Flaws in Apple's iMac Pro VESA mount fueling new episode of repair anxiety [u]

Posted:
in Current Mac Hardware edited May 2018
A video published this weekend shows another iMac Pro repair saga gone wrong, only this time the finger is pointing squarely at Apple, launched by poor design choices surrounding its VESA mount kit.

iMac Pro VESA mount


The video, by Quinn Nelson from Snazzy Labs, dives into a two-week repair saga of an iMac Pro. Apple's VESA mount kit is a user-installable part, necessitating the user remove the factory-standard stand, and replace it with the VESA mount.





Nelson wanted to get more pictures of his iMac Pro, and decided to reinstall the factory stand. In doing so, he snapped off the last screw in the mount, binding it to the iMac "forever" according to Nelson.

This launched the back-and-forth with Apple, culminating in one stripped screw ultimately leading to an iMac Pro replacement by Apple -- and all of it could have been avoided at several points along the way.

The installer did what he needed to do, and executed well

We believe that Nelson installed the adapter correctly. We also believe that he did absolutely nothing wrong when a screw-head snapped off inside the VESA adapter when he tried to take it off.

Nelson notes that the VESA adapter for the iMac Pro probably isn't designed to be a part that is attached and detached frequently. But, that's not really the point. Apple doesn't say anywhere in the documentation that the user shouldn't be able to take it off at least once without failure after installation, and a better material choice other than the zinc screws would allow for this.

Material science of screws

Ask any auto mechanic -- a bolt-head sheared off is a major pain. If a bolt's socket gets destroyed, that's worse. Maybe you can fix it with a thread chaser, but that's not really practical for a computer's screw socket.

Ask the same worker what happens when a stainless steel bolt or mechanical screw is put in a soft socket. It isn't pretty.

iMac Pro VESA mount installed
iMac Pro VESA mount installed


Apple, and other manufacturers, cut this risk by picking a material in a screw that is softer and more prone to damage than the socket is when a screw is cross-threaded, or inserted into the screw-hole, improperly.

But, this means that the screw's threads will deform, or the screw head will snap off if there's a problem. This isn't great, but is still way better than the socket getting mangled in the process.

Stuck screw in VESA mount
Stuck screw in VESA mount


Nelson claims Apple used zinc screws in the iMac Pro VESA mount. AppleInsider has tested one mount, and the screws are non-magnetic -- but not stainless steel. The possibility exists that different production runs of mounts have different screws in the kit, as this very article has comments in the thread demonstrating the magnetic nature of that particular kit.

Regardless, screws are picked to take the damage rather than the socket. They are literally designed to fail before the more expensive part of the assembly does.

Nelson mentions that it would only be pennies more per screw if they used stainless steel, and he's right. But, the same material as used in the casing isn't the right material either, given the risk of damage to the non-user serviceable iMac Pro mounting location during the procedure.

Apple uses similar screws in the MacBook Pro too. In that case, Apple acknowledges the single-use nature of the screws, and mandates a screw kit for technicians when a motherboard replacement is performed.

The supplied screws should have been somewhere in between the zinc that was said to be used, and the stainless steel used in the iMac Pro enclosure. The screw material selection is only a minor part of the problem in this whole saga, though.

Other problems with this situation lie at Apple's feet too

Nelson fessed up with Apple, and called the company and told them what was going on with the stuck screw.

He was told by Apple that the mount adapter is produced by a third-party, and is Apple-branded. Nelson asked for the vendor's contact information for support, and Apple declined to provide information on the manufacturer.

This is a major, major problem.

Nelson was directed to head to the Genius Bar for support for the product. After a two-week saga where Nelson had to actively pursue updates on the repair, he got back a damaged stand, and similar damage on the body of iMac Pro itself.

Damaged iMac Pro stand after the Genius Bar repair
Damaged iMac Pro stand after the Genius Bar repair


This is another giant issue, and a failure of customer service on multiple levels by Nelson's Genius Bar. Not only did the lead Genius who performed the repair botch the job, but also allowed the machine to be returned to the user in that state.

Damaged iMac Pro mounting location
Damaged iMac Pro mounting location

Apple blew it from the start

After the video was published, Apple relations caught wind of the issue, and issued a replacement for the iMac Pro. But, it never should have come to that point at all.

The first problem is related to the zinc screws. Zinc in screws by itself are not specifically a problem as there are some engineering and material benefits to them. But, telling the user very specifically in documentation that the VESA mount is not designed to be removed once installed seems, well, mandatory.

And, you'd think that Apple would design and manufacture the mount that supports a computer worth up to $18,000, and not leave it to some unnamed third party.

Next: user support for the VESA mount. It doesn't matter that the stand is manufactured by a third party. It is offered by Apple as an official accessory, and should be supported accordingly.

There is really no excuse for Apple to not offer support on the phone to some extent beyond "go back to the Genius Bar" for an Apple-branded accessory. Don't want to support it? Label it accordingly, and provide information to the user on how to get help if something goes terribly wrong.




Additional problems lie in how the Apple Store handled the problem. Returning a bashed stand and dented computer to a user when it wasn't in that shape when it came in is unacceptable, no matter how you want to look at it.

Apple got a few things right in this situation

Apple Stores only having one or two technicians qualified to work on the iMac Pro isn't the issue, though. While the prevalence of the iMac Pro among users is higher amongst AppleInsider readers, it is profoundly not in the general public.

So, the smaller number of techs trained shouldn't be a surprise, as it is a very small percentage of trouble calls compared to the rest of the demands on any given shop.

Nelson also reports that Apple has reached out and is replacing the iMac Pro in question, which is exactly what should have happened. He's concerned about what happens to a regular consumer, but Apple can and does replace hardware after execution failures at the Apple Store or multiple repairs -- but may be less aggressive about it unless consumers actively pursue the replacement.

Inexcusable, but the reality of scale

Nelson isn't wrong about it costing pennies to use different screws, but those pennies do add up to real money given Apple's scale -- and use of the same screws in other products.

The bigger issue of scale here is in service volume. AppleInsider's continued research on Apple's service numbers is showing a trend of the company's devices improving in reliability, and needing less service per capita than ever before. But, this per capita reduction is far more than offset by sheer volume of devices sold.

As a result, there are an order of magnitude more needs for service than there was a decade ago. Couple that with more venues for users to make issues known, and it can appear that Apple has a service crisis on its hands, when there really is none.

There are going to be cases like this that pop up, and there will be more reports of user-induced catastrophic damage and disagreement with Apple's service policies. Stories of mistreatment at Apple's hands make headlines, as evidenced by this editorial.

It's all part and parcel of the position that Apple holds, and how many users it has now. And, even as repair percentages go down as the hardware gets more reliable overall, it is only going to get louder with time.

Update: Story amplified with more information on the screws in Apple's VESA mount kit.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 53
    cpsrocpsro Posts: 2,449member
    I managed to remove the VESA adapter and restore the original stand without problem on a base model iMP I returned. But now I'm concerned that the same adapter (with the same screws!), which I've mounted to a high-end model, will cause trouble when I go to remove it, such as in preparation for shipping in the original container or for later sale. This could come after the AppleCare+ warranty expires in 2-1/2 years.  Will Apple cover a fundamental design flaw then? It's absurd that a VESA adapter would be designed to never be removed either.  IIRC the included manual includes brief instructions on removal anyway, which is tantamount to advertising that it is guaranteed safely removable.
    edited May 2018 aylkdysamoriabageljoey
  • Reply 2 of 53
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,680member
    Nelson isn't wrong, but those pennies do add up to real money given Apple's scale -- and use of the same screws in other products. 
    Sure, but how many iMac Pros will be sold? And how many will have these VESA mounts? We'll call that 'a'. Now how much more to get better screws would this cost? We'll call this 'b'. Is a × b greater than the cost to replace even this one iMac Pro? What about the bad press from this issue?
    muthuk_vanalingamjony0dysamoriamacxpress
  • Reply 3 of 53
    nunzynunzy Posts: 662member
    Apple chose zinc screws to protect the more expensive parts. They had good engineering reasons.
  • Reply 4 of 53
    So, long story short, Apple fixed the damaged device at no cost to the user, although not as quickly or painlessly as one would like.

    The details about how manufacturers decide on screw strength was interesting.  I've stripped or snapped my share of screws and bolts, but I hadn't really thought about why weaker is better than stronger sometimes.
    nunzyracerhomie3
  • Reply 5 of 53
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,343administrator
    So, long story short, Apple fixed the damaged device at no cost to the user, although not as quickly or painlessly as one would like.

    The details about how manufacturers decide on screw strength was interesting.  I've stripped or snapped my share of screws and bolts, but I hadn't really thought about why weaker is better than stronger sometimes.
    Our account on fasteners is (obviously) greatly simplified, and doesn't go into the different types of corrosions possible with dissimilar materials and other factors, but yeah. There's a lot involved in that decision.
    nunzydysamoriaracerhomie3
  • Reply 6 of 53
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 7,096member
    So one (1) case of this happening (to an apple-pouty-face video blogger no less) is now cause for "concern", blowing it, an epidemic, etc... Welcome to the internet generation.
    edited May 2018 lkruppjony0williamlondonRayz2016chabigtokyojimurandominternetpersonevilution
  • Reply 7 of 53
    gutengelgutengel Posts: 240member
    There seem to be a bunch of flaws from Apples part on this, starting from the design of the mount. As a mechanical engineer and designer I can't understand how the stand doesn't have any steel reinforcement and include weak screws to hold everything in place.
    aylkviclauyycdysamoria
  • Reply 8 of 53
    isidoreisidore Posts: 47member
    Well, I'm not an auto mechanic but I do have a PhD in Materials Science and a lifetime in engineering. The Rolls Royce solution (as in aircraft design, not fat luxobarges) would be to use a helicoil insert in the alloy body for the screw to screw into because any thread in an alloy part will gall, especially if it is assembled more than once. A cheaper alternative would be to use screws precoated with an appropriate lubricant, but zinc screws into alloy? That's something that even Ford would- or should- be ashamed to do. An Apple own goal I'm afraid.
    brunerdaylkstompydysamoriawelshdogaegeanchasmmuthuk_vanalingamjasenj1
  • Reply 9 of 53
    chris bchris b Posts: 1unconfirmed, member
    First time poster here, long time reader. Owner of exactly that same combination, hadn't gotten around to installing the adapter just yet. Posting here for two reasons - First, Snazzy Labs made a false claim, and you guys are regurgitating it and, second, the screws failed for not the reason he claimed.

    First, the screws are made of steel. I used a magnetic bit holder for my drill/driver and did not even have to touch the fasteners, the bit holder picked the screws with a small air gap. Second, the screws were difficult to remove because they have blue threadlocker on the first several threads; heat is required to soften blue threadlocker before attempting to remove the fastener - I'm not sure which variant of blue threadlocker was painted on the screws.

    I've been investigating material failures for a long time, however, I have been using blue threadlocker (and pink and red as well) for a long time. I watch the first 6 minutes of the video and IMO the YouTuber doesn't know how to handle a drill and likely doesn't even know what threadlocker is, let alone how to properly remove a fastener with a coat of threadlocker on it. The threadlocker on the screws is quite visible, I knew within seconds how the screws he was removing broke - my nitpick with the YouTuber was that he made up a crisis both for the incorrect reason and because he wasn't paying attention to what he was installing - one of my mantras is know what you are doing and what you are talking about, or find someone who does.

    On that last note, here you are, passing on an opinion without validating a couple of bits of his story. I debunked his claim about the screws in 2 minutes, happening to have a VESA adapter here in an unopened box. I have noticed Apple Engineering of the video and others propagating on YouTube, and that they need to address a paragraph on the last page of the instructions (it's in several languages) that does not mention the threadlocker and/or how to properly remove those screws. I've attached a photo with the fasteners in the box, showing two of the screws with the blue threadlocker and another screw magnetically "sticking" to my magnetic bit holder (to offer that the screws are indeed steel...).

    edited May 2018 brunerdjony0hexclockviclauyycStrangeDaysmuthuk_vanalingamforegoneconclusiontokyojimuwonkothesanerandominternetperson
  • Reply 10 of 53
    boboliciousbobolicious Posts: 516member
    ...as someone clinging to iMacs & 27" displays that had the original VESA mount kit, I've remounted numerous times as my professional customer needs changed...

    VESA seems so bloody basic, like non-proprietary RAM & drive options, multiple monitor inputs and with target display a wonderful differentiating bonus on the older iMacs...

    For those who have never used a 27" Cinema/Thunderbolt Display in portrait mode, I would highly recommend it...

    To me Apple is killing the Mac appeal by design, and unfortunately I've felt compelled to vote with my wallet...

    edited May 2018 dysamoria
  • Reply 11 of 53
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 4,498member
    I own a couple of late-model BMW motorcycles, and one thing that drives me nuts (pun intended) is the heavy use of one-time screws used all-over the engine.  They're made out of aluminum (or some other lightweight metal) and when loosened, must be replaced. What gets me paranoid even more is that they bolt on engine cases that do have to be removed from time to time, and the torque on those bolts are so minimal, I worry about breaking the screws inside the engine case.  I can sympathize with this guy.  He made an excellent video to showcase the problem that Apple has.

    If that VESA mount kit is an additional $80, there is ZERO reason - ZERO - why Apple does not include steel screws.  It's shameful for Apple to treat their pro users like this and I would be hard-pressed to believe that that $80 adapter actually costs anything near $80 to make.  Perhaps using the softer screws will mean the easier-to-replace screw will commit suicide by breaking first before ruining the threads in the adapter, but still.... no excuse.

    Apple has been receiving a lot of bad press lately for the way it's handing its customers, and I'm beginning to think it's rightfully earned.  When I bought my late 2017 MacBook Pro with Touch Bar, the F4 key would stop working whenever iTunes opened, or a video was played requiring a reboot.  I raised hell with Apple's support for a couple months as it has been a problem since the Touchbar was introduced in 2016.  They fairly resolved it 2 months later after laying waste to them on Apple forums.  Something is different with Apple now... They spend so much money on R&D, but Apple seems to be running dry on common sense.

    I'm glad they replaced this iMP.  Good.  I wonder if the price of replacing that iMP was still cheaper than just replacing all VESA screws will real stainless steel screws.  I hope Tim Cook sees this video and calls his engineering head and asks "WTF??" 

    Wow... just wow.
    Solidysamoriamuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 12 of 53
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,343administrator
    chris b said:
    First time poster here, long time reader. Owner of exactly that same combination, hadn't gotten around to installing the adapter just yet. Posting here for two reasons - First, Snazzy Labs made a false claim, and you guys are regurgitating it and, second, the screws failed for not the reason he claimed.

    First, the screws are made of steel. I used a magnetic bit holder for my drill/driver and did not even have to touch the fasteners, the bit holder picked the screws with a small air gap. Second, the screws were difficult to remove because they have blue threadlocker on the first several threads; heat is required to soften blue threadlocker before attempting to remove the fastener - Loctite lists as it first method as shearing off the fastener with the threadlocker, with about 500 degrees F of heat applied to soften the blue threadlocker.

    I've been investigating material failures for a long time, however, I have been using blue threadlocker (and pink and red as well) for a long time. I watch the first 6 minutes of the video and IMO the YouTuber doesn't know how to handle a drill and likely doesn't even know what threadlocker is, let alone how to properly remove a fastener with a coat of threadlocker on it. The threadlocker on the screws is quite visible, I knew within seconds how the screws he was removing broke - my nitpick with the YouTuber was that he made up a crisis both for the incorrect reason and because he wasn't paying attention to what he was installing - one of my mantras is know what you are doing and what you are talking about, or find someone who does.

    On that last note, here you are, passing on an opinion without validating a couple of bits of his story. I debunked his claim about the screws in 2 minutes, happening to have a VESA adapter here in an unopened box. I have noticed Apple Engineering of the video and others propagating on YouTube, and that they need to address a paragraph on the last page of the instructions (it's in several languages) that does not mention the threadlocker and/or how to properly remove those screws. I've attached a photo with the fasteners in the box, showing two of the screws with the blue threadlocker and another screw magnetically "sticking" to my magnetic bit holder (to offer that the screws are indeed steel...).

    It's possible that there are different screws in different revisions of the kit. The kit we tested are certainly not magnetic, and certainly zinc or something very, very similar.

    The Bluloc is a different matter. We talked about this in the piece, in regards to the screw kit for MacBook Pro motherboard replacements. Single-use screws.

    Certainly not going to argue about knowing what you are installing, though.
    edited May 2018 brunerddysamoria[Deleted User]muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 13 of 53
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 6,789member
    Well, Dell was always treated to outrage and condemnation by disgruntled users making the same claims of crapitude as this. Dell haters abound. HP haters abound. ASUS haters abound. Apple haters abound. Samsung haters abound. As the author says, Apple is now one of the big boys and the shear number of devices out there invites this kind of scrutiny. But Apple is a special case. The entire Internet is on a mission to take Apple down so these kinds of things get amplified to infinity. Here is this ONE GUY with a beef and the whole Internet piles on. This story is ablaze on ALL the Apple sites, fan sites as well as hater sites. One frick’n guy with one frick’n problem that was eventually resolved to his satisfaction and suddenly Apple is the source of all evil in the universe. Another day, another frick’n “Kill Apple” rampage. Guess what? I had experienced the somewhat same situation with my late 2013 iMac 14,2 in that the springs used to keep the iMac’s head up and positioned broke and my iMac’a head drooped forward without support. Being two years out of warranty I took it to my local Apple Store, expecting to pay for repairs. Nope, the repair was free of charge and my 5 year old iMac now holds its head up high once again. You’ll not be hearing any bitching out of me anytime soon and I sure as hell won’t be making a YouTube video and plastering it all over the world.
    edited May 2018 jony0williamlondonadamcStrangeDaysmuthuk_vanalingamrandominternetperson
  • Reply 14 of 53
    eightzeroeightzero Posts: 2,291member
    lkrupp said:
    Well, Dell was always treated to outrage and condemnation by disgruntled users making the same claims of crapitude as this. Dell haters abound. HP haters abound. ASUS haters abound. Apple haters abound. Samsung haters abound. As the author says, Apple is now one of the big boys and the shear number of devices out there invites this kind of scrutiny. But Apple is a special case. The entire Internet is on a mission to take Apple down so these kinds of things get amplified to infinity. Here is this ONE GUY with a beef and the whole Internet piles on. This story is ablaze on ALL the Apple sites, fan sites as well as hater sites. One frick’n guy with one frick’n problem that was eventually resolved to his satisfaction and suddenly Apple is the source of all evil in the universe. Another day, another frick’n “Kill Apple” rampage.
    "Don't hold your iMac that way."

    Seems oddly familiar....can't quite place it...
  • Reply 15 of 53
    raymondairaymondai Posts: 24member
    the problem seem not just those screws anymore:
    -made by an untold third-party = no support? or no information about a Apple branded product?
    (Does Foxconn is a third-party too?)
    -The iMacPro got even worse condition after Apple genuine customer service...???

    To me, replacing a new or refurbished machine is not a kind a customer service in this case, it is a compensation.
    dysamoria[Deleted User]muthuk_vanalingamurahara
  • Reply 16 of 53
    nunzynunzy Posts: 662member
    lkrupp said:
    Well, Dell was always treated to outrage and condemnation by disgruntled users making the same claims of crapitude as this. Dell haters abound. HP haters abound. ASUS haters abound. Apple haters abound. Samsung haters abound. As the author says, Apple is now one of the big boys and the shear number of devices out there invites this kind of scrutiny. But Apple is a special case. The entire Internet is on a mission to take Apple down so these kinds of things get amplified to infinity. Here is this ONE GUY with a beef and the whole Internet piles on. This story is ablaze on ALL the Apple sites, fan sites as well as hater sites. One frick’n guy with one frick’n problem that was eventually resolved to his satisfaction and suddenly Apple is the source of all evil in the universe. Another day, another frick’n “Kill Apple” rampage. Guess what? I had experienced the somewhat same situation with my late 2013 iMac 14,2 in that the springs used to keep the iMac’s head up and positioned broke and my iMac’a head drooped forward without support. Being two years out of warranty I took it to my local Apple Store, expecting to pay for repairs. Nope, the repair was free of charge and my 5 year old iMac now holds its head up high once again. You’ll not be hearing any bitching out of me anytime soon and I sure as hell won’t be making a YouTube video and plastering it all over the world.

    lkrupp said:
    Well, Dell was always treated to outrage and condemnation by disgruntled users making the same claims of crapitude as this. Dell haters abound. HP haters abound. ASUS haters abound. Apple haters abound. Samsung haters abound. As the author says, Apple is now one of the big boys and the shear number of devices out there invites this kind of scrutiny. But Apple is a special case. The entire Internet is on a mission to take Apple down so these kinds of things get amplified to infinity. Here is this ONE GUY with a beef and the whole Internet piles on. This story is ablaze on ALL the Apple sites, fan sites as well as hater sites. One frick’n guy with one frick’n problem that was eventually resolved to his satisfaction and suddenly Apple is the source of all evil in the universe. Another day, another frick’n “Kill Apple” rampage. Guess what? I had experienced the somewhat same situation with my late 2013 iMac 14,2 in that the springs used to keep the iMac’s head up and positioned broke and my iMac’a head drooped forward without support. Being two years out of warranty I took it to my local Apple Store, expecting to pay for repairs. Nope, the repair was free of charge and my 5 year old iMac now holds its head up high once again. You’ll not be hearing any bitching out of me anytime soon and I sure as hell won’t be making a YouTube video and plastering it all over the world.
    Not everyone hates Apple. Well said.
  • Reply 17 of 53
    The utility of alternating between a stand and a VESA mount will increase with 8K/10K displays. I trust that Apple is attending to this virtue as they design future products.
  • Reply 18 of 53
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 4,498member
    So one (1) case of this happening (to an apple-pouty-face video blogger no less) is now cause for "concern", blowing it, an epidemic, etc... Welcome to the internet generation.
    "Pouty-face"?  WTF?  I'm surprised that such a remark is coming from you.

    It's 100% a valid case.  A problem always starts with one person.  If you watched the video, the blogger did state that when he went on an Apple forum, there were other VESA users that experienced similar problems with broken screws.  

    I deal with delicate screws in other areas - my motorcycles use aluminum screws - and it's nerve-racking on how delicate those things are.  This is an area where I think Apple really needs to fess up and own the problem.  The way they treated the customer while his iMP was in the shop also was inexcusable.  
    Soliwilliamlondongatorguydysamoria[Deleted User]muthuk_vanalingamIreneWlkruppurahara
  • Reply 19 of 53
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,563member
    These are absolutely not zinc screws.

    They are either alloy steel, with zinc plating or a black oxide coating, or they are stainless steel. If they are magnetic, then they almost certainly alloy steel.

    Personally, I would purchase my own screws; why take a chance?

    https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-socket-head-screws/=1d2ka2h

    Get either a Torx grade 8 or a Torx 18-8 stainless steel, and don't use any thread locker, unless you have a speaker, or woofer adjacent to the computer. Even then, I would avoid it. If you aren't going to use a thread locker, put a little oil, grease, or even better, anti-sieze compound, on the screw threads; to prevent metal galling;

    https://www.fastenal.com/en/72/galling

    Finally, I would hope that the material is at least a 6061-t6 grade of aluminum, rather than a die cast aluminum or zinc alloy.


    willcropointrandominternetperson
  • Reply 20 of 53
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,343administrator
    tmay said:
    These are absolutely not zinc screws.

    They are either alloy steel, with zinc plating or a black oxide coating, or they are stainless steel. If they are magnetic, then they almost certainly alloy steel.

    Personally, I would purchase my own screws; why take a chance?

    https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-socket-head-screws/=1d2ka2h

    Get either a Torx grade 8 or a Torx 18-8 stainless steel, and don't use any thread locker, unless you have a speaker, or woofer adjacent to the computer. Even then, I would avoid it. If you aren't going to use a thread locker, put a little oil, grease, or even better, anti-sieze compound, on the screw threads; to prevent metal galling;

    https://www.fastenal.com/en/72/galling

    Finally, I would hope that the material is at least a 6061-t6 grade of aluminum, rather than a die cast aluminum or zinc alloy.


    Our kit is non-magnetic. A previous post in this thread has magnetic ones. We've updated accordingly.

    Regardless of the material detail, the overall point about the screws and the destruction of the iMac Pro by the Apple Store still applies -- and there are other issues, not the least of which is what we talked about in the last six paragraphs.
    Soligatorguydysamoria[Deleted User]muthuk_vanalingamlkruppwillcropointurahara
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