Apple cuts prices on USB-C & Thunderbolt 3 gear in response to MacBook Pro backlash

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  • Reply 101 of 224
    wiggin said:

    What would be the impact to you if the MBP did have a USB A port? Either in addition to the 4 C ports or in place of one (if you ever have 4 things plugged in at the same time, what are the odds that there isn't at least one of them that's a USB A device?). What harm would it cause you???

    That, kids, is how a grown-up presents an argument.

    I *like* having four universal ports, but if I was in a design meeting and you put it to me that way, I might be inclined to include an A port!
    baconstangduervo
  • Reply 102 of 224
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    Peperino said:
    If USB-C is the future, why Apple did not deliver the iPhone 7 with a USB-C cable? Furthermore…. what hardware is using USB-C now… ZERO… only the new Apple (LG) displays… Hey… but you have 4 of them… How can they be so lame to remove such a smart thing as the Mag-safe..??
    Many of the higher end PCs like the Dell XPS 13 come with USB-C.  In the case of the XPS 13 it replaces the mini display port and provides TB3.

    USB-C is going to be everywhere quickly.  The only phones that won't be USB-C will be iPhones.  Apple might move to USB-C on iPhones but I kinda doubt it.  Currently the lighting connectors are a little smaller than USB-C and better for the phone as torquing the lighting cable is more likely to break the cable than the phone.  Plus Apple has full control over the spec.
    chia
  • Reply 103 of 224
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member

    wiggin said:

    What would be the impact to you if the MBP did have a USB A port? Either in addition to the 4 C ports or in place of one (if you ever have 4 things plugged in at the same time, what are the odds that there isn't at least one of them that's a USB A device?). What harm would it cause you???
    It would cost me needing adapters to use USB-C devices on the 13" that has only two TB-C/USB-C ports.

    On the 13" and 15" with 4 TB-3/USB-C ports I will use 2 up for:

    Port 1: USB-C hub for HDMI, power, USB-A ports.  Alternatively a TB3 hub.
    Port 2: TB-3 SSD raid enclosure for 40Gbps throughput.

    In the future all my external drives will be USB-C.  I would then need to use an adapter.  That would be annoying. 

    I have 4 things plugged in my MBP every day: magsafe, TB-Ethernet adapter, Displayport, USB3 drive.

    At home it's magsafe, TB drive, USB3 drive, HDMI.

    Yeah, it would be harmful.  I'd rather have 4 fully functional ports than 2 fully functional ports and 2 gimped ports.
  • Reply 104 of 224
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    wiggin said:
    flaneur said:
    wiggin said:
    flaneur said:
    zoetmb said:
    slurpy said:
    Awesome move by Apple. This SHOULD shut up most of the complaints, but of course it won't. 
    It's not like Apple is selling $500 laptops.   There's two ways to look at this:  

    The first is that if someone is buying a laptop that starts at $2400, they should't be complaining about having to buy some adapters, even if they're overpriced and that if you're a pro, technology advances and the investment is the price of doing business.  

    The other way to look at it is that if someone is spending between $2400 and $4300 (for the MBP with all options except for application software and AppleCare), Apple shouldn't have cheaped out and they should have provided 2 to 4 adapters in the box of the customer's choosing.   The price of four adapters/cables is as much as a cheap PC.   

    And then my cost of ownership goes up because I can't replace the battery, expand memory or replace the SSD myself.   Or, if I Iive with a 256GB SSD, I've got to get a ton of external storage for pro-level photos and video and live with the hassle of not having every file with me when I'm out of the home/office.  

    This is another example of Apple labeling something "pro" and then not understanding the workflow of their pro customers.   They did that with FinalCutPro and they did it when they moved away from the tower configuration of the MacPro.  

    Every time Apple switches ports, they tell the market how their new choices are the greatest and how they want both manufacturers and consumers to commit to that port.  Then after a few years, they change their minds and they move on to something else.   Did they really need to drop Mag-safe?  What about all the people who bought extra power supplies to keep at home/office, etc.?   HDMI is ubiquitous on TVs and receivers and the cables have become inexpensive, but now I've got to buy an adapter that costs ten times what the cable cost?

    What was Apple's rationale for going solely to USB-C?   Was it because they truly think this port is the future and that the accessory market will fully move to that port and that it provides technological advantages?   Or was it really because of Ive's anal-obsessiveness over thinness and not wanting to look at different sized/shaped ports on the side of the machine?   What drives me crazy is that Apple wants the machine to have this superior industrial design so that it looks great in photos and in ads, but they have no problem with users having to stick a bunch of dongles and adapters on the thing.   It's the same with the iPhone and the obsession with thinness, but then we have to put it in a case because it can't survive a fall.   So few are really seeing and feeling the thinness anyway.  Sometimes I think people at Apple don't actually use the products they produce in the real world. 

    So, IMO, criticism is warranted.   If Apple wants my money, they're going to have to do a bit better.   I hate using PCs at work, but I'm not spending $4K to $5K on my next computer and I don't want to feel like I have less than what I have today.  So as much as I hate Windows, my next laptop might actually be a Windows machine.  And I've been an Apple customer for 35 years. 
    Actually I think it's you and other dongle-phobes who are the anal-obsessives. 

    There is so much pure, sculpted techno eroticism in the new form factor that you'd have to be a puritanical ass-wipe to give a second's thought to how it looks with an adapter or two plugged into it.

    I can't believe the pettiness of you people. The new MBP is the culmination of five years of foresighted development, if you include —as you must — the investments they were jumping on in IGZO development going that far back to Japan, no less, where the tech was developed. 

    Same with the keyboard. If Swiss watchmakers made keyboard switches, they would maybe be like this. Probably another five years in the making. And the aluminum machining — try to find a wonky tenth of a millimeter of misfit. How long have they been developing that? And the asymmetric fans, and so on.

    Go get yourself a Windows machine. You may not deserve to handle one of these unless you come around. Meanwhile, millions are going to get limitless pleasure out of picking theirs up to pack it at the end of the day as they gladly take care to pack its adapters in the case with it. 

    Edit: you know why there's no USB A? It's too big, that's why. It's as obsolete as the headphone jack is on the iPhone. If you want them to make the base thicker just to accommodate that port, you're disqualified as an Apple observer.
    LOL. You’re not so hot as an observer, either. Why? Because you wouldn’t need to make the MBP base thicker to accommodate a USB A port. You just have to stop drinking the Kool-Aid long enough to see past Ive’s designed illusion of thinness. You clearly think that the thickness of the base is only that narrow flat band where the USB C ports are; and if that were true you’d be correct and an A port would not fit. But it’s not true. That is only about half of the base’s thickness, the other half is the rounded/tapered edge that Apple uses on many of it’s products, part for structural reasons but probably mostly for aesthetic reasons (aka, it makes it look thinner than it really is).

    Given that Apple machines the MBP case, having one small section of that flat part, say about one inch, be about 2 mm thicker would be a trivial manufacturing change. And it would likely have zero impact structurally. So really, there is no technical, structural, or manufacturing related issue that would prevent them from easily doing that. (Alternatively, they could have made that band wider all the way around and reduced the thickness of the tapered curve to keep the same overall thickness. This would have the added benefit of actually creating more internal space for batteries, etc. But then that would not have given them the excuse that anything bigger than USB C was too thick.)

    The only issue remaining is that there would be an ever so slight disruption to the aesthetics. And you would no longer have your perfectly sculpted erotic hardware to grasp in your hand.


    Nice piece of design-work there, mate. The cutout for the old USB port is 4.7mm high, so to give the connector head and footroom you'd have to have a edge-face about 7,7. Run that much extra metal around the entire base and you're talking about a couple of ounces of wasted aluminum, along with destroying the whole tactile experience of this version. (Why did the Air sell so well? Because of those contours under your fingers.)

    Ive is not going to waste metal on that dead and dying port. He's got too much integrity for that. Refresh your acquaintance with Buckminster Fuller if you don't see this as an integrity issue.

    Your suggestion that a flat section be provided for the A port is hilarious. There is no "trivial" compromise when it comes to machining the feel of these laptops. Go to the store and check one out. There has never been anything technical for the consumer (or "pro") with the character of these instruments. We're unbelieveably lucky to have them coming out in these otherwise sorry times. Enough of the ungrateful whining! Learn to enjoy hooking up with adapters! Stop calling them dongles, you perverts! Grow up!
    The USB A plug is 2 mm thicker than the USB C. The point is that the the claim that the MBP wasn't thick enough to accommodate the plug is false. You need to stop obsessing about the look and feel of the hardware. Sure, I appreciate that Apple puts care and thought into the appearance of their products, but at the end of the day it's a tool for getting work done, not a work of art.
    You need to grow a pair of eyes and learn to use your fingers.

    At the end of even your day, an Apple laptop is both a tool and a work of art equally, same as the iPhones, and this is exactly why the company is as successful as it is, and it's the essence of Jobs' vision of the use of technology.

    The new MacBooks are too thin to accommodate USB A. Raising an edge for the port would waste metal unconscionably, add weight, and destroy the look and feel of one of the most prominent elements of the design, its edge.

    The reason Apple is so interesting and revolutionary as a company is that it is the first American company to treat consumer technology as an art. It used to be almost exclusively a European and Asian approach. Not so much snymore.

    But let's not overlook the reason for thinness and lightness, aside from not wasting metal. It's a mobile device. You pick it up, slide it into a case, slide it out, put it on your lap, curl up with it, etc. These are all part of the user experience, just as much as the operation of the software, or the trackpad, or the keyboard. In fact, Apple has proven time and again that nothing is more important than the look and feel of the package.
    edited November 2016 smaceslin
  • Reply 105 of 224
    wiggin said:

    The USB A plug is 2 mm thicker than the USB C. The point is that the the claim that the MBP wasn't thick enough to accommodate the plug is false. You need to stop obsessing about the look and feel of the hardware. Sure, I appreciate that Apple puts care and thought into the appearance of their products, but at the end of the day it's a tool for getting work done, not a work of art.

    On the apparent obsession with thin-and-light at Apple, from a recent quasi-convert:

    I'm going to repeat something I wrote in another thread because it's relevant here.

    Please read it from the perspective who someone who looks at a computer the same way a carpenter looks at a hammer. While I do care somewhat about how it feels and how much it weighs, what I'm really concerned about is how well I can drive nails with it.

    I never understood why people with serious work to do would care if their computer is a hundred grams lighter or a couple millimetres thinner. My 17" MacBook Pro was big and heavy but also fast and powerful with lots of storage, and still easier to lug around than an iMac! Then it died.

    Knowing the new MacBook Pros were on the horizon, I didn't want to spend a lot on aging tech, so instead of loading up a top-of-the-line MBP with every option available BTO, I picked up an Air to tide me over until the new machines hit the stores.

    It's been a bit of an epiphany for me. The experience is different. Sure, it's still just a computer, but it's somehow nicer to use. I find myself using it in places and applications I may not have bothered before. Somehow working with something I can carry in one hand and set just about anywhere is more "inviting" than firing up The Beast, so when I get a creative urge I just ACT on it instead of making a mental note to do it later. Having a smaller, lighter hammer has resulted in me driving WAY more nails than I used to, and getting more enjoyment from it. I think I'm starting to understand some of what the skinny-chasers are on about.

    Thing is, I would never have gained this appreciation for it had I not tried it myself. It's not logical or quantifiable. It's an intangible, but it really has changed the way I work.

    So, I know that transitioning ports is a pain in the ass and I understand the resistance, ESPECIALLY when it's in the pursuit of things that seemingly shouldn't matter (like making a hammer smaller and lighter) but I'm starting to think maybe there *IS* value -- as in contributing to doing better work -- in the drive to slim 'em down, and maybe it's worth dropping fat ports to get there.

    Everyone has different priorities and as recently as two months ago I would have been on the pro-fat side of this argument, but it's possible your position on the subject may soften once you've had a chance to experience the benefits first hand. Mine did.

    With respect for your position and opinions.
    Solicanukstormsmaceslinbrucemctallest skil
  • Reply 106 of 224
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    wiggin said:

    The USB A plug is 2 mm thicker than the USB C. The point is that the the claim that the MBP wasn't thick enough to accommodate the plug is false. You need to stop obsessing about the look and feel of the hardware. Sure, I appreciate that Apple puts care and thought into the appearance of their products, but at the end of the day it's a tool for getting work done, not a work of art.

    On the apparent obsession with thin-and-light at Apple, from a recent quasi-convert:

    I'm going to repeat something I wrote in another thread because it's relevant here.

    Please read it from the perspective who someone who looks at a computer the same way a carpenter looks at a hammer. While I do care somewhat about how it feels and how much it weighs, what I'm really concerned about is how well I can drive nails with it.

    I never understood why people with serious work to do would care if their computer is a hundred grams lighter or a couple millimetres thinner. My 17" MacBook Pro was big and heavy but also fast and powerful with lots of storage, and still easier to lug around than an iMac! Then it died.

    Knowing the new MacBook Pros were on the horizon, I didn't want to spend a lot on aging tech, so instead of loading up a top-of-the-line MBP with every option available BTO, I picked up an Air to tide me over until the new machines hit the stores.

    It's been a bit of an epiphany for me. The experience is different. Sure, it's still just a computer, but it's somehow nicer to use. I find myself using it in places and applications I may not have bothered before. Somehow working with something I can carry in one hand and set just about anywhere is more "inviting" than firing up The Beast, so when I get a creative urge I just ACT on it instead of making a mental note to do it later. Having a smaller, lighter hammer has resulted in me driving WAY more nails than I used to, and getting more enjoyment from it. I think I'm starting to understand some of what the skinny-chasers are on about.

    Thing is, I would never have gained this appreciation for it had I not tried it myself. It's not logical or quantifiable. It's an intangible, but it really has changed the way I work.

    So, I know that transitioning ports is a pain in the ass and I understand the resistance, ESPECIALLY when it's in the pursuit of things that seemingly shouldn't matter (like making a hammer smaller and lighter) but I'm starting to think maybe there *IS* value -- as in contributing to doing better work -- in the drive to slim 'em down, and maybe it's worth dropping fat ports to get there.

    Everyone has different priorities and as recently as two months ago I would have been on the pro-fat side of this argument, but it's possible your position on the subject may soften once you've had a chance to experience the benefits first hand. Mine did.

    With respect for your position and opinions.
    Thanks, great post.
    canukstormtallest skil
  • Reply 107 of 224
    ktappektappe Posts: 823member
    flaneur said:
    I never understood why people with serious work to do would care if their computer is a hundred grams lighter or a couple millimetres thinner.
    Because they don't. NOBODY cares if their MacBook is a couple mm thinner. The latest event proves that Apple is 100% out of touch with any consumer. I challenge ANYONE to produce a single consumer who was clammoring for a thinner MacBook Pro. A single one. 

    Ive. Cook. Schiller. They are apparently COMPLETELY divorced from the real world. Honestly. The 13" MacBook Pro I've,been carrying around for 2 years has flaws, to be sure. But "it's not thin enough" is not one of them. "It lacks battery life" is sure one. "It lacks USB-C". Well, OK. Eventually that could have been one. "It has too type-able a keyboard." Um...no, that never would have been one. "It has too many convenient ports." WTF?

    Where. Are. These. Guys. Living? I mean really. They can't be living on planet earth. Not the Earth I live on. 
    edited November 2016 baconstangfreethinkingduervo
  • Reply 108 of 224
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,680member
    avon b7 said:
    bwik said:

    This whole thing is unbelievably pedantic on Apple's part.  Virtually none of the press release is even true.  "We realize.." No, you don't.

    "legacy connectors" - No, professional, necessary connectors.

    "a transition" - No, Apple, you will make the transition, not others.

    It is astounding that a "computer" cannot interface with USB or with a disc anymore.  I am getting old!  These are not real computers.  They should cost $300 maximum.

    I have superior equipment that is older (much of it Apple).  With things like replaceable hard drives, replaceable batteries and upgradeable RAM.  I am amazed that new equipment you buy today is inferior to what I have.  My MBP has Firewire, several USB ports, optical out (which I use)... etc.  And 1TB storage.  And it was cheap!  Rawr I am old, time for my nap.

    nonsense. apple skates to where the puck is going, and all the other fatasses go to where it was and complain about having to skate at all. 

    i guarantee this new MBP will smoke your old crap in every meaningful performance test any day of the week. your big ass removable batteries, hard drives and ram do me absolutely NO good for completing my work. i max my machines out from Day 1 and start generating value. when they get too slow i replace them. (usually by reselling!). that's it. i've never upgraded a notebook hard drive, that's absurd. if the battery fails i drop it off with service.

    these are tools, not hobby machines for tinkerers. get a raspberry pi for that. 
    You seem to have more money than sense. If you max out one of these machines the vast majority of pro users would have to re-mortgage their house. How many pro users do you think can apply your tactics? And what's the point of maxing out SSD - at Apple's prices- at time of purchase if you're not going to fill it immediately? I say immediately because Apple is shipping MacBook Pros with 128GB of non upgradeable SSD. They seem to think you can get by on that just fine. Why not wait a couple of years and upgrade to better, bigger, cheaper SSD? Whoops! You can't.

    Why should you have to send in your mac just to change a battery? All MBPs spend 100% of their time sat on their backsides. Nobody ever looks there. Use some small screws and let me take the bottom plate off. Make the battery user replaceable! get rid of the glue! Apple has gone too far on thinness.

    "your big ass removable batteries, hard drives and ram do me absolutely NO good for completing my work"

    That sentence means nothing. Are you saying that having everything sealed in DOES do you good for completing your work? Surely both scenarios are exactly the same. They would have the same benefit on your work. That said, having user upgradeable RAM, SSD and batteries does offer some advantages.
    " If you max out one of these machines the vast majority of pro users would have to re-mortgage their house."

    If you're  a Pro (as in using the device to generate income), why mortgage the house? Use it as a simple tax write-off.
    Soli
  • Reply 109 of 224
    avon b7 said:

    zoetmb said:
    slurpy said:
    Awesome move by Apple. This SHOULD shut up most of the complaints, but of course it won't. 
    It's not like Apple is selling $500 laptops.   There's two ways to look at this:  

    The first is that if someone is buying a laptop that starts at $2400, they should't be complaining about having to buy some adapters, even if they're overpriced and that if you're a pro, technology advances and the investment is the price of doing business.  

    The other way to look at it is that if someone is spending between $2400 and $4300 (for the MBP with all options except for application software and AppleCare), Apple shouldn't have cheaped out and they should have provided 2 to 4 adapters in the box of the customer's choosing.   The price of four adapters/cables is as much as a cheap PC.   

    And then my cost of ownership goes up because I can't replace the battery, expand memory or replace the SSD myself.   Or, if I Iive with a 256GB SSD, I've got to get a ton of external storage for pro-level photos and video and live with the hassle of not having every file with me when I'm out of the home/office.  

    This is another example of Apple labeling something "pro" and then not understanding the workflow of their pro customers.   They did that with FinalCutPro and they did it when they moved away from the tower configuration of the MacPro.  

    Every time Apple switches ports, they tell the market how their new choices are the greatest and how they want both manufacturers and consumers to commit to that port.  Then after a few years, they change their minds and they move on to something else.   Did they really need to drop Mag-safe?  What about all the people who bought extra power supplies to keep at home/office, etc.?   HDMI is ubiquitous on TVs and receivers and the cables have become inexpensive, but now I've got to buy an adapter that costs ten times what the cable cost?

    What was Apple's rationale for going solely to USB-C?   Was it because they truly think this port is the future and that the accessory market will fully move to that port and that it provides technological advantages?   Or was it really because of Ive's anal-obsessiveness over thinness and not wanting to look at different sized/shaped ports on the side of the machine?   What drives me crazy is that Apple wants the machine to have this superior industrial design so that it looks great in photos and in ads, but they have no problem with users having to stick a bunch of dongles and adapters on the thing.   It's the same with the iPhone and the obsession with thinness, but then we have to put it in a case because it can't survive a fall.   So few are really seeing and feeling the thinness anyway.  Sometimes I think people at Apple don't actually use the products they produce in the real world. 

    So, IMO, criticism is warranted.   If Apple wants my money, they're going to have to do a bit better.   I hate using PCs at work, but I'm not spending $4K to $5K on my next computer and I don't want to feel like I have less than what I have today.  So as much as I hate Windows, my next laptop might actually be a Windows machine.  And I've been an Apple customer for 35 years. 
    I fully agree with this assessment. Ive needs some kind of therapy. This obsession with thinness and lightness has led to too many compromises. Prices went up with retina Macs and up again with these models. They are now literally out of the reach of many and severely compromised by being non-upgradeable and ultra expensive to repair. Currency fluctuations have just worsened an already bad situation. And let's not forget the foolish who never backup. If one of these models goes belly up it will be a lot of hassle getting the data out of the machine.

    The iPhone 6 and 7 have got to be the most slippery phones I've ever held. That's bad design. it doesn't matter how good it looks on the ads. If you absolutely need a case just to be able to hold the phone safely, something is wrong. I've never understood the hideous white dongles either. Completely overstated and so tacky. Good for an iBook but nothing else.

    I haven't had a chance to use the new keyboard but I think I won't like it. Was it necessary? Nope, but we got it because someone just had to shave off a couple of mm from somewhere.

    The future? I already see it. One slab of glass sitting over the body of the laptop. No physical keys of any kind. Just a touchscreen with force touch and 'virtual' trackpad included.
    You do a disservice to @zoetmb post by agreeing with him because yours is simply retard.

    For the bold part, why is that a bad thing? You just hate for hate sake.
    edited November 2016
  • Reply 110 of 224
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    " If you max out one of these machines the vast majority of pro users would have to re-mortgage their house."

    If you're  a Pro (as in using the device to generate income), why mortgage the house? Use it as a simple tax write-off.
    And if he's remortgaging his home to buy a personal computer then I've got some serious concerns about his ability to understand finances.
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 111 of 224
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,680member
    avon b7 said:
    adonissmu said:
    sumergo said:
    zoetmb said:
    slurpy said:
    Awesome move by Apple. This SHOULD shut up most of the complaints, but of course it won't. 
    It's not like Apple is selling $500 laptops.   There's two ways to look at this:  


    Apple has lost it's way regarding usability - criticism is warranted.

    Ive may or may not be a good industrial designer but he clearly doesn't know much about the main concepts of usability - the "look, feel & flow" of a hardware/software product.  We get the "look": but the "feel & flow"? - any sense of how it actually feels to use the product effectively day by day is missing from the designs.  As zoetmb notes, Apple doesn't appear to use the devices they produce any more.  We certainly don't see any pix of MBPs with cascades of dongles cluttering the user's desk.

    It's not just my view - here are comments from a couple of the world's top UI/UX/Interaction designers who worked with Apple to create it's original world-class usability experience.
    http://www.fastcodesign.com/3053406/how-apple-is-giving-design-a-bad-name
    Apple isn't losing anything accept for a sale or two initially. Apple has done this move before....and repeatedly. Apple is willing to stand on principle and moving the tech world forward over the hollering and griping of their users. They are doing standard Apple stuff. 
    It took Fireman Phil just six days to organize an interview just send out a message to the users. Now they are cutting dongle prices (temporarily). The internet is ignoring most of the good in these macs because the bad outshines it. There are no end of parody videos popping up everywhere. What is strange is that a huge part of the criticism is coming from Apple's own users. Design changes and decisions aside, the biggest problem is that MANY users feel these macs are enormously overpriced or simply out of reach.

    Apple will try to ride the storm but this time I think they won't be able to stand on principle.  With only the iPhone 7 and the new MBPs here in time for Christmas and the rest of the line without a refresh but also overpriced and out of date, earnings could be impacted. Stormy weather might be just around the corner.
    "The internet is ignoring most of the good in these macs because the bad outshines it"

    It isn't so much the internet that's focused on it except for a bunch pedantic tech bloggers who are hyper-focused on a singular & blowing shit out of proportion.  These tech blogger act as if this is Apple's first rodeo when it comes to dropping old ports. Read this for some perspective

    https://birchtree.me/blog/apple-does-this-sort-of-thing/
    Soli
  • Reply 112 of 224
    The only logical thing for Apple to do is to offer a free USB-C lightning cable to every single customer that owns an iphone and also bought the new Macbook Pro. Go to the Apple store or online, show your receipt for your Macbook Pro and your iPhone, get the cable.
  • Reply 113 of 224
    after owning pretty much every apple device sold over the last decade or so apple has broken me down. Will I have the courage to order a Dell XPS? They certainly kick the mac book pros ass all over the place in every way except the OS.
    SpamSandwichduervo
  • Reply 114 of 224
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    "The internet is ignoring most of the good in these macs because the bad outshines it"

    It isn't so much the internet that's focused on it except for a bunch pedantic tech bloggers who are hyper-focused on a singular & blowing shit out of proportion.  These tech blogger act as if this is Apple's first rodeo when it comes to dropping old ports. Read this for some perspective

    https://birchtree.me/blog/apple-does-this-sort-of-thing/
    Nice find on the link.
  • Reply 115 of 224
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,502member
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    WHY are people so attached to USB-A connectors?! We've been complaining about them for years! Everyone celebrated when the USB-C connector was announced. Now we finally get them and people complain? I don't get it. The C connector is a massive improvement -- shouldn't we be glad to have them?

    As for adapters, about the only common use case I can think of that might require one is flash drives. Those need to retain the A connector to plug into other computers. As for everything else, just replace the cable! $5-8 each at Monoprice. Not a big expense, not a hassle, and freedom from perpetual connector flipping!

    As for the "transition," how would YOU do it? A machine with half good connectors and half shitty ones? How is that better than using a couple adapters for a while or just replacing a couple cables? Is there some benefit to that approach that I'm just not seeing?

    It's obvious that USB-A, B, mini-B and Micro-B are going to be memories a year from now. Firewire already is. Do you want a machine with ports dedicated to things that no longer exist, or one with universal ports that can be used for everything from power to drives to networking to displays to whatever else comes out next week? I *MUCH* prefer the latter!
    Although USB-C is better it doesn't make the others ones shitty. Yes, a smooth transition would have been simple by including two USB-C ports and the existing ports. Adapters are a pain. They break. They get lost. They get in the way. The ad bulk. They cost extra. 
    The other ones Are shitty.  It's a joke that you have to try to plug in a USB-A cord three times.  It's funny because it's often true.

    By shipping 4 USB-C Apple has ensured that in the future you won't need crappy adapters to connect USB-C cables to the laptop.  Given that you can already buy USB-C to lighting and USB-C to USB-A cables it's relatively cheap to move into the future today.  As lorin states the only things that will require an adapter or hub are USB sticks.  That will pass quickly enough.  I have a drawer full of USB2 sticks I don't use anymore.  The USB-3 sticks will join them as I buy USB-C sticks.
    I've never had to plug in  USB three times. How do you know you won't have the same issues with USB-C? Or worse?
  • Reply 116 of 224
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,502member
    pentae said:
    The only logical thing for Apple to do is to offer a free USB-C lightning cable to every single customer that owns an iphone and also bought the new Macbook Pro. Go to the Apple store or online, show your receipt for your Macbook Pro and your iPhone, get the cable.
    That would at least be a gesture and resolve a problem.
  • Reply 117 of 224
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    WHY are people so attached to USB-A connectors?! We've been complaining about them for years! Everyone celebrated when the USB-C connector was announced. Now we finally get them and people complain? I don't get it. The C connector is a massive improvement -- shouldn't we be glad to have them?

    As for adapters, about the only common use case I can think of that might require one is flash drives. Those need to retain the A connector to plug into other computers. As for everything else, just replace the cable! $5-8 each at Monoprice. Not a big expense, not a hassle, and freedom from perpetual connector flipping!

    As for the "transition," how would YOU do it? A machine with half good connectors and half shitty ones? How is that better than using a couple adapters for a while or just replacing a couple cables? Is there some benefit to that approach that I'm just not seeing?

    It's obvious that USB-A, B, mini-B and Micro-B are going to be memories a year from now. Firewire already is. Do you want a machine with ports dedicated to things that no longer exist, or one with universal ports that can be used for everything from power to drives to networking to displays to whatever else comes out next week? I *MUCH* prefer the latter!
    Although USB-C is better it doesn't make the others ones shitty. Yes, a smooth transition would have been simple by including two USB-C ports and the existing ports. Adapters are a pain. They break. They get lost. They get in the way. The ad bulk. They cost extra. 
    The other ones Are shitty.  It's a joke that you have to try to plug in a USB-A cord three times.  It's funny because it's often true.

    By shipping 4 USB-C Apple has ensured that in the future you won't need crappy adapters to connect USB-C cables to the laptop.  Given that you can already buy USB-C to lighting and USB-C to USB-A cables it's relatively cheap to move into the future today.  As lorin states the only things that will require an adapter or hub are USB sticks.  That will pass quickly enough.  I have a drawer full of USB2 sticks I don't use anymore.  The USB-3 sticks will join them as I buy USB-C sticks.
    I've never had to plug in  USB three times. How do you know you won't have the same issues with [reversible] USB-C? Or worse?
    Holy crap on a cracker. That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen on a tech forum.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 118 of 224
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,502member
    avon b7 said:
    adonissmu said:
    sumergo said:
    zoetmb said:
    slurpy said:
    Awesome move by Apple. This SHOULD shut up most of the complaints, but of course it won't. 
    It's not like Apple is selling $500 laptops.   There's two ways to look at this:  


    Apple has lost it's way regarding usability - criticism is warranted.

    Ive may or may not be a good industrial designer but he clearly doesn't know much about the main concepts of usability - the "look, feel & flow" of a hardware/software product.  We get the "look": but the "feel & flow"? - any sense of how it actually feels to use the product effectively day by day is missing from the designs.  As zoetmb notes, Apple doesn't appear to use the devices they produce any more.  We certainly don't see any pix of MBPs with cascades of dongles cluttering the user's desk.

    It's not just my view - here are comments from a couple of the world's top UI/UX/Interaction designers who worked with Apple to create it's original world-class usability experience.
    http://www.fastcodesign.com/3053406/how-apple-is-giving-design-a-bad-name
    Apple isn't losing anything accept for a sale or two initially. Apple has done this move before....and repeatedly. Apple is willing to stand on principle and moving the tech world forward over the hollering and griping of their users. They are doing standard Apple stuff. 
    It took Fireman Phil just six days to organize an interview just send out a message to the users. Now they are cutting dongle prices (temporarily). The internet is ignoring most of the good in these macs because the bad outshines it. There are no end of parody videos popping up everywhere. What is strange is that a huge part of the criticism is coming from Apple's own users. Design changes and decisions aside, the biggest problem is that MANY users feel these macs are enormously overpriced or simply out of reach.

    Apple will try to ride the storm but this time I think they won't be able to stand on principle.  With only the iPhone 7 and the new MBPs here in time for Christmas and the rest of the line without a refresh but also overpriced and out of date, earnings could be impacted. Stormy weather might be just around the corner.
    "The internet is ignoring most of the good in these macs because the bad outshines it"

    It isn't so much the internet that's focused on it except for a bunch pedantic tech bloggers who are hyper-focused on a singular & blowing shit out of proportion.  These tech blogger act as if this is Apple's first rodeo when it comes to dropping old ports. Read this for some perspective

    https://birchtree.me/blog/apple-does-this-sort-of-thing/
    Not really. Just look at the comments on those posts/blogs/videos etc. The people are venting their anger and frustration. They are not happy. If they still buy, it will be with reluctance. If they don't, Apple will have some major egg on its face and find itself at a crossroads. Ignore the customer or cater to what the customer wants. By that time we will have seen what traction Microsoft has gained with its new hardware. Interesting times.
    baconstangduervo
  • Reply 119 of 224
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,502member
    avon b7 said:
    bwik said:

    This whole thing is unbelievably pedantic on Apple's part.  Virtually none of the press release is even true.  "We realize.." No, you don't.

    "legacy connectors" - No, professional, necessary connectors.

    "a transition" - No, Apple, you will make the transition, not others.

    It is astounding that a "computer" cannot interface with USB or with a disc anymore.  I am getting old!  These are not real computers.  They should cost $300 maximum.

    I have superior equipment that is older (much of it Apple).  With things like replaceable hard drives, replaceable batteries and upgradeable RAM.  I am amazed that new equipment you buy today is inferior to what I have.  My MBP has Firewire, several USB ports, optical out (which I use)... etc.  And 1TB storage.  And it was cheap!  Rawr I am old, time for my nap.

    nonsense. apple skates to where the puck is going, and all the other fatasses go to where it was and complain about having to skate at all. 

    i guarantee this new MBP will smoke your old crap in every meaningful performance test any day of the week. your big ass removable batteries, hard drives and ram do me absolutely NO good for completing my work. i max my machines out from Day 1 and start generating value. when they get too slow i replace them. (usually by reselling!). that's it. i've never upgraded a notebook hard drive, that's absurd. if the battery fails i drop it off with service.

    these are tools, not hobby machines for tinkerers. get a raspberry pi for that. 
    You seem to have more money than sense. If you max out one of these machines the vast tmajority of pro users would have to re-mortgage their house. How many pro users do you think can apply your tactics? And what's the point of maxing out SSD - at Apple's prices- at time of purchase if you're not going to fill it immediately? I say immediately because Apple is shipping MacBook Pros with 128GB of non upgradeable SSD. They seem to think you can get by on that just fine. Why not wait a couple of years and upgrade to better, bigger, cheaper SSD? Whoops! You can't.

    Why should you have to send in your mac just to change a battery? All MBPs spend 100% of their time sat on their backsides. Nobody ever looks there. Use some small screws and let me take the bottom plate off. Make the battery user replaceable! get rid of the glue! Apple has gone too far on thinness.

    "your big ass removable batteries, hard drives and ram do me absolutely NO good for completing my work"

    That sentence means nothing. Are you saying that having everything sealed in DOES do you good for completing your work? Surely both scenarios are exactly the same. They would have the same benefit on your work. That said, having user upgradeable RAM, SSD and batteries does offer some advantages.
    " If you max out one of these machines the vast majority of pro users would have to re-mortgage their house."

    If you're  a Pro (as in using the device to generate income), why mortgage the house? Use it as a simple tax write-off.
    The term isn't literal. It's a way of saying you will have to make enormous financial sacrifice to get something. Very common in my neck of the woods. In the same way the phrase 'cost an arm and a leg' doesn't imply amputation of those limbs.
    edited November 2016 duervo
  • Reply 120 of 224
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,502member
    matrix077 said:
    avon b7 said:

    zoetmb said:
    slurpy said:
    Awesome move by Apple. This SHOULD shut up most of the complaints, but of course it won't. 
    It's not like Apple is selling $500 laptops.   There's two ways to look at this:  

    The first is that if someone is buying a laptop that starts at $2400, they should't be complaining about having to buy some adapters, even if they're overpriced and that if you're a pro, technology advances and the investment is the price of doing business.  

    The other way to look at it is that if someone is spending between $2400 and $4300 (for the MBP with all options except for application software and AppleCare), Apple shouldn't have cheaped out and they should have provided 2 to 4 adapters in the box of the customer's choosing.   The price of four adapters/cables is as much as a cheap PC.   

    And then my cost of ownership goes up because I can't replace the battery, expand memory or replace the SSD myself.   Or, if I Iive with a 256GB SSD, I've got to get a ton of external storage for pro-level photos and video and live with the hassle of not having every file with me when I'm out of the home/office.  

    This is another example of Apple labeling something "pro" and then not understanding the workflow of their pro customers.   They did that with FinalCutPro and they did it when they moved away from the tower configuration of the MacPro.  

    Every time Apple switches ports, they tell the market how their new choices are the greatest and how they want both manufacturers and consumers to commit to that port.  Then after a few years, they change their minds and they move on to something else.   Did they really need to drop Mag-safe?  What about all the people who bought extra power supplies to keep at home/office, etc.?   HDMI is ubiquitous on TVs and receivers and the cables have become inexpensive, but now I've got to buy an adapter that costs ten times what the cable cost?

    What was Apple's rationale for going solely to USB-C?   Was it because they truly think this port is the future and that the accessory market will fully move to that port and that it provides technological advantages?   Or was it really because of Ive's anal-obsessiveness over thinness and not wanting to look at different sized/shaped ports on the side of the machine?   What drives me crazy is that Apple wants the machine to have this superior industrial design so that it looks great in photos and in ads, but they have no problem with users having to stick a bunch of dongles and adapters on the thing.   It's the same with the iPhone and the obsession with thinness, but then we have to put it in a case because it can't survive a fall.   So few are really seeing and feeling the thinness anyway.  Sometimes I think people at Apple don't actually use the products they produce in the real world. 

    So, IMO, criticism is warranted.   If Apple wants my money, they're going to have to do a bit better.   I hate using PCs at work, but I'm not spending $4K to $5K on my next computer and I don't want to feel like I have less than what I have today.  So as much as I hate Windows, my next laptop might actually be a Windows machine.  And I've been an Apple customer for 35 years. 
    I fully agree with this assessment. Ive needs some kind of therapy. This obsession with thinness and lightness has led to too many compromises. Prices went up with retina Macs and up again with these models. They are now literally out of the reach of many and severely compromised by being non-upgradeable and ultra expensive to repair. Currency fluctuations have just worsened an already bad situation. And let's not forget the foolish who never backup. If one of these models goes belly up it will be a lot of hassle getting the data out of the machine.

    The iPhone 6 and 7 have got to be the most slippery phones I've ever held. That's bad design. it doesn't matter how good it looks on the ads. If you absolutely need a case just to be able to hold the phone safely, something is wrong. I've never understood the hideous white dongles either. Completely overstated and so tacky. Good for an iBook but nothing else.

    I haven't had a chance to use the new keyboard but I think I won't like it. Was it necessary? Nope, but we got it because someone just had to shave off a couple of mm from somewhere.

    The future? I already see it. One slab of glass sitting over the body of the laptop. No physical keys of any kind. Just a touchscreen with force touch and 'virtual' trackpad included.
    You do a disservice to @zoetmb post by agreeing with him because yours is simply retard.

    For the bold part, why is that a bad thing? You just hate for hate sake.
    Today, 'Glass' keyboards are a compromise. If you type, very few people would choose to use one full time. That's why people buy external keyboards for iPad. Few people, now and in the near term future, would like a slab of.Glass on their laptops. But I'm sure it's coming.

    'Retard'? That's so constructive. Believe me I can defend all of my opinions perfectly well. If you don't share my opinion, it really isn't an issue for me. Can you defend pre-judging me? 'Hate' for the sake of 'hate'? How could you have even the slightest idea of what I think on that level? 
    duervo
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