Every time Apple announces a product I'm interested in they find a way to spoil my excitement -- like, "Yay, the new mini has decent graphics! But they no longer offer the quad-core CPU I want." Or "Yay, the new Airs use SSD storage! But only up to 512GB and I can't add more."
I haven't yet found what the joy-killer will be on the latest MacBook Pro, but based on my past I figured there has to be SOMETHING. With all the talk about the keyboard, I thought that might be it. So tonight I popped into the Apple Store to try it out on the F-key 13".
I LOVE it! It feels great! No wiggle, enough travel to provide tactile feedback, and nice big keys.
Now I'm starting to worry that I must have missed something because I always find something to hate and it's so unlike me to sound like a gushing fanboy!
I agree, the keyboard is an instant revelation. This is how a keyboard is meant to feel. No more effort or travel than necessary, just enough click for feedback. I think they finally got it right.
Keyboards are a very personal thing. Some people will love this keyboard, but that doesn't mean that the people who hate it and say they can't use it are just being difficult. They may legitimately hate the keyboard and not be able to work with it.
Personally, I like the new keyboard. I like all types of keyboards, I learned to type on an Olivetti mechanical typewriter, and there's something about the feel of proper typewriter keys that no keyboard less than about $700 (for a full conversion of a mechanical typewriter) can replace. That said, though. I think I find typing on lighter keyboards easier, and from the limited testing I've done this new one works fine. I've contrasted it with the MacBook 12" sitting right next to it in the Apple Store, and it feels better, although I never really had a problem with that one, either.
I am actually constantly surprised by how nice Apple keyboards are. Every time they do a major change to the keyboard, I'm apprehensive, probably mostly due to hearing other people saying how they can't use it, but when I actually try it, I don't seem to have the same problems. Maybe I'm just weird.
Anyway, my basic approach is that if you don't like the keyboard, fine. That's you. Other people might, or at least not see it as a showstopper. Yelling at each other that "I'm right, you're wrong!" gets us nowhere. If enough people don't like the keyboard, maybe they'll change it, but if it continues to sell in these numbers, I don't think that's terribly likely.
I hit the nail on the head when I said you were unable or unwilling to contextualise my words. I'm not sure which of the two it is but it is very much the case.
It's not that I'm unwilling it's that the context you claim to be there isn't. You are claiming opinion as fact. Such as the majority of folks will hate the new keyboard. Or Pros don't buy computers because of feel.
Just some points. Linus had a G5 too (for the pro work). Last time I heard, Linus wasn't really doing much programming/compiling. I'm talking three or four years ago. I read one interview where he said he was more of a manager than anything else. Checking code and trying to point the kernel in the direction he wanted.
Linus continues to compile code as that's part of checking code. How much actual kernel programming he does day to day is probably less than before. The fact that he has a desktop is the point. Pros with heavy computational needs have desktops. If you need 32-64GB of RAM then you buy a desktop or a desktop replacement.
The 15" MBP has never been a desktop replacement laptop.
As we have mentioned already, the word 'dongle' in the context of this thread means 'adapter'. Roku, Chromecast etc are not dongles in this context. Not by a very long shot.
Then use the word adapter AND the Wii HDMI adapter certainly qualifies. Most HDTV manufacturers only include HDMI inputs these days. If you have something else you need an adapter.
I am not seeing the love you profess for the new keyboard shared in reviews of this model.
It's in the reviews of the Macbook. Many folks like that keyboard and the MBP keyboard is the next revision of the Macbook keyboard released earlier.
So your assertion that it's necessarily a step back is untrue.
17"'MBP was a desktop replacement. so was the 15" MBP. So much so that the 17" was discontinued. I said 'sweet spot on many levels' and one of them was size and weight.
The 15" MBP has been a marginal desktop replacement because of mobile GPU and storage limitations. Most desktop replacement laptops are 17" for a reason.
For most pros the MBA is a secondary machine
I said:
"Most, if not all, users value small and light. That isn't the issue. The issue is when small and light leads to unnecessary compromises. especially when these machines were already small and light enough for those ."
You replied:
"No, they were not small and light enough for many pro users. Or else they would not be buying MB and MBAs. Like Linus did."
You seem to be lost on this, mixing Apple's and oranges. I don't know why you are talking about MB and MBA, much less connecting it with years old events.
The point is that you are trying to say that the MBP was already thin and light enough for Pros. This is untrue as in the past they have been forced to buy less powerful MBA and MBs to get machines that are light enough for them for professional mobile use. The lighter and smaller Apple can make the MBP the better for these pro users.
Linus is an easily recognized example of a pro that values thin and light in a laptop for pro use. If you follow video then you would know that many pros there use MBA/MB on the go because the MBP is big and heavy.
Your assertion that "all pros were happy with the MBP size and weight" is false. "Compromises" to get the MBP to a form factor that they are happy with are not "unnecessary". Whether they use the MBP as their primary machine is immaterial. It is equally fair to argue that pros that don't do mobile work should get an iMac as their primary machine instead of whining about a MBP still being limited to 16GB.
I hit the nail on the head when I said you were unable or unwilling to contextualise my words. I'm not sure which of the two it is but it is very much the case.
It's not that I'm unwilling it's that the context you claim to be there isn't. You are claiming opinion as fact. Such as the majority of folks will hate the new keyboard. Or Pros don't buy computers because of feel.
Just some points. Linus had a G5 too (for the pro work). Last time I heard, Linus wasn't really doing much programming/compiling. I'm talking three or four years ago. I read one interview where he said he was more of a manager than anything else. Checking code and trying to point the kernel in the direction he wanted.
Linus continues to compile code as that's part of checking code. How much actual kernel programming he does day to day is probably less than before. The fact that he has a desktop is the point. Pros with heavy computational needs have desktops. If you need 32-64GB of RAM then you buy a desktop or a desktop replacement.
The 15" MBP has never been a desktop replacement laptop.
As we have mentioned already, the word 'dongle' in the context of this thread means 'adapter'. Roku, Chromecast etc are not dongles in this context. Not by a very long shot.
Then use the word adapter AND the Wii HDMI adapter certainly qualifies. Most HDTV manufacturers only include HDMI inputs these days. If you have something else you need an adapter.
I am not seeing the love you profess for the new keyboard shared in reviews of this model.
It's in the reviews of the Macbook. Many folks like that keyboard and the MBP keyboard is the next revision of the Macbook keyboard released earlier.
So your assertion that it's necessarily a step back is untrue.
17"'MBP was a desktop replacement. so was the 15" MBP. So much so that the 17" was discontinued. I said 'sweet spot on many levels' and one of them was size and weight.
The 15" MBP has been a marginal desktop replacement because of mobile GPU and storage limitations. Most desktop replacement laptops are 17" for a reason.
For most pros the MBA is a secondary machine
I said:
"Most, if not all, users value small and light. That isn't the issue. The issue is when small and light leads to unnecessary compromises. especially when these machines were already small and light enough for those ."
You replied:
"No, they were not small and light enough for many pro users. Or else they would not be buying MB and MBAs. Like Linus did."
You seem to be lost on this, mixing Apple's and oranges. I don't know why you are talking about MB and MBA, much less connecting it with years old events.
The point is that you are trying to say that the MBP was already thin and light enough for Pros. This is untrue as in the past they have been forced to buy less powerful MBA and MBs to get machines that are light enough for them for professional mobile use. The lighter and smaller Apple can make the MBP the better for these pro users.
Linus is an easily recognized example of a pro that values thin and light in a laptop for pro use. If you follow video then you would know that many pros there use MBA/MB on the go because the MBP is big and heavy.
Your assertion that "all pros were happy with the MBP size and weight" is false. "Compromises" to get the MBP to a form factor that they are happy with are not "unnecessary". Whether they use the MBP as their primary machine is immaterial. It is equally fair to argue that pros that don't do mobile work should get an iMac as their primary machine instead of whining about a MBP still being limited to 16GB.
You're at it again! '...the majority of users will hate the new new keyboard'? You are trying to put words into my mouth. I said most users would prefer the old one, not that they would hate it. Pros don't buy computers because of feel. Look at the 'checkpoints' on the list of any pro users looking for a new laptop. Many items appear before 'feel'. Of course, with that, you are just trying to muddy things.
In the comment on Linus, the point was he wasn't compiling all that much and he made that point specifically in the interview. I didn't include it because I don't have a link to that interview. At the time he was somewhat angry with proposals for the kernel and submissions that weren't to his liking. He was checking the code and rejecting a lot of it.
I am not claiming 'opinion as fact'. I am mixing both. There is opinion. There is fact. You should be able to discern when what I say is my opinion and when it isn't. I'm definitely not going to fill my posts with' IMO'. But as long as you can muddy things you're happy, I suppose.
I have used both the word adapter and dongle. They are synonyms. I use dongle more because that is the term people are using more. The Wii is a games console, not a video device. When it was designed, it was designed with cheap universal connectivity. And where on earth did you get the idea that most HDTV manufacturers only include HDMI these days? You forget USB, Ethernet, card slots, various audio options etc. In the higher end, as I said before, manufacturers can include a breakout box. Just one example: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ue55ks9000-201603244256.htm . Now, if only Apple had done something similar - and included it in the box.
Look at the price. Look at the design. Premium. Both the TV and the breakout box. Fanless too! Apple's take is you have to buy tacky white plastic dongles because in its attempt to future proof you, it kicks out the present. Yes. The whole thing was completely unnecessary as nobody asked for or needed a thinner machine if it meant compromises. let me repeat that. Unnecessary. It's not that people don't like thin or light.
As for the keyboard I have yet to see anyone gushing over the change (except for some people here). Most reviews I've read so far make a point of saying you have to get used to it. Having to get used to something is by definition a compromise because the thing was only designed in the first place to get around the issue of the machine being too thin to accommodate a keyboard that people are happy with. Let me say that a different way. If they hadn't gone thin, I'm sure they wouldn't have changed the keyboard's feel or response as it wouldn't have been necessary.
"The 15" MBP has been a marginal desktop replacement because of mobile GPU and storage limitations. Most desktop replacement laptops are 17" for a reason."
You mean a Desktop like the iMac for example? Or the Mini? Both so compromised that they start with low end laptop class graphics. The iMac so thermally challenged that it is hard to get a true desktop GPU in there without it overcooking itself slowly. Even the 'thick' iMacs had thermal design issues. Making them thinner just led to even more compromises. The 17" MBP was such a runaway success that it was discontinued. "Most replacement laptops are 17" for a reason". Not in the Apple world they aren't because they simply don't exist. In the Apple world the 15" MBP is the desktop replacement.
"The point is that you are trying to say that the MBP was already thin and light enough for Pros. This is untrue as in the past they have been forced to buy less powerful MBA and MBs to get machines that are light enough for them for professional mobile use. The lighter and smaller Apple can make the MBP the better for these pro users."
No. And you said I was passing off opinion as fact! I have told you already. You don't agree with me. That is OK. The tradeoff on size and weight has always existed and exists now. MBA and MB are mainly secondary machines for pros. They serve a purpose but for heavy lifting, pros need more. If they didn't they'd be snapping up MBs as their only machines. Small and light is fine but NOT when it means you have to make so many compromises.
How many complaints have you heard about the previous MBPs being too heavy or big? A big zero? A chorus of complaints all over the web about how damn bulky they are? Nope. Nothing. MBP= Big. Clunky? No. Nothing of the sort. On the other hand, we have heard a big chorus of complaints about these new machines going too far on thinness, but please try to put this into context. They are not complaints for the sake of the MBP being thin. They are complaints because the thinness led to compromises. For many it was the last straw as this almighty backlash has shown.
Comments
Keyboards are a very personal thing. Some people will love this keyboard, but that doesn't mean that the people who hate it and say they can't use it are just being difficult. They may legitimately hate the keyboard and not be able to work with it.
Personally, I like the new keyboard. I like all types of keyboards, I learned to type on an Olivetti mechanical typewriter, and there's something about the feel of proper typewriter keys that no keyboard less than about $700 (for a full conversion of a mechanical typewriter) can replace. That said, though. I think I find typing on lighter keyboards easier, and from the limited testing I've done this new one works fine. I've contrasted it with the MacBook 12" sitting right next to it in the Apple Store, and it feels better, although I never really had a problem with that one, either.
I am actually constantly surprised by how nice Apple keyboards are. Every time they do a major change to the keyboard, I'm apprehensive, probably mostly due to hearing other people saying how they can't use it, but when I actually try it, I don't seem to have the same problems. Maybe I'm just weird.
Anyway, my basic approach is that if you don't like the keyboard, fine. That's you. Other people might, or at least not see it as a showstopper. Yelling at each other that "I'm right, you're wrong!" gets us nowhere. If enough people don't like the keyboard, maybe they'll change it, but if it continues to sell in these numbers, I don't think that's terribly likely.
It's not that I'm unwilling it's that the context you claim to be there isn't. You are claiming opinion as fact. Such as the majority of folks will hate the new keyboard. Or Pros don't buy computers because of feel.
Linus continues to compile code as that's part of checking code. How much actual kernel programming he does day to day is probably less than before. The fact that he has a desktop is the point. Pros with heavy computational needs have desktops. If you need 32-64GB of RAM then you buy a desktop or a desktop replacement.
The 15" MBP has never been a desktop replacement laptop.
Then use the word adapter AND the Wii HDMI adapter certainly qualifies. Most HDTV manufacturers only include HDMI inputs these days. If you have something else you need an adapter.
It's in the reviews of the Macbook. Many folks like that keyboard and the MBP keyboard is the next revision of the Macbook keyboard released earlier.
So your assertion that it's necessarily a step back is untrue.
The 15" MBP has been a marginal desktop replacement because of mobile GPU and storage limitations. Most desktop replacement laptops are 17" for a reason.
The point is that you are trying to say that the MBP was already thin and light enough for Pros. This is untrue as in the past they have been forced to buy less powerful MBA and MBs to get machines that are light enough for them for professional mobile use. The lighter and smaller Apple can make the MBP the better for these pro users.
Linus is an easily recognized example of a pro that values thin and light in a laptop for pro use. If you follow video then you would know that many pros there use MBA/MB on the go because the MBP is big and heavy.
Your assertion that "all pros were happy with the MBP size and weight" is false. "Compromises" to get the MBP to a form factor that they are happy with are not "unnecessary". Whether they use the MBP as their primary machine is immaterial. It is equally fair to argue that pros that don't do mobile work should get an iMac as their primary machine instead of whining about a MBP still being limited to 16GB.
In the comment on Linus, the point was he wasn't compiling all that much and he made that point specifically in the interview. I didn't include it because I don't have a link to that interview. At the time he was somewhat angry with proposals for the kernel and submissions that weren't to his liking. He was checking the code and rejecting a lot of it.
I am not claiming 'opinion as fact'. I am mixing both. There is opinion. There is fact. You should be able to discern when what I say is my opinion and when it isn't. I'm definitely not going to fill my posts with' IMO'. But as long as you can muddy things you're happy, I suppose.
I have used both the word adapter and dongle. They are synonyms. I use dongle more because that is the term people are using more. The Wii is a games console, not a video device. When it was designed, it was designed with cheap universal connectivity. And where on earth did you get the idea that most HDTV manufacturers only include HDMI these days? You forget USB, Ethernet, card slots, various audio options etc. In the higher end, as I said before, manufacturers can include a breakout box. Just one example: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ue55ks9000-201603244256.htm . Now, if only Apple had done something similar - and included it in the box.
Look at the price. Look at the design. Premium. Both the TV and the breakout box. Fanless too! Apple's take is you have to buy tacky white plastic dongles because in its attempt to future proof you, it kicks out the present. Yes. The whole thing was completely unnecessary as nobody asked for or needed a thinner machine if it meant compromises. let me repeat that. Unnecessary. It's not that people don't like thin or light.
As for the keyboard I have yet to see anyone gushing over the change (except for some people here). Most reviews I've read so far make a point of saying you have to get used to it. Having to get used to something is by definition a compromise because the thing was only designed in the first place to get around the issue of the machine being too thin to accommodate a keyboard that people are happy with. Let me say that a different way. If they hadn't gone thin, I'm sure they wouldn't have changed the keyboard's feel or response as it wouldn't have been necessary.
"The 15" MBP has been a marginal desktop replacement because of mobile GPU and storage limitations. Most desktop replacement laptops are 17" for a reason."
You mean a Desktop like the iMac for example? Or the Mini? Both so compromised that they start with low end laptop class graphics. The iMac so thermally challenged that it is hard to get a true desktop GPU in there without it overcooking itself slowly. Even the 'thick' iMacs had thermal design issues. Making them thinner just led to even more compromises. The 17" MBP was such a runaway success that it was discontinued. "Most replacement laptops are 17" for a reason". Not in the Apple world they aren't because they simply don't exist. In the Apple world the 15" MBP is the desktop replacement.
"The point is that you are trying to say that the MBP was already thin and light enough for Pros. This is untrue as in the past they have been forced to buy less powerful MBA and MBs to get machines that are light enough for them for professional mobile use. The lighter and smaller Apple can make the MBP the better for these pro users."
No. And you said I was passing off opinion as fact! I have told you already. You don't agree with me. That is OK. The tradeoff on size and weight has always existed and exists now. MBA and MB are mainly secondary machines for pros. They serve a purpose but for heavy lifting, pros need more. If they didn't they'd be snapping up MBs as their only machines. Small and light is fine but NOT when it means you have to make so many compromises.
How many complaints have you heard about the previous MBPs being too heavy or big? A big zero? A chorus of complaints all over the web about how damn bulky they are? Nope. Nothing. MBP= Big. Clunky? No. Nothing of the sort. On the other hand, we have heard a big chorus of complaints about these new machines going too far on thinness, but please try to put this into context. They are not complaints for the sake of the MBP being thin. They are complaints because the thinness led to compromises. For many it was the last straw as this almighty backlash has shown.