apple to change then stop buying their stuff. That's the only way they get the message.
    I agree. That's what I'm doing and have been doing since June. I have no desire to move to Windows and have a lot of software that I'd have to get over to the platform but I'm never going to get one of these new machines at current prices and will not buy old hardware at current prices either. With hindsight, it's clear that the Mac just isn't that important to Apple any more. If it were we wouldn't being going into Christmas with so much of the Mac line stale and expensive.
    "With hindsight, it's clear that the Mac just isn't that important to Apple any more"

    There is a place for the Mac in Apple's lineup.  For a different perspective, I suggest reading the following article and listening to the podcast. They go hand-in-hand.

    http://www.aboveavalon.com/notes/2016/11/4/apple-is-placing-a-big-bet-with-the-new-macbook-pro

    http://www.aboveavalon.com/podcast/2016/11/4/above-avalon-episode-80-lets-talk-the-new-macbook-pro

    Whether you agree / disagree is entirely up to you but it's worth the read / listen. 
    Thank you for the links. I read the article but think it is severely flawed:

    'Combining The Grand Unified Theory of Apple Products with the Apple Innovation Feedback Loop produces the diagram below'

    That is just some wild theory packaged up as 'Apple's bet'. What struck me was that at no point was the user included in the grand scheme of things as a potential source of ideas for the future.

    Different products resolve different problems but the solutions to those problems sometime overlap.  You can email on most of Apple's products but that doesn't necessarily make the Mac or an iDevice better for the task. If you're away from your Mac an iPad or iPhone would be a suitable better. You can manage photos too from many devices. However, a 27" iMac will always be better than an iPhone for photo management so most people would wait until they get home for that task. Each device was designed to serve certain needs and while functionality may be passed down from more powerful devices it doesn't make those devices doing the passing down any less necessary because they still do things the others can't. It doesn't make the devices that receive that functionality any more necessary either. It is the user who has to decide which device is needed. Your grandmother may well get by with a tablet for basic email, photos, browsing etc even though she hardly ever takes it out of the flat with her. In the past you would have needed a computer for that and that is one of the reasons why computer sales aren't what they once were. On the other hand, tablet sales have been what they are, in part, because they are much cheaper than computers. The computer used to be the hub (digital or not) of everything. Now the cloud can also serve that function. We now have far more flexibility than before but that has brought complexity to the user. Apple has largely failed to make iCloud a safe place for users to store their documents. It has failed to make synchronisation bulletproof. Every update to iTunes causes some kind of problem with user libraries. iTunes is a monster. The installed Mac base is probably higher today than at any other point in time but we are supposed to be in the post pc era. That doesn't mean PCs are suddenly becoming extinct. Not at all. It just means that other devices are capable of carrying out some PC tasks. Grandma can get by without one but the vast majority of computer users still need a computer and they require a computer that caters to their needs. If you were to ask the vast majority they would not tell you that 'thinness' was a priority. They would tell you they prefer user Upgradability. They would tell you pricing was a key concern. They would tell you that being able to plug their existing devices in without dongles was important. They would tell you that a fingerprint sensor was not innovation as it was just transferred from another device. Thinness is not innovation. Moving lock stock and barrel to USB-C is not innovation. The touch bar has yet to demonstrate it's usability. If we follow the line that Apple took a bet we might be on the verge of seeing them lose it. If they manage to sell these MBPs in sufficient numbers they could at least brag about that but it would be foolish to brag too much. A lot of people are disappointed by these machines. If they have new iMacs waiting in the wings that also have high prices and only USB-C things may well get a little worse unless they put the dongles in the box and make them true desktop machines.
    "The installed Mac base is probably higher today than at any other point in time but we are supposed to be in the post pc era."

    The Post PC era boils down to two things: 1) The Cloud, and not the PC, becomes the hub of your digital (as you've correctly mentioned and Steve Jobs mentioned when he introduced iCloud in 2011). 2) The majority of computing tasks will happen on mobile devices, not PCs. The poster child for the Post Pc era is the smartphone. For the vast majority of mainstream users, a large-screen smartphone is all they need. As a matter of fact, this year mobile internet usage has surpassed PC internet usage.




    "
    If you were to ask the vast majority they would not tell you that 'thinness' was a priority. They would tell you they prefer user Upgradability."

    If you're talking laptops, I would say the top requested features are battery life and portability (IOW, weight). This is what Apple has optimized for. If they can get in a hardcore GPU and 64GB RAM capacity within their battery life / weight constraints, they will. They have been doing this the last few years with their laptop line-up and all of their mobile devices actually. User upgrade-ability is dead in the Macbook / iMac lineup. That ship has sailed and is not returning. 
    And whether you agree or disagree with is entirely up to you.

    As far as dongles go, in a transition, that's just been par for the course

    https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/84734/dongleworld-weve-always-lived-dongleworld

    Soli
  • Reply 195 of 224
    jdwjdw Posts: 1,338member
    Apple doesn't decide to....
    I don't necessarily disagree with you, but how, exactly, do you know that being outside Apple?

    Right now all we have is an echo chamber of a vocal minority that haven't used these machines for 5 seconds (also we have no reviews have come out) yet already threw them in the trash.
    Incorrect.  If you watch the first video I linked in one of my previous posts (the one more than 1 hour long and also has a Part II), we have a guy who has his hands on an actual machine and even records the audio of the new keyboard and compares the sound level to an older MBP and compares it to Windows keyboard too.  The Windows and older MBP sound the same (almost inaudible).  The new MBP keyboard sounds much louder in comparison.  Watch the video for yourself.  Furthermore, Jason Snell at 6 Colors has been doing his own hands-on with the MBP too and has shared his thoughts there.  So while there may not be any reviews of TouchBar models yet, to some of us disgruntled over missing ports, the lack of those reviews really don't matter.  The existing reviews say most of what we need to know.

    You also overlook at the negative media attention these new machines have garnered.  That is in no way a "vocal minority."  If anything, the vocal minority in the media are organizations who have nothing but praise for the new MBPs.

    Go hackintosh, go Windows or keep what you have and don't buy anything new. If Mac sales see a big drop Apple will get the message. But my guess is Apple is catering to the 80/90% with these machines and sales will be good. And early next year we'll see updates to the rest of the Mac line that will have hard core pro users in mind.
    Any intelligent Mac user among us knows full well that no other die-hard Mac user ever seriously considers Windows.  And most of use don't consider hackintoshes either.  And for those who do consider hackintoshes, consider well that they are desktops.  There are numerous issues to overcome in getting Windows notebooks to be a hackintosh.

    If Mac sales see a big drop Apple will get the message. But my guess is Apple is catering to the 80/90% with these machines and sales will be good. And early next year we'll see updates to the rest of the Mac line that will have hard core pro users in mind.
    "Mac sales" or "MBP sales"?  :-)  I think you mean "big drop in MBP sales."  But I don't know that alone would change Apple's thinking.  We already know Apple's attention is on the iPhone and other iOS devices anyway.  That's where the real numbers are.  None of us can say that "if Apple didn't care about a market segment they would not create a machine specifically for it."  Why can't we say that?  Consider the poor Mac Pro.  Apple made it back in 2013 and it has been ignored (abandoned?) since then.  They spent all that time and money on a machine they are not updating, which means they really don't care about it, yet they made it.  I cannot understand that logic.  Hence, we cannot always say Apple is logical in its decisions.  

    And as to your point about "waiting until next year," I'm not holding my breath with regard to the Mac Pro.  Regarding the MBP, I suppose the MacBook AIR set a precedent in that Apple later made the machine better.  So it is possible Apple might restore some functionality to the MBP if sales drop enough and the bad press continues and people continue to voice strongly negative opinions in the forums (pertaining to the machines, not their fellow forum members), then maybe, just maybe, Apple will recant and do the right thing.  

    An all USB-C future is at least 5 years out.  And by that time, the MBP will be a very different machine.  Apple should have released a MBP that was a bridge between old and new.  That would not have killed all the complaining, but it will probably have killed most, and my own voice would be completely silent as I opened my wallet and placed an order.  Yes, I've been waiting a long time for an update, but I don't like these models.  Maybe I'll wait until June to see if Apple changes it's tune (probably not), or maybe I'll get a fully loaded 15" MBP M370X and rejoice on the good keyboard and all the ports.  That's what many people are certainly mulling now.  The only down side is prices for those machines are still sky high.  If they were 50% less, I'd buy one in a heart beat.  But when they sell for about the same price as the new MBP's, it pains me to pull the trigger on a purchase of such an older machine.  That's the dilemma.


  • Reply 196 of 224
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,691member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    flaneur said:
    knowitall said:

    zoetmb said:
    slurpy said:
    Aw's move by Apple. This SHOULD shut up most of the complaints, but of course it won't. 
    It's not like Apple is selling $500 laptops.   There's two ways to look at this:  

    The first is that if someone is buying a laptop that starts at $2400, they should't be complaining about having to buy some adapters, even if they're overpriced and that if you're a pro, technology advances and the investment is the price of doing business.  

    The other way to look at it is that if someone is spending between $2400 and $4300 (for the MBP with all options except for application software and AppleCare), Apple shouldn't have cheaped out and they should have provided 2 to 4 adapters in the box of the customer's choosing.   The price of four adapters/cables is as much as a cheap PC.   

    And then my cost of ownership goes up because I can't replace the battery, expand memory or replace the SSD myself.   Or, if I Iive with a 256GB SSD, I've got to get a ton of external storage for pro-level photos and video and live with the hassle of not having every file with me when I'm out of the home/office.  

    This is another example of Apple labeling something "pro" and then not understanding the workflow of their pro customers.   They did that with FinalCutPro and they did it when they moved away from the tower configuration of the MacPro.  

    Every time Apple switches ports, they tell the market how their new choices are the greatest and how they want lboth manufacturers and consumers to commit to that port.  Then after a few years, they change their minds and they move on to something else.   Did they really need to drop Mag-safe?  What about all the people who bought extra power supplies to keep at home/office, etc.?   HDMI is ubiquitous on TVs and receivers and the cables have become inexpensive, but now I've got to buy an adapter that costs ten times what the cable cost?

    What was Apple's rationale for going solely to USB-C?   Was it because they truly think this port is the future and that the accessory market will fully move to that port and that it provides technological advantages?   Or was it really because of Ive's anal-obsessiveness over thinness and not wanting to look at different sized/shaped ports on the side of the machine?   What drives me crazy is that Apple wants the machine to have this superior industrial design so that it looks great in photos and in ads, but they have no problem with users having to stick a bunch of dongles and adapters on the thing.   It's the same with the iPhone and the obsession with thinness, but then we have to put it in a case because it can't survive a fall.   So few are really seeing and feeling the thinness anyway.  Sometimes I think people at Apple don't actually use the products they produce in the real world. 

    So, IMO, criticism is warranted.   If Apple wants my money, they're going to have to do a bit better.   I hate using PCs at work, but I'm not spending $4K to $5K on my next computer and I don't want to feel like I have less than what I have today.  So as much as I hate Windows, my next laptop might actually be a Windows machine.  And I've been an Apple customer for 35 years. 
    Ok, very good comment, especially your remark about Jony Ive, when will he appear on stage?
    I do think that profit maximization (and the hot breath of the shareholder) is getting the better of Apple.
    Its all money money money, and Apple holds their customers at ransom by disabling all upgrade options so they cannot expand the life of the computers and have to dig very deep to get all MBs needed.

    This is why Apple is holding back the ARM; if they expand RAM beyond 4GB (and have enough memory pins on the Ax die to support that) board modders will find a way to connect a TB or so external RAM and iPads and iPhones can be used - or have a second life - as regular computers.
    That was actually a stupid and gross comment he made about Ive. And he should never appear on stage. That's absolutely not his remit, and you should know that.

    You may not agree with his decisions, but you should acknowledge what's behind them. Example: one of the requirements of a portable machine is that it be rugged enough to survive drops and bumps. Upgradability means points of weakness, thus all the adhesive and the hermetic sealing. It's not about new model upsell, or what would be the same thing, planned obsolescence. Why would they make them so durable if that were so?
    Apple's laptops are not rugged enough to survive drops. Believe me on this. If you suffer a drop - start praying. Upgradability has nothing to do with 'points of weakness'. Where on earth did you hear that? If your connections are good... On the contrary, if your laptop doesn't survive the drop, hermetic sealing and glue mean you lose accessibility to get in and locate the problem. Accessibility together with user upgradeable parts, extends the life of the machine both in terms of lifespan and usefulness.
    I didn't hear that, I figured it out. Why does modern manufacturing practice make things more and more sealed and non-user serviceable? Answer: to make them more foolproof. Who are the fools? Answer: the user. 

    I"m not saying that Jony Ive thinks we're fools, by the way, just that as an honest designer, he's resorting to this design for the benefit of the product, and thus the user. I prefer anything I use to be fixable with my own hands and I still rebuild my own VW engines, but I realize that this is not the trend of the wider world. So I let it go and don't carp about my wife's Toyota. And I don't blame Apple if my phone breaks if I drop it, either. I know they tried. 
    Glue is used to shave mm off the thinness of the machine. Making them inaccessible only serves Apple, not the user. 
    ERRRNT! incorrect. inaccessibility is a side-effect of the actual benefit to the user -- thinness & lightness. I'm a software developer and i can lug my notebook to a client side, an airport, or a cafe. a heavier machine is more of a burden than a lighter machine. i certainly appreciate lightness. if that means i cant later upgrade the RAM, so be it -- no big whoop. as a pro I've already selected the amount of RAM i needed from Day 1, and give it zero thoughts afterward. but weight? thats something that continues to affect me every time i travel outside my office.

    that is why these devices have built-in memory, storage, glue, etc -- because using off-the-shelf components and still achieving these value-giving form factors is impossible. see iPad. are you complaining about user accessibility on your iPad? nope. your iPhone? nope. your iPod? nope. your DVD player? nope. home receiver? nope. getting the point? appliance computing. 

    if you dont like appliance computing apple is not the brand for you. 
    As I said, but you ignored, when thinness leads to compromises it isn't innovation. In this case it isn't a benefit because things had to be sacrificed to get there. I have complained about sealed in batteries since they came into use. The only access I want to my iPad is that. I already have access to my DVD player (which has a hard drive in it) and my receiver. Neither of them use glue by the way. Being a few millimetres thinner than they were gives me no added value. None. They were thin enough. We lost value on the form factor by having to use dongles!!
    no, you've ignored the point. inaccessibility isn't the feature -- it's the side effect. even thinness isn't the feature, it's a side effect. reduction of weight & mass is the feature. the tool gets smaller and smaller, and that's a true value add in a portable (keyword: portable).

    nobody in their right mind is going to upgrade the HD in their DVD player (am I reading that right? your disc player has a HD that you have or plan on upgrading? riiiight). nobody in their right mind complains about not being able to upgrade anything or swap out the battery in their iPad Air. nobody. a random DIY tinkerer is not a valid use case, by any stretch. certainly no pro user like myself is going to fuck around changing batteries on an iPad -- it's an appliance, and it works until it doesn't. and ill know it with enough time to make decision long before it stops me from earning with the tool.

    "we" did not lose value on the form factor because adapters. this should be obvious but here you go -- who is "we"? are my needs the same as yours? apparently not. I'm a software developer -- WTF do i need a consumer grade SD memory card reader built into my dev machine for!? I've never EVER used this, on ANY of my MBPs. total waste of space. likewise for other ports -- i dont need that shit, so to me ditching them is a pro, not a con. meanwhile, *if* you do (and id bet most dont), all you gotta do is plug the damn thing into the side of your machine and have at it. thus the burden of that compromise resides with you, the guy who needs it, and not i, the guy who does not.

    it's simple. thats how apple thinks. if you dont, you arent in alignment with their product offering and will never be happy. seek relief elsewhere.

    I have said many times before, user upgradability is a feature. User Upgradability, by definition, means user accessibility. With the move to glue we lost that feature. When you try to defend this by arguing that it was a side effect of thinness, you are missing the point. We (that is an impersonal 'we' by the way) lost a key feature in the quest for thinness. Thinness that we never needed if it meant losing a key feature of a pro machine. I have also said that the quest for thinness should not lead to design compromises. In this case we lost ports unnecessarily. We lost a good keyboard for one that is not as pleasant to use as the one it replaces. It now seems that it is very noisy too. We can consider the keyboard a critical element of any laptop but we lost a good one just for the sake of thinness. Perhaps you share Jony Ive's obsession for thinness and have no issue with not being able to upgrade the machine with (higher capacity and cheaper) components in a few years. Just take a walk around the net and you will see that my opinion (or large parts of it) is not part of a vocal minority. The sheer number of posts and the comments that hang off them are good indicators of that.

    I repeat. Thinness is not innovation. It doesn't matter how thin it feels in your hands. If we were already on the limit with the existing keyboard and ports they shouldn't have sacrificed them in the name of something that wasn't necessary.

  • Reply 197 of 224
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,691member
    flaneur said:
    ^^^ The view from the PC nerd retirement home. ". . . the vast majority . . . would tell you they prefer user Upgradability."

    I think you have outlived your relevance here if you believe that laptops from Apple are going to return to user upgradability. 

    Thinness matters to people in ways that you are clearly immune to sensing. It IS a matter of the senses. It kicks in when you go to the store and you feel the thing in your hands, or when you see one in your friend's hands and it's passed to you. That's when the sale happens, and it will be happening in enough millions that Apple will win their bet on the future. 
    You summed up Apple's problems very well there. Pro users do not buy machines (at these prices) because they look or feel nice.

    It's a Mac. It should look and feel nice anyway. What matters is if the machine can cater to your needs adequately.
  • Reply 198 of 224
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,691member
    Soli said:
    avon b7, your arguments sound like every other complaint from every generation of PC innovations. I mean EVERY. When going to the GUI/mouse from command line, to going to a notebook from a BYO tower desktop, you sound like everyone that claimed it was the wrong direction because professionals do this and need that. You're certainly not a good MacBook Pro-gnasticator, but perhaps you can look back at the history of computing and see how your same arguments have been repeatedly disproven as professionals have continually stepped into the SW and HW people like you called worthless, overpriced toys.
    Again you attribute a way of thinking to me that is incorrect. Magsafe, retroilluminated keyboards,etc., even the glowing Apple logo and 'pulsing' sleep indicators were all evolutionary moves that enhanced the user experience and sacrificed nothing. IMO, the G4 (Sawtooth) was the best Desktop design Apple ever had. I even prefer it to the G5 design. I have never advocated the command line but rarely complained about it either. I have rarely complained about Macs but have always complained about the company. In recent years I have complained about the Mac itself and have now stopped recommending it altogether. That won't change until I see prices drop sharply or there is a change at the core of Apple. They need to put the pro user centre stage again start making great Macs again. This model could have been great but it isn't. The need to do the same with the consumer.
  • Reply 199 of 224
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    avon b7 said:
    Pro users do not buy machines (at these prices) because they look or feel nice. […] What matters is if the machine can cater to your needs adequately.
    Followed by…
    avon b7 said:
    ...the glowing Apple logo [was an] evolutionary move that enhanced the user experience.
    Yeah, that glowing Apple logo on the other side of my Mac's display really "enhanced the user experience." Brilliant¡
    edited November 2016
  • Reply 200 of 224
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,691member
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    Pro users do not buy machines (at these prices) because they look or feel nice. […] What matters is if the machine can cater to your needs adequately.
    Followed by…
    avon b7 said:
    ...the glowing Apple logo [was an] evolutionary move that enhanced the user experience.
    Yeah, that glowing Apple logo on the other side of my Mac's display really "enhanced the user experience." Brilliant¡
    Are the two mutually exclusive? Think about it. I explained it. All you have to do is understand it.
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