Third iPhone battery lawsuit says Apple used slowdowns to avoid fixing defects

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 130
    jkichline said:
    r2d2 said:
    loopless said:
    These lawsuits are total BS and AppleInsider should stop giving them such prominence. Especially with comments from people who think Apple should be producing a flip phone with a pop-out battery.

    Users are unlikely to notice slowdowns - but artificial benchmarks will show issues and only with phones will degraded batteries. I would MUCH rather my phone slowed down bit than suddenly "quit". 
    The slow-down is very noticeable. To the point of frustration. If you have no knowledge of this subject maybe you shouldn't post comments.
    Agreed. My wife installed iOS 11 on her iPhone 6 and it killed performance to the point it was basically unusable. She held out and got the iPhone X. So yes, if they throttled the phone and caused $1,000 upgrades... that’s a problem. They should have instead released an update that tested the battery and offered a replacement option or allowed the user to enable the power-saving mode until the replacement could happen.or heck at least offer a tradin in allowance to give the user something to make-good on the broken device.
    LOL... This issue has nothing to do with the iOS 11 release. 

    By the way, too bad your wife sprung for the X since the performance problems with the 6 under iOS11 have been pretty much resolved with various OS and app updates.
    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 130
    r2d2 said:
    Soli said:

    If any of that was true then they WOULDN"'T ALLOW OLDER DEVICES TO GET THE LATEST OSES AND FEATURES AT ALL! This means less work for Apple and more feature envy for customers with older devices. Do you people ever think before you post?
    Did you think before posting this?! Less work for Apple?!! It would mean less money for Apple. ...
    ROFL...  Do just make this nonsense up as you go?
    StrangeDayspscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 130
    macguimacgui Posts: 1,383member
    Soli said:
    Do you people ever think before you post?
    I ask myself that same question at about every other post I read here.
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 130
    nethan9 said:
    Really? I don't buy this story. Apple worrying about life of your battery. Yeah, right. Apple is trying to force you to buy to a new iPhone, each time it releases new one. I's called planned obsolescence. Fortunately for Apple, whole bunch of fanboys will spend over thousand dollars each year for a new iPhone. I've used Apple products for more years than most of you in this forum, but I don't like what I see, last couple years.
    So that would mean that every device would behave in this manner if it’s planned obsolescence as you claim. Every phone around the 2 year mark would act this way according to your logic, and that simply isn’t true. I don’t care how long you have used Apple products as that carries zero weight to your conspiracy theory as far as I am concerned. The fact that you used the word “fanboys” and mentioning that you’ve used Apple products longer than most people in this forums with a whole 8 posts under your belt makes me think troll. 


    chiaStrangeDayswatto_cobrajax44
  • Reply 45 of 130
    Rayz2016 said:
    Soli said:
    r2d2 said:
    Soli said:

    If any of that was true then they WOULDN"'T ALLOW OLDER DEVICES TO GET THE LATEST OSES AND FEATURES AT ALL! This means less work for Apple and more feature envy for customers with older devices. Do you people ever think before you post?
    Did you think before posting this?! Less work for Apple?!! It would mean less money for Apple. Pay attention - this has been and is happening whether you like it of not. What do you mean, "they wouldn't allow" that to happen - they have and didn't say a word about it to clue people in. Deal with the reality of the situation.
    Apple spends many millions of dollars in adopting, testing and supporting iOS for older devices… but you think this is at no charge for Apple.
    Apple now has older iPhones going back up to 5 years that have new features which keeps customers using older devices… but you think that users being stuck on an antiquated OS would hinder a desire to get new iPhones with new HW and SW features.

    Instead. you create a conspiracy theory that Apple gives users new features and then makes devices not work so that myopic dipshits like you believe that an old device with an old battery is somehow purposely and maliciously hindered in SW so you're forced to buy a new device despite your claims that it's just driving you to drop Apple entirely. What a reasonable comment¡
    Okay, going back a bit. 

    Let’s forget about the technical stuff because we’re in the wrong place for that. Let’s have a look at management of this. 

    People have been claiming that their phones have been slowing down. Clever, knowledgeable folk have been saying “Nope, you’re imagining it”, and during this time, Apple KNEW that a possible cause was this policy of preventing the phone from cutting out. Regardless of the technical reasons, why not just be honest about what you’re doing? “We didn’t want the phone to crash while you were on your way to your highest Hitman Sniper score so we throttle the phone during peak cycles because of a depleted battery cannot cope with it.”

    They screwed up, and that is going give them merry hell from “myopic dipshits” for years to come. Now they’re in a position of having to explain a cover-up. Good luck with that. 
    While I think Apple should have been more transparent about the aging, worn out battery issues, to call it a "cover-up" has no basis in reality.

    Apple adjusts and tweaks their OS in countless ways and for countless reasons.  They do that to improve the user experience.  This was one of those times -- because an unreliable phone is not an option for most users.   Apple fixed that very serious problem with a trade off in performance.   That was a good decision with the best interests of users in mind.  Not a "cover up".
    dewmeStrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 130
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,731member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Soli said:
    r2d2 said:
    Soli said:

    If any of that was true then they WOULDN"'T ALLOW OLDER DEVICES TO GET THE LATEST OSES AND FEATURES AT ALL! This means less work for Apple and more feature envy for customers with older devices. Do you people ever think before you post?
    Did you think before posting this?! Less work for Apple?!! It would mean less money for Apple. Pay attention - this has been and is happening whether you like it of not. What do you mean, "they wouldn't allow" that to happen - they have and didn't say a word about it to clue people in. Deal with the reality of the situation.
    Apple spends many millions of dollars in adopting, testing and supporting iOS for older devices… but you think this is at no charge for Apple.
    Apple now has older iPhones going back up to 5 years that have new features which keeps customers using older devices… but you think that users being stuck on an antiquated OS would hinder a desire to get new iPhones with new HW and SW features.

    Instead. you create a conspiracy theory that Apple gives users new features and then makes devices not work so that myopic dipshits like you believe that an old device with an old battery is somehow purposely and maliciously hindered in SW so you're forced to buy a new device despite your claims that it's just driving you to drop Apple entirely. What a reasonable comment¡
    Okay, going back a bit. 

    Let’s forget about the technical stuff because we’re in the wrong place for that. Let’s have a look at management of this. 

    People have been claiming that their phones have been slowing down. Clever, knowledgeable folk have been saying “Nope, you’re imagining it”, and during this time, Apple KNEW that a possible cause was this policy of preventing the phone from cutting out. Regardless of the technical reasons, why not just be honest about what you’re doing? “We didn’t want the phone to crash while you were on your way to your highest Hitman Sniper score so we throttle the phone during peak cycles because of a depleted battery cannot cope with it.”

    They screwed up, and that is going give them merry hell from “myopic dipshits” for years to come. Now they’re in a position of having to explain a cover-up. Good luck with that. 
    While I think Apple should have been more transparent about the aging, worn out battery issues, to call it a "cover-up" has no basis in reality.

    Apple adjusts and tweaks their OS in countless ways and for countless reasons.  They do that to improve the user experience.  This was one of those times -- because an unreliable phone is not an option for most users.   Apple fixed that very serious problem with a trade off in performance.   That was a good decision with the best interests of users in mind.  Not a "cover up".
    Whether you or I think it’s a cover up doesn’t matter. What matters is what it looks like. 
    r2d2muthuk_vanalingamHabi_tweet
  • Reply 47 of 130
    r2d2r2d2 Posts: 95member
    Soli said:

    Instead. you create a conspiracy theory that Apple gives users new features and then makes devices not work so that myopic dipshits like you believe that an old device with an old battery is somehow purposely and maliciously hindered in SW so you're forced to buy a new device despite your claims that it's just driving you to drop Apple entirely. What a reasonable comment¡
    Fact: Devices with older or defective batteries are hindered in SW.
    Fact: People have taken their "shutting down phones" into Apple only to be told that their battery / device was fine. Must be something else.
    Fact: Apple customers are either very loyal and or very invested in the ecosystem and are less likely to switch to a different OS.
    Fact: Because of this undisclosed SW upgrade "feature", people have felt compelled to buy a newer phone.

    I would say being "forced" to upgrade their phones is incorrect because you always have a choice. This is misleading people to upgrade by omission. Call it what you want but that is what has happened.

    Notice how I didn't resort to name calling?
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 48 of 130
    r2d2r2d2 Posts: 95member
    r2d2 said:

    Did you think before posting this?! Less work for Apple?!! It would mean less money for Apple. ...
    ROFL...  Do just make this nonsense up as you go?
    Is that all you got?!

    You posted this in a previous post:

    "But honestly, I seriously considered buying a new phone because, while it had a worn battery, it was too unreliable to depend on."

    While you didn't pull the trigger on a new phone because Apple didn't disclose this SW / battery issue, many people did. That's more money for Apple.
    edited December 2017 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 49 of 130
    bshankbshank Posts: 163member
    larrya said:
    This is the one with legs.  Though the iPhone 6/6+ aren’t new, some recently purchased phones saw the slowdowns while the battery still tested “good” at the Apple store (based on comments on the subject here over the last couple of days).   A judge will decide based on the preponderance of evidence, which is:

    - a previously admitted battery flaw and replacement program
    - a previous admission that the shutdown problem grew to affect other models
    - a newly admitted slowdown algorithm that kicks in before the Genius Bar says the battery is eligible for replacement 
    - performance results that are half of the phone’s performance when new

    In this context it will be very difficult for Apple to claim their motivation was user experience, since it sucks anyway at half-speed. 



    The battery flaw was was on the 6s, not the 6
    edited December 2017 watto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 130
    dws-2dws-2 Posts: 238member
    larrya said:
    This is the one with legs.  Though the iPhone 6/6+ aren’t new, some recently purchased phones saw the slowdowns while the battery still tested “good” at the Apple store (based on comments on the subject here over the last couple of days).   A judge will decide based on the preponderance of evidence, which is:

    - a previously admitted battery flaw and replacement program
    - a previous admission that the shutdown problem grew to affect other models
    - a newly admitted slowdown algorithm that kicks in before the Genius Bar says the battery is eligible for replacement 
    - performance results that are half of the phone’s performance when new

    In this context it will be very difficult for Apple to claim their motivation was user experience, since it sucks anyway at half-speed. 
    I think the battery testing as "good" while still slowing down the phone is going to cause Apple some trouble. 
    muthuk_vanalingammike54
  • Reply 51 of 130
    SoliSoli Posts: 9,208member
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    r2d2 said:
    Soli said:

    If any of that was true then they WOULDN"'T ALLOW OLDER DEVICES TO GET THE LATEST OSES AND FEATURES AT ALL! This means less work for Apple and more feature envy for customers with older devices. Do you people ever think before you post?
    Did you think before posting this?! Less work for Apple?!! It would mean less money for Apple. Pay attention - this has been and is happening whether you like it of not. What do you mean, "they wouldn't allow" that to happen - they have and didn't say a word about it to clue people in. Deal with the reality of the situation.
    Apple spends many millions of dollars in adopting, testing and supporting iOS for older devices… but you think this is at no charge for Apple.
    Apple now has older iPhones going back up to 5 years that have new features which keeps customers using older devices… but you think that users being stuck on an antiquated OS would hinder a desire to get new iPhones with new HW and SW features.

    Instead. you create a conspiracy theory that Apple gives users new features and then makes devices not work so that myopic dipshits like you believe that an old device with an old battery is somehow purposely and maliciously hindered in SW so you're forced to buy a new device despite your claims that it's just driving you to drop Apple entirely. What a reasonable comment¡
    I'm not sure how much Apple tests their latest iOS versions in old devices.  In my personal experience, "upgrading" a +3 years old device is not necessarily for the better.  The performance hit is noticeable, and many times it would be better if I had it left with the previos versions.  But since Apple force users to keep the latest iOS version, the only option you have to recover the performance is replacing the device.  And this experience applies to iPhone and iPads.
    It certainly doesn't seem like they neither put their top engineers on it nor spend as much time debugging those devices, which is another reason they should consider cutting them loose. Obviously it would suck for a customer to have a device that can only get the latest iOS version for 4 years instead of 5, but if it cuts down on a bad user experience and a rush from their top-tier engineers to issue point update fix after point update fix right after launch then it may have an overall positive effect.

    I know people here like to say Apple can do anything but they're still clearly resource limited—great engineers and testing SW with HW in every conceivable fashion in one area that can't grow as fast as you through money at it. I feel like Apple still wants to run like a boutique shop, and they really can't, especially when their devices are so interconnected that they need to release iOS, macOS, watchOS, tvOS, and probably other SW updates to apps and whatever the T-series and W-series chips run on. There's no shame in tightening that circle so you're not overextending yourself.

    (This post is not about the degrading battery issue nd Apple's reasonable engineering decision to keep devices from shutting down)
    watto_cobramuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 52 of 130
    Apple went about fixing the issue the complete wrong way. If the root cause is the battery dying, they should replace the battery of your device. Forcing an involuntary performance hit that doesn't inform the user why their device is slowing down to compensate for the dying battery is a terrible solution to the problem.
    muthuk_vanalingamHabi_tweet
  • Reply 53 of 130
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,767member
    mike54 said:
    nethan9 said:
    Really? I don't buy this story. Apple worrying about life of your battery. Yeah, right. Apple is trying to force you to buy to a new iPhone, each time it releases new one. I's called planned obsolescence. Fortunately for Apple, whole bunch of fanboys will spend over thousand dollars each year for a new iPhone. I've used Apple products for more years than most of you in this forum, but I don't like what I see, last couple years.
    I with you on this. It's astounding that even intelligent people are giving Apple a free pass here. eg I wrote a comment saying Apple gave no explanation, and someone retorts back saying they did. Well, Apple only mentioned it last week and that's because they were effectively forced to. In some people's eyes Apple can do wrong.
    The only way to send a message to Apple is to not buy their products and cancel their Services like Apple Music.

    To me this is a "used car salesman move on Apple's part"
    mike54
  • Reply 54 of 130
    dewmedewme Posts: 2,126member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Soli said:
    r2d2 said:
    Soli said:

    If any of that was true then they WOULDN"'T ALLOW OLDER DEVICES TO GET THE LATEST OSES AND FEATURES AT ALL! This means less work for Apple and more feature envy for customers with older devices. Do you people ever think before you post?
    Did you think before posting this?! Less work for Apple?!! It would mean less money for Apple. Pay attention - this has been and is happening whether you like it of not. What do you mean, "they wouldn't allow" that to happen - they have and didn't say a word about it to clue people in. Deal with the reality of the situation.
    Apple spends many millions of dollars in adopting, testing and supporting iOS for older devices… but you think this is at no charge for Apple.
    Apple now has older iPhones going back up to 5 years that have new features which keeps customers using older devices… but you think that users being stuck on an antiquated OS would hinder a desire to get new iPhones with new HW and SW features.

    Instead. you create a conspiracy theory that Apple gives users new features and then makes devices not work so that myopic dipshits like you believe that an old device with an old battery is somehow purposely and maliciously hindered in SW so you're forced to buy a new device despite your claims that it's just driving you to drop Apple entirely. What a reasonable comment¡
    Okay, going back a bit. 

    Let’s forget about the technical stuff because we’re in the wrong place for that. Let’s have a look at management of this. 

    People have been claiming that their phones have been slowing down. Clever, knowledgeable folk have been saying “Nope, you’re imagining it”, and during this time, Apple KNEW that a possible cause was this policy of preventing the phone from cutting out. Regardless of the technical reasons, why not just be honest about what you’re doing? “We didn’t want the phone to crash while you were on your way to your highest Hitman Sniper score so we throttle the phone during peak cycles because of a depleted battery cannot cope with it.”

    They screwed up, and that is going give them merry hell from “myopic dipshits” for years to come. Now they’re in a position of having to explain a cover-up. Good luck with that. 
    While I think Apple should have been more transparent about the aging, worn out battery issues, to call it a "cover-up" has no basis in reality.

    Apple adjusts and tweaks their OS in countless ways and for countless reasons.  They do that to improve the user experience.  This was one of those times -- because an unreliable phone is not an option for most users.   Apple fixed that very serious problem with a trade off in performance.   That was a good decision with the best interests of users in mind.  Not a "cover up".
    For good or bad, Apple is a technical company and doesn't forget about the "technical stuff." It's in their DNA. They've produced a general purpose handheld computer called the iPhone. This little computer allows users to add thousands of new features and gigabytes of content to the device over its lifetime. They could have gone the route of selling the iPhone not as a general purpose computer but as a fixed function device that only does what it was originally designed to do when it was built and nothing more. Like a non-programmable calculator or flip phone.

    Because Apple chose to make the iPhone a general purpose computer it has to survive a lifetime of changes and a lifetime of concerns about reliability and availability. For the most part the reliability is designed into the iPhone based on component selection and how the components are used/stressed over their projected lifetime. Every component has a projected reliability (from its producer) and Apple considers this in their design to come up with a projected reliability of the whole product. Part of this projection will include variations/margins/accommodations for component wear and aging. Apple could probably provide a chart that shows the probability of an iPhone model failing at any point in time from the day it is built and powered up for the first time to any arbitrary point in the future. Yes, it's all probability, with margins, which means that even if the projected mean time to fail is 4.5 years any single unit could still fail in two days and the whole batch still exhibit the lifetime predicted by the reliability analysis.

    However, what Apple is really selling isn't reliability per se - they are selling availability. Availability is the probability of the features that your user relies upon are available (in full or in part) when needed despite underlying reliability limitations, like parts wearing out or degrading through use, abuse, time, environment, etc. Everyone who is thoughtful enough to make backups of their personal data understands availability. If you have a RAID storage array you have bought into the availability promise. Designing for availability is a design strategy with a long history of practices for failure avoidance in the face of limited and declining reliability, stress, age, and failure of required underlying components. One of the availability practices or response is to put a system into a "degraded mode" to maintain availability with a reduced quality of service rather than zero quality of service. Another is to suppress the condition that induced the failure. From Apple's explanation of the current issue they are suppressing the failure inducing mechanism and as a result are putting iPhones with aging and nearly-worn-out batteries into a "degraded mode." 

    Apple's engineers have made a very sound engineering decision from an availability perspective. Nothing nefarious is going on, it's totally inline with engineering best practices. However, I totally agree with those who state that Apple should have informed affected users that their iPhones are now operating permanently in a "degraded mode" for a known condition, i.e., weak battery, and that a corrective action is possible, i.e., battery replacement, to get their iPhones out of the "degraded mode" state. I don't agree at all with those who conflate this to an intentional act by Apple to induce customers with buy new iPhones. It's simply a case where Apple's engineers thought that employing an availability strategy was totally within their realm of control, much like the thousands of other engineering/design strategies that they implement without telling end customers anything at all about how, where, or why. In this case the engineer's assumptions were shortsighted or not vetted through leadership and they did not foresee the bad publicity that this would cause, especially in an environment with very vocal detractors always looking for any opportunity to express their personal grievances against Apple. I know that Apple will fix this specific problem to the satisfaction of the vast majority of affected customers, but it will never quiet the detractors whose life mission is to promote ill will towards Apple. The latter issue is unfixable.  
    pscooter63muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 55 of 130
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,767member
    Ratatoskr said:
    Apple went about fixing the issue the complete wrong way. If the root cause is the battery dying, they should replace the battery of your device. Forcing an involuntary performance hit that doesn't inform the user why their device is slowing down to compensate for the dying battery is a terrible solution to the problem.
    Yes,  but they have a bean counter in Charge.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 56 of 130
    SoliSoli Posts: 9,208member
    Ratatoskr said:
    Apple went about fixing the issue the complete wrong way. If the root cause is the battery dying, they should replace the battery of your device. Forcing an involuntary performance hit that doesn't inform the user why their device is slowing down to compensate for the dying battery is a terrible solution to the problem.
    1) Batteris start dying the moment they're made.

    2) OK, in your scenario you can have a 4yo old iPhone with a severely aging battery that is far out of date of the factory warranty with, say, 1000 cycles on it, but you think Apple should replace every battery at their expense because, as you state, "the battery is dying.” I’d rather a clever engineering fix be used to keep the device working as long as well as possible for the user.

    The only gaffe was a lack of transparency, but the action was correct.
    edited December 2017 StrangeDayspscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 57 of 130
    Those who can, do. Those who can’t, sue. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 58 of 130
    Taking a different tack, another class action lawsuit -- following Apple's admission that it slows down iPhones with weakened batteries -- charges that the company made the change to avoid the full cost of fixing defects.




    In a filing with the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California, lawyers for plaintiff Keaton Harvey explained that a prior iPhone 6 of his suffered from spontaneously shutdowns despite having more than 50 percent charge, and became extremely slow, eventually leading him to buy a new iPhone at a cost of over $1,000.

    The attorneys noted that in Nov. 2016, Apple admitted to a "very small" number of iPhone 6s and 6s Plus units having problems with similar shutdowns as it launched a limited battery replacement program. The company later acknowledged that other iPhone models were impacted as well, and the Harvey lawsuit accuses Apple of making "deliberately misleading" statements, using the slowdown mechanism in iOS to avoid replacing batteries for all affected iPhones, rather than just 6s models.

    Throttling "allowed Apple to conceal the true nature and scope of the battery defect and to avoid expending time, money, and effort on correcting it," according to the court filing, with the "added benefit" that people dealing with slower iPhones would be prompted to upgrade.

    The lawsuit asks that Apple notify iPhone owners about the modifications it made to iOS, fix the software to restore performance, reimburse people who bought defective iPhones and/or tried to repair or replace them, and supply new batteries to people who still have poorly-performing hardware.

    Apple has been hit by a small barrage of lawsuits following a Wednesday statement in which claimed that a 2016 iOS update for the iPhone 6, 6s, and SE was intended to "smooth out the instantaneous peaks" and prevent phones with cold or degraded batteries from suddenly shutting down.

    "We've now extended that feature to iPhone 7 with iOS 11.2, and plan to add support for other products in the future," it added.

  • Reply 59 of 130
    r2d2 said:
    loopless said:
    These lawsuits are total BS and AppleInsider should stop giving them such prominence. Especially with comments from people who think Apple should be producing a flip phone with a pop-out battery.

    Users are unlikely to notice slowdowns - but artificial benchmarks will show issues and only with phones will degraded batteries. I would MUCH rather my phone slowed down bit than suddenly "quit". 
    The slow-down is very noticeable. To the point of frustration. If you have no knowledge of this subject maybe you shouldn't post comments.
    Pretty sure we all have as much knowledge on this subject as you.

    The slowdown is momentary at peak power draw, it is not constant. If your phone is constantly slow it has other problems -- such as being old but running a new OS. 
    pscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 60 of 130

    nethan9 said:
    Really? I don't buy this story. Apple worrying about life of your battery. Yeah, right. Apple is trying to force you to buy to a new iPhone, each time it releases new one. I's called planned obsolescence. Fortunately for Apple, whole bunch of fanboys will spend over thousand dollars each year for a new iPhone. I've used Apple products for more years than most of you in this forum, but I don't like what I see, last couple years.
    Yes you’re such a long time fan you have a whopping 9 posts here. Uh huh. 

    Planned obsolescence is a myth, and a stupid one at that. If Apple made their products suck on purpose, guess what consumers are going to do? Buy something else that doesn’t suck. 

    Unfortunately for your crackpot theory, iphones have the longest useful lifespan in the biz, and the highest resale value — people vote with their dollars. 

    Oh oh oh but fanboys! Its surely just all the fanboys keeping Apple in business! Pfft. What nonsense. Try again. 

    Troll Score (tm): 2 of 10
    pscooter63watto_cobra
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