Editorial: Bloomberg spins Apple's Event as a desperate, blind stab for cheap iPads in edu...

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  • Reply 21 of 129
    Software wise, Google is the educational standard from elementary to high school in my town in the U.S. Google offers educational version account that has school email address (instead of @gmail.com but uses @SchoolName.org or @SchoolName.edu), educational tools and cloud storage for free. I don't think Apple missed the boat but rather it's not Apple's best interest to give away freebies like this. Electronic devices (Chromebook, iDevices...etc) are not allowed in my son's school except bare-bone-old-fashion calculator. But students can only use supplied Windows PC stations in their classroom for work. At home, he can use either a Mac or PC to continue to access Google's educational account for school work and homework. That's it. I haven't seen any Chromebook being deployed in his school nor any iPad. Maybe it's just my town.
  • Reply 22 of 129
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    ericdano said:
    Google makes money on the Chrome License fee for the Management console. Basically, it allow you to "push" chrome apps (and Android apps) from a Chromebook enrolled in a Google Domain. It's $30 for a chromebook.

    They flooded Education with huge deals on the iPad 2, which schools were buying up (and Apple was selling) until like the first part of 2016? Then they announced Apple School Manager, which of course ONLY supports newer iPads. I brought this up at an Apple Event AT APPLE, and they were like "well, it needs blue tooth low power and its too slow when syncing profiles" or some such shit. So schools aren't going to buy NEW iPads to replace functioning iPads just to get this school manager. 

    With Chromebooks, you get what you get. It's basic web apps, Google Docs, Sheets, etc. Works fine. The current HP and Acer chromebooks have good 2 in 1 designs, and they fold back so you can use it like a tablet, and it works really well for a $300 device. Plus these are Gorilla Glass and are nearly impossible to break. My district has thousands of these deployed and the only failures I've seen are Dell's crappy quality control on their products.

    And then there is the mess of Apple and it's enterprise support. Managing Apple devices large scale is terrible compared to Google or Windows devices.

    I'd love to see an iPad with pencil support that has Gorilla glass and is made for Education. It has to be $300. And it needs to be in a durable case, like the one version of the iPhone that came in colors. Apple needs to make an Edu iPad that comes with like a rubberized case that can survive falls from 5 feet.


    Yet, IBM has proved just the opposite, it actually COSTS LESS. But, hey , narrative huh.
    williamlondonBluntpscooter63netmagemagman1979mwhitewatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 129
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    Google is doing fine with others using ChromeOS selling into the education market.  It doesn’t care that Samsung etc. makes practically nothing or even loses money on them.

    Google makes their money on the data and ads.  Kids will use Google’s services like YouTube and that’s a huge money maker.

    Schools have a hard time buying pencils let alone electronics.  They’re going to buy Chromebooks over IPads.  But when the students go to college they want IPads, and they’re fairly affordable through wireless carriers.

    You don’t see business users requesting Chromebooks because the chain is broken.
    Schools ares so cash strapped that neither Chromebooks or Ipads are really money makers. IT's more about pushing a different philosophy.
    Apple will push it's whole ecosystem, not just a device, into the schools; that's what they always do.

    BTW, I've used Gsuite a lot and don't know why on earth anyone would pick it over office, or office 365, it's pretty pathetic if you ask me.

    WTH are they even offering schools? Spreadsheets? Text editors I can build from spare javascript parts in a day. Come on.

    williamlondonpscooter63magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 129
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,569member
    I have to say I’m a bit of a fan of young Daniel’s “stream of consciousness” writing style: always well-researched, always passionate, rarely spell-checked…

    This particular article had me thinking about something that’s played on my mind for some time, and I think it was a bold observation on Daniel’s part that will probably encourage more heated debates further down the line. 

    Poor schools (the majority of them) buy Chromebooks. I assume this is true even though all the schools I encounter have iPads. (Mrs Rayz2016 is a head teacher which is why I know a lot of other head teachers, and is also why she always takes charge in a hotel evacuation. Nothing moves an adult faster than a headteacher telling them what to do. I think it’s a genetic memory thing). 

    Anyway, here’s the takeaway from this article. 

    If a child uses a platform in school then he will carry on using that platform as an adult. 

    Daniel’s right: it’s a myth. If it wasn’t a myth then the iPad would never have sustained its lead. I used a PC throughout my formative years, and couldn’t wait to get off the platform as soon as I could afford it. 

    Furthermore, Apple knows it’s a myth. 

    Furthermore, I suspect that both Daniel and Apple know that once the kid gets home, the Chromebook is dropped in favour of the iPad, which the family can afford to buy because they got the Chromebook for nothing (thanks Google!). 

    Furthermore, Google knows its a myth too. But it doesn’t matter because their business is data harvesting, not education, so they’re happy to support education as long as they can track data from it to sell on. 

    But if there should come a time that folk become worried about the tracking of personal information, especially when it concerns their kids, then Google might find itself under the same sort of scrutiny being suffered by Facebook at the moment. (Incidentally, neither Facebook or Google has done anything wrong: everything they do is fully explained to you when you sign up – aside from when they do something illegal, like track your browser when you tell them not to). 

    There have been more, far more serious data breaches recently, and Apple has kept quiet. Now the Facebook thing, and Apple starts banging the drum. I think that Apple's timing is no accident. I’m going to stick my neck out and say that the privacy of the child will be a big thing at Apple going forward. Might even get a mention at the event on a Tuesday. 

    As for a desperate attempt to win back education? Apple won’t get drawn into a race to the bottom of the class; they’ll catch ‘em later. So don’t expect loss-making iPads on Tuesday. 



    edited March 2018 propodzimmermannStrangeDaysmacxpresspscooter63ericthehalfbeethtradarthekatloquiturmagman1979
  • Reply 25 of 129
    Chromebooks would be good if it wasn't for the word 'Google' and their association with the software.
    Google has to start somewhere in building up a picture of us, our lives and our everything. Where better to start than at school eh?

    I hope that after this Facebook/CA fiasco, people take a long and hard look at how they use computers and who gets to see all that lovely data on each and every one of us.
    Google is up there in the firing line for slurping our lives.

    I stopped using google directly for searches a few years ago. Now it is all done via an anonymiser. Long may that continue.
    magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 129
    MisterKitMisterKit Posts: 229member
    I really don’t see how Apple could sell even last years 2017 iPad for $259 much less an even higher spec replacement. From my perspective the main difference in the pro models is pencil support. For me and I would think many others a $300 range pencil compatible standard iPad takes away the need to jump up to the $600 and up range pros. Tuesday should be interesting for sure.
    netmagewatto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 129
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,756member
    Well i see DED is back to wasting bandwidth with a ton of crap that doesnt even touch upon Apples real problems in efucation. The number one issue with iPads is the lack of a keyboard which makes anything other than tribial text entry a psin. 

    The second issue  with iPad is pricing.  Apple in its ecessive greed raised the price on the whole line somehow completely mis understanding what people expect from the electronics industry!!  That is people in general, schools simply dont have the luxury of paying what ever Apple wants.  

    In the end is Apple wants education they need to ship a laptop form device.   That device should be ARM based and hopefully running on a powerful OS like Mac OS.  Obviously needs change with grade levels but in the end students and schools need flexibility.  Hell iPad doesnt even have a clean easily accessible USB port to make a science class interesting.  
    williamlondon
  • Reply 28 of 129
    djsherlydjsherly Posts: 1,016member
    wizard69 said:
    Well i see DED is back to wasting bandwidth with a ton of crap that doesnt even touch upon Apples real problems in efucation. The number one issue with iPads is the lack of a keyboard which makes anything other than tribial text entry a psin. 

    The second issue  with iPad is pricing.  Apple in its ecessive greed raised the price on the whole line somehow completely mis understanding what people expect from the electronics industry!!  That is people in general, schools simply dont have the luxury of paying what ever Apple wants.  

    In the end is Apple wants education they need to ship a laptop form device.   That device should be ARM based and hopefully running on a powerful OS like Mac OS.  Obviously needs change with grade levels but in the end students and schools need flexibility.  Hell iPad doesnt even have a clean easily accessible USB port to make a science class interesting.  
    The only thing I'd add to this is that, after listening to the Vector podcast, the cloud first mentality of Google is an absolute boom for MDM. You just sign in with your email id and all your stuff is there, ready to go, on a new device should you need it.

    Perhaps the education event is a cloud play. But Apple needs to get better at that (admitting that they've made great progress in that respect).

    Field Trip = remote access = out of office = your data everywhere?
    radarthekat
  • Reply 29 of 129
    ireland said:
    Is Google still data mining kids in school?
    Always.
    Wrong.

    Maybe you should spend time reading their education Privacy page: https://edu.google.com/intl/en_ca/k-12-solutions/privacy-security/?modal_active=none

    Another good read: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/13/technology/google-education-chromebooks-schools.html



    edited March 2018
  • Reply 30 of 129
    jfanning said:
    Very American centric article, Daniel why don't you talk about the remaining 96% of the works population?
    Because that would go against his narrative.
    avon b7muthuk_vanalingamrogerramjetMrSafari
  • Reply 31 of 129

    Listen to Rene Ritchie’s recent Vector podcast with Bradley Chambers. Apple has work to do in the education sector. DED can spin all he wants but Chromebooks and Google’s G Suite are winning in the classroom. Probably one reason why Apple is having an education focused event. I actually don’t expect hardware to be announced at this event. My guess is it will be software focused.
    I'd rather pull my kid out of school than allow the likes of Google to data mine them and turn them into products like they have almost all living people on the planet.
    Enough of the hyperbole. You'd rather pull your kid from school than to have them educated? Also Google doesn't data mine education Chromebooks, maybe you should actually ready their privacy terms for the education market. So maybe you should do some research and stop listening to people like DED who will spin anything and everything to favour Apple no matter what.
    williamlondonMrSafari
  • Reply 32 of 129
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 3,929member
    Latko said:
    The school market is a lost chance for Apple - as long as it doesn’t deliver on the need for deployment tools (device management, app/version management, content mgt., rights/access mgt.) and keeps denying the need for multiple iOS accounts. Cook & co don’t even understand the concept of double instance multi-tasking (2 Word/Excel docs at the same time), making their post-PC claims near ridiculous. So an iPad with a pencil (if it comes at a Chromebook ‘s pricepoint to start with...) basically remains an overpriced sketchbook - that will never see structural implementation by the lack of a supporting infrastructure (what did Apple’s coopration with IBM bring in ?) A cheap repackaging effort that only underlines the lack of a broader understanding of the sectors’ device/content mgt. needs. Better stay out of this market - edu won’t match Cook’s premium financial prerequisites anyway and it would make Apple’s “thinking in the best interest of the customer” just a fluffy claim - as they only want to sell boxes
    The educational market is, and has always been, extremely price sensitive. Price sensitive markets aren't necessarily markets in which Apple should be attempting to compete. Apple makes aspirational devices and services. People who are used to using inferior alternatives should be desperate to buy and replace the old products with Apple products.
    Except Google’s product and services aren’t inferior to Apple’s. This argument was fine at a time when other companies products really were inferior to Apple’s. My nephew owns a Pixel 2 and absolutely loves it. The photos he takes with it are as good as what I get with my iPhone X. Another thing, if privacy is such a big deal for Apple why would they want Google to own the classroom just so they don’t have to give up hardware margin? I think Apple would do whatever necessary to ensure its software and services are the preferred choice in schools. Isn’t it more likely for kids to own Apple products if they’re using them in school? 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 33 of 129
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 364member
    The problem with the educational market for computers is k12 doesn’t know what to do with computers in the classroom. 

    That is, there really is NO K12 educational market to sell into. Computers are not fundamental to the goals of a K12 education. Computers are how many get their information, such as school notices, social media, gaming, but the schools are not driving the use of computers — they are reacting to the ubiquity of the Internet and smart devices like the iPhone and iPad. 

    Schools need to to be sensitive to the haves and havenots, which might drive them to standardize on some computing devices. On the other hand, there is really no good reason to standardize on any device. Most any device will be adequate. The drive to standardize is administrative only — locking down devices, managing content, managing access — as usual for most organizations, spending resources on overhead not education. 

    The promise of intelligent textbooks have not arrived. The promise of technology driving teaching away from the passive lecture to more active approaches has not arrived. This will take another generation if at all, and then, technology will only play a minor role. 

    Apple educational initiatives will never sell into the schools. The market for their devices will be made by the public who believe these devices have educational benefits for themselves and their kids, not by the schools. 
    StrangeDaystht
  • Reply 34 of 129
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,453member
    Is Google still data mining kids in school?
    Did you look? It's not hidden info. By the way are you still beating your partner?
    https://edu.google.com/k-12-solutions/privacy-security/?modal_active=none
  • Reply 35 of 129
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,453member
    Google is doing fine with others using ChromeOS selling into the education market.  It doesn’t care that Samsung etc. makes practically nothing or even loses money on them.

    Google makes their money on the data and ads.  Kids will use Google’s services like YouTube and that’s a huge money maker.

    Schools have a hard time buying pencils let alone electronics.  They’re going to buy Chromebooks over IPads.  But when the students go to college they want IPads, and they’re fairly affordable through wireless carriers.

    You don’t see business users requesting Chromebooks because the chain is broken.
    See the link in the post above. Google doesn't make any money datamining kids or presenting ads to them via Chromebooks for Education.  Other posters here have explained how Google is directly profiting from those Chromebooks, but you are probably right that they hope using Google products in K-12 will pay dividends later on when it comes time to choose products for themselves in their workspaces or for their companies. Less about today and more about tomorrow. 
    edited March 2018
  • Reply 36 of 129
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,453member
    foggyhill said:
    Google is doing fine with others using ChromeOS selling into the education market.  It doesn’t care that Samsung etc. makes practically nothing or even loses money on them.

    Google makes their money on the data and ads.  Kids will use Google’s services like YouTube and that’s a huge money maker.

    Schools have a hard time buying pencils let alone electronics.  They’re going to buy Chromebooks over IPads.  But when the students go to college they want IPads, and they’re fairly affordable through wireless carriers.

    You don’t see business users requesting Chromebooks because the chain is broken.
    Schools ares so cash strapped that neither Chromebooks or Ipads are really money makers. IT's more about pushing a different philosophy.
    Apple will push it's whole ecosystem, not just a device, into the schools; that's what they always do.

    BTW, I've used Gsuite a lot and don't know why on earth anyone would pick it over office, or office 365, it's pretty pathetic if you ask me.

    WTH are they even offering schools? Spreadsheets? Text editors I can build from spare javascript parts in a day. Come on.

    You can run Office 365 on a Chromebook if that's what you want to do. 
  • Reply 37 of 129
    techrulestechrules Posts: 53unconfirmed, member
    My kids school use to be all Macs and then the grade school iPads But about 18 months ago the last Macs which were in the library for AR at the grade school were replaced with Chromebases. Chromebases are basically the Google versus of iMacs. Middle and high school already replaced the Macs with Chromebooks.

    The school is now handing the kids a Chromebook starting in 6th grade. They now only have the iPads for below 3rd grade. But suspect they will continue to lower.

    The problem for Apple is the software used to run the schools is now Google Classroom and their other software.

    It is really hard to see Apple winning back K-12 and probably should focus in other places. Talking to teachers at conference and how they fell about the Google Ecosystem in school there does not appear much opportunity for Apple to win back. Or MS for that matter.

    When your own high school has replaced your product with the competition should have really made Apple sit up and realize they had a problem.

    "At Apple CEO Tim Cook’s old high school, they are selling their MacBooks to buy Chromebooks"

    BTW, do not think this is simply about money talking to the teachers. It is about the Google K12 ecosystem just being a much better fit for the teachers and students and the price is just a cherry on top.

    So the LAST thing Apple should do is lower the price. But instead they would have to make a better solution for the schools. But it is pretty late for the US and they would need to make it a lot better then what Google has to offer independent of price at this point. The problem now will be if Google starts marketing more outside the US. They have pretty much only focused on the US and even in the US they really did little K12 marketing. They won the space by word of mouth.
    edited March 2018
  • Reply 38 of 129
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 7,331member
    American kids who went to grade school through the 80s were mostly exposed to Apple II, TRS80 and DOS PCs. For anyone who graduated prior to around 1995, the details and brands of those ancient computers were largely irrelevant to their experience in the job market.

    A million times this. The Apple II and IBM PS/2 machines I learned on as a kid are completely irrelevant to my workplace or household today. 
    pscooter63thtnetmage
  • Reply 39 of 129
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 7,331member
    Latko said:
    The school market is a lost chance for Apple - as long as it doesn’t deliver on the need for deployment tools (device management, app/version management, content mgt., rights/access mgt.) and keeps denying the need for multiple iOS accounts. Cook & co don’t even understand the concept of double instance multi-tasking (2 Word/Excel docs at the same time), making their post-PC claims near ridiculous. So an iPad with a pencil (if it comes at a Chromebook ‘s pricepoint to start with...) basically remains an overpriced sketchbook - that will never see structural implementation by the lack of a supporting infrastructure (what did Apple’s cooperation with IBM bring in ?) A cheap repackaging effort that only underlines the lack of a broader understanding of the sectors’ device/content mgt. needs. Better stay out of this market - edu won’t match Cook’s premium financial prerequisites anyway and it would make Apple’s “thinking in the best interest of the customer” just a fluffy claim - as they only want to sell boxes. Chrome does that - at better price/performance
    Actually it’s you who doesn’t get it — “post” means after, not replace. “post-PC” simply means “what comes after desktop PCs”. It has never meant “zomg will replace all PCs”. If you had paid attention you’d remember Jobs addresses this specifically with the cars and trucks analogy. Most people only need cars, yet some need trucks. 

    They get multiple document windows, which is why they sell trucks in addition to cars. Dur. 
    edited March 2018 radarthekatnetmagepscooter63magman1979
  • Reply 40 of 129
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 7,331member

    Listen to Rene Ritchie’s recent Vector podcast with Bradley Chambers. Apple has work to do in the education sector. DED can spin all he wants but Chromebooks and Google’s G Suite are winning in the classroom. Probably one reason why Apple is having an education focused event. I actually don’t expect hardware to be announced at this event. My guess is it will be software focused.
    Define winning? Despite your predictable hurt over a DED piece, he again backs up the piece with reason. Market share without revenue and profit is not winning. You can’t not make money and then “make it up in volume!” That isn’t sustainable. As he cited, the chrome numbers are pathetically small, and ipad is certainly out-winning.
    pscooter63netmagemagman1979arthurba
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