MacBook, MacBook Air or MacBook Pro: which one is right for you?

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  • Reply 41 of 120
    cropr said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    I am one of "the rest of us".  2018 will be the first year since I started company in 2012 that I did not buy a Mac for the company, because no  Mac fulfils the requirements for a rather standard 2018 software development machine: 8th generation i7, 16 GB RAM, 512 GB SSD and  a decent keyboard (the escape key included).

    The touch bar is just an expensive, non productive gimmick for software development.  When will Apple listen to its customers  and realize that a MacBookPro without a real escape key is a MacBookProAmateur

    The machine that approaches best my requirements is the 2017 non Touch Bar MBP.   But it is 45% more expensive and 20% slower than the Ubuntu based Dell XPS13 I have bought.

    If Apple would upgrade the 2017 non touch model to an modern processor and add the T2 chip without price increase, I would buy one.
    I’m a software developer and I haven’t had any trouble adapting to the touch bar escape key. It really isn’t that big of a deal. Overall I like the new butterfly keyboard pending reliability over time. So far no problems. 
    macplusplusStrangeDaysfastasleepwatto_cobrawilliamlondon
  • Reply 42 of 120
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,112member
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    With all due respect, I disagree.

    From all of my personal as well as 20 years IT experience, from a hardware perspective, it seems to me that Apple is targeting a narrow, niche market with their Mac lines -- which I find odd, since the hardware is mostly just off-the-shelf stuff available to most any Mom & Pop assembler.  

    MacOS and the Apple ecosystem are keeping the Mac lines alive. 

    I think, and I hope, that they can and will do better.

    Added as an after thought:   "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10?"   I suspect few would say "YES!"
    edited November 2018 jdw
  • Reply 43 of 120
    dougddougd Posts: 292member

    dougd said:
    I'm still on my 2013 Mac Pro.  Laptops just don't cut it for me
    Why are you even reading this article?   I didn't read it :)

    williamlondon
  • Reply 44 of 120
    19831983 Posts: 1,225member
    The 12” MacBook is a wedge shape too, like the Air, it’s not flat like the MacBook Pro’s...from what I see in these photos anyway.
    edited November 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 120
    Which one is right for you? Complex problem with a relatively simple answer: since a laptop is the most compromised of computers, buy the most powerful one, presuming that there will be less compromises on that. If you cannot afford that, then buy the next most powerful. But I absolutely do not suggest to buy a laptop for leisure. For leisure buy an iPad, and for "serious work" an iMac or Mac Mini. At the price of that laptop you envy you can most probably buy an iMac + iPad... Unfortunately I am bound to a laptop, because I need Java to use some security token for logins and for crypto-signing documents. I had purchased the most powerful of its time in 2015, an 15" Retina MBP and that machine still prevents me from buying an iMac or an iPad Pro. I cannot officially attach an eGPU because of TB2, there, another compromise (must disable SIP and use a script etc)... Unless your mobile work absolutely requires macOS (as in software development or as in fringe cases like mine) you don't need a Mac notebook. If you can buy an iMac or Mac Mini, and if you can port your mobile work to the iPad, then I suggest going that way.
    edited November 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 120
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,250member
    DuhSesame said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    I think you should be better off switching.  Ever since Apple moved to Intel, there's always a PC laptop offers more key travel, 2x more USBs with thicker, heavier and better graphics and cooling solutions, except no one is complaining back then.

    All in all, Mac communities today rather panic than seeing the truth.
    But switching involves giving up a great OS and ecosystem to get great hardware.  
    ... That's a problem for some.

    I have been wondering why Apple is so stuck on that extreme minimalist design?
    Is it that they're afraid to compete head to head with a "real" pro laptop?  One with a great keyboard and that is repairable and upgradable -- and that has ports people can actually use?  Maybe even, God forbid, a swapable battery?
    Give it up then.  Your definition of a "great laptop" doesn't equal to theirs.

    I already give the reason why butterfly keyboards and all thunderbolt won't go away, but you sure have the rights to ignoring it.
    edited November 2018 StrangeDayswatto_cobrawilliamlondon
  • Reply 47 of 120
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    With all due respect, I disagree.

    From all of my personal as well as 20 years IT experience, from a hardware perspective, it seems to me that Apple is targeting a narrow, niche market with their Mac lines -- which I find odd, since the hardware is mostly just off-the-shelf stuff available to most any Mom & Pop assembler.  

    MacOS and the Apple ecosystem are keeping the Mac lines alive. 

    I think, and I hope, that they can and will do better.

    Added as an after thought:   "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10?"   I suspect few would say "YES!"
    Crowds would cheer "YASSSSS!" because they get TWO laptops at the price of one ;-) Re: BootCamp...

    Back to the point, BootCamp reveals that Apple always targets the largest audience. Apple was niche at the 90s, we all know how that ended. Actually Apple may sell more Macs if Apple Stores display and sell Windows boxes and set the BootCamp at cost right there. Fortunately there are third party sellers who can perform such attractions.
    edited November 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 120
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,250member
    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Obviously that dead horse is still kicking.   People don't like to pay premium dollars and get second best.
    It's not second best if the first best is an imaginary Homer Car MacBook that doesn't exist. 
    All of these comment shows how bad the current Mac communities are, no one wants to give their real experience on hardware, but rather act as a commentator.  There are things that you can learn to live with it, and the new keyboard isn't an exception, I'm afraid many of the complainers simply don't have the guts to learn about it.
    edited November 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 49 of 120
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    Just because some people use SD doesn't mean it should be built into the laptop and the compromises that entails (everything costs something). I use CF -- why shouldn't that be built-in then? Etc... Nope. It's a specificity of use. Plug in a reader like CF prosumer camera users do. 

    MagSafe isn't needed with all-day battery life, and not worth the loss of a port dedicating to power. If you really need it, buy Belkin's magnetic adapter. 

    No LED light is not a huge deal.

    No glowing Apple logo? OK now you're just being an absurdist. 

    I'm not aware of the cooling problem. 

    I love thin, lightweight computing devices as it's easier to carry and schlep around. 

    ...Get a Dell, dude.


    fastasleepmacpluspluswatto_cobrawilliamlondon
  • Reply 50 of 120

    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    They aren't good points. They're grasping at straws by those who have a compulsive need to continually decry that Apple's offerings are tainted, as they fail to understand the reality of compromise in product decision making. Apple's machines are not, have never been, and will never be, designed for lots of ports and options which the DIY techie tinkerer enjoys. Most normals don't give a fuck. 

    Anybody whining about the LED charing lamp on a Dell? Or it's lack fo a "glowing logo"? For fuck's sake.
    fastasleepmacpluspluswatto_cobrawilliamlondon
  • Reply 51 of 120

    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    Insanity. You don't know Jobs, but from what his coworkers have written about him, he hated slots & ports. Absolutely hated them. Felt there was no room for customizable slots (ports here) in appliance computers.

    https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Diagnostic_Port.txt


    fastasleepmacpluspluswatto_cobrawilliamlondon
  • Reply 52 of 120

    elijahg said:
    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Yeah, moved on and adapting just fine to Windows. The worst result Apple could wish for.
    Edit: JDW beat me to it!
    Then surely Apple's sales numbers would tell this tale of DOOM! DOOOM and WOE! But...it doesn't. Oops. Just techie guys on forums crying in their cups...rest of the world is using these tools.
    fastasleepmacpluspluswatto_cobrawilliamlondon
  • Reply 53 of 120
    That is simple. The model which is the most easy (and cheap) to swap the battery. Repairability is something that is not mentioned here.
    Most people give no shits. You have to understand, being a DIY techie tinkerer is not being most people. I'm an enterprise pro, but I give no craps about that either -- that's what the shop is for. Just like I dont work on my own car, just like most people don't. Apple builds for most people.
    fastasleepmacpluspluswatto_cobrawilliamlondon
  • Reply 54 of 120

    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Obviously that dead horse is still kicking.   People don't like to pay premium dollars and get second best.
    They aren't second best. You just don't want to accept the things that make it the best and the compromises that come with it.
    fastasleepmacpluspluswatto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 120
    DuhSesame said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    I think you should be better off switching.  Ever since Apple moved to Intel, there's always a PC laptop offers more key travel, 2x more USBs with thicker, heavier and better graphics and cooling solutions, except no one is complaining back then.

    All in all, Mac communities today rather panic than seeing the truth.
    I have been wondering why Apple is so stuck on that extreme minimalist design?
    Is it that they're afraid to compete head to head with a "real" pro laptop?  One with a great keyboard and that is repairable and upgradable -- and that has ports people can actually use?  Maybe even, God forbid, a swapable battery?

    No. It's that they're building for a different set of priorities -- priorities you're quite clearly unhappy with. So that means you can either find other tools that work for the jobs you need, or you can complain endlessly. I see which route you're going.

    edited November 2018 fastasleepmacpluspluswatto_cobra
  • Reply 56 of 120
    DuhSesame said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    I think you should be better off switching.  Ever since Apple moved to Intel, there's always a PC laptop offers more key travel, 2x more USBs with thicker, heavier and better graphics and cooling solutions, except no one is complaining back then.

    All in all, Mac communities today rather panic than seeing the truth.
    But switching involves giving up a great OS and ecosystem to get great hardware the opportunity to complain.  
    ... That's a problem for some.
    (fixed it for ya)
    fastasleepmacpluspluswatto_cobra
  • Reply 57 of 120
    DuhSesame said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    I think you should be better off switching.  Ever since Apple moved to Intel, there's always a PC laptop offers more key travel, 2x more USBs with thicker, heavier and better graphics and cooling solutions, except no one is complaining back then.

    All in all, Mac communities today rather panic than seeing the truth.
    But switching involves giving up a great OS and ecosystem to get great hardware.  
    ... That's a problem for some.

    I have been wondering why Apple is so stuck on that extreme minimalist design?
    Is it that they're afraid to compete head to head with a "real" pro laptop?  One with a great keyboard and that is repairable and upgradable -- and that has ports people can actually use?  Maybe even, God forbid, a swapable battery?
    The “ports people can actually use” trope is pure nonsense. From a single one of those ports you can do like half a dozen or more completely different things without taking up the other three. Anyone married to two decade-old 5Gbps USB-A ports is no “real pro” no matter how much the braying neckbeards mourn for it. ONE MacBook chassis ever had HDMI, yet people act like it was there forever.

    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Obviously that dead horse is still kicking.   People don't like to pay premium dollars and get second best.
    It's not second best if the first best is an imaginary Homer Car MacBook that doesn't exist. 
    But it does exist -- it just doesn't run MacOS. 
    Apple is not going to make that for you. The sooner you realize that the better off you are just adapting to reality and realizing that these machines are not less capable and maybe you are by not finding a way to adapt your workflow, and getting on board with where the technology is going, because that’s where Apple is going too, with or without you. 
    Dear, you want pay 5000 bucks for a blingbling which serves no purpose for majority of its intended audience? OK, fine. Nobody else will, though. So, you're right, in your own reality.

    I'm quite satisfied with Dell XPS 15" hackintosh, with memory I can swap and flash storage that is not extortion, a dream apple will never deliver.
    Absurd nonsense. If that were true Apple wouldn't be growing sales and profit. People are voting with their wallets. 

    Hackintosh neckbeards aren't in the same market for actual products. Also, Apple's storage is faster than yours.
    fastasleepmacpluspluswatto_cobrawilliamlondon
  • Reply 58 of 120
    DuhSesame said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    I think you should be better off switching.  Ever since Apple moved to Intel, there's always a PC laptop offers more key travel, 2x more USBs with thicker, heavier and better graphics and cooling solutions, except no one is complaining back then.

    All in all, Mac communities today rather panic than seeing the truth.
    But switching involves giving up a great OS and ecosystem to get great hardware.  
    ... That's a problem for some.

    I have been wondering why Apple is so stuck on that extreme minimalist design?
    Is it that they're afraid to compete head to head with a "real" pro laptop?  One with a great keyboard and that is repairable and upgradable -- and that has ports people can actually use?  Maybe even, God forbid, a swapable battery?
    The “ports people can actually use” trope is pure nonsense. From a single one of those ports you can do like half a dozen or more completely different things without taking up the other three. Anyone married to two decade-old 5Gbps USB-A ports is no “real pro” no matter how much the braying neckbeards mourn for it. ONE MacBook chassis ever had HDMI, yet people act like it was there forever.

    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Obviously that dead horse is still kicking.   People don't like to pay premium dollars and get second best.
    It's not second best if the first best is an imaginary Homer Car MacBook that doesn't exist. 
    But it does exist -- it just doesn't run MacOS. 
    Apple is not going to make that for you. The sooner you realize that the better off you are just adapting to reality and realizing that these machines are not less capable and maybe you are by not finding a way to adapt your workflow, and getting on board with where the technology is going, because that’s where Apple is going too, with or without you. 
    Dear, you want pay 5000 bucks for a blingbling which serves no purpose for majority of its intended audience? OK, fine. Nobody else will, though. So, you're right, in your own reality.

    I'm quite satisfied with Dell XPS 15" hackintosh, with memory I can swap and flash storage that is not extortion, a dream apple will never deliver.
    Nobody else? Maybe you missed the earnings call, but Apple just had a record quarter for Mac sales. How it “serves no purpose for the majority of its indented audience”, I’m gonna go have to have another cup of coffee and think for a while to wrap my brain around that. My understanding is people use these things for work, like I do. 
    ¯\(°_o)/¯ 
    macplusplusStrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 59 of 120

    cropr said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    I am one of "the rest of us".  2018 will be the first year since I started company in 2012 that I did not buy a Mac for the company, because no  Mac fulfils the requirements for a rather standard 2018 software development machine: 8th generation i7, 16 GB RAM, 512 GB SSD and  a decent keyboard (the escape key included).

    The touch bar is just an expensive, non productive gimmick for software development.  When will Apple listen to its customers  and realize that a MacBookPro without a real escape key is a MacBookProAmateur

    The machine that approaches best my requirements is the 2017 non Touch Bar MBP.   But it is 45% more expensive and 20% slower than the Ubuntu based Dell XPS13 I have bought.

    If Apple would upgrade the 2017 non touch model to an modern processor and add the T2 chip without price increase, I would buy one.
    Enterprise software developer, here -- yeah that's nonsense. Firstly because I'd be crazy to use a laptop to develop on except when on the go, otherwise it's plugged into monitors and external keyboards and my code repositories, so lots of pretend-concern and pearl clutching here, spec chasing, etc.
    macpluspluswatto_cobrawilliamlondon
  • Reply 60 of 120

    DuhSesame said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    I think you should be better off switching.  Ever since Apple moved to Intel, there's always a PC laptop offers more key travel, 2x more USBs with thicker, heavier and better graphics and cooling solutions, except no one is complaining back then.

    All in all, Mac communities today rather panic than seeing the truth.
    But switching involves giving up a great OS and ecosystem to get great hardware.  
    ... That's a problem for some.

    I have been wondering why Apple is so stuck on that extreme minimalist design?
    Is it that they're afraid to compete head to head with a "real" pro laptop?  One with a great keyboard and that is repairable and upgradable -- and that has ports people can actually use?  Maybe even, God forbid, a swapable battery?
    The “ports people can actually use” trope is pure nonsense. From a single one of those ports you can do like half a dozen or more completely different things without taking up the other three. Anyone married to two decade-old 5Gbps USB-A ports is no “real pro” no matter how much the braying neckbeards mourn for it. ONE MacBook chassis ever had HDMI, yet people act like it was there forever.

    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Obviously that dead horse is still kicking.   People don't like to pay premium dollars and get second best.
    It's not second best if the first best is an imaginary Homer Car MacBook that doesn't exist. 
    But it does exist -- it just doesn't run MacOS. 
    Apple is not going to make that for you. The sooner you realize that the better off you are just adapting to reality and realizing that these machines are not less capable and maybe you are by not finding a way to adapt your workflow, and getting on board with where the technology is going, because that’s where Apple is going too, with or without you. 
    We have yet to see what Apple will do.   For years the MacBook faithful said iPad would never ever get a touchpad -- yet Apple added one with iOS12.   Because you're happy paying premium prices for second rate hardware and willing to adapt/downgrade to it does not mean that others are.  Have fun -- and enjoy playing with your dongles. 

    Personally, I have more faith in Apple than that.
    They let the Mac line sink into mediocrity.   I don't think it will stay there.  I hope it won't.
    They added a “touchpad”? You mean the keyboard trackpad mode to move the cursor when editing text? Not sure what that has to do with anything.

    It’s not second rate hardware just because you don’t like it, and I’m not downgrading anything. You sound like the PC people complaining about the Mac in general for decades, you realize that right?

    “Playing with dongles” just illustrates how juvenile people are about these things. When I added a dual DVI to miniDP adapter to my Cinema Display, I did it once and never gave it a second thought. I’ll do the same again when I add a USB-C adapter to the miniDP plug - do it once and forget about it forever and just get my work done. I literally have zero need for USB-A in my life but will probably get a simple multiuse hub for when I might in the future. Anything with a USB cable can just replace the cable with a USB-C. It’s simply a non issue for the vast majority of people. 
    macpluspluswatto_cobra
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