We've been told by Apple staff in service situations that there are data recovery options, without identifying as AppleInsider staff in any way. And, our genius bars that are local routinely tell customers that there are options. The CBC's sample of one service contact online saying so is hardly due diligence, the same way that they cited one Genius at an Apple Store about a repair price.
This is a point that is worth addressing in the piece itself, so I thank you for pointing it out.
They don't just make stuff up on the spot, Apple "Genius" bar staff are given scripts and training to read which is said there and then, anything made on the forum is permanent and can be viewed by anyone else Googling for the same issue when they come across the response. "We've been told by Apple staff in service situations that there are data recovery options", what data recovery options, where's your proof?
They don't just make stuff up on the spot, Apple "Genius" bar staff are given scripts and training to read which is said there and then, anything made on the forum is permanent and can be viewed by anyone else Googling for the same issue when they come across the response. "We've been told by Apple staff in service situations that there are data recovery options", what data recovery options, where's your proof?
Read the rest of the forum thread, including Mrs. Jones own comments in it. There are several on the first page alone that talk about it.
Small sampling: posts 11, 25, and 38, with 38 being Jones' remarks about getting referrals from there.
Apple has never did board level repair or data recovery, they always directed customers to 3rd party repair facilities that can do data recovery or board level repair.
I worked at the one 1st retail store that sold apple computers(before apple opened their own stores) and we were an apple authorized repair facility and they had us recomend 3rd party data recovery.
So to say the issue is apple not providing board level repair or data recovery in every apple store...that is preposterous.
Their support forums are full of self righteous egotistical moderators that delete posts that contradict them
Who suggested that those comments were officially from Apple? The response being criticized is removal of posts and banning of accounts for correcting those comments.
Who want's Apple to do board repairs in stores? People want Apple to stop going out of their way to stop other people from doing repairs and to stop telling people repairs are impossible. Apple can say they can't do it, that they wont help, that they don't recommend it, just don't lie or hide the truth.
This issue is unbelievably out of control, i've never seen something to anti-consumer with so many of said consumers in support of it.
And, there is no "f'up" here. Feel free to read the article in full,
Sure there is -- I read the article before commenting.
Your article did not address the issues brought up by the CBC video -- you simply presented non-related facts to try & sidetrack the issue.
But, you got caught. Like I said, it wouldn't have blown up in your face like this if you handled it like an adult. The worst thing you did was link to Louis -- he tore your article to shreds.
Apple has no policy to tell customers that there is no hope for lost data.
Apple has no policy about telling users that their data is gone forever
And yet apple employees and forum admins may tell you otherwise. There is a lot of discrepancy between what you state Mike and what actually happens.
The biggest point of the whole story is that apple seems to be a corporation that cares more about selling you a new phone than recovering a picture of your baby. I would feel bad about associating myself with that kind of company.
And, there is no "f'up" here. Feel free to read the article in full,
Sure there is -- I read the article before commenting.
Your article did not address the issues brought up by the CBC video -- you simply presented non-related facts to try & sidetrack the issue.
But, you got caught. Like I said, it wouldn't have blown up in your face like this if you handled it like an adult. The worst thing you did was link to Louis -- he tore your article to shreds.
Huh, You left off the rest of the sentence in the forum post that disproves what you're saying here. I'l reiterate it, again, since you don't seem to think that it's important.
Apple has no policy to tell users that data is gone forever and in fact, they do direct users to data recovery centers and have done so, consistently, for years. Also in fact, they've directed users to Mrs. Jones' shop, as she's confirmed right here, in the forums, in one of those posts that you think that I delete because it doesn't fit my narrative. Post 38, to be specific, if you wanted to check.
The CBC seems to think that there is an Apple-wide policy of telling users that the data is gone forever. The CBC also has a long-standing problem about understanding how Apple service works, which is, literally, what this piece is about. It isn't about criticizing Jones, it isn't about criticizing Rossmann, and instead, they are exemplars that we have fully linked to, as alternatives to Apple's service options.
This is an opinion piece, backed by my own experience as an Apple-authorized tech, a freelancer, and as someone who's done circuit-level repair before. Mr. Rossmann also has an opinion based on his experiences and he used his channel to express it, which he should if he has an opinion. Linking his rebuttal is in no way a mistake. You are welcome to think that he "tore the article to shreds," and I'm sure that some agree with you, as that is the nature of opinions. That doesn't make it a universal truth, though, as exemplified by the posts here.
We've offered to have a discussion with him about it. As of yet, he hasn't responded.
However, if you're here to just comment on the only sections of the article that Mr. Rossmann is upset about, read the entire article here first, and the previous one regarding CBC that we linked in this article. Then, knock yourself out.
While Mr. Rossmann is entitled to his opinion, and we're glad he made a video about it to continue the conversation, there is a great deal more in the article that he did not discuss. Not the least of which are facts that the CBC declined to delve into, including the fact that Apple has no policy to tell customers that there is no hope for lost data.
In fact, they have an arrangement with DriveSavers, and other venues, for discounts. Feel free to research this yourself, by walking into an Apple Store and asking for the discount card. And, according to iPadRehab, as discussed in the forums, they do get customers directed to them by the local Apple Store.
Has Appleinsider not cherry picked what the CBC has “not said” or “not investigated”?
Rossman posted a response to this editorial this morning on YouTube.
and his original post of the CBC video:
Rossmann cherry-picked what we've said. which is his prerogative. For instance, given that there are some Apple employees moderating, does not mean that they are all Apple employees moderating. I'll be giving him a call today, and we'll be talking about it.
Edit: have called and left a message.
A quick note about this one... It doesn’t matter if it is or is not all Apple employees moderating. That has no bearing. It is Apple run, Apple owned and Apple approved and linked to through their official channels. It is effectively a product/ service provided by Apple and it is 100% Apple’s responsibility who they permit to moderate. They are a Corporation, this is their responsibility if they choose to provide it. Period.
As as an example, I don’t hold Apple accountable for this poorly written editorial. Why? Because, Appleinsider is not run by Apple, provided or endorsed by Apple. It is likely run by huge Apple fans (which is great!) rather than critics... However, the problem is that every so often an article like this comes up that screams of bias and it just doesn’t read well, look good, or come off as sound reasoning. Just blind Apple bias. Louis Rossman called Appleinsider out on it.
However, if you're here to just comment on the only sections of the article that Mr. Rossmann is upset about, read the entire article here first, and the previous one regarding CBC that we linked in this article. Then, knock yourself out.
While Mr. Rossmann is entitled to his opinion, and we're glad he made a video about it to continue the conversation, there is a great deal more in the article that he did not discuss. Not the least of which are facts that the CBC declined to delve into, including the fact that Apple has no policy to tell customers that there is no hope for lost data.
In fact, they have an arrangement with DriveSavers, and other venues, for discounts. Feel free to research this yourself, by walking into an Apple Store and asking for the discount card. And, according to iPadRehab, as discussed in the forums, they do get customers directed to them by the local Apple Store.
Has Appleinsider not cherry picked what the CBC has “not said” or “not investigated”?
Considering we summarized the video in its entirety in the first half, I’d say no.
Having an opinion that supports Apple that disagrees with your own does not make it "blind Apple bias." We can, and do, take them to task.
No, I don't. This is an editorial, and is clearly labeled as such. By definition, editorials have opinions. The CBC tried to call theirs objective, and news, though, so you should look elsewhere.
Saying that there are options is not the same as saying what the options are, and recommending a service. This is where your argument falls flat.
Mike, that's not how this works.
Apple claims that data from water damaged phones cannot be extracted at all. That's a statement of fact, and incorrect. It's demonstrably false.
Data can be recovered from water damaged phones, most of the time. Not always, but in the majority of cases. That's a fact. Not an opinion. It is demonstrably true.
Apple is deleting comments that state this factual truth, keeps comments that are incorrect, and bans accounts that keep posting the truth.
This is not about whether you are allowed which options exist, or name stores, or anything like that. The mere mention that options EXIST is verboten. You are doing mental gymnastics to justify your own opinion. Both are wrong, your opinion and your trying to find some angle to invalidate the truth. It's not a problem that you write your opinion in an editorial, and it's your right to be wrong about things.
What is not ok is for you to stubbornly ignore facts, and use strawman arguments to attack points that have never been raised in the first place, i.e. the claim that Apple's repair department would somehow have to do these repairs themselves. This is about Apple supressing the fact that many water damaged phones can have their data extracted. NOBODY was saying that Apple should offer this service themselves.
They should simply stop branding people who do this successfully every day as liars.
No, I don't. This is an editorial, and is clearly labeled as such. By definition, editorials have opinions. The CBC tried to call theirs objective, and news, though, so you should look elsewhere.
Saying that there are options is not the same as saying what the options are, and recommending a service. This is where your argument falls flat.
Mike, that's not how this works.
Apple claims that data from water damaged phones cannot be extracted at all. That's a statement of fact, and incorrect. It's demonstrably false.
Data can be recovered from water damaged phones, most of the time. Not always, but in the majority of cases. That's a fact. Not an opinion. It is demonstrably true.
Apple is deleting comments that state this factual truth, keeps comments that are incorrect, and bans accounts that keep posting the truth.
This is not about whether you are allowed which options exist, or name stores, or anything like that. The mere mention that options EXIST is verboten. You are doing mental gymnastics to justify your own opinion. Both are wrong, your opinion and your trying to find some angle to invalidate the truth. It's not a problem that you write your opinion in an editorial, and it's your right to be wrong about things.
What is not ok is for you to stubbornly ignore facts, and use strawman arguments to attack points that have never been raised in the first place, i.e. the claim that Apple's repair department would somehow have to do these repairs themselves. This is about Apple supressing the fact that many water damaged phones can have their data extracted. NOBODY was saying that Apple should offer this service themselves.
They should simply stop branding people who do this successfully every day as liars.
These are multiple things that you're conflating, so let's break it down a little. There are some points that I agree with here, including over-aggressive moderation in the Apple support forums. But, there is a fact that is stubbornly getting ignored by these responses.
Apple does not have a policy to tell people that there is no hope for recovery, and in fact they have partnerships with DriveSavers at the very least to give users referred discounts. Beyond just that statement, In this forum thread, there is ample evidence that Apple does in fact refer people to data recovery centers including to Mrs. Jones herself (specifically, post 38, where she says so.)
This particular video by the CBC was about the forum moderation and data extraction, yes. My article was about the CBC's continued, overall inability to report on the matter.
The CBC put a lot of weight on the Apple support forums as a venue for data. However, Apple in no way participates in the forums, nor issues any form of formal statement regarding data recovery there.
True or false:
Moderators on the Apple support forums are employed by Apple.
Thread pulled directly from support forum here. There's also evidence Rossmann provided in the video that was linked in the article that suggests that the Apple employed forum admins make upwards of $95,000 a year specifically to oversee the support forums.
Even if there are volunteer moderators, whichever way you look at it, the forums are still owned and the posts are moderated at the very least indirectly by Apple. Selective censorship is one thing... but to delete all comments that say data is recoverable by third party and to leave comments that literally say "phone is garbage data gone forever." is absolutely actively intentionally lying to the customer.
A step even further to say that any third party service claiming that the data can be recovered is a scam is deceiving and disrespectful to the customer. The threads are clearly being read, moderated, edited, and deleted over claims of "questionable advice" by the moderators.
So my question here is: How is "Data is gone forever. Throw your phone away." not questionable advice?
I think it might be slightly questionable... no?
A typical 'water damage' response from Apple's forums
The pictured thread had nothing to do with data recovery. The phone booted and a speaker was damaged. Third party was advised to fix speaker. Please find a thread that does the same for data recovery purposes which is the main point of discussion here. Ive only found one through my own search. More commonly there are quite a few that just have "no" as a response...
The only part of your editorial that actually pertains to the CBC story is:
Another failure of Apple's is banning Jones from the support forums. While Jones said that she read the terms of service and says that she did nothing wrong —a point that we believe —we feel that they made a bad call in that regard, as it pertains to customer education.
And you agree that Apple failed......
Besides that... the CBC story didn't say that Apple should perform board level repairs. It just stated that Apple shouldn't lie to customers which it clearly does since multiple sources have confirmed a hard "NO" answer on data recovery.
We don't doubt that the CBC was told by Apple that the data wasn't recoverable. Like before, Apple's representative did the job in accordance with training, followed the procedure the way they were supposed to, and performed at the level of experience they were expected to have.
The CBC put a lot of weight on the Apple support forums as a venue for data. However, Apple in no way participates in the forums, nor issues any form of formal statement regarding data recovery there.
True or false:
Moderators on the Apple support forums are employed by Apple.
Thread pulled directly from support forum here. There's also evidence Rossmann provided in the video that was linked in the article that suggests that the Apple employed forum admins make upwards of $95,000 a year specifically to oversee the support forums.
Even if there are volunteer moderators, whichever way you look at it, the forums are still owned and the posts are moderated at the very least indirectly by Apple. Selective censorship is one thing... but to delete all comments that say data is recoverable by third party and to leave comments that literally say "phone is garbage data gone forever." is absolutely actively intentionally lying to the customer.
A step even further to say that any third party service claiming that the data can be recovered is a scam is deceiving and disrespectful to the customer. The threads are clearly being read, moderated, edited, and deleted over claims of "questionable advice" by the moderators.
So my question here is: How is "Data is gone forever. Throw your phone away." not questionable advice?
I think it might be slightly questionable... no?
A typical 'water damage' response from Apple's forums
The pictured thread had nothing to do with data recovery. The phone booted and a speaker was damaged. Third party was advised to fix speaker. Please find a thread that does the same for data recovery purposes which is the main point of discussion here. Ive only found one through my own search. More commonly there are quite a few that just have "no" as a response...
The only part of your editorial that actually pertains to the CBC story is:
Another failure of Apple's is banning Jones from the support forums. While Jones said that she read the terms of service and says that she did nothing wrong —a point that we believe —we feel that they made a bad call in that regard, as it pertains to customer education.
And you agree that Apple failed......
Besides that... the CBC story didn't say that Apple should perform board level repairs. It just stated that Apple shouldn't lie to customers which it clearly does since multiple sources have confirmed a hard "NO" answer on data recovery.
We don't doubt that the CBC was told by Apple that the data wasn't recoverable. Like before, Apple's representative did the job in accordance with training, followed the procedure the way they were supposed to, and performed at the level of experience they were expected to have.
"True or false: Moderators on the Apple support forums are employed by Apple."
Both. There are a few moderators employed by Apple, in the single-digits. Given our own time in the trenches, admittedly a decade ago as a volunteer moderator and following conversations we've had with more recent folks that are still doing it, we know that 95%+ of the moderators are not employed by Apple, and it's probably 98% plus.
Plus, the tech suggestions for fixes like "throw your phone away" that you cited here are given by the users, who are not employees of Apple. Do you really think that Apple is paying $100K and up a year for hundreds of moderators?
And again, while this latest video is about data recovery, and Apple's forums, as I've said about seven times now, this article as a whole is about the CBC's issues with reporting on Apple service. Also again for about the fifth time, there is more than enough evidence that says that Apple does send users for third-party repairs and has no policy against doing so -- see post 38 in this thread from Mrs. Jones about that, where she says that she gets them.
It would have taken CBC five minutes to go into an Apple store and get a Drive Savers referral, with a discount. And, in regards to the last thing you quoted, the next scripted step for the online support people is to tell the user to make an appointment at a store, or send the phone in for examination. Guess who at Apple gives the referrals to data recovery?
Directly related to this video, and ignoring the CBC's other works on the matter (which again, is what this editorial is really about), yeah, I don't think Jones should have been banned, given what we know of what she's said there. This has been clear from the get-go. We also don't think that Apple properly educates users on good backup regiments, which we've also clearly said.
The CBC put a lot of weight on the Apple support forums as a venue for data. However, Apple in no way participates in the forums, nor issues any form of formal statement regarding data recovery there.
True or false:
Moderators on the Apple support forums are employed by Apple.
Thread pulled directly from support forum here. There's also evidence Rossmann provided in the video that was linked in the article that suggests that the Apple employed forum admins make upwards of $95,000 a year specifically to oversee the support forums.
Even if there are volunteer moderators, whichever way you look at it, the forums are still owned and the posts are moderated at the very least indirectly by Apple. Selective censorship is one thing... but to delete all comments that say data is recoverable by third party and to leave comments that literally say "phone is garbage data gone forever." is absolutely actively intentionally lying to the customer.
A step even further to say that any third party service claiming that the data can be recovered is a scam is deceiving and disrespectful to the customer. The threads are clearly being read, moderated, edited, and deleted over claims of "questionable advice" by the moderators.
So my question here is: How is "Data is gone forever. Throw your phone away." not questionable advice?
I think it might be slightly questionable... no?
A typical 'water damage' response from Apple's forums
The pictured thread had nothing to do with data recovery. The phone booted and a speaker was damaged. Third party was advised to fix speaker. Please find a thread that does the same for data recovery purposes which is the main point of discussion here. Ive only found one through my own search. More commonly there are quite a few that just have "no" as a response...
The only part of your editorial that actually pertains to the CBC story is:
Another failure of Apple's is banning Jones from the support forums. While Jones said that she read the terms of service and says that she did nothing wrong —a point that we believe —we feel that they made a bad call in that regard, as it pertains to customer education.
And you agree that Apple failed......
Besides that... the CBC story didn't say that Apple should perform board level repairs. It just stated that Apple shouldn't lie to customers which it clearly does since multiple sources have confirmed a hard "NO" answer on data recovery.
We don't doubt that the CBC was told by Apple that the data wasn't recoverable. Like before, Apple's representative did the job in accordance with training, followed the procedure the way they were supposed to, and performed at the level of experience they were expected to have.
"True or false: Moderators on the Apple support forums are employed by Apple."
Both. There are a few moderators employed by Apple, in the single-digits. 95%+ of the moderators are not employed by Apple, and it's probably 98% plus. The tech suggestions for fixes like "throw your phone away" that you cited here are given by the users, who are not employees of Apple. Do you really think that Apple is paying $100K and up a year for hundreds of moderators?
And again, while this latest video is about data recovery, and Apple's forums, this article as a whole is about the CBC's issues with reporting on Apple service. Also again, there is more than enough evidence that says that Apple does send users for third-party repairs and has no policy against doing so -- see post 38 in this thread from Mrs. Jones about that, where she says that she gets them.
It would have taken CBC five minutes to go into an Apple store and get a Drive Savers referral, with a discount.
Please, Mike, do you even read what is right in front of you? Brynpttrsn gave you THE link. To THE evidence. It states that ONLY apple employees moderate that forum. ONLY APPLE moderates it. ONLY APPLE. Not 5%- of the moderators are apple employees. No. ALL OF THEM. Do you even have any evidence, based on which you are claiming that "95%+ of them" are non-employees?
Let me copy-paste you the response if you really did not care enough to open that link:
The CBC put a lot of weight on the Apple support forums as a venue for data. However, Apple in no way participates in the forums, nor issues any form of formal statement regarding data recovery there.
True or false:
Moderators on the Apple support forums are employed by Apple.
Thread pulled directly from support forum here. There's also evidence Rossmann provided in the video that was linked in the article that suggests that the Apple employed forum admins make upwards of $95,000 a year specifically to oversee the support forums.
Even if there are volunteer moderators, whichever way you look at it, the forums are still owned and the posts are moderated at the very least indirectly by Apple. Selective censorship is one thing... but to delete all comments that say data is recoverable by third party and to leave comments that literally say "phone is garbage data gone forever." is absolutely actively intentionally lying to the customer.
A step even further to say that any third party service claiming that the data can be recovered is a scam is deceiving and disrespectful to the customer. The threads are clearly being read, moderated, edited, and deleted over claims of "questionable advice" by the moderators.
So my question here is: How is "Data is gone forever. Throw your phone away." not questionable advice?
I think it might be slightly questionable... no?
A typical 'water damage' response from Apple's forums
The pictured thread had nothing to do with data recovery. The phone booted and a speaker was damaged. Third party was advised to fix speaker. Please find a thread that does the same for data recovery purposes which is the main point of discussion here. Ive only found one through my own search. More commonly there are quite a few that just have "no" as a response...
The only part of your editorial that actually pertains to the CBC story is:
Another failure of Apple's is banning Jones from the support forums. While Jones said that she read the terms of service and says that she did nothing wrong —a point that we believe —we feel that they made a bad call in that regard, as it pertains to customer education.
And you agree that Apple failed......
Besides that... the CBC story didn't say that Apple should perform board level repairs. It just stated that Apple shouldn't lie to customers which it clearly does since multiple sources have confirmed a hard "NO" answer on data recovery.
We don't doubt that the CBC was told by Apple that the data wasn't recoverable. Like before, Apple's representative did the job in accordance with training, followed the procedure the way they were supposed to, and performed at the level of experience they were expected to have.
"True or false: Moderators on the Apple support forums are employed by Apple."
Both. There are a few moderators employed by Apple, in the single-digits. 95%+ of the moderators are not employed by Apple, and it's probably 98% plus. The tech suggestions for fixes like "throw your phone away" that you cited here are given by the users, who are not employees of Apple. Do you really think that Apple is paying $100K and up a year for hundreds of moderators?
And again, while this latest video is about data recovery, and Apple's forums, this article as a whole is about the CBC's issues with reporting on Apple service. Also again, there is more than enough evidence that says that Apple does send users for third-party repairs and has no policy against doing so -- see post 38 in this thread from Mrs. Jones about that, where she says that she gets them.
It would have taken CBC five minutes to go into an Apple store and get a Drive Savers referral, with a discount.
Please, Mike, do you even read what is right in front of you? Brynpttrsn gave you THE link. To THE evidence. It states that ONLY apple employees moderate that forum. ONLY APPLE moderates it. ONLY APPLE. Not 5%- of the moderators are apple employees. No. ALL OF THEM. Do you even have any evidence, based on which you are claiming that "95%+ of them" are non-employees?
Let me copy-paste you the response if you really did not care enough to open that link:
There are several Apple employees working as Communities Hosts. They are the only moderators, and the only ones who can move or delete a post.
Regards.
Yes, I read it. While you were composing this response, I added more information to the post. I was a volunteer moderator from 2009-2010. I left because I didn't like the post deletion that was happening, and was frequently castigated for a light touch. While it's possible that things have changed in the last decade, after reaching out to people since Tuesday that are still doing it, it doesn't look like it has.
And, again, like I've said several times now, and in the original article, I don't like how Mrs. Jones has been moderated there. This is still mostly a red herring to the original point of the article, though.
Okay, gang here's the situation. I have burned far, far too much time here, and am way more interested in doing more testing with the Radeon VII in an eGPU and Mac Pro 5,1 and Apple's new gear from two weeks ago. If you've come here from Mr. Rossmann's video, that great. If you can't read the original article without preconception, I understand, so I'll do a quick summary here of my thoughts on the matter. I probably won't be coming back to respond today or tomorrow, as I keep saying the same things over and over and that's getting old. But, asking folks to read through four pages of forum comments is unfair, so here we go:
But, please do read this one. And, if you're a new forum-goer, we do have guidelines, as conveniently linked on the bottom of every page.
1) Apple has no policy to tell people that their data is gone, and cannot ever be recovered. After you get through the first wave of contact, online or on the phone, when the phone goes in or you bring it to a genius bar, they are not prohibited from giving data options, and have discount cards for at least Drive Savers at the bars. In fact, and confirmed by Mrs. Jones in post 38, they can, and do refer folks to third-parties for repair. They even referred Linus Tech Tips to a third party for repair when they destroyed their iMac Pro a year ago.
2) This isn't about Rossmann, and Jones. They are both good at what they do. We've asked Mr. Rossmann to talk about the matter formally, and I'll be asking Mrs. Jones later today as well.
3) What this is about, is the CBC. They have a pattern of not being able to report accurately on Apple service, and don't seem to be interested in finding out anything about it.
4) We don't agree with Apple's forum guidelines, and think that Mrs. Jones is being unfairly moderated there. And yes, we do have experience as non-paid moderators.
5) We think that Apple should be more aggressive in telling users about data backups, and the importance of them.
The CBC put a lot of weight on the Apple support forums as a venue for data. However, Apple in no way participates in the forums, nor issues any form of formal statement regarding data recovery there.
True or false:
Moderators on the Apple support forums are employed by Apple.
Thread pulled directly from support forum here. There's also evidence Rossmann provided in the video that was linked in the article that suggests that the Apple employed forum admins make upwards of $95,000 a year specifically to oversee the support forums.
Even if there are volunteer moderators, whichever way you look at it, the forums are still owned and the posts are moderated at the very least indirectly by Apple. Selective censorship is one thing... but to delete all comments that say data is recoverable by third party and to leave comments that literally say "phone is garbage data gone forever." is absolutely actively intentionally lying to the customer.
A step even further to say that any third party service claiming that the data can be recovered is a scam is deceiving and disrespectful to the customer. The threads are clearly being read, moderated, edited, and deleted over claims of "questionable advice" by the moderators.
So my question here is: How is "Data is gone forever. Throw your phone away." not questionable advice?
I think it might be slightly questionable... no?
A typical 'water damage' response from Apple's forums
The pictured thread had nothing to do with data recovery. The phone booted and a speaker was damaged. Third party was advised to fix speaker. Please find a thread that does the same for data recovery purposes which is the main point of discussion here. Ive only found one through my own search. More commonly there are quite a few that just have "no" as a response...
The only part of your editorial that actually pertains to the CBC story is:
Another failure of Apple's is banning Jones from the support forums. While Jones said that she read the terms of service and says that she did nothing wrong —a point that we believe —we feel that they made a bad call in that regard, as it pertains to customer education.
And you agree that Apple failed......
Besides that... the CBC story didn't say that Apple should perform board level repairs. It just stated that Apple shouldn't lie to customers which it clearly does since multiple sources have confirmed a hard "NO" answer on data recovery.
We don't doubt that the CBC was told by Apple that the data wasn't recoverable. Like before, Apple's representative did the job in accordance with training, followed the procedure the way they were supposed to, and performed at the level of experience they were expected to have.
"True or false: Moderators on the Apple support forums are employed by Apple."
Both. There are a few moderators employed by Apple, in the single-digits. 95%+ of the moderators are not employed by Apple, and it's probably 98% plus. The tech suggestions for fixes like "throw your phone away" that you cited here are given by the users, who are not employees of Apple. Do you really think that Apple is paying $100K and up a year for hundreds of moderators?
And again, while this latest video is about data recovery, and Apple's forums, this article as a whole is about the CBC's issues with reporting on Apple service. Also again, there is more than enough evidence that says that Apple does send users for third-party repairs and has no policy against doing so -- see post 38 in this thread from Mrs. Jones about that, where she says that she gets them.
It would have taken CBC five minutes to go into an Apple store and get a Drive Savers referral, with a discount.
Please, Mike, do you even read what is right in front of you? Brynpttrsn gave you THE link. To THE evidence. It states that ONLY apple employees moderate that forum. ONLY APPLE moderates it. ONLY APPLE. Not 5%- of the moderators are apple employees. No. ALL OF THEM. Do you even have any evidence, based on which you are claiming that "95%+ of them" are non-employees?
Let me copy-paste you the response if you really did not care enough to open that link:
There are several Apple employees working as Communities Hosts. They are the only moderators, and the only ones who can move or delete a post.
Regards.
Interesting that your proof that only Apple moderates threads comes from a thread that 1) is 6 years old and 2) is a post by someone who is clearly labeled a "User", not from Apple directly.
Also, do you even read what's in front of you? Further down in that same thread is this:
If a post is just in the wrong place, a Host will usually move it to the correct forum. If, however, the thread has gotten too many rude responses, particularly if the Hosts see that the issue has been also addressed elsewhere, they'll often just delete the thread rather than trying to "prune" it."
Could it possibly be, as mentioned by the same user you quoted, that whatever threads are being deleted are being deleted because the issue has already been address elsewhere?
As mentioned above, the argument about who can moderate threads on Apple forums is a deflection from the point of the article. So, again, do you even read what's in front of you?
PS: I'm not expecting a reply, too many first time posters in this thread who seem to post and then disappear. Is Mike moderating them out?!? /s
Okay, gang here's the situation. I have burned far, far too much time here, and am way more interested in doing more testing with the Radeon VII in an eGPU and Mac Pro 5,1 and Apple's new gear from two weeks ago. If you've come here from Mr. Rossmann's video, that great. If you can't read the original article without preconception, I understand, so I'll do a quick summary here of my thoughts on the matter. I probably won't be coming back to respond today or tomorrow, as I keep saying the same things over and over and that's getting old. But, asking folks to read through four pages of forum comments is unfair, so here we go:
But, please do read this one. And, if you're a new forum-goer, we do have guidelines, as conveniently linked on the bottom of every page.
1) Apple has no policy to tell people that their data is gone, and cannot ever be recovered. After you get through the first wave of contact, online or on the phone, when the phone goes in or you bring it to a genius bar, they are not prohibited from giving data options, and have discount cards for at least Drive Savers at the bars. In fact, and confirmed by Mrs. Jones in post 38, they can, and do refer folks to third-parties for repair. They even referred Linus Tech Tips to a third party for repair when they destroyed their iMac Pro a year ago.
2) This isn't about Rossmann, and Jones. They are both good at what they do. We've asked Mr. Rossmann to talk about the matter formally, and I'll be asking Mrs. Jones later today as well.
3) What this is about, is the CBC. They have a pattern of not being able to report accurately on Apple service, and don't seem to be interested in finding out anything about it.
4) We don't agree with Apple's forum guidelines, and think that Mrs. Jones is being unfairly moderated there. And yes, we do have experience as non-paid moderators.
5) We think that Apple should be more aggressive in telling users about data backups, and the importance of them.
Comments
Small sampling: posts 11, 25, and 38, with 38 being Jones' remarks about getting referrals from there.
I worked at the one 1st retail store that sold apple computers(before apple opened their own stores) and we were an apple authorized repair facility and they had us recomend 3rd party data recovery.
So to say the issue is apple not providing board level repair or data recovery in every apple store...that is preposterous.
Their support forums are full of self righteous egotistical moderators that delete posts that contradict them
Your article did not address the issues brought up by the CBC video -- you simply presented non-related facts to try & sidetrack the issue.
But, you got caught. Like I said, it wouldn't have blown up in your face like this if you handled it like an adult. The worst thing you did was link to Louis -- he tore your article to shreds.
And yet apple employees and forum admins may tell you otherwise. There is a lot of discrepancy between what you state Mike and what actually happens.
The biggest point of the whole story is that apple seems to be a corporation that cares more about selling you a new phone than recovering a picture of your baby. I would feel bad about associating myself with that kind of company.
As as an example, I don’t hold Apple accountable for this poorly written editorial. Why? Because, Appleinsider is not run by Apple, provided or endorsed by Apple. It is likely run by huge Apple fans (which is great!) rather than critics... However, the problem is that every so often an article like this comes up that screams of bias and it just doesn’t read well, look good, or come off as sound reasoning. Just blind Apple bias. Louis Rossman called Appleinsider out on it.
Having an opinion that supports Apple that disagrees with your own does not make it "blind Apple bias." We can, and do, take them to task.
Apple does not have a policy to tell people that there is no hope for recovery, and in fact they have partnerships with DriveSavers at the very least to give users referred discounts. Beyond just that statement, In this forum thread, there is ample evidence that Apple does in fact refer people to data recovery centers including to Mrs. Jones herself (specifically, post 38, where she says so.)
This particular video by the CBC was about the forum moderation and data extraction, yes. My article was about the CBC's continued, overall inability to report on the matter.
True or false:
Moderators on the Apple support forums are employed by Apple.
Thread pulled directly from support forum here. There's also evidence Rossmann provided in the video that was linked in the article that suggests that the Apple employed forum admins make upwards of $95,000 a year specifically to oversee the support forums.
Even if there are volunteer moderators, whichever way you look at it, the forums are still owned and the posts are moderated at the very least indirectly by Apple. Selective censorship is one thing... but to delete all comments that say data is recoverable by third party and to leave comments that literally say "phone is garbage data gone forever." is absolutely actively intentionally lying to the customer.
A step even further to say that any third party service claiming that the data can be recovered is a scam is deceiving and disrespectful to the customer. The threads are clearly being read, moderated, edited, and deleted over claims of "questionable advice" by the moderators.
So my question here is: How is "Data is gone forever. Throw your phone away." not questionable advice? I think it might be slightly questionable... no?
The pictured thread had nothing to do with data recovery. The phone booted and a speaker was damaged. Third party was advised to fix speaker. Please find a thread that does the same for data recovery purposes which is the main point of discussion here. Ive only found one through my own search. More commonly there are quite a few that just have "no" as a response...
The only part of your editorial that actually pertains to the CBC story is: And you agree that Apple failed......
Besides that... the CBC story didn't say that Apple should perform board level repairs. It just stated that Apple shouldn't lie to customers which it clearly does since multiple sources have confirmed a hard "NO" answer on data recovery.
TLDR;
Moderators on the Apple support forums are employed by Apple."
Plus, the tech suggestions for fixes like "throw your phone away" that you cited here are given by the users, who are not employees of Apple. Do you really think that Apple is paying $100K and up a year for hundreds of moderators?
And again, while this latest video is about data recovery, and Apple's forums, as I've said about seven times now, this article as a whole is about the CBC's issues with reporting on Apple service. Also again for about the fifth time, there is more than enough evidence that says that Apple does send users for third-party repairs and has no policy against doing so -- see post 38 in this thread from Mrs. Jones about that, where she says that she gets them.
It would have taken CBC five minutes to go into an Apple store and get a Drive Savers referral, with a discount. And, in regards to the last thing you quoted, the next scripted step for the online support people is to tell the user to make an appointment at a store, or send the phone in for examination. Guess who at Apple gives the referrals to data recovery?
Directly related to this video, and ignoring the CBC's other works on the matter (which again, is what this editorial is really about), yeah, I don't think Jones should have been banned, given what we know of what she's said there. This has been clear from the get-go. We also don't think that Apple properly educates users on good backup regiments, which we've also clearly said.
Let me copy-paste you the response if you really did not care enough to open that link:
Apr 10, 2013 10:05 AM in response to makfai
There are several Apple employees working as Communities Hosts. They are the only moderators, and the only ones who can move or delete a post.
Regards.
And, again, like I've said several times now, and in the original article, I don't like how Mrs. Jones has been moderated there. This is still mostly a red herring to the original point of the article, though.
But, please do read this one. And, if you're a new forum-goer, we do have guidelines, as conveniently linked on the bottom of every page.
1) Apple has no policy to tell people that their data is gone, and cannot ever be recovered. After you get through the first wave of contact, online or on the phone, when the phone goes in or you bring it to a genius bar, they are not prohibited from giving data options, and have discount cards for at least Drive Savers at the bars. In fact, and confirmed by Mrs. Jones in post 38, they can, and do refer folks to third-parties for repair. They even referred Linus Tech Tips to a third party for repair when they destroyed their iMac Pro a year ago.
2) This isn't about Rossmann, and Jones. They are both good at what they do. We've asked Mr. Rossmann to talk about the matter formally, and I'll be asking Mrs. Jones later today as well.
3) What this is about, is the CBC. They have a pattern of not being able to report accurately on Apple service, and don't seem to be interested in finding out anything about it.
4) We don't agree with Apple's forum guidelines, and think that Mrs. Jones is being unfairly moderated there. And yes, we do have experience as non-paid moderators.
5) We think that Apple should be more aggressive in telling users about data backups, and the importance of them.
Also, do you even read what's in front of you? Further down in that same thread is this:
Apr 11, 2013 7:34 AM in response to makfai
If a post is just in the wrong place, a Host will usually move it to the correct forum. If, however, the thread has gotten too many rude responses, particularly if the Hosts see that the issue has been also addressed elsewhere, they'll often just delete the thread rather than trying to "prune" it."
Could it possibly be, as mentioned by the same user you quoted, that whatever threads are being deleted are being deleted because the issue has already been address elsewhere?
As mentioned above, the argument about who can moderate threads on Apple forums is a deflection from the point of the article. So, again, do you even read what's in front of you?
PS: I'm not expecting a reply, too many first time posters in this thread who seem to post and then disappear. Is Mike moderating them out?!? /s
But, please do read this one. And, if you're a new forum-goer, we do have guidelines, as conveniently linked on the bottom of every page.
1) Apple has no policy to tell people that their data is gone, and cannot ever be recovered. After you get through the first wave of contact, online or on the phone, when the phone goes in or you bring it to a genius bar, they are not prohibited from giving data options, and have discount cards for at least Drive Savers at the bars. In fact, and confirmed by Mrs. Jones in post 38, they can, and do refer folks to third-parties for repair. They even referred Linus Tech Tips to a third party for repair when they destroyed their iMac Pro a year ago.
2) This isn't about Rossmann, and Jones. They are both good at what they do. We've asked Mr. Rossmann to talk about the matter formally, and I'll be asking Mrs. Jones later today as well.
3) What this is about, is the CBC. They have a pattern of not being able to report accurately on Apple service, and don't seem to be interested in finding out anything about it.
4) We don't agree with Apple's forum guidelines, and think that Mrs. Jones is being unfairly moderated there. And yes, we do have experience as non-paid moderators.
5) We think that Apple should be more aggressive in telling users about data backups, and the importance of them.