MacBook, MacBook Air or MacBook Pro: which one is right for you?

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  • Reply 61 of 120
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,144member
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    With all due respect, I disagree.

    From all of my personal as well as 20 years IT experience, from a hardware perspective, it seems to me that Apple is targeting a narrow, niche market with their Mac lines -- which I find odd, since the hardware is mostly just off-the-shelf stuff available to most any Mom & Pop assembler.  

    MacOS and the Apple ecosystem are keeping the Mac lines alive. 

    I think, and I hope, that they can and will do better.

    Added as an after thought:   "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10?"   I suspect few would say "YES!"
    Crowds would cheer "YASSSSS!" because they get TWO laptops at the price of one ;-) Re: BootCamp...

    Back to the point, BootCamp reveals that Apple always targets the largest audience. Apple was niche at the 90s, we all know how that ended. Actually Apple may sell more Macs if Apple Stores display and sell Windows boxes and set the BootCamp at cost right there. Fortunately there are third party sellers who can perform such attractions.

  • Reply 62 of 120
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    With all due respect, I disagree.

    From all of my personal as well as 20 years IT experience, from a hardware perspective, it seems to me that Apple is targeting a narrow, niche market with their Mac lines -- which I find odd, since the hardware is mostly just off-the-shelf stuff available to most any Mom & Pop assembler.  

    MacOS and the Apple ecosystem are keeping the Mac lines alive. 

    I think, and I hope, that they can and will do better.

    Added as an after thought:   "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10?"   I suspect few would say "YES!"
    Your 20 years in IT mean jack shit if you think Apple is targeting a “narrow, niche market” — you literally have it backasswards. Go look in an Apple store! Listen to the earnings calls! YOU are the niche! The sooner you realize that, the happier you’ll be. 

    Not it to mention the ancient trope that Apple just tosses together “off-the-shelf” parts that anyone could’ve assembled. What a joke. Do people take you seriously where you work?
    chiawatto_cobrawilliamlondon
  • Reply 63 of 120
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,144member
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    With all due respect, I disagree.

    From all of my personal as well as 20 years IT experience, from a hardware perspective, it seems to me that Apple is targeting a narrow, niche market with their Mac lines -- which I find odd, since the hardware is mostly just off-the-shelf stuff available to most any Mom & Pop assembler.  

    MacOS and the Apple ecosystem are keeping the Mac lines alive. 

    I think, and I hope, that they can and will do better.

    Added as an after thought:   "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10?"   I suspect few would say "YES!"
    Crowds would cheer "YASSSSS!" because they get TWO laptops at the price of one ;-) Re: BootCamp...

    Back to the point, BootCamp reveals that Apple always targets the largest audience. Apple was niche at the 90s, we all know how that ended. Actually Apple may sell more Macs if Apple Stores display and sell Windows boxes and set the BootCamp at cost right there. Fortunately there are third party sellers who can perform such attractions.
    I guess I wasn't clear.   Let me restate the question:
    "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10 instead of MacOS and part of Apple's ecosystem?"

    Would you buy it solely for the hardware?
    henrybayjdw
  • Reply 64 of 120
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,144member
    DuhSesame said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    I think you should be better off switching.  Ever since Apple moved to Intel, there's always a PC laptop offers more key travel, 2x more USBs with thicker, heavier and better graphics and cooling solutions, except no one is complaining back then.

    All in all, Mac communities today rather panic than seeing the truth.
    I have been wondering why Apple is so stuck on that extreme minimalist design?
    Is it that they're afraid to compete head to head with a "real" pro laptop?  One with a great keyboard and that is repairable and upgradable -- and that has ports people can actually use?  Maybe even, God forbid, a swapable battery?

    No. It's that they're building for a different set of priorities -- priorities you're quite clearly unhappy with. So that means you can either find other tools that work for the jobs you need, or you can complain endlessly. I see which route you're going.

    Neither,  I think Apple is stuck in narrow, restricted design and that they can do better.   I think they WILL do better.  
    jdw
  • Reply 65 of 120
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,144member

    DuhSesame said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    I think you should be better off switching.  Ever since Apple moved to Intel, there's always a PC laptop offers more key travel, 2x more USBs with thicker, heavier and better graphics and cooling solutions, except no one is complaining back then.

    All in all, Mac communities today rather panic than seeing the truth.
    But switching involves giving up a great OS and ecosystem to get great hardware.  
    ... That's a problem for some.

    I have been wondering why Apple is so stuck on that extreme minimalist design?
    Is it that they're afraid to compete head to head with a "real" pro laptop?  One with a great keyboard and that is repairable and upgradable -- and that has ports people can actually use?  Maybe even, God forbid, a swapable battery?
    The “ports people can actually use” trope is pure nonsense. From a single one of those ports you can do like half a dozen or more completely different things without taking up the other three. Anyone married to two decade-old 5Gbps USB-A ports is no “real pro” no matter how much the braying neckbeards mourn for it. ONE MacBook chassis ever had HDMI, yet people act like it was there forever.

    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Obviously that dead horse is still kicking.   People don't like to pay premium dollars and get second best.
    It's not second best if the first best is an imaginary Homer Car MacBook that doesn't exist. 
    But it does exist -- it just doesn't run MacOS. 
    Apple is not going to make that for you. The sooner you realize that the better off you are just adapting to reality and realizing that these machines are not less capable and maybe you are by not finding a way to adapt your workflow, and getting on board with where the technology is going, because that’s where Apple is going too, with or without you. 
    We have yet to see what Apple will do.   For years the MacBook faithful said iPad would never ever get a touchpad -- yet Apple added one with iOS12.   Because you're happy paying premium prices for second rate hardware and willing to adapt/downgrade to it does not mean that others are.  Have fun -- and enjoy playing with your dongles. 

    Personally, I have more faith in Apple than that.
    They let the Mac line sink into mediocrity.   I don't think it will stay there.  I hope it won't.
    They added a “touchpad”? You mean the keyboard trackpad mode to move the cursor when editing text? Not sure what that has to do with anything.

    It’s not second rate hardware just because you don’t like it, and I’m not downgrading anything. You sound like the PC people complaining about the Mac in general for decades, you realize that right?

    “Playing with dongles” just illustrates how juvenile people are about these things. When I added a dual DVI to miniDP adapter to my Cinema Display, I did it once and never gave it a second thought. I’ll do the same again when I add a USB-C adapter to the miniDP plug - do it once and forget about it forever and just get my work done. I literally have zero need for USB-A in my life but will probably get a simple multiuse hub for when I might in the future. Anything with a USB cable can just replace the cable with a USB-C. It’s simply a non issue for the vast majority of people. 
    That was weak.
  • Reply 66 of 120
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    With all due respect, I disagree.

    From all of my personal as well as 20 years IT experience, from a hardware perspective, it seems to me that Apple is targeting a narrow, niche market with their Mac lines -- which I find odd, since the hardware is mostly just off-the-shelf stuff available to most any Mom & Pop assembler.  

    MacOS and the Apple ecosystem are keeping the Mac lines alive. 

    I think, and I hope, that they can and will do better.

    Added as an after thought:   "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10?"   I suspect few would say "YES!"
    Crowds would cheer "YASSSSS!" because they get TWO laptops at the price of one ;-) Re: BootCamp...

    Back to the point, BootCamp reveals that Apple always targets the largest audience. Apple was niche at the 90s, we all know how that ended. Actually Apple may sell more Macs if Apple Stores display and sell Windows boxes and set the BootCamp at cost right there. Fortunately there are third party sellers who can perform such attractions.
    I guess I wasn't clear.   Let me restate the question:
    "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10 instead of MacOS and part of Apple's ecosystem?"

    Would you buy it solely for the hardware?
    You were clear enough, you just miss or ignore the bigger picture. No PC manufacturer can even compete with Apple in terms of hardware design, this is beyond discussion.
    edited November 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 67 of 120

    DuhSesame said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    I think you should be better off switching.  Ever since Apple moved to Intel, there's always a PC laptop offers more key travel, 2x more USBs with thicker, heavier and better graphics and cooling solutions, except no one is complaining back then.

    All in all, Mac communities today rather panic than seeing the truth.
    But switching involves giving up a great OS and ecosystem to get great hardware.  
    ... That's a problem for some.

    I have been wondering why Apple is so stuck on that extreme minimalist design?
    Is it that they're afraid to compete head to head with a "real" pro laptop?  One with a great keyboard and that is repairable and upgradable -- and that has ports people can actually use?  Maybe even, God forbid, a swapable battery?
    The “ports people can actually use” trope is pure nonsense. From a single one of those ports you can do like half a dozen or more completely different things without taking up the other three. Anyone married to two decade-old 5Gbps USB-A ports is no “real pro” no matter how much the braying neckbeards mourn for it. ONE MacBook chassis ever had HDMI, yet people act like it was there forever.

    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Obviously that dead horse is still kicking.   People don't like to pay premium dollars and get second best.
    It's not second best if the first best is an imaginary Homer Car MacBook that doesn't exist. 
    But it does exist -- it just doesn't run MacOS. 
    Apple is not going to make that for you. The sooner you realize that the better off you are just adapting to reality and realizing that these machines are not less capable and maybe you are by not finding a way to adapt your workflow, and getting on board with where the technology is going, because that’s where Apple is going too, with or without you. 
    We have yet to see what Apple will do.   For years the MacBook faithful said iPad would never ever get a touchpad -- yet Apple added one with iOS12.   Because you're happy paying premium prices for second rate hardware and willing to adapt/downgrade to it does not mean that others are.  Have fun -- and enjoy playing with your dongles. 

    Personally, I have more faith in Apple than that.
    They let the Mac line sink into mediocrity.   I don't think it will stay there.  I hope it won't.
    They added a “touchpad”? You mean the keyboard trackpad mode to move the cursor when editing text? Not sure what that has to do with anything.

    It’s not second rate hardware just because you don’t like it, and I’m not downgrading anything. You sound like the PC people complaining about the Mac in general for decades, you realize that right?

    “Playing with dongles” just illustrates how juvenile people are about these things. When I added a dual DVI to miniDP adapter to my Cinema Display, I did it once and never gave it a second thought. I’ll do the same again when I add a USB-C adapter to the miniDP plug - do it once and forget about it forever and just get my work done. I literally have zero need for USB-A in my life but will probably get a simple multiuse hub for when I might in the future. Anything with a USB cable can just replace the cable with a USB-C. It’s simply a non issue for the vast majority of people. 
    That was weak.
    Sick burn.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 68 of 120
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,144member
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    With all due respect, I disagree.

    From all of my personal as well as 20 years IT experience, from a hardware perspective, it seems to me that Apple is targeting a narrow, niche market with their Mac lines -- which I find odd, since the hardware is mostly just off-the-shelf stuff available to most any Mom & Pop assembler.  

    MacOS and the Apple ecosystem are keeping the Mac lines alive. 

    I think, and I hope, that they can and will do better.

    Added as an after thought:   "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10?"   I suspect few would say "YES!"
    Your 20 years in IT mean jack shit if you think Apple is targeting a “narrow, niche market” — you literally have it backasswards. Go look in an Apple store! Listen to the earnings calls! YOU are the niche! The sooner you realize that, the happier you’ll be. 

    Not it to mention the ancient trope that Apple just tosses together “off-the-shelf” parts that anyone could’ve assembled. What a joke. Do people take you seriously where you work?
    Yawn, wake me up once you think of an actual response rather than personal insults and irrelevancies.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 69 of 120
    What's the point of arguing, guys? Just comment on which MacBook you think is the best value.

    "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."- Dale Carnegie
    watto_cobrawilliamlondon
  • Reply 70 of 120
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,144member
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    With all due respect, I disagree.

    From all of my personal as well as 20 years IT experience, from a hardware perspective, it seems to me that Apple is targeting a narrow, niche market with their Mac lines -- which I find odd, since the hardware is mostly just off-the-shelf stuff available to most any Mom & Pop assembler.  

    MacOS and the Apple ecosystem are keeping the Mac lines alive. 

    I think, and I hope, that they can and will do better.

    Added as an after thought:   "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10?"   I suspect few would say "YES!"
    Crowds would cheer "YASSSSS!" because they get TWO laptops at the price of one ;-) Re: BootCamp...

    Back to the point, BootCamp reveals that Apple always targets the largest audience. Apple was niche at the 90s, we all know how that ended. Actually Apple may sell more Macs if Apple Stores display and sell Windows boxes and set the BootCamp at cost right there. Fortunately there are third party sellers who can perform such attractions.
    I guess I wasn't clear.   Let me restate the question:
    "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10 instead of MacOS and part of Apple's ecosystem?"

    Would you buy it solely for the hardware?
    You were clear enough, you just miss or ignore the bigger picture. No PC manufacturer can even compete with Apple in terms of hardware design, this is beyond discussion.
    From a hardware perspective --  these are good machines -- but very restricted.  The Lenovo Thinkpad line for instance walks all over it -- partly because they don't just offer a single model with different engines inside but instead offer a wide variety of hardware to meet every need.

    What Apple provides is good, even excellent -- IF you need a thin, light, minimalist design -- then pick one of the three because that's all you have to choose from.

    In addition, I choke on the fact that I have to spend a LOT of extra money to future proof the machine because I know I can't upgrade later if I need to.   What you buy is what you live with.  I suspect there will be more than one person who fills up the base 128Gb of storage and is shocked to find out they have to buy a whole new machine to get more storage.   That's just stupid.

    I think Apple can do better.  I think they WILL do better.


    jdw
  • Reply 71 of 120
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    With all due respect, I disagree.

    From all of my personal as well as 20 years IT experience, from a hardware perspective, it seems to me that Apple is targeting a narrow, niche market with their Mac lines -- which I find odd, since the hardware is mostly just off-the-shelf stuff available to most any Mom & Pop assembler.  

    MacOS and the Apple ecosystem are keeping the Mac lines alive. 

    I think, and I hope, that they can and will do better.

    Added as an after thought:   "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10?"   I suspect few would say "YES!"
    Crowds would cheer "YASSSSS!" because they get TWO laptops at the price of one ;-) Re: BootCamp...

    Back to the point, BootCamp reveals that Apple always targets the largest audience. Apple was niche at the 90s, we all know how that ended. Actually Apple may sell more Macs if Apple Stores display and sell Windows boxes and set the BootCamp at cost right there. Fortunately there are third party sellers who can perform such attractions.
    I guess I wasn't clear.   Let me restate the question:
    "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10 instead of MacOS and part of Apple's ecosystem?"

    Would you buy it solely for the hardware?
    You were clear enough, you just miss or ignore the bigger picture. No PC manufacturer can even compete with Apple in terms of hardware design, this is beyond discussion.
    From a hardware perspective --  these are good machines -- but very restricted.  The Lenovo Thinkpad line for instance walks all over it -- partly because they don't just offer a single model with different engines inside but instead offer a wide variety of hardware to meet every need.

    What Apple provides is good, even excellent -- IF you need a thin, light, minimalist design -- then pick one of the three because that's all you have to choose from.

    In addition, I choke on the fact that I have to spend a LOT of extra money to future proof the machine because I know I can't upgrade later if I need to.   What you buy is what you live with.  I suspect there will be more than one person who fills up the base 128Gb of storage and is shocked to find out they have to buy a whole new machine to get more storage.   That's just stupid.

    I think Apple can do better.  I think they WILL do better.


    That “wide variety of hardware” is called fragmentation in Apple’s parleance. This is a well known and accepted point. Chinese manufacturers can live with that, they’re state sponsored.

    Thin light minimalist design has a very simple and sound reason: heat. You must’ve learned that more than enough in your 20+ yrs of IT carrier.

    Apple delivers the fastest internal SSD but it doesn’t over-deliver by choking you with unneeded expensive power. Buy an external TB3 SSD, they’re always cheaper than Apple’s internals. Those who cannot digest this must first try to change their crappy IT world devoid of Thunderbolt. See the 12” Macbook: it has larger internal (from 250 GB) because it lacks TB3.
    edited November 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 72 of 120
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    They aren't - and today it was released that their marketshare has crashed in Q3 and overall in general. 
    I'm the hardest core of the hardcores of Apple faithful and I'm a hair away from abandoning them myself. If the next set of iMac's (now a year and a half without upgrade) is locked down with T2 (fuck you - pay me) chips - and next to no ports and garbage video card - I'm gone. I'm not going to wait to see what bullshit-out of this world expensive-100% locked down clueless 'Pro' solution they are going to have for me. Nor is any other business with half a clue. 

    And it won't just be me. I have a lot of clients who switched on my recommendation and to be on the same platform as myself for support reasons.
    They lose me - they lose hundreds of Mac's sold. Easily over $600,000 in sales over the next few years. 
    They lose the desktop platform, it's going to trickle down into lost sales on phones and iPads. 

    Their head is so far up their asses right now it's not even funny. They are so far behind they think they are first - and the cheerleaders here thinking there is some 'magical' market of loyalists outside of Professionals - that will replace the creative industry and small business... well, that's not going to end well. 
    Consumers follow the Pro's. Always have, always will. The mass migration away from Apple is nothing to celebrate - and it's happening right now. 

    They need to fire Ives, replace Cook - and start making quality products that people want again... not forced compliance locked in with all the gimmicks. 
    The direction is wrong. It's completely wrong. 
    This is no different than when Scully took over - and the same types (investors) who cheered him are the same shortsighted fools cheering Cook and Ives now. 

    I will tell you now, and I know I'll get scorched - but Apple is doomed - if they stay on this insanely greedy and narcissistic path. 

    Hey Cook, Ives... not every company is Pixar with hundreds of millions in the bank. Maybe come out of your tower and visit us commoners. 
    jdw
  • Reply 73 of 120
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."
    .



    No surprise coming from you, reading all your past posts. I wonder why you are still here?
    Soliwatto_cobra
  • Reply 74 of 120
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    With all due respect, I disagree.

    From all of my personal as well as 20 years IT experience, from a hardware perspective, it seems to me that Apple is targeting a narrow, niche market with their Mac lines -- which I find odd, since the hardware is mostly just off-the-shelf stuff available to most any Mom & Pop assembler.  

    MacOS and the Apple ecosystem are keeping the Mac lines alive. 

    I think, and I hope, that they can and will do better.

    Added as an after thought:   "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10?"   I suspect few would say "YES!"
    Truth. The reason Professionals and Small Business are concerned is the hardware is dying a slow agonizing death - and the only alternative is Windoze. Mac OS is the life-support of Apple. Steve knew this and stated it many times. Only he paired it with solid design, functionality, quality, and user experience on the hardware side.

    I don't want to use Windoze, nobody 'wants' to use Windoze. That's why the Pro's and small business are emotional about it. A lot at stake when it's something you have to use every day for your livelihood. 

    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 75 of 120
    GeorgeBMac asked the KEY question here, which is "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10 instead of MacOS and part of Apple's ecosystem?"

    The answer for most people is probably NO. This is why we should be circumspect about the relatively buoyant sales figures for MacBooks, which are boosted by the fact people are locked into the Apple ecosystem.

    In fact, this ecosystem advantage has enabled Apple to get away with some terrible design decision (including the atrocious ultra shallow butterfly keyboards). 

    Worst of all, the successful ecosystem has blinded Apple executives to weaknesses of their hardware. They assume, ‘Wow, look at the sales - people must love our hardware!’ When the reality is that software innovation has been driving Apple for years now. 


    edited November 2018 jdwGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 76 of 120
    jdwjdw Posts: 1,017member
    Look, I've been using Macs since they had 9" B&W screens too. I'd gladly take four 40Gbps TB3 ports in the fastest MacBook Pro ever made over some random bespoke ports in a heartbeat, and yeah I'm about to drop $5K on one because it will make my life better as a result, because it's a tool I use to get work done. I cannot wait to get rid of all my shitty USB-A cords and replace them with USB-C, recycle my Firewire devices and get a little portable hub for the odd times I need random shit like an SD card reader or USB-A port or ethernet. It's really not that big of a deal, and I would never refer to them as "stripped down" or gutted by any means. There are very simple solutions for people who need legacy connectors, but there's absolutely no reason you need a built-in USB-A port in 2018. 

    And you don't know what Jobs would've done, he was the one who ripped out all the legacy ports and switched to USB-A, it's hard to imagine he'd not be more or less doing exactly what they're doing right now for the same reasons he did back then.
    Funny you mention the 5K iMac.  I am typing this post on one right now and admit to everyone it's the best Mac.  Why?  Because even the iMac Pro has USB-A (Ha!) and an SD Card Slot (Ha!), along with USB-C and other goodies that really do satisfy pros and prosumers.  But that's not what I've been talking about.  I've been focused on mobile Macs -- the MacBooks.  Just because you've been using Macs as long as I have (I having used them since early 1984) doesn't mean you and I are the same.  Indeed, you and I are worlds apart.  Your missing the point.

    I too am happy to take USB-C/TB3 ports, but it's still not time to eliminate USB-A. Apple should have made a BRIDGE machine with both types of ports on the same machine.  It is possible on the 15" model with plenty of space, but their extremist quest for over-simplification led them to slash-and-burn port practicality.  FURTHERMORE, USB-C is a smaller port that isn't quite a secure relative to USB-A.  I know this from practical experience, and others who have used Apple's USB-C Macs have complained about the same.  Even on my mid-2015 MBP 15", I find the TB2 ports to be so small the connectors wobble a bit and my external display goes dark.  It was for that very reason I bought a USB-A-to-Ethernet adapter (yes, a stupid dongle) rather than a TB2-to-Ethernet adapter.  USB-A ports are rock solid.  And despite some people hating them, I assure you they will be around 10 years hence.  USB-C really hasn't picked up that much traction since Apple introduced it.  That shows just how widely used and loved USB-A is, and how stubborn most people are to switch to something new.  And again, newer is NOT always "better" when it comes to port size and connector stability.  USB-C also has problems in terms of what technologies it may or may not support, causing confusion on the part of the end user.  That's probably why it's called USB-C, where the C = Confusion.

    You say "it's not a big deal" for YOU to get a hub or some other third party USB-C-to-Something-Else converter.  Fine.  Get a MacBook.  Get a MacBook Air.  WHY MUST APPLE APPEAL TO YOU WITH THE MACBOOK PRO TOO?  It makes zero sense to me.  Zero.  Apple has 3 notebook lines, and they bastardized them all!  How stupid is that?!  They should have stripped away all the goodness from the MacBook (actually they have) and the MacBook Air (actually they have) for people such as yourself who live on the bleeding edge and care little about anything other than USB-C, and Apple should have left all the goodness like the SD card slot and at least one USB-A port, good keyboard, etc. for The Rest of Us in the MacBook they laughably now call "Pro."

    It doesn't matter to me "what Steve Jobs would have done."  Indeed, one of the best vintage/classic 9" B&W CRT Macs is the SE/30 which was created after Jobs was axed.  I liked many things about Jobs and disliked many things.  I even sent him email from time to time.  And if you look at my bookcase, I have just about every book on Apple and Jobs written.  But that doesn't matter when it comes to my computing needs, and the fact that I am a MacOS exclusive guy whose not going to switch to Windows.  I'll build a Hackintosh before considering a switch to Windows.  It's just that when it comes to notebooks, I would prefer a machine build by Apple, yet one feature rich enough to cater to my needs.

    It's always at this point someone then comes along bashing (e.g., Strange Days, Kevin Kee, Bestkeptsecret & Co.) me by saying, "Hey man.  It doesn't matter what YOU think because Apple is making money hand over fist doing it their own way.  They know better than you on all points."  To which I can only reply (and to Mike W.), "Oh yeah?"


    Sometimes I wonder if Apple had a plan all along to bastardize the Mac so as to drive down sales to such a point where they could just axe it and replace it with the iPad.  Seriously.  And add to all that my AAPL shares have really tanked of late.  I'm not too pleased with Cupertino at the moment.  And to the shock and dismay of those of you who are pleased, bear in mind I am not alone.  I am NOT alone.

    Kudos, GeorgeBMac, as well as to MplsP, Elijahg, and Henrybay.  We are on the same page being die-hard Mac users who don't do Windoze, but the naysaying Cupertino worshippers still tell us to get a Windoze machine.  Some Mac lovers would worship Apple branded toilet paper if it sold in a gold package for $500.  The Rest of Us are a bit more savvy and sassy than that.  Indeed, we are the ones our fellow Mac users now call the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes… the ones who see things differently.  Our fellow Mac users quote us, disagree with us and vilify us, and they even try to ignore us.  But ultimately, they fear us because we just might change things.  And it is change, which isn't inseparably tied to USB-C, that pushes the human race forward.  While some Cupertino-worshippers may see us as the crazy ones, we practical Mac users know better.  Because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world of Apple, are occasionally the ones who do.

    P.S., Vadim, I love your videos and those of Max.  But you ought know the answer to your question about "arguing."  If Apple were on the right track, there would be next to no arguing.  I remember those days.  They did exist at one point in the past -- albeit back in the days when I was on Guy Kawasaki's EvangeList. :-) 



    edited November 2018 GeorgeBMacwilliamlondon
  • Reply 77 of 120
    chiachia Posts: 712member
    This article on which Mac portable is exactly what I needed.  I am in the market for a new Mac after long making do with a very old Aluminium Unibody MacBook.  I'm finding it quite difficult to decide which portable to go for, I have to think in terms of workflows and it's a pretty mixed bag of document audio and video creation/editing together with some iOS development as I become more proficient.

    I am finding quite difficult to choose between the MacBook Air and the 13 inch MacBook Pro with TouchBar, which was my initial intention to purchase before seeing the new iPad Pros.  Now I'm mulling over the idea of getting a MacBook Air for the "desktop apps" and video editing in combination with an iPad Pro for the document review, creation and editing.  I'm inclined to sticking to my original choice and adding an iPad Pro but that will be really stretching my budget, more so when thinking of how much RAM and storage to get.  I've noticed the London Apple stores don't appear to keep 16GB 13 inch MacBook pros in stock.

    I'm somewhat unsettled by the barrage of grumbling about the lack of USB-A; the Thunderbolt 3 ports are far more versatile, unlike USB-A you can have any port you need, be it Power, display, USB or even a combination with a mere change of cable at worst.

    The grumbling about Thunderbolt 3 ports is an ironic mirror of people grumbling when in 1997 the first iMac only had strange new ports called USB and none of the legacy serial or SCSI ports from previous Macs.  Six to seven years later those legacy ports were forgotten as the vast majority of computers were using USB ports.
    20 years later and the availability of USB-C connectors and cables is much better now in comparison to availability of USB cables and peripherals for the first iMac:  Four/five years from now people will be scratching their heads as to why some were so desperate to hold onto USB-A ports.

    macpluspluswatto_cobra
  • Reply 78 of 120
    eightzeroeightzero Posts: 2,658member
    TL;DR. Answer to the headline question is easy: 

    "All."

    edited November 2018 GeorgeBMacwatto_cobra
  • Reply 79 of 120
    Sadly none are the best for me either. 

    Too many compromises on each model for the relatively exorbitant prices. 
    Bad keyboards, limited ports, a difficult to explain poor choice in screen (Air) - quite dim, price options for upgrading memory and disk are daylight robbery. 

    After much deliberation ,my 2013 MBP isn’t getting upgraded any time soon. 

    Im not sure Apple and I see the future the same way any more. But hey, they seem to be selling lots of them to the coffee shop crowds. 

    People can can dismiss the keyboard issue but nobody can deny there are a volume of people who hate it. (And for Apple to ignore them says one thing plus the fact there are a volume of people making noise about the keyboard also tells you it’s a polarising design - no computer maker should want or have to keep justifying a keyboard design choice- no other vendor has to like Apple does. Wish they could admit their mistake here.  )

    Good article though. Appreciated the comparison.  
    GeorgeBMacwilliamlondonjdw
  • Reply 80 of 120
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    With all due respect, I disagree.

    From all of my personal as well as 20 years IT experience, from a hardware perspective, it seems to me that Apple is targeting a narrow, niche market with their Mac lines -- which I find odd, since the hardware is mostly just off-the-shelf stuff available to most any Mom & Pop assembler.  

    MacOS and the Apple ecosystem are keeping the Mac lines alive. 

    I think, and I hope, that they can and will do better.

    Added as an after thought:   "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10?"   I suspect few would say "YES!"
    Crowds would cheer "YASSSSS!" because they get TWO laptops at the price of one ;-) Re: BootCamp...

    Back to the point, BootCamp reveals that Apple always targets the largest audience. Apple was niche at the 90s, we all know how that ended. Actually Apple may sell more Macs if Apple Stores display and sell Windows boxes and set the BootCamp at cost right there. Fortunately there are third party sellers who can perform such attractions.
    I guess I wasn't clear.   Let me restate the question:
    "Would you buy a MacBook if it was running Windows 10 instead of MacOS and part of Apple's ecosystem?"

    Would you buy it solely for the hardware?
    You were clear enough, you just miss or ignore the bigger picture. No PC manufacturer can even compete with Apple in terms of hardware design, this is beyond discussion.
    From a hardware perspective --  these are good machines -- but very restricted.  The Lenovo Thinkpad line for instance walks all over it -- partly because they don't just offer a single model with different engines inside but instead offer a wide variety of hardware to meet every need.

    What Apple provides is good, even excellent -- IF you need a thin, light, minimalist design -- then pick one of the three because that's all you have to choose from.

    In addition, I choke on the fact that I have to spend a LOT of extra money to future proof the machine because I know I can't upgrade later if I need to.   What you buy is what you live with.  I suspect there will be more than one person who fills up the base 128Gb of storage and is shocked to find out they have to buy a whole new machine to get more storage.   That's just stupid.

    I think Apple can do better.  I think they WILL do better.


    That “wide variety of hardware” is called fragmentation in Apple’s parleance. This is a well known and accepted point. Chinese manufacturers can live with that, they’re state sponsored.

    Thin light minimalist design has a very simple and sound reason: heat. You must’ve learned that more than enough in your 20+ yrs of IT carrier.

    Apple delivers the fastest internal SSD but it doesn’t over-deliver by choking you with unneeded expensive power. Buy an external TB3 SSD, they’re always cheaper than Apple’s internals. Those who cannot digest this must first try to change their crappy IT world devoid of Thunderbolt. See the 12” Macbook: it has larger internal (from 250 GB) because it lacks TB3.
    I can't find a single thing you said that I can agree with. 
    (Well, they do solder in a fast SSD -- but to me the mere act of soldering it is a negative)
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