Editorial: Bloomberg spins Apple's Event as a desperate, blind stab for cheap iPads in edu...

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  • Reply 81 of 129
    Dracarys said:
    Dracarys said:

    Listen to Rene Ritchie’s recent Vector podcast with Bradley Chambers. Apple has work to do in the education sector. DED can spin all he wants but Chromebooks and Google’s G Suite are winning in the classroom. Probably one reason why Apple is having an education focused event. I actually don’t expect hardware to be announced at this event. My guess is it will be software focused.
    I'd rather pull my kid out of school than allow the likes of Google to data mine them and turn them into products like they have almost all living people on the planet.
    Enough of the hyperbole. You'd rather pull your kid from school than to have them educated? Also Google doesn't data mine education Chromebooks, maybe you should actually ready their privacy terms for the education market. So maybe you should do some research and stop listening to people like DED who will spin anything and everything to favour Apple no matter what.
    Google doesn't data mine education Chromebooks? Seriously???

    Well, the EFF has a somewhat different opinion and you might want to educate yourself on their complaint to the FTC and their detailed report last year:
    https://www.eff.org/wp/school-issued-devices-and-student-privacy

    Google only uses collected data to ensure that the usage is proper, but they don't use it to sell ads or anything. It's very clearly marked in their privacy terms. 



    Sure they do. Until they decide NOT to.

    This is the same company that intentionally altered specific code to bypass tracking in Safari, and got fined by the FTC for it. What they told Safari users and what was actually happening were two different things. And you want to trust what Google says they're doing with kids education data?

    All you have to do is follow the money. Google makes its money on data, so it shouldn't be surprising to anyone what happened with Safari. Nor should it be surprising if something similar happens in the future.
    If Google is so evil why does Apple allow Google apps on the AppStore? 6 of the top 10 free apps on the AppStore right now are from either Google or Facebook.

    Strawman argument. Try again.
    magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 82 of 129
    gatorguy said:
    Dracarys said:
    Dracarys said:

    Listen to Rene Ritchie’s recent Vector podcast with Bradley Chambers. Apple has work to do in the education sector. DED can spin all he wants but Chromebooks and Google’s G Suite are winning in the classroom. Probably one reason why Apple is having an education focused event. I actually don’t expect hardware to be announced at this event. My guess is it will be software focused.
    I'd rather pull my kid out of school than allow the likes of Google to data mine them and turn them into products like they have almost all living people on the planet.
    Enough of the hyperbole. You'd rather pull your kid from school than to have them educated? Also Google doesn't data mine education Chromebooks, maybe you should actually ready their privacy terms for the education market. So maybe you should do some research and stop listening to people like DED who will spin anything and everything to favour Apple no matter what.
    Google doesn't data mine education Chromebooks? Seriously???

    Well, the EFF has a somewhat different opinion and you might want to educate yourself on their complaint to the FTC and their detailed report last year:
    https://www.eff.org/wp/school-issued-devices-and-student-privacy

    Google only uses collected data to ensure that the usage is proper, but they don't use it to sell ads or anything. It's very clearly marked in their privacy terms. 



    Sure they do. Until they decide NOT to.

    This is the same company that intentionally altered specific code to bypass tracking in Safari, and got fined by the FTC for it. What they told Safari users and what was actually happening were two different things. And you want to trust what Google says they're doing with kids education data?

    All you have to do is follow the money. Google makes its money on data, so it shouldn't be surprising to anyone what happened with Safari. Nor should it be surprising if something similar happens in the future.
    If Google is so evil why does Apple allow Google apps on the AppStore? 6 of the top 10 free apps on the AppStore right now are from either Google or Facebook.
    They've also welcomed Google ads into Apple News...
    and contracted Google to handle your iCloud server data...
    and agreed to make Google your Spotlight Search default provider...
    and agreed to make Google your default Safari search provider... 

     Gosh Apple seems to trust Google a whole lot, heartily endorsing them to their users. That Ericthehalfbee or Strangedays doesn't agree with Apple's choices is fine, but won't change Apple's decisions as they clearly consider them trustworthy and a preferred partner for some Apple services.  

    Unless of course those members or others think Apple sold 'em out for 30 pieces of silver instead,  but that would open up an entirely new set of trust issues. Yeah, I didn't think so. 

    Another strawman argument. Is that all you two have left?
    magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 83 of 129
    magman1979magman1979 Posts: 1,152member
    Dracarys said:
    Dracarys said:

    Listen to Rene Ritchie’s recent Vector podcast with Bradley Chambers. Apple has work to do in the education sector. DED can spin all he wants but Chromebooks and Google’s G Suite are winning in the classroom. Probably one reason why Apple is having an education focused event. I actually don’t expect hardware to be announced at this event. My guess is it will be software focused.
    I'd rather pull my kid out of school than allow the likes of Google to data mine them and turn them into products like they have almost all living people on the planet.
    Enough of the hyperbole. You'd rather pull your kid from school than to have them educated? Also Google doesn't data mine education Chromebooks, maybe you should actually ready their privacy terms for the education market. So maybe you should do some research and stop listening to people like DED who will spin anything and everything to favour Apple no matter what.
    Google doesn't data mine education Chromebooks? Seriously???

    Well, the EFF has a somewhat different opinion and you might want to educate yourself on their complaint to the FTC and their detailed report last year:
    https://www.eff.org/wp/school-issued-devices-and-student-privacy

    Google only uses collected data to ensure that the usage is proper, but they don't use it to sell ads or anything. It's very clearly marked in their privacy terms. 



    Sure they do. Until they decide NOT to.

    This is the same company that intentionally altered specific code to bypass tracking in Safari, and got fined by the FTC for it. What they told Safari users and what was actually happening were two different things. And you want to trust what Google says they're doing with kids education data?

    All you have to do is follow the money. Google makes its money on data, so it shouldn't be surprising to anyone what happened with Safari. Nor should it be surprising if something similar happens in the future.
    If Google is so evil why does Apple allow Google apps on the AppStore? 6 of the top 10 free apps on the AppStore right now are from either Google or Facebook.

    Strawman argument. Try again.
    gatorguy said:
    Dracarys said:
    Dracarys said:

    Listen to Rene Ritchie’s recent Vector podcast with Bradley Chambers. Apple has work to do in the education sector. DED can spin all he wants but Chromebooks and Google’s G Suite are winning in the classroom. Probably one reason why Apple is having an education focused event. I actually don’t expect hardware to be announced at this event. My guess is it will be software focused.
    I'd rather pull my kid out of school than allow the likes of Google to data mine them and turn them into products like they have almost all living people on the planet.
    Enough of the hyperbole. You'd rather pull your kid from school than to have them educated? Also Google doesn't data mine education Chromebooks, maybe you should actually ready their privacy terms for the education market. So maybe you should do some research and stop listening to people like DED who will spin anything and everything to favour Apple no matter what.
    Google doesn't data mine education Chromebooks? Seriously???

    Well, the EFF has a somewhat different opinion and you might want to educate yourself on their complaint to the FTC and their detailed report last year:
    https://www.eff.org/wp/school-issued-devices-and-student-privacy

    Google only uses collected data to ensure that the usage is proper, but they don't use it to sell ads or anything. It's very clearly marked in their privacy terms. 



    Sure they do. Until they decide NOT to.

    This is the same company that intentionally altered specific code to bypass tracking in Safari, and got fined by the FTC for it. What they told Safari users and what was actually happening were two different things. And you want to trust what Google says they're doing with kids education data?

    All you have to do is follow the money. Google makes its money on data, so it shouldn't be surprising to anyone what happened with Safari. Nor should it be surprising if something similar happens in the future.
    If Google is so evil why does Apple allow Google apps on the AppStore? 6 of the top 10 free apps on the AppStore right now are from either Google or Facebook.
    They've also welcomed Google ads into Apple News...
    and contracted Google to handle your iCloud server data...
    and agreed to make Google your Spotlight Search default provider...
    and agreed to make Google your default Safari search provider... 

     Gosh Apple seems to trust Google a whole lot, heartily endorsing them to their users. That Ericthehalfbee or Strangedays doesn't agree with Apple's choices is fine, but won't change Apple's decisions as they clearly consider them trustworthy and a preferred partner for some Apple services.  

    Unless of course those members or others think Apple sold 'em out for 30 pieces of silver instead,  but that would open up an entirely new set of trust issues. Yeah, I didn't think so. 

    Another strawman argument. Is that all you two have left?
    Isn't it always amazing, when a fact-laden article by DED get's published, the pro-Google troll army comes out in drives with as many straw-man, ad-hominem attacks they can possibly conjure up?

    I just had a LENGTHY debate with Avon B7 in another thread in where he staunchly supports Huawei's engineering prowes, and even though I completely proved all his arguments null and void, even going as far as proving they got a lot of their network knowledge by stealing from Cisco, he still came back with ad-hominem attacks and straw-man scenarios to try and claim he was right and history was wrong, what a joke these people can be sometimes.

    Good entertainment value though, on occasion.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 84 of 129
    I stopped reading right around "Google began dumping Chromebooks on U.S. K-12 schools over the last few years because nobody else wanted to buy them."

    I could stomach the slant presented through the rest of the article up to that point, but seriously?  This is straight up ignorant.  First of all, I would like to know how Google was dumping anything on anyone, unless it was dumping Pixel Chromebooks on somebody (which they never have), since Google doesn't manufacture any of the Chromebooks in question.  Secondly, if nobody wants Chromebooks, why has their marketshare been basically doubling year-over-year for the last several years?  And why has Google been spending so much time and effort polishing and improving Chrome OS if it's such a losing venture?

    This is Apple Insider, I get it, but please... at least don't say things so completely biased that anyone with eyeballs can refute them without even trying.  Unless this is the only blog your readers subscribe to,  you just come off sounding like a jackass.
    rogerramjetmuthuk_vanalingamGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 85 of 129
    anton zuykovanton zuykov Posts: 1,040member
    Listen to Rene Ritchie’s recent Vector podcast with Bradley Chambers. Apple has work to do in the education sector. DED can spin all he wants but Chromebooks and Google’s G Suite are winning in the classroom. 
    ANYTHING can win there, as long as its cheap as dirt and works nominally (notice, I did not say "works good"). You are asking Apple to go down in price? I thought that dead horse have been beaten to the second death by now...
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 86 of 129
    anton zuykovanton zuykov Posts: 1,040member
    jfanning said:
    Very American centric article, Daniel why don't you talk about the remaining 96% of the works population?
    Because the VAST majority of those 96% does not have the buying power to be the Apple product buyer.
    And for 70-80% of the lower income earners to become Apple clients, Apple would have to drop the prices so significantly, they would have to have negative margins on the products to do that (something like -60%-90% margins)... 
    In other words, that makes no financial sense to do that!
    That might suite Google tho, but not Apple.
    edited March 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 87 of 129
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,788member
    Dracarys said:
    ireland said:
    Is Google still data mining kids in school?
    Always.
    Wrong.

    Maybe you should spend time reading their education Privacy page: https://edu.google.com/intl/en_ca/k-12-solutions/privacy-security/?modal_active=none

    Another good read: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/13/technology/google-education-chromebooks-schools.html



    Thanks for that. Most informative. 

    Let's focus on the Google Education Privacy policy. It's very well done: the video explanations are something everyone should be doing, Apple included.

    And further down the page, we have  a series of links that explain things in more detail.

    https://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/?_ga=2.60939692.1259812913.1501530839-1800684438.1499263309#nosharing

    Interestingly enough, Google's No Sharing policies explains that they do, in fact, share your personal information:

    We do not share personal information with companies, organizations and individuals outside of Google unless one of the following circumstances applies:
    With your consent
    We will share personal information with companies, organizations or individuals outside of Google when we have your consent to do so. We require opt-in consent for the sharing of any sensitive personal information.

    Okay, so they do share, but with your consent. What else?

    For external processing

    We provide personal information to our affiliates or other trusted businesses or persons to process it for us, based on our instructions and in compliance with our Privacy Policy and any other appropriate confidentiality and security measures.

    And there is the problem: this is the exact same clause that allowed Facebook to share user data with a third party researcher, who then passed it on to Cambridge Analytics. And every one of those people had consented to sharing that information. Once Google has passed your info onto a third party, then what happens to it is out of their control.

    Okay, what else?

    For legal reasons
    We will share personal information with companies, organizations or individuals outside of Google if we have a good-faith belief that access, use, preservation or disclosure of the information is reasonably necessary to:
    meet any applicable law, regulation, legal process or enforceable governmental request.
    enforce applicable Terms of Service, including investigation of potential violations.
    detect, prevent, or otherwise address fraud, security or technical issues.
    protect against harm to the rights, property or safety of Google, our users or the public as required or permitted by law.

    You have to love that expression "good-faith". It covers a multitude of sins and get-out clauses.

    Anyway, the legal thing is fine, but the enforcement of applicable Terms of service covers the likes of insurance companies who will need your personal data, and companies like Equifax, who wouldn't know information security if it came up and slapped them in the face.

    Okay, what else?

    Well, back to the Education Policy page:

    https://gsuite.google.com/intl/en/terms/education_terms.html

    We have this clause, which usually applies to just about every service of this kind:


    1.2 Modifications.
    a. To the Services. Google may make commercially reasonable changes to the Services from time to time. If Google makes a material change to the Services, Google will inform Customer, provided that Customer has subscribed with Google to be informed about such material change.



    The problem I have with this clause is that, again, "commercially reasonable changes" covers a multitude of sins. Was it a "commercially reasonable change" when WhatsApp decided to go back on a promise not to share everyone's phone number with Facebook after they were bought out?

    What is "commercially reasonable" to a company that makes its money by harvesting data may be entirely different to that of a company that sells hardware.



    ericthehalfbeewatto_cobramagman1979
  • Reply 88 of 129
    Another horribly biased, condescending, one-sided article by Daniel Dilger. I couldn’t read more than 5-6 paragraphs before giving up. I am just going skip his articles from now on. 
    DED’s article is labeled “Editorial”. And as such, you may expect some bias, whether you agree with DED, or not. Clearly you do not. 

    For the record, I do. 

    However, I am always amazed by:

    a) the number of people who dislike DED’s articles, yet seem to spend so much time reading him anyway. And ... 

    b) how long it takes some DED critics to reach their conclusions that he’s “horribly biased” (or words to that effect). 

    I don’t think I’d call some DED critics exactly a “quick study” ...  and far be it from me to suggest some are mere trolls. Perish the thought. 

    -MAS 


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 89 of 129
    Little known fact. People don't use products based on what they used in K-12 or even college, they adopt technology they use from work.
    Martin57watto_cobra
  • Reply 90 of 129
    k2kw said:
    rrogifan_new said:
    This is true.    Usually when Apple is behind in something (their hardware is nearly always first rate) it because of Software (not bad software but just late or missing software)    That's why Apple's Siri trails Google Now and Alexa.   I remember back in 2016 DED there was a lot of hype about Alexa and DED would always say Apple was buying companies to put together a SIRI much better than Alexa culminating with 
    https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/01/07/is-apple-getting-siri-ous-in-the-face-of-amazons-alexa-echo .  The HomePod finally came out with better Microphones that help Siri some but at the same time many have noted new problems like the Siri HomePod not answering questions that can be answered by your phone Siri.
    That's a false portrayal of what the year ago editorial about Siri said, as well as earlier articles on the subject. Rather than saying that acquisitions would instantly erase any aspect where Alexa might have an advantage, it actually said, of those acquisitions that were just made:

    "That makes it a bit premature to assume that the barely profitable experiments in voice-first assistants conducted by Apple's rivals are winning or leading in any meaningful way, although it does allow lazy journalists to generate sensational-sounding reports. 

    "In 2017, Siri looks to be a key area of advancement at Apple."

    Including the "better microphones" that you sort of dismiss but is key to Apple taking on the only thing Alexa can sell. 
    watto_cobramagman1979
  • Reply 91 of 129
    jfanning said:
    Very American centric article, Daniel why don't you talk about the remaining 96% of the works population?
    The article focused on US K-12 because it was a critique of Bloomberg's article, which itself focused on US K-12 because that's the only place Chromebooks appear successful on any metric. This piece actually brings in the context of the rest of the world, noting that iOS beats ChromeOS adoption even across global education where Apple has not historically had as strong of a position.

    So it's really the opposite of what you said.
    watto_cobramagman1979
  • Reply 92 of 129
    moosefuel said:
    In regards to the eMate 300: that was probably Apple's most successful Newton product, so saying "Apple stopped selling it because its production wasn't sustainable." is not really correct. Apple stopped selling it because Steve Jobs wanted to focus the company on the core business, which was doing poorly because Apple had, upon ousting John Sculley, started licensing the Mac OS to clone makers in a race to the bottom. It's the Mac business which is more like the Chromebook business, not the eMate. It was nice to see it mentioned, though. There's a documentary coming out about Newton soon. You should Google it. ;-)
    What evidence is there eMate was either successful or sustainably profitable? 

    It was intended to be a strategic way to hold onto edu at a time when commodity PCs were dropping in price. Because it was only sold to Edu, it probably wasn't even trying to make money. If it had been profitable, Apple could have expanded sales outside of edu and increased volumes, helping things out rather than just losing money.

    Jobs killed not just Newton hardwre, but also pulled the freshly spun-off Newton OS subsidiary into Apple and scuttled it. Newton started licensing its OS technology before Apple licensed MacOS, and that effort was probably only capable of making money without much risk.

    However, there was the distraction within Apple caused by Newton, and there was a competition for mindshare and customer attention that it caused, distressing Jobs' ability to focus on things that would sell Macs (Mac apps, FCP, PowerPC and then iPod. With Newton still hanging around, even outside of Apple as an independent subsidiary, everything the company did would have an expected "does it work with Newton and is it better or worse than the Newton approach?" problem attached to it.
    watto_cobramagman1979
  • Reply 93 of 129
    There's no way Apple can beat Chromebooks in schools. ...  I suppose Google will always beat Apple when it comes to the low end products or services. Most people just love cheap or free stuff even if it's junk.
    That's also what everyone said about Google's plans for phones, big tablets, watches, small tablets, netbooks, notebooks, etc.

    That's kind of the point of the article.
    watto_cobramagman1979
  • Reply 94 of 129
    wizard69 said:
    Well i see DED is back to wasting bandwidth with a ton of crap that doesnt even touch upon Apples real problems in efucation. The number one issue with iPads is the lack of a keyboard which makes anything other than tribial text entry a psin. 

    The article was not an examination of Apple in education, but rather taking apart a false media narrative that US K-12 is super important that Apple desperately needs to drop prices to get in on this market. That's what it has the headline it does.

    Even so, the article specifically mentioned "features desired by educators, including the Smart Connector for attaching a non-wireless keyboard (that doesn't need to be charged separately) and Apple Pencil, offering a strong differentiation from other tablets." 

    watto_cobramagman1979
  • Reply 95 of 129
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 21,289member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Dracarys said:
    ireland said:
    Is Google still data mining kids in school?
    Always.
    Wrong.

    Maybe you should spend time reading their education Privacy page: https://edu.google.com/intl/en_ca/k-12-solutions/privacy-security/?modal_active=none

    Another good read: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/13/technology/google-education-chromebooks-schools.html



    Thanks for that. Most informative. 

    Let's focus on the Google Education Privacy policy. It's very well done: the video explanations are something everyone should be doing, Apple included.

    And further down the page, we have  a series of links that explain things in more detail.

    https://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/?_ga=2.60939692.1259812913.1501530839-1800684438.1499263309#nosharing

    Interestingly enough, Google's No Sharing policies explains that they do, in fact, share your personal information:

    We do not share personal information with companies, organizations and individuals outside of Google unless one of the following circumstances applies:
    With your consent
    We will share personal information with companies, organizations or individuals outside of Google when we have your consent to do so. We require opt-in consent for the sharing of any sensitive personal information.

    Okay, so they do share, but with your consent. What else?

    For external processing

    We provide personal information to our affiliates or other trusted businesses or persons to process it for us, based on our instructions and in compliance with our Privacy Policy and any other appropriate confidentiality and security measures.

    And there is the problem: this is the exact same clause that allowed Facebook to share user data with a third party researcher, who then passed it on to Cambridge Analytics. And every one of those people had consented to sharing that information. Once Google has passed your info onto a third party, then what happens to it is out of their control.

    Okay, what else?

    For legal reasons
    We will share personal information with companies, organizations or individuals outside of Google if we have a good-faith belief that access, use, preservation or disclosure of the information is reasonably necessary to:
    meet any applicable law, regulation, legal process or enforceable governmental request.
    enforce applicable Terms of Service, including investigation of potential violations.
    detect, prevent, or otherwise address fraud, security or technical issues.
    protect against harm to the rights, property or safety of Google, our users or the public as required or permitted by law.

    You have to love that expression "good-faith". It covers a multitude of sins and get-out clauses.

    Anyway, the legal thing is fine, but the enforcement of applicable Terms of service covers the likes of insurance companies who will need your personal data, and companies like Equifax, who wouldn't know information security if it came up and slapped them in the face.
    Apple says they don't share personal information either. Except when they do.

    The specific circumstances where Google will share personal information is presumably perfectly OK with you since it's identical to the circumstances Apple will share personal information and you're comfortable with their TOS right?  You went to a lot of effort to arrive at the same set of exceptions you were already aware was Apple claiming for themselves. I mean you were aware Apple also shares personal information weren't you? 

    So Apple will share personal afterall, but for limited reasons like these:
    Personal information will only be shared by Apple to provide or improve our products, services and advertising; it will not be shared with third parties for their marketing purposes.

    Advertising? Well ok, at least it's not outsiders. But are those really the only reasons? No they are not, you need to read on further down the page... 
    Apple shares personal information with companies who provide services such as information processing, extending credit, fulfilling customer orders, delivering products to you, managing and enhancing customer data, providing customer service, assessing your interest in our products and services, and conducting customer research or satisfaction surveys.

    Well that stills sounds OK, tho managing and enhancing customer data is a bit unclear. Sounds as if they're combining some different sources to build a better profile of you but who can know for certain. In any event you gave your approval. But that's it right? Well, not yet...
    It may be necessary − by law, legal process, litigation, and/or requests from public and governmental authorities within or outside your country of residence − for Apple to disclose your personal information. We may also disclose information about you if we determine that for purposes of national security, law enforcement, or other issues of public importance, disclosure is necessary or appropriate.

    Issues of public importance. Well that's a bit open-ended but probably understandable. But then there's one more fairly open-ended reason Apple might disclose your personal information...
    We may also disclose information about you if we determine that disclosure is reasonably necessary to enforce our terms and conditions or protect our operations or users. 

    That sounds like what you commented on from Google's privacy policy, having an issue with protecting the TOS, and had this to say about it:
    "Anyway, the legal thing is fine, but the enforcement of applicable Terms of service covers the likes of insurance companies who will need your personal data, and companies like Equifax, who wouldn't know information security if it came up and slapped them in the face."


    But NO, otherwise Apple does not share personal information. Not anymore than Google does. 
    edited March 2018
  • Reply 96 of 129
    mr lizard said:
    Addressing the Bloomberg article’s narrative around the Chromebook success story is fair enough, but betting against Gurman’s accuracy at what will be unveiled at the event is something else... we won’t know for sure until the event itself of course, but Gurman has a terrific track record at accurately revealing forthcoming products and event details. There’s a chance he might have this one wrong of course, but Gurman missteps are rare indeed. 
    False. 75% of what Gurman writes is a wrap up of what others have already written before, along with a few confident claims of some fact of little real importance, and some other guesses or speculation which are often incorrect because he doesn't really know what's happening in the industry. The entire package then gets hailed as a "scoop." This was another example of that. 

    Previously, he rewrote story of Apple's +year ago acquisition of LumiLED and the added the claim that Apple suddenly now designs its own components (along with the claim that Apple's never done proprietary displays before, when it has publically announced everything from new iPhone X customizations to OLED, the 6s and later with 3D Touch that nobody else in the industry similarly uses, to its unique timing controllers for iMacs because nobody else had even built screens like that before.)

    He writes up tons of bullshit and walks it back with it "might not work out this way" at the end. But more than claiming originality for rewriting things, and adding bog "scoops" like finding a registered name for a product, the most problematic issue with his stuff is that he invents and perpetuates narratives that are totally false and easily disproven. And that's what his article is pointing out. 
    watto_cobramagman1979
  • Reply 97 of 129

    This video clearly shows Steve Jobs' stance on privacy.  Contrast his views with that of Tim Cook.  If you listen carefully Jobs was never against collecting data.  He understood there are users that will give up more privacy in exchange for better services but they key is transparency: letting the user know exactly what you're collecting and what you're going to do with that data.  I hope the current Apple leadership is taking this into consideration because from the sounds of it, they come across as being data-phobic.


    Not true. Jobs addressed data collection extensively and made efforts to block third-party developers from collecting data on users a primary feature of the App Store model. 

    The idea that Apple isn't or can't use data to improve its services is a very ignorant media narrative created to make Apple look dumb and carry water for Googles surveillance advertising. It's not true.
    watto_cobramagman1979
  • Reply 98 of 129
    I stopped reading right around "Google began dumping Chromebooks on U.S. K-12 schools over the last few years because nobody else wanted to buy them."

    I could stomach the slant presented through the rest of the article up to that point, but seriously?  This is straight up ignorant.  First of all, I would like to know how Google was dumping anything on anyone, unless it was dumping Pixel Chromebooks on somebody (which they never have), since Google doesn't manufacture any of the Chromebooks in question.  Secondly, if nobody wants Chromebooks, why has their marketshare been basically doubling year-over-year for the last several years?  And why has Google been spending so much time and effort polishing and improving Chrome OS if it's such a losing venture?

    This is Apple Insider, I get it, but please... at least don't say things so completely biased that anyone with eyeballs can refute them without even trying.  Unless this is the only blog your readers subscribe to,  you just come off sounding like a jackass.
    "don't say things so completely biased that anyone with eyeballs can refute them"

    - this pro-Google edu statistics group reports that 90% of chromebooks are sold to US/  k-12.
    - Google doesn't manufacture hardware, but it does directly sell chromebooks, and to edu. That's why it has websites with buy now all over them.
    - "Doubling" in education is not that big, and Google hasn't been doubling. It's unit sales of all ChromeOS devices went from 5 M to 7M and then stopped growing. That's only big next to Pixel sales. It's not a significant market, especially for loss leader cheap hardware.

    You come off sounding like a jackass

    watto_cobramagman1979
  • Reply 99 of 129
    gatorguy said:

    Apple says they don't share personal information either. Except when they do.

    So those specific circumstances where Google will share personal information is perfectly OK with you since it's identical to the circumstances Apple will share personal information and you're comfortable with their TOS right?  You went to a lot of effort to arrive at the same set of exceptions you were already aware was Apple claiming for themselves. I mean you were aware Apple also shares personal information weren't you? 

    You have established a reputation for contempt for factually-backed, evident reality and a penchant for making huge unfounded claims.

    Carrying water for Google has made you very boring. You literally never say anything interesting or accurate because you're working so hard to back up a series of false ideas to flatter a marketing company.
    watto_cobramagman1979bestkeptsecret
  • Reply 100 of 129
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 5,273member


    tht said:
    Latko said:
    The school market is a lost chance for Apple - as long as it doesn’t deliver on the need for deployment tools (device management, app/version management, content mgt., rights/access mgt.) and keeps denying the need for multiple iOS accounts. Cook & co don’t even understand the concept of double instance multi-tasking (2 Word/Excel docs at the same time), making their post-PC claims near ridiculous. So an iPad with a pencil (if it comes at a Chromebook ‘s pricepoint to start with...) basically remains an overpriced sketchbook - that will never see structural implementation by the lack of a supporting infrastructure (what did Apple’s coopration with IBM bring in ?) A cheap repackaging effort that only underlines the lack of a broader understanding of the sectors’ device/content mgt. needs. Better stay out of this market - edu won’t match Cook’s premium financial prerequisites anyway and it would make Apple’s “thinking in the best interest of the customer” just a fluffy claim - as they only want to sell boxes
    The educational market is, and has always been, extremely price sensitive. Price sensitive markets aren't necessarily markets in which Apple should be attempting to compete. Apple makes aspirational devices and services. People who are used to using inferior alternatives should be desperate to buy and replace the old products with Apple products.
    I don't think the education market has always been price sensitive: there would never be a mac at school if this was the case. The comparison of Chromebooks to other devices misses two big points: Chromebooks are a network client for Google's education platform, which is superior to competitor offerings. Windows and Apple devices still sell apps on things, Chromebooks are access to GSuite for Education/Google Classroom. The other point is that Chromebooks don't require much expertise to look after. They are secure, they deploy and upgrade with no effort, they are interchangeable. To a school, it's the first computing platform that is as easy to use as a textbook. You just hand them out. But it's the first point. I live in Australia, have a child at elementary school and my son is at secondary school. The elementary school is on Windows, the secondary school is Apple: Macbooks Pros at school, personal iPads. But in 2017, both schools introduced Google Classroom and GSuite.  This is the beginning of the end for Windows in the elementary school. The secondary school is a performing arts school, and I think the Macs will survive there due to some special apps. But the requirement for iPads ... I'm not so sure that will survive.  Meanwhile my nephew and niece are at regional schools that have converted to Chromebooks, and two of my friends kids too. These are my anecdotes, but the latest ChromeOS market share figures show a massive increase in ChromeOS market share in Australian education, despite the five-year warning the incumbents had. This massive growth is from a low base, but it's exactly what happened in the US.

    As for tablets, I don't use my Android tablet anymore. I have a AUD $600 Asus Flip which is fast, runs Android and Chrome apps. This is why Android tablets are dead. Chromebooks are a much better value proposition. At my son's school, every child has a keyboard case for their iPad. It's not mandated, but they all come to the same conclusion about the advantage of a keyboard. This indicates a big problem for iPads in the secondary school classroom, in my opinion. When you see this, the attraction of Chromebooks becomes perhaps clearer.
    Thanks.... Well said!
    I glean from this two major points:
    1)  Chromebooks are cheap, easily deployed and maintained -- which makes the administration's job easier.
    2) They provide easy access to high quality Google Cloud apps such as Google Classroom which makes the teacher's job easier.

    Apple needs to approach this from the standpoint of the school rather than the student if they plan to challenge Google in this arena.  And, I think they need to:   Google is using this as a loss-leader to indoctrinate kids into THEIR eco system.
    One of DED’s points is that there is no such thing as decades long brand loyalty in a mass market wide sense, and this is the tech sector to boot. As has been seen already in the article and by others here, kids using Google’s hardware and services today may not be be using Google’s hardware and services 10 years from now.

    This is the tech sector, 10 years from now Google could be an also-ran and it’s some other company who is making all the sales. Maybe 10 years from now, the market will go towards client-side computing while server side (the cloud) is left to rust, ie, nothing but a commodity.

    For Apple, they are not going to win the race to the bottom, and the EDU market is basically the bottom. Apple isn’t even going to play that game. They will likely offer a solution that will deem as better for teachers and students. It will cost more to have. Apple is counting on it being good enough to carve out a niche on the high end, their usual market strategy.
    LOL....
    So there's no such thing as decades long brand loyalty?
    ....  Have you read any of the posts here at ai?
    ......... While there are no guarantees that doesn't mean there is no loyalty.  In fact:

    Apple has one of the strongest fan bases of any organization in history.
    And, the Apple vs Google rivalry has taken on religious fervor...

    So, do you have any valid arguments?
    edited March 2018 watto_cobra
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