Apple has 'great desktops' on Mac roadmap, CEO Tim Cook says

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  • Reply 81 of 217
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 4,698member
    The same tired discussion always takes place here and just continues to be recycled.

    MacBooks are not desktops.  Let it go.  The fact that they can achieve desktop-like performance does not negate the fact that they are STILL laptops.  There are sacrifices to be made for the sake of mobility.  Carrying a "bagful of dongles" is no one's problem but your own.  It's certainly not Apple's problem.  You have dongles?  Get a dock, or better yet, buy an external monitor that has all the ports in the back similar to Apple's (now defunct) TB monitors... in the end, it's a mobile machine.  

    It just amazes me how many people complain that they want desktop versatility in a laptop.  Enough with it.  There will always be compromises.  I'm more than happy that Apple does not listen to people on this forum that complains about what will no be.
    macplusplusSolibkkcanuckwatto_cobramacxpressbrucemcpatchythepirateai46
  • Reply 82 of 217
    stimpy said:
    Robin nailed it above. Buying a "new" iMac 21.5 gets you 2015 hardware, and slow notebook hard drive. For Fusion offerings a SSD "hybrid" HD where there is less than 1/5th the SSD portion of the faster 2013 models. You have to buy the middle model and upgrade it for another $100 to get the speed of a base 2013 model. Its frustrating to help my customers with these options. All this while my PC compresses video 3.5 times faster than an iMac and cost $900.
    Compression speed is adjustable. You compress faster, get a larger file, compress slower, you get a smaller file. Compress more and more, all the darker areas in your video will shift to pitch black and you'll screw up the subtle tonal balance of your video. Mastering H.264 settings is not for mere mortals.

    I'm assuming Stimpy is using the same settings on both machines.
    He compares "his" PC to "any" iMac, so "Settings" is already irrelevant.
    Ah, you're right. I thought he was referring to a specific machine. Noted and withdrawn.
  • Reply 83 of 217
    nht said:
    stimpy said:
     I've seen it so many times and I have 8 adapters for my current stuff and have to go buy 6 more for USB-C. Losing a floppy is brave, making stuff where your two current products MBP an iPhone dont plug together with the out of the box items is just weird.
    Really?  6 more adapters?  Name them.  I bet there is a USB-C hub that replaces them with 1 unit.
    USB-C to TB,Ethernet,DVI,VGA,FW800, oh yeah and USB3. They are all in my bag along with more
    baconstangelijahgdysamoria
  • Reply 84 of 217
    stimpy said:
    Robin nailed it above. Buying a "new" iMac 21.5 gets you 2015 hardware, and slow notebook hard drive. For Fusion offerings a SSD "hybrid" HD where there is less than 1/5th the SSD portion of the faster 2013 models. You have to buy the middle model and upgrade it for another $100 to get the speed of a base 2013 model. Its frustrating to help my customers with these options. All this while my PC compresses video 3.5 times faster than an iMac and cost $900.
    Compression speed is adjustable. You compress faster, get a larger file, compress slower, you get a smaller file. Compress more and more, all the darker areas in your video will shift to pitch black and you'll screw up the subtle tonal balance of your video. Mastering H.264 settings is not for mere mortals.

    I'm assuming Stimpy is using the same settings on both machines.
    He compares "his" PC to "any" iMac, so "Settings" is already irrelevant.
    Not really this PC aint running windows :) and it smokes a 2013 Mac Pro. Settings are certainly not irrelevant. Same programs and well you should be able to figure it out. Off the shelf 2015-16 parts no where to be found in my Macs
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 85 of 217
    Roadmap or pipeline?

    Sorry guys I did not see a mention of desktops in the pipeline.  Just in the roadmap.  Tim says they can't talk about macs? I totally respect that.  Meanwhle there are some macs I can't spend about: which ones? All of them.  Tim Cook, get back to me when all the new macs are off the Jony Ive table and ON the Apple Store. 
    elijahgdysamoria
  • Reply 86 of 217
    stimpy said:
    nht said:
    stimpy said:
     I've seen it so many times and I have 8 adapters for my current stuff and have to go buy 6 more for USB-C. Losing a floppy is brave, making stuff where your two current products MBP an iPhone dont plug together with the out of the box items is just weird.
    Really?  6 more adapters?  Name them.  I bet there is a USB-C hub that replaces them with 1 unit.
    USB-C to TB,Ethernet,DVI,VGA,FW800, oh yeah and USB3. They are all in my bag along with more
    FW800 was last used in an Apple computer maybe 6+ years ago (2012 omitted it).... and you still are carrying around a FW800 dongle.... sounds like you just like dongles for the heck of it....
    watto_cobraRayz2016
  • Reply 87 of 217
    zoetmb said:
    scottw2 said:
    Whereas laptop specs are confined by form factor restrictions, desktops are defined by high performance processors, large screens, ample storage and "a greater variety of I/O."

    Show us you meant what you said, Tim. The iMac is a bunch of mobile components glued behind a big screen. The Mac Mini is un-upgradable box of mobile hardware. The "trashcan" Mac Pro looks neat until you need to connect external accessories typically required of their workloads. You need breakout boxes, cables, external everything. In a senses, the dongle mess that is the 2016 MBP starts with the trashcan.

    Give Jony a challenge to design computers that: (1) upgradable, (2) has wide selection of replacement parts, (3) has ports that people actually need, (4) have regular updates and (5) look good, in that order. He only cares about thinness these days.


    How do you figure Ive only cares about thinness (ignoring for the moment that there's an entire team who designs these things)? Especially since he's gone on record many times to state that design is not just about how a thing looks, but how it works...
    Come on!  I think it's pretty damn obvious that for the last X years, Apple has been designing to form over function.  

    So that's why the iPhone 6 and 6S (and the Plus variants) had those universally panned antenna lines running across the back right? Because they are so "form" pleasing?

    That's why the Apple Watch Series 2 is thicker than the first Apple Watch right? Because they felt it is aesthetically more pleasing?


    Soliwatto_cobrabrucemc
  • Reply 88 of 217
    volcan said:
    StrangeDays said:

    I've already mentioned it but as a pro software developer I certainly don't need those ports on my portable. My portable needs a good keyboard, a good screen, faster storage, and wifi. Tho this design is perfect for my use case, and putting in all those ports, with the sacrifices and tradeoffs any hardware design incurs, would be unfavorable.
    I find it odd that a software developer would depend on a portable device as their main computer. I do software development as well and I use an iMac 5k and a Mac Pro. For me using my MBP is the worst case scenario when I'm on the road and I do need a bag full of dongles because I don't want to leave home without them.

    Nothing strange about it. A lot of people who develop software on Visual Studio use laptops as the main computer with remote GIT repositories.
    Soli
  • Reply 89 of 217
    SoliSoli Posts: 9,258member
    bkkcanuck said:
    stimpy said:
    nht said:
    stimpy said:
     I've seen it so many times and I have 8 adapters for my current stuff and have to go buy 6 more for USB-C. Losing a floppy is brave, making stuff where your two current products MBP an iPhone dont plug together with the out of the box items is just weird.
    Really?  6 more adapters?  Name them.  I bet there is a USB-C hub that replaces them with 1 unit.
    USB-C to TB,Ethernet,DVI,VGA,FW800, oh yeah and USB3. They are all in my bag along with more
    FW800 was last used in an Apple computer maybe 6+ years ago (2012 omitted it).... and you still are carrying around a FW800 dongle.... sounds like you just like dongles for the heck of it....
    And both TB and USB 3.0 protocols work over USB-C. And then there's his requirement for both DVI and VGA adapters. If anything his anti-USB-C argument is actually a case  as to why it's such a wonderful advancement.
    edited December 2016 watto_cobramacxpressbrucemcai46dysamoria
  • Reply 90 of 217

    Those who keep on blaming Intel for Apple's excuses, I have two words for you: Surface Studio
    What are the sales figures of the Studio? That's the real indicator of success, is it not? 

    Depends on how you define "success" but that's a different discussion. It doesn't have to sell in massive numbers for the point to be valid: that it is possible to develop, advance and improve computers without a CPU update.

    Like how Apple just did with the MBP this year and the 5K iMac last year, right?
    watto_cobraelijahgbrucemcai46
  • Reply 91 of 217
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,805member
    Apple boxed themselves into this corner, so I don't feel sorry for them.

    We all know that Intel's delays have adversely affected Apple's timelines. But if Apple had taken their own advice and 'ship it when it's ready', they would have gotten less flack and Cook wouldn't have to be sending out memos he knows will be leaked to placate Apple's staff and customers.

    Thunderbolt 3 has been shipping in computers for a year. SSDs have continued to fall in price. If the current iMac had been bumped six months ago with the latest IO ports and all Fusion drives, everybody would be on Intel's case instead of pressuring Apple.
    watto_cobraelijahgai46dysamoria
  • Reply 92 of 217
    Hello Zen and Vega.
    You really think AMD Zen has performance levels to replace Intel in Apple's Mac lineup?

    Yes it has already been shown to match the i7 6900K and Vega is a bigger GPGPU than the 1080.
    elijahg
  • Reply 93 of 217
    eriamjh said:
    No 5K display from Apple tells me that the iMac 5K will NEVER support target display mode because it's just too costly to implement.  

    No Mac Pro updates in 3 years possibly indicates a new form factor with better storage due to the complaints of the small size and its many lightning ports.  

    No new Mac Mini is because Apple just doesn't really care about it much and prefers to sell more expensive machines.


    All of those things aside, at least give us a processor or memory speed update once a year!


    I doubt they'll be introducing a new form factor for the Mac Pro due to the cost to develop the current trash can design.  Also, Apple said something along the lines of this being the future of the Mac Pro for like 10 years during the Keynote.
    Personally I don't mind the form factor, but Apple crippled the machine in many ways.
    If they had chosen to put a couple of NVIDIA cards in there and shipped it with a proper amount of internal storage for example.  Also I think they probably undersized the power supply and thermals by about 100W or so.
    I'm convinced Apple thinks it knows better than its customers and is often seen pushing its own design or API agendas.  The fact is, a lot of scientists rely on CUDA for existing applications and never looked twice at the Mac Pro but would be happy to spend thousands on premium Tesla cards etc.
    The reason these machines are not being updated is because they are not selling.
    I'm quite certain Apple has internal volume targets to hit to recoup costs before embarking on model upgrades.  So we get stuck in a cycle where Apple doesn't give customers what they want/need, then pulls resources away from dying products.
    How many people do you know who own a trash can?  For me, none.  But I know quite a few who have owned previous generation Mac Pro's...
    edited December 2016 ai46dysamoria
  • Reply 94 of 217
    Tim has been talking about these never to appear amazing pipelines for years. It's very discouraging to hear it's not even in the pipeline and that they are only at road map stage. 

    To those blaming Intel. Intel has updated the XeonE5 two times after the 2013 MacPro. It currently maxes out at 22 cores. Graphics cards have also been updated several times. USB C has been out for a while. DDR4 Ram has been out for a while.  Larger and different types of SSD are also available. 

    I'm not sure how Dell and HP are able to upgrade their work stations yearly with these type of improvements yet when it comes to Apple's 3 year old machine, it's intels fault. 
    elijahgdysamoria
  • Reply 95 of 217
    altivec88 said:
    Tim has been talking about these never to appear amazing pipelines for years. It's very discouraging to hear it's not even in the pipeline and that they are only at road map stage. 

    Roadmap is anything that is currently not shipping.  Pipeline is something that is being manufactured but not shipped (with Macs that probably is on the order of less than a month from shipment).  Since the current thought is that there will be a Mac Event in maybe May at the latest -- the distinction is your own bias trying to make sense by parsing a single word.
    Soli
  • Reply 96 of 217
    netroxnetrox Posts: 780member
    I can't imagine "desktop" computers anymore for Apple. Every generation of Macs become less and less upgradable. Even lower entry iMacs cannot be upgraded with RAM. 

    We need REAL desktop computer that is capable of upgrades with RAM, SSD, and GPU. That's not much to ask, is it?!?! 

    I have Mac mini, iMac 27" Retina, MacBook Air, and now MacBook Pro. I had to spend more upfront just to have extra RAM and SSD. It's ridiculous. If Apple just let them upgrade at a later date, it would have sold a GREAT deal more. But no... apple chose the approach where consumers must pay more upfront to have more RAM or storage. 

    Apple's going the wrong direction. I am a huge fan of Apple and I love the Mac. I love the iOS devices (also own few iPhones and iPads). 

    But I feel that Apple is ignoring the untapped market and that is those who want Macs but can't afford simply due to premium prices. 

    Video gaming is out. Many video game addicts will NOT think of having a Mac. And that's understandable, I wouldn't either. 

    The Mac Pro, while elegant in design in several respects, is still not upgradable with GPU or SSD which defeats the purpose of a workstation PC. While Thunderbolt 2 provides enough bandwidth, some people would rather just have it all on internal drives. The goal is to hide all the cables and dongles and external devices as much as possible. 

    So, Tim Cook, I don't have faith that our desktop computers will ever be as good as the old Macs. Prove me wrong. 




    aussiepaulmacplusplusRayz2016elijahgdysamoria
  • Reply 97 of 217
    "Great desktops"? I'm getting very skeptical about that. Apple is flirting with losing professional and creative users whose influence goes far beyond direct sales to them. The Pro and its "can't innovate, my ass" intro has been a complete letdown. If that's the kind of thing Cook has in mind, Apple might just as well cede this market to others and move desktop employees to the car.

    My wife's iMac from 2010 needed replacement. I waited and waited for an Xmas update. When I gave up and bought the latest and greatest last month it was shown to be an October 2015 model in the About This Mac menu. Pathetic. Apple, the new Phone Company. 
    You really want to live in a world, where something as old as one year is "pathetic"? Poor world. Poor you.
    ai46dysamoria
  • Reply 98 of 217
    welshdogwelshdog Posts: 1,694member
    I know this sort of thing goes against the Apple way, but they really need to go out and talk to people about what they need in a desktop or tower computer.  With the old Mac Pros they had a computer that was dominant in video post proudction (with FCP) and in graphic design.  Then they started ignoring that segment of their business and we went years with no update.  This was under Jobs BTW.  Maybe Steve had decided that workhorse computers didn't fit the Apple future, but Steve is gone and I think this is one example of where he was wrong.  It's not a big market, but it is one that is pretty steady.  It might even be one that could grow if they committed to it with engineering and marketing resources.  In the film and video effects world Apple now has practically zero presence because they don't make machines that kare comparable with the powerful HP and Boxx hardware that is used in this industry.  Boxx has built it's entire business around making super fast tower computers.  I see no reason why Apple couldn't do the same with their superior OS, but again only if they had the willingness to do so.  A lot of people would say "take my money" if Apple released a bleeding edge tower computer.  A lot.
    aussiepaulelijahgai46dysamoria
  • Reply 99 of 217
    welshdog said:
    I know this sort of thing goes against the Apple way, but they really need to go out and talk to people about what they need in a desktop or tower computer.  With the old Mac Pros they had a computer that was dominant in video post proudction (with FCP) and in graphic design.  Then they started ignoring that segment of their business and we went years with no update.  This was under Jobs BTW.  Maybe Steve had decided that workhorse computers didn't fit the Apple future, but Steve is gone and I think this is one example of where he was wrong.  It's not a big market, but it is one that is pretty steady.  It might even be one that could grow if they committed to it with engineering and marketing resources.  In the film and video effects world Apple now has practically zero presence because they don't make machines that kare comparable with the powerful HP and Boxx hardware that is used in this industry.  Boxx has built it's entire business around making super fast tower computers.  I see no reason why Apple couldn't do the same with their superior OS, but again only if they had the willingness to do so.  A lot of people would say "take my money" if Apple released a bleeding edge tower computer.  A lot.
    I have heard a lot about the cheese grater version of the Mac being far superior to the trashcan Mac as far as expandability.  I still have my Mac Pro 2008 (8 core) [with upgraded graphics] and I can tell you that it was less expandable than people seem to pretend.  You had a PCIe bus but no thunderbolt and USB-2.  First thing I did was put in 2x graphics cards.... which left 1 (yes 1 1 only) PCIe slot with lower bandwidth for anything else - in my case I put in a SAS controller (hobbled a bit by the fact that it PCIe bandwidth.... is less than what I could get from Thunderbolt).  Yes - I can put hard drives in it but however many they give you there will never be enough internally... and I know the PC market has been all about putting hard drives in the same case but .... that is not a great design either.  Hard drives are old mechanical beasts that whirl and vibrate and shake and give off lots of heat.... this is best dealt with in a case that is designed for that thing rather than in the same case as your computer.  I have 4 HD slots and 13 HDs.....  I could not give a crap about any new machine having slots for hard drives .... it would be a waste.  Yes, it would be useful to be able to upgrade the graphics.... but then if there are better options in the future and I had a Mac Pro from a few years ago.... guess what... I can just disconnect the hard drive array, mirror the SSD drives .... then sell it and buy a newer model with newer graphics capabilities (assuming an upgraded Mac Pro exists).... not really much of a hinderance give that Apple hardware retains better resell values than other companies... and there seems to always be someone out there willing to buy it.  Really with the way thunderbolt the way it is the only thing that really is useful for upgrading is the memory onboard.....  Trashcan is not that bad of a design....  However I would not be surprised if the new Mac Pro gets a new case again this year (maybe revert to a certain extent).  I get the feeling that the US manufacturing of the current Mac Pro had some issues, and given they have not "nudged" the specs....  I get the feeling they did not nudge them because there may be some issue with the current design and they felt that nudging it was not the best solution.... and there is a new design in the works.   They should have never moved the manufacturing back to the US :open_mouth: 

    brucemcdysamoria
  • Reply 100 of 217

    My wife's iMac from 2010 needed replacement. I waited and waited for an Xmas update. When I gave up and bought the latest and greatest last month it was shown to be an October 2015 model in the About This Mac menu. Pathetic. Apple, the new Phone Company. 
    As I see it, the huge performance improvements we used to see year on year coming out of Intel etc are things of the past.
    Intel are finding it harder and harder to get the same level of improvements we used to take for granted.
    Die shrinking is expensive and time consuming.
    I'm in the market for an iMac and to be honest, the 27in one is very tempting. I already have a 4K screen connected to my MBP which may indicate the area I'm interested in. CPU performance for me is not the top on my wishlist because I don't process video. I do have a photo library of some 120,000 images that is on a USB-3 connected Drobo at the moment.
    Obviously, you wife has a workflow that needs something in tech terms that is not available. Would you care to share exactly what it is so that we can share your mysery?

    watto_cobra
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