Third iPhone battery lawsuit says Apple used slowdowns to avoid fixing defects

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  • Reply 61 of 130

    k2kw said:
    nethan9 said:
    I don't buy this story. Apple is trying to force you to buy to a new iPhone, each time it releases new one. I's called planned obsolescence.
    Maybe it was purposeful unplanned obsolescence.    Either Way looks real bad.   I expect there to be an FEATURE/EDITORIAL this weekend from DED saying what apple did was the absolute best thing and of course better than android especially Samsung.
    Yes, what Apple did was reasonable - extend the lifespan of a device with an expired, used up battery. 

    only haters have a problem with it. 
    watto_cobraJFC_PA
  • Reply 62 of 130
    This is typical of the ambulance chasing lawyers. Let’s break this down your seeking damages because your $600 dollar phone was causing you problems. So your best coarse of action is to replace it with a $1,000 phone. Question 1. Was there a comparable phone in the $600 range that could have replaced this? Question 2. You Referenced  a prior iPhone 6S had problems. What phone were you using/replacing when you voluntarily purchased the  IphoneX?  Question 3. Due you use the Apple manufactured charging cable?  My theory is this you had a iPhone 6S you used a charger you bought at the gas station and it weakened the battery. You then summonses that Apple owes you a new phone because the battery dies. They wouldn’t comply so you said screw it and switched ecosystems to android. Realized it sucks and got all gritty when the iphoneX came out and bought yourself the best phone ever produced. Now your parents are pissed because you haven’t payed rent in 6 months while you were saving up for the iphoneX. So to save face you hope on the perceived gravy train. Maybe. Or maybe I haven’t had enough coffee this morning but I don’t think there grounds here. Apple will settle and 7 people will get a free iphoneX and we will revisit this again when the iPhone ? Comes out 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 63 of 130
    Ratatoskr said:
    Apple went about fixing the issue the complete wrong way. If the root cause is the battery dying, they should replace the battery of your device. Forcing an involuntary performance hit that doesn't inform the user why their device is slowing down to compensate for the dying battery is a terrible solution to the problem.
    No it isn’t. 

    And why should Apple replace out of warranty, old, used up batteries for free? Does your auto maker give you free brake pads and drums and calipers for free? Free car batteries for years? Or do you perform maintenance on your car parts that get used? Why aren’t you complaining when your car battery is used up and fails to crank in the winter?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 64 of 130

    k2kw said:
    Ratatoskr said:
    Apple went about fixing the issue the complete wrong way. If the root cause is the battery dying, they should replace the battery of your device. Forcing an involuntary performance hit that doesn't inform the user why their device is slowing down to compensate for the dying battery is a terrible solution to the problem.
    Yes,  but they have a bean counter in Charge.
    Stupid comment. This is an engineering choice and has nothing to do with bottom line. Not preventing expired batteries from shutting down would drive more replacements so your entire point is a dead end. 
    Soliwatto_cobra
  • Reply 65 of 130

    k2kw said:
    mike54 said:
    nethan9 said:
    Really? I don't buy this story. Apple worrying about life of your battery. Yeah, right. Apple is trying to force you to buy to a new iPhone, each time it releases new one. I's called planned obsolescence. Fortunately for Apple, whole bunch of fanboys will spend over thousand dollars each year for a new iPhone. I've used Apple products for more years than most of you in this forum, but I don't like what I see, last couple years.
    I with you on this. It's astounding that even intelligent people are giving Apple a free pass here. eg I wrote a comment saying Apple gave no explanation, and someone retorts back saying they did. Well, Apple only mentioned it last week and that's because they were effectively forced to. In some people's eyes Apple can do wrong.
    The only way to send a message to Apple is to not buy their products and cancel their Services like Apple Music.

    To me this is a "used car salesman move on Apple's part"
    Jesus. Yes please, cancel your subscriptions, sell your iphone (for good coin), and stop posting about how much you hate Apple. Please. 

    But you won’t. 
    Soliwatto_cobra
  • Reply 66 of 130
    bshank said:
    larrya said:
    This is the one with legs.  Though the iPhone 6/6+ aren’t new, some recently purchased phones saw the slowdowns while the battery still tested “good” at the Apple store (based on comments on the subject here over the last couple of days).   A judge will decide based on the preponderance of evidence, which is:

    - a previously admitted battery flaw and replacement program
    - a previous admission that the shutdown problem grew to affect other models
    - a newly admitted slowdown algorithm that kicks in before the Genius Bar says the battery is eligible for replacement 
    - performance results that are half of the phone’s performance when new

    In this context it will be very difficult for Apple to claim their motivation was user experience, since it sucks anyway at half-speed. 



    The battery flaw was was on the 6s, not the 6
    According to Apple. 
  • Reply 67 of 130
    r2d2r2d2 Posts: 95member
    r2d2 said: The slow-down is very noticeable. To the point of frustration. If you have no knowledge of this subject maybe you shouldn't post comments.
    Pretty sure we all have as much knowledge on this subject as you.

    The slowdown is momentary at peak power draw, it is not constant. If your phone is constantly slow it has other problems -- such as being old but running a new OS. 
    That's the same line Apple was telling people who brought their phones in for inspection. Imagine that.
  • Reply 68 of 130

    k2kw said:
    nethan9 said:
    I don't buy this story. Apple is trying to force you to buy to a new iPhone, each time it releases new one. I's called planned obsolescence.
    Maybe it was purposeful unplanned obsolescence.    Either Way looks real bad.   I expect there to be an FEATURE/EDITORIAL this weekend from DED saying what apple did was the absolute best thing and of course better than android especially Samsung.
    Yes, what Apple did was reasonable - extend the lifespan of a device with an expired, used up battery. 

    only haters have a problem with it. 

    But they have been throttling devices that were either under warranty or an AppleCare contract.  With 11.2 they are adding the iPhone 7 to the throttling list and that phone is only slightly more than a year old.  Only devices fully depleted and charged more than once a day would exceed the stated 500 charge cycle battery lifespan.  These devices didn't have an expired, used up battery; they had a design flaw that prevented the phone from working as advertised under normal operating conditions.

    If they only throttled devices that failed internal testing and notified the customer the battery was bad then it would be fine.  What Apple has avoided with its lack of transparency is people with valid service agreements coming in with a battery failure and demanding a replacement under the terms of the contract.

    This issue isn't as black-and-white as some would like it to be.  To the extent Apple benefited by avoiding warranty claims on covered devices by artificially slowing them down to cover up a design flaw they need to be held accountable.
    r2d2muthuk_vanalingamsingularity
  • Reply 69 of 130
    Unfortunately, its would appear, on the surface, that this slowdown feature was originally designed to cover up battery defects in the 6 series of phone. That said, it makes sense to add it to the functions because batteries age and performance drops—but you should be advising the user or allow them to choose higher performance at the cost of battery life just like everyone does in laptop power management and in fact, Android devices allow you to do. 

    All that said, the situation reminds me of Honda's fix on their hybrid Civics that were experiencing shorter than desired battery life. Honda changed the ECU programming so that the gas engine ran more often to extend battery life. With the commensurate severe drop in gas mileage (by 10 MPG or more if I recollect correctly). Honda's action resulted in class action suits which they lost with some fees and at least one class opt-out suit in small claims court where Honda I believe was forced forced to buy back the car or at least provide a much more substantial award than the class action. <https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1072475_woman-wins-suit-against-honda-for-low-civic-hybrid-gas-mileage>;
    mike54
  • Reply 70 of 130
    entropysentropys Posts: 1,793member
    78Bandit said:

    k2kw said:
    nethan9 said:
    I don't buy this story. Apple is trying to force you to buy to a new iPhone, each time it releases new one. I's called planned obsolescence.
    Maybe it was purposeful unplanned obsolescence.    Either Way looks real bad.   I expect there to be an FEATURE/EDITORIAL this weekend from DED saying what apple did was the absolute best thing and of course better than android especially Samsung.
    Yes, what Apple did was reasonable - extend the lifespan of a device with an expired, used up battery. 

    only haters have a problem with it. 

    But they have been throttling devices that were either under warranty or an AppleCare contract.  With 11.2 they are adding the iPhone 7 to the throttling list and that phone is only slightly more than a year old.  Only devices fully depleted and charged more than once a day would exceed the stated 500 charge cycle battery lifespan.  These devices didn't have an expired, used up battery; they had a design flaw that prevented the phone from working as advertised under normal operating conditions.

    If they only throttled devices that failed internal testing and notified the customer the battery was bad then it would be fine.  What Apple has avoided with its lack of transparency is people with valid service agreements coming in with a battery failure and demanding a replacement under the terms of the contract.

    This issue isn't as black-and-white as some would like it to be.  To the extent Apple benefited by avoiding warranty claims on covered devices by artificially slowing them down to cover up a design flaw they need to be held accountable.
    Under warranty, Apple replaces batteries operating under 80% capacity on testing. I understand the throttling does not apply to a phone where the capacity is still good. People suffering this slowdown under warranty should get the battery replaced.  If the battery is still good then it is some other problem.
    I have had a battery replaced on a 5S under warranty.  Mrs Entropy’s 6 plus had her battery replaced in one of those mall booths well outside warranty for a small cost. The improvement was like a new machine. Out of warranty, I would not expect any company to give me new parts to replace worn out parts for free.
    edited December 2017 watto_cobra
  • Reply 71 of 130
    This is just getting stupid now!
  • Reply 72 of 130
    r2d2r2d2 Posts: 95member
    entropys said:

    Out of warranty, I would not expect any company to give me new parts to replace worn out parts for free.

    Out of warranty, I wouldn't expect a company to secretly slow down my device but here we are.
    muthuk_vanalingamsingularity
  • Reply 73 of 130
    entropys said:
    78Bandit said:

    k2kw said:
    nethan9 said:
    I don't buy this story. Apple is trying to force you to buy to a new iPhone, each time it releases new one. I's called planned obsolescence.
    Maybe it was purposeful unplanned obsolescence.    Either Way looks real bad.   I expect there to be an FEATURE/EDITORIAL this weekend from DED saying what apple did was the absolute best thing and of course better than android especially Samsung.
    Yes, what Apple did was reasonable - extend the lifespan of a device with an expired, used up battery. 

    only haters have a problem with it. 

    But they have been throttling devices that were either under warranty or an AppleCare contract.  With 11.2 they are adding the iPhone 7 to the throttling list and that phone is only slightly more than a year old.  Only devices fully depleted and charged more than once a day would exceed the stated 500 charge cycle battery lifespan.  These devices didn't have an expired, used up battery; they had a design flaw that prevented the phone from working as advertised under normal operating conditions.

    If they only throttled devices that failed internal testing and notified the customer the battery was bad then it would be fine.  What Apple has avoided with its lack of transparency is people with valid service agreements coming in with a battery failure and demanding a replacement under the terms of the contract.

    This issue isn't as black-and-white as some would like it to be.  To the extent Apple benefited by avoiding warranty claims on covered devices by artificially slowing them down to cover up a design flaw they need to be held accountable.
    Under warranty, Apple replaces batteries operating under 80% capacity on testing. I understand the throttling does not apply to a phone where the capacity is still good. People suffering this slowdown under warranty should get the battery replaced.  If the battery is still good then it is some other problem.
    I have had a battery replaced on a 5S under warranty.  Mrs Entropy’s 6 plus had her battery replaced in one of those mall booths well outside warranty for a small cost. The improvement was like a new machine. Out of warranty, I would not expect any company to give me new parts to replace worn out parts for free.

    Your understanding would be exactly what a normal consumer would expect, but it appears Apple is actually doing something different.

    There are two battery test algorithms, one done by the phone to determine when to throttle and a second one to determine the 80% capacity done at an Apple store for warranty replacement. The results of the internal test are hidden from the user; the phone simply starts throttling with no notice.  The internal threshold for instituting throttling is apparently quite a bit easier to trigger than the 80% Genius Bar test.  There have been numerous complaints of people with slow phones that were either under warranty or AppleCare who went into an Apple store and had their battery test fine, yet when they paid for a replacement battery from a third party their phone performance returned to normal.

    That is basically the foundation of the lawsuit.  Apple is throttling devices that should be fixed under warranty to cover up for a hardware defect.  Customers are told the battery is good after an in-store test, yet the phone itself thinks otherwise and cuts peak performance by up to 50%. The 6 and the 6s are still being sold new, so if the throttling algorithm is kicking in on devices that are in-warranty then the consumer needs to be informed so they can get a replacement at Apple's expense.  It will be up to the courts to decide if there is enough evidence to support the claim Apple was covering this up deliberately.

    My personal guess is battery capacity isn't a factor in the internal throttling test at all.  I think the phone looks at instantaneous battery output voltage and when it falls below a preset limit it cuts the CPU power regardless of how well the battery otherwise performs.

    EDIT:  For the record I greatly approve of Apple's fix to avoid crashing on phones with out of spec batteries.  I've got a three-year-old iPhone 6 and would much rather have it clip the power rather than crash.  That said, it is out of warranty and on my dime to fix.  I thank Apple for implementing a method that allows my phone to function when it would have been crashing.  However, Apple should notify the consumer the battery is bad.  It is that lack of transparency that makes people believe Apple knew it was happening on in-warranty devices and deliberately kept it a secret.
    edited December 2017 muthuk_vanalingamHabi_tweet
  • Reply 74 of 130
    interdyne said:
    Making this change to prevent shut downs makes sense. NOT telling customers about it is unforgivable. This is going to cost Apple in reputation, legal fees and settlements.
    This is a little bit dramatic. Unforgivable? Apple doesn’t have to explain how it managers the battery. Everyone thinks their phone is slowing down. Even on android phones. Apple has a class action lawsuit every year. Samsung had exploding phones and recalled every single one sold. They seem to be doing ok now. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 75 of 130
    k2kw said:
    nethan9 said:
    I don't buy this story. Apple is trying to force you to buy to a new iPhone, each time it releases new one. I's called planned obsolescence.
    Maybe it was purposeful unplanned obsolescence.    Either Way looks real bad.   I expect there to be an FEATURE/EDITORIAL this weekend from DED saying what apple did was the absolute best thing and of course better than android especially Samsung.
    Samsung’s phones explode. And why do you come to a fan site and complain about positive coverage. Slowing down the phone to make it last longer IS a good thing. I’d take that over random shut off any day. Apple is never going to  explain the ins and outs of how it managers the phones battery and cpu. I don’t know why so many trolls come to a pro Apple news site 
    tallest skilwatto_cobra
  • Reply 76 of 130
    Soli said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Soli said:
    r2d2 said:
    Soli said:

    If any of that was true then they WOULDN"'T ALLOW OLDER DEVICES TO GET THE LATEST OSES AND FEATURES AT ALL! This means less work for Apple and more feature envy for customers with older devices. Do you people ever think before you post?
    Did you think before posting this?! Less work for Apple?!! It would mean less money for Apple. Pay attention - this has been and is happening whether you like it of not. What do you mean, "they wouldn't allow" that to happen - they have and didn't say a word about it to clue people in. Deal with the reality of the situation.
    Apple spends many millions of dollars in adopting, testing and supporting iOS for older devices… but you think this is at no charge for Apple.
    Apple now has older iPhones going back up to 5 years that have new features which keeps customers using older devices… but you think that users being stuck on an antiquated OS would hinder a desire to get new iPhones with new HW and SW features.

    Instead. you create a conspiracy theory that Apple gives users new features and then makes devices not work so that myopic dipshits like you believe that an old device with an old battery is somehow purposely and maliciously hindered in SW so you're forced to buy a new device despite your claims that it's just driving you to drop Apple entirely. What a reasonable comment¡
    Okay, going back a bit. 

    Let’s forget about the technical stuff because we’re in the wrong place for that. Let’s have a look at management of this. 

    People have been claiming that their phones have been slowing down. Clever, knowledgeable folk have been saying “Nope, you’re imagining it”, and during this time, Apple KNEW that a possible cause was this policy of preventing the phone from cutting out. Regardless of the technical reasons, why not just be honest about what you’re doing? “We didn’t want the phone to crash while you were on your way to your highest Hitman Sniper score so we throttle the phone during peak cycles because of a depleted battery cannot cope with it.”

    They screwed up, and that is going give them merry hell from “myopic dipshits” for years to come. Now they’re in a position of having to explain a cover-up. Good luck with that. 
    Apple completely dropped the ball with their lack of transparency, which also makes them myopic dipshits for not accurately predicting this backlash for executing an otherwise reasonable engineering decision

    This is clearly going to affect Apple's PR for years to come, as you mention, just as antennagate and bendghazi are still brought up constantly, but this notion that they offer YoY updates in order to force people to buy new phones has no merit. If I were running Apple I'd seriously consider stopping support for device over 3 years.
    Thats right (maybe not 'myopic dipshits') and I'm with you.  IF the throttle reason given by Apple is bone fide, then why not be transparent and present a choice popup to the user on the device .. the battery is getting old so we can either slow the device down during periods of peak demand or not do anything but with an increased risk of device shutdown Y/N.  Customers HATE it when they learn a company has not been up-front.  Why ??? It's a breach of trust.
    r2d2
  • Reply 77 of 130
    sector7g said:
    I don’t know why so many trolls come to a pro Apple news site 
    Some are paid.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 78 of 130
    Li batteries simply decline in performance as they age and experience more and more charge cycles. That’s simple chemistry neither Apple nor courts can change. So to prevent unanticipated shutdowns Apple provided a software patch for failing batteries. Not even remotely a conspiracy and it’s in the terms of service btw. 

    Every mobile device maker utilized software tactics to drag as much battery life out of the limited space inside the case as possible. 

    One change I’d suggest is a notification asking for authorization: hit “yes” if you don’t want to risk shutdowns, decline if you don’t care. 
  • Reply 79 of 130

    sector7g said:
    I don’t know why so many trolls come to a pro Apple news site 
    Some are paid.
    Marketing tactics of competitors, just like some of those suits. 
  • Reply 80 of 130
    SoliSoli Posts: 9,175member
    Thinking about it, weren't there still plenty of Samsung Galaxy users that were perfectly fine with not returning the device for a refund despite the chance that it could spontaneously blow up and catch fire? I guess if those people exist there are surely those that would want slightly more CPU cycles even if it means the device shuts down.
    tallest skil
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