Editorial: CBC again attacks Apple's repair policies, but still lacks knowledge of how it ...

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  • Reply 81 of 91
    In my opinion, Apple is engaging in unethical business practices when its employees delete posts and ban users from their forum who mention that it is possible to recover data from failed Apple devices. Jessa Jones has presented clear evidence that Apple is doing this, and this practice clearly harms owners of Apple devices who need a way to recover their data.

    Since 2009, I have been the forum manager at ProcessMaker, which is web-based business process management software, so I know a bit about managing a public forum. I ban 2 or 3 users per day because we don't allow spam and advertising on our forum, but I would never think to ban users if they give other people information on how to recover their data from ProcessMaker. In fact, I freely provide that information on our forums and I even convinced our company to create an unofficial wiki so that users can share that kind of information.

    As a Thinkpad owner, I have spent some time on the Lenovo forum and I have never seen Lenovo delete posts about how to recover data from a failed machine on their forum. Apple has made a number of design choices such as creating custom pentalobe screws and designing the 2018 Macbook Pro so it impossible to recover the data from the SSD if the motherboard fails which are very detrimental to their customers. I really think that Apple customers need to push back or this kind of behavior will never change.

    Some analysts calculate that Apple earns a 40% profit margin on their iPhones and the company as a whole has a 20% profit margin, so these actions are hardly necessary for Apple to stay in business.

    The mobile device industry as a whole saddens me, because the mobile divisions of Sony, HTC and Motorola/Lenovo which generally respected the rights of their users haven´t made a profit in years and they keep shrinking. Now that Sony Mobile is cutting half of its employees, it is going to be very hard for me to find a phone with expandable memory which allows me to unlock the bootloader (without a manufacturer´s special code) and install a different operating system, such as LineageOS. The last tablets on the market which allowed the user to unlock the bootloader on his own and install LineageOS were the Pixel C and the Xperia Z4 which were released in 2015. 

    I have become so disgusted with the mobile device industry and the lack of user rights in the Apple/Google duopoly that I have decided to crowdfund the Purism Librem 5. I don´t want to spend the next couple years using a new operating system that has very few apps, limited functionality and poor hardware, but at this point I see no other good choice if I value my freedom and privacy.

  • Reply 82 of 91
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,858administrator
    Louis Rossmann has discovered that Apple support personnel do refer customers to data recovery services, as we've been saying. And again, as was the point of this editorial, the CBC didn't bother to check, again.


    edited April 2019 galliumnitride
  • Reply 83 of 91
    canuckercanucker Posts: 12member
    canucker said:
    Every so often comes a post like this from Appleinsider, where I lose my confidence that there is such a thing as independent objective-based journalism.  

    Before I state my issues, I would like to commend the last paragraph of the article - as with anything in life I believe strongly in holding oneself accountable and solving the problem as an individual thereby reducing reliance on external support.  That fantastic advice here:

    1. ..."always back up your data and don't rely on anybody else to save it for you"
    2.  "have a repair shop you trust and it doesn't matter if it's Apple or a talented third-party..."

    However, some of the issues with this article are as follows:

    1.  Why come to the aid of Apple to attempt to justify a lack of assistance or dedication to supporting the end user based on a company's scale?  Doing so does not point out poor journalism for the CBC - all it does is demonstrate your justification for Apple's poor service in this unique user-caused end-circumstance scenario.

    What is the point in Steve founding a company on a belief system if you can just change it on a 'whim' in the name of big business.  That's just sad.  Steve would visit every Apple Store - I'm not sure Tim Cook finds the time between cameo's and coffees on morning television shows.

    To your point, yes Apple is an electronics company now.  And, yes they are no longer a small bespoke computer company.  And, we it should follow that we just accept that their service quality has dropped to compensate for this scale.  In my own conversations with senior apple support regarding my own product issues, they acknowledged this as much.

    2.  Thank you for bringing up Louis Rossmann.  However, mentioning him does not support the article's position as it only weakens it further for the readers that are familiar with him.  For those that do not know, Louis Rossmann is a staunch supporter right to repair and is very vocal with regard to apple attempts to forceable reduce (by design) the ability to repair your own machines without Apple's help or authorization.  As an example, a firmware update that Apple used to nuke 3rd party retina displays from working with their MBP.  To be clear, these displays are LG and identical to Apple's screens - the only difference is Apple hasn't permitted them.  It is far more technical than I pretend to be, so youtube it and watch it for yourself.

    In any event.  I am a huge Apple fan however, my honeymoon with Apple has been ruined by their choices as of late.
    1: The post isn't about coming to the aid of Apple, as it is about the CBC's inability to cover the issue. As I mentioned, this is even after they have spoken to what I previously suspected, but have now confirmed as multiple venues who do know how Apple service works. Again. Still.

    But yet, they continue to beat the drum, calling it factual and objective -- which it isn't. Say what you want, but at least we label our opinion pieces, and don't try to pass them off as reporting.

    2: We've spoken about Rossmann before. The CBC's latest piece wasn't about him, and we've linked to him here so the reader, if interested, can learn more. We spoke more about him in the first piece in I think October, about what was about the fifth CBC mishandling of how service works.

    And, regarding your second post, yes, I did write the article. Bylines don't pass to the forums, but are on the homepage.

    On another point, once upon a time, Apple service shops were given instructions on how do to circuit-level repair. The red book that shipped with the Apple II even had circuit diagrams, and some instructions to the user about how to do it. Under Jobs, in around 1981, that program turned into a component-level repair, and remained so, well through the second-coming. He wasn't ever the proponent of user repair that some may think he was, and you don't have to look any farther than the 128K Mac or Lisa to see that.

    Thanks for the advice on forum behavior. I will consider what you have said. However, trolls will be responded to accordingly.
    Thanks for taking the time to provide a bit more insight on Apple's historical approach as I was unaware.

    As for the CBC, reporting in general ... Unless we are talking about the rigours of scientific study and an objective process I do not personally view the current state of journalism to be anything other than opinionated.  That said, perhaps this post is a healthy opposite to CBC to provide balance if anything as with all topics I am a firm believing in reading and listening to both sides.  Either way Mike, it's hard for me to read anything Apple related lately due to some personal issues I have had with Apple of the past few years and the copious amounts of money I have poured into their products.  Still a passionate Apple user, hence my coming to Appleinsider for my daily dose....  Anyhow neither here nor there.

    Thank you for writing the article and more so for the rather diligent follow up on all the comments that came as a result.  It's nice to see how engaged Appleinsider is and you are to the process of discussion.

    As for trolls... I hear you, I just figure it's like anything they teach you about raising an animal... Don't give it any attention positive or negative to change the behaviour!

    I have to get back to work sadly commenting is not my job :(.  So I just wanted to leave it at thanks again for the hard work, I guess I fall somewhere in the hear you category and slightly disagree with you category but I haven't the time to invest in understanding the totality of the situation if I am being honest.

    So simply put - thanks.  I feel like people to hear that enough these days for their hard work and I have loved this website for many many years and hope you guys can keep up the good work and find a way to make a living with it.

    Looking forward to future articles!
  • Reply 84 of 91
    1st1st Posts: 443member
    although Apple store dotted major cities in Canada, but there are far in between - CBC report used website for a good reason  - chaps in the two users neck of woods most likely will rely on website instead of store (US is way out numbered Canadian in population, but land is otherwise - hard for silicon valley chap to understand? ;-).  
  • Reply 85 of 91
    1st1st Posts: 443member
    matter of fact, there are only 6 provinces have apple store: Alberta, BC, Manitoba, Nova scotia, ontario and quebac.  Newfoundland has none.  
  • Reply 86 of 91
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    Louis Rossmann has discovered that Apple support personnel do refer customers to data recovery services, as we've been saying. And again, as was the point of this editorial, the CBC didn't bother to check, again.
    "Didn't bother" to check that Apple don't have a policy to tell customers that data isn't recoverable?  Apple should have a policy to tell customers that data may be recoverable, albeit from a third party.

    Quibbling about the CBC following a story by showing people it actually affected, and being able to replicate it, seems like a whole load of nonsense.  Apple have a problem here.
    edited April 2019
  • Reply 87 of 91
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,858administrator
    crowley said:
    Louis Rossmann has discovered that Apple support personnel do refer customers to data recovery services, as we've been saying. And again, as was the point of this editorial, the CBC didn't bother to check, again.
    "Didn't bother" to check that Apple don't have a policy to tell customers that data isn't recoverable?  Apple should have a policy to tell customers that data may be recoverable, albeit from a third party.

    Quibbling about the CBC following a story by showing people it actually affected, and being able to replicate it, seems like a whole load of nonsense.  Apple have a problem here.
    One chat representative who is only responsible for getting the phone into repair isn't a replication of the allegation that Apple is lying to customers, as the CBC attests it is. That jump of logic is like looking at my white hair, and saying that submarine service guarantees no loss of hair, but it will be white.

    At the store, or after the phone gets mailed in, and THAT is where data recovery gets offered. The CBC found what data they wanted, and stopped. Again.

    So, like the editorial says, this is a pattern of nonsense by CBC. Still.
    edited April 2019
  • Reply 88 of 91
    kazolarkazolar Posts: 0unconfirmed, member
    Mike, I can understand this an editorial, and you're entitled to your opinion -- and let me get this straight. Your opinion is that Apple community support forums (moderated by Apple employees -- FACT) is a red herring -- NO, it's the entire point. Apple employees go out of their way to censor the fact that data on Apple devices can be recovered by competent technicians. No one is asking them to endorse a service, to offer recommendations, can they just stop lying. Is that too much to ask of a trillion dollar company. To stop disseminating "Fake News". You can have your glowing opinion of Apple -- it's good for your business, I get it. Criticizing Apple and calling them out for LYING will likely hurt your access to apple events. However your fanboy card is showing. You are dismissing the MAIN point here. Apple is actively censoring any and all information on their forum regarding data recovery. END Sentence. If some apple store genius bar employees offer different advice, that is not the point. That users should own their mistakes for not backing up -- IS NOT the point. Take a step back and admit that Apple should acknowledge that data is recoverable by competent technicians for a moderate price which some would be more than willing to pay. That's all. CBC didn't need to go into multiple apple stores to do undercover sting operations to see what genius bar employees would tell them. You know what -- there are numerous calls to apple 800 support number on YouTube with people asking what their options are with getting a water damaged phone repaired. They're quoted a large number and are told outright that their data is gone, asked if there are alternative data recovery methods, the blanket answer is NO. Get out of the bubble -- again -- this is an editorial, but your credibility is shot. This might as well be press release from Apple.
  • Reply 89 of 91
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,858administrator
    kazolar said:
    Mike, I can understand this an editorial, and you're entitled to your opinion -- and let me get this straight. Your opinion is that Apple community support forums (moderated by Apple employees -- FACT) is a red herring -- NO, it's the entire point. Apple employees go out of their way to censor the fact that data on Apple devices can be recovered by competent technicians. No one is asking them to endorse a service, to offer recommendations, can they just stop lying. Is that too much to ask of a trillion dollar company. To stop disseminating "Fake News". You can have your glowing opinion of Apple -- it's good for your business, I get it. Criticizing Apple and calling them out for LYING will likely hurt your access to apple events. However your fanboy card is showing. You are dismissing the MAIN point here. Apple is actively censoring any and all information on their forum regarding data recovery. END Sentence. If some apple store genius bar employees offer different advice, that is not the point. That users should own their mistakes for not backing up -- IS NOT the point. Take a step back and admit that Apple should acknowledge that data is recoverable by competent technicians for a moderate price which some would be more than willing to pay. That's all. CBC didn't need to go into multiple apple stores to do undercover sting operations to see what genius bar employees would tell them. You know what -- there are numerous calls to apple 800 support number on YouTube with people asking what their options are with getting a water damaged phone repaired. They're quoted a large number and are told outright that their data is gone, asked if there are alternative data recovery methods, the blanket answer is NO. Get out of the bubble -- again -- this is an editorial, but your credibility is shot. This might as well be press release from Apple.
    Re-read what the forums are -- they are COMMUNITY support forums. They are no more official Apple statements on things, than this forum is. Zero solutions are published by Apple. Solutions are 100% user-driven. So, it absolutely is a red herring, given that the solutions put forth aren't Apple's guidance on the matter. We already said in the editorial that we don't approve of the moderation efforts taken, but I don't think you got that far down in the text.

    And it isn't "some" geniuses who offer different advice. It is literally Apple policy to provide data recovery options, as demonstrated not just in this thread beyond the editorial, but by a follow-up video by Louis Rossmann, linked on the bottom of the editorial. And here it is again, since I don't think you read the piece: 

    And regarding the CBC, they absolutely needed to go into multiple Apple stores to do "undercover sting operations" beyond the one that they did. The CBC got the data they wanted from the get-go, and stopped, not even bothering to see if there was more to the story. Again. We have a minuscule percentage of the CBC's resources, and yet, somehow, we can manage to get this kind of thing done.

    If you wish to continue to interact in this forum, feel free to read the commenting guidelines conveniently linked at the bottom of this post.
    edited April 2019
  • Reply 90 of 91
    timlister82timlister82 Posts: 1unconfirmed, member
    If Apple has "nothing to do" with the Apple support forums then why is their name and official logo on the site? I didn't realize Apple was so uncaring about the use of their trademarks and intellectual property.
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