Mac Pro won't get China tariff waiver, says President Trump

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 77
    LoneStar88LoneStar88 Posts: 322member
    tzeshan said:
    The point which seems to have gone missing here so far is that China poses a far more huge threat to our economy and to our sovereignty than IMAGINED price increases of some damn computers which relatively few of us are going to buy anyway.

    So far, tariffs in general have had POSITIVE effects on our economy in the form of factories and manufacturing returning to our shores—to say nothing of the tariff income itself!

    The picture is much bigger than  a mere squabble over Mac Pro manufacturing.

    Just imaging the huge impact a truly-acceptable-to-both-sides trade deal with China will have for the entire planet!! After all, China has been ripping us off for countless decades to the tune of TRILLIONS of dollars, merely because no one before Trump ever called them out for it—and CHINA KNOWS IT!!

    If Trump were to exempt Apple, he'd have to exempt others. Ain't gonna happen!
    How do you know the tariffs have POSITIVE effects on our economy? If you think US economy depends 100% on trade, you have not taken economics 101 course. 
    Quit reading stuff into what I said! President Trump said we've been taking BILLIONS in from tariffs. How can that be a bad thing?
  • Reply 62 of 77
    tzeshan said:
    The point which seems to have gone missing here so far is that China poses a far more huge threat to our economy and to our sovereignty than IMAGINED price increases of some damn computers which relatively few of us are going to buy anyway.

    So far, tariffs in general have had POSITIVE effects on our economy in the form of factories and manufacturing returning to our shores—to say nothing of the tariff income itself!

    The picture is much bigger than  a mere squabble over Mac Pro manufacturing.

    Just imaging the huge impact a truly-acceptable-to-both-sides trade deal with China will have for the entire planet!! After all, China has been ripping us off for countless decades to the tune of TRILLIONS of dollars, merely because no one before Trump ever called them out for it—and CHINA KNOWS IT!!

    If Trump were to exempt Apple, he'd have to exempt others. Ain't gonna happen!
    How do you know the tariffs have POSITIVE effects on our economy? If you think US economy depends 100% on trade, you have not taken economics 101 course. 
    Quit reading stuff into what I said! President Trump said we've been taking BILLIONS in from tariffs. How can that be a bad thing?
    Your first problem here is believing anything he says. The man is a habitual liar who doesn’t have the slightest clue about what he’s doing. 
    stevenozGeorgeBMacurahara
  • Reply 63 of 77
    nubusnubus Posts: 96member

    You and I both know that there is no US manufacturing on this scale to speak of
    If Apple could assemble the previous Mac Pro in US then why not the new one? True, it took months to scale back in 2013, but Apple learned. They made their plans for the new Mac Pro public in 2017. They had years to get this right and the "America First" agenda of Trump is hardly a surprise.

    But Apple didn't prepare and now US companies will have to pay a 25% tax - to Trump.
    elijahg
  • Reply 64 of 77
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,316administrator
    nubus said:

    You and I both know that there is no US manufacturing on this scale to speak of
    If Apple could assemble the previous Mac Pro in US then why not the new one? True, it took months to scale back in 2013, but Apple learned. They made their plans for the new Mac Pro public in 2017. They had years to get this right and the "America First" agenda of Trump is hardly a surprise.

    But Apple didn't prepare and now US companies will have to pay a 25% tax - to Trump.
    They assembled the Mac Pro in Texas with parts shipped from China.
  • Reply 65 of 77
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,316administrator
    tzeshan said:
    The point which seems to have gone missing here so far is that China poses a far more huge threat to our economy and to our sovereignty than IMAGINED price increases of some damn computers which relatively few of us are going to buy anyway.

    So far, tariffs in general have had POSITIVE effects on our economy in the form of factories and manufacturing returning to our shores—to say nothing of the tariff income itself!

    The picture is much bigger than  a mere squabble over Mac Pro manufacturing.

    Just imaging the huge impact a truly-acceptable-to-both-sides trade deal with China will have for the entire planet!! After all, China has been ripping us off for countless decades to the tune of TRILLIONS of dollars, merely because no one before Trump ever called them out for it—and CHINA KNOWS IT!!

    If Trump were to exempt Apple, he'd have to exempt others. Ain't gonna happen!
    How do you know the tariffs have POSITIVE effects on our economy? If you think US economy depends 100% on trade, you have not taken economics 101 course. 
    Quit reading stuff into what I said! President Trump said we've been taking BILLIONS in from tariffs. How can that be a bad thing?
    While the billions is right, who the president says the money is coming from is wrong. The tariffs are taking billions from American companies who are universally passing the costs on to the consumer.
    JWSCmacxpressyoyo2222elijahgGeorgeBMacurahara
  • Reply 66 of 77
    macseekermacseeker Posts: 511member
    badmonk said:

    tzeshan said:
    I want to know where are those Windows PCs and servers made? Are they made in USA? 
    Some are assembled in the US. Nearly every part for every manufacturer comes from China.
    and in Mexico (HP).  And I am concerned that this random shoot from the hip approach to tariffs will achieve nothing but diminish profits, growth and increase consumer costs.  And in the end the jobs will move to Vietnam and Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.

    But this computer is not going to be made in the Wisconsin Foxconn factory.  No matter what.
    Many Chinese and Taiwanese manufacturers have operations in Vietnam, Malaysia, India, parts of Africa, etc. Rising labor costs IN CHINA played a part in this. And I’m referring to a trend which started years ago, not recently.
    Lot's of new nouveau riche has been created in China.  A lot of them are buying properties outside of China.  Nearly every worker in China sees this and they also want the brass ring.  Wages in China are increasing.  From YouTube, I've seen some crazy treatments of very high priced automobiles in China that eventually ends up in the scrap yards.
  • Reply 67 of 77
    davgregdavgreg Posts: 921member
    The argument regarding everything being made in China is not true- much, but not everything.
    There was a time when the base of manufacturing was all in the US and we let it migrate out first to Japan then to Taiwan then to Korea and then to China.

    Elsewhere I have seen reports that more than a few companies are shifting (in the process- not operational yet) production out of China to Vietnam. Part of the incentive is the increasing labor costs in China and another is the large labor pool available in Vietnam.

    Trump is using this as a PR stunt to stir up his base in advance of the next election cycle. I am quite sure someone has explained to him the reality that the spectrum of components sourced in China and elsewhere in the Asia-Pacific region is not coming back to the USA. In the sound bite world of commercial media, nobody is going to bother to explain it and Trump certainly isn’t going to volunteer the info as it does not suit his interests.

    Beyond all the rah-rah flag waving stuff, the simple truth is that the available labor at the bottom of the wage scale that would be needed to make stuff at a competitive price in the USA is not up to the job. We have a lot of well educated and bright people, but we also have a significant number of people with the most marginal education, no job skills, no work ethic and lots of personal baggage. Ask anyone working in HR how widespread the drug problem is in this country- lots of people are not employed in a full employment economy because they cannot pass a drug screen.

    I really do not care where the Mac Pro is made. My new German branded car was made in Mexico and has the same fit and finish as previous models made in Germany.
  • Reply 68 of 77
    It strikes me funny that certain companies have built and are using factories in the USA with no real problems. One such company is BMW. They have their largest car plant in South Carolina. No problems with their products. Apple was building the 2013 version of the Mac Pro in Austin, TX. Why the shift to building the new Mac Pro in China. This is a real screw up by Apple management. Tim Cook even had meetings with Trump to discuss several topics on technology. The stockholders should be screaming at Tim for not being aware or too far trusting of Trump's policies. Apple deserves this kick in the butt. Tim's arrogance should be rewarded with his removal from the CEO position.
    elijahg
  • Reply 69 of 77
    dewmedewme Posts: 3,934member
    It strikes me funny that certain companies have built and are using factories in the USA with no real problems. One such company is BMW. They have their largest car plant in South Carolina. No problems with their products. Apple was building the 2013 version of the Mac Pro in Austin, TX. Why the shift to building the new Mac Pro in China. This is a real screw up by Apple management. Tim Cook even had meetings with Trump to discuss several topics on technology. The stockholders should be screaming at Tim for not being aware or too far trusting of Trump's policies. Apple deserves this kick in the butt. Tim's arrogance should be rewarded with his removal from the CEO position.
    Well, compared to Germany, the US is a lower cost manufacturing center. Plus, it's strategically important that product manufacturers obtain local presence in the countries that they wish to sell their products into. Ideally, they also localize and personalize their products to more closely match the needs and desires of the buying public in the countries they are building in and selling into. It's all about having presence (and to some degree placating the local politicians.) The US is a major target market for BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Toyota, et al and it's very clear that foreign owned companies who build products in the US make their products attractive to US buyers. There's nothing political about this - it's all baked into the 4Ps of Marketing 101.

    The major problem that I've seen in the past with US manufacturers is that they thought they could simply sell whatever it was they made for the US (or North American) market into Asia with little or no consideration for the needs of the local market. Their eyes lit up when the saw "populations in the billions" and "growing consumer class." But they got stupid and forgot marketing fundamentals and misinterpreted their low sales with claims of protectionism - to cover their own ass. Yes, there is some protectionism taking place, both ways, but the bottom line is that you have to make products that appeal to the local market and you have to put real skin in the game by establishing local presence and hiring local workers. It's too easy to fall back on to political BS to cover up the fact that you didn't have your shit together when you went after a new opportunity in a new market with a new customer that you are not yet intimately familiar with. Trying to blame-game your way around your own failures is a losers game, and one that is far too often thrown up as chaff by lazy politicians, bureaucrats, and weak kneed corporate leaders who don't have the guts to do real work or accept failure as a learning experience.
    elijahg
  • Reply 70 of 77
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    The costs are passed on to consumers only if they accept the terms.  

    Unlike some consumers ...I can say "no, that's more than I want to spend". 

    Computers for most people are not devices that have inelastic pricing.  In a Free Market you are able to 
    raise your prices as a vendor and if the consumers want to eat those costs they can eat them but that's a choice. 

    Chinese manufacturing has delivered lower cost product but it has primarily enriched the margins and justified 
    exorbitant stock options for Execs.  


    gatorguy
  • Reply 71 of 77
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,680member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    kestral said:
    Apple should STFU and pay their damn tariffs.
    WE pay those tariffs, not Apple.   Apple is just the middleman.
    It won't make the Apple end-product you purchase 25% more expensive. See the link in my preceding post. 
    Nice strawman you knocked down there! 
    You didn't even bother with the link did you? ;)

    Are you saying you already know it all and have nothing left to learn so why bother reading, or just don't like anyone being helpful 'cause it might interfere with some personal political point you're trying to score? Silly stuff....
    Nobody said it raise prices "25%".   You injected that little strawman and then knocked him down.  
  • Reply 72 of 77
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,680member
    sflocal said:
    A part of me is happy that Apple is not getting a waiver.  Trump made his anti-China stance known fairly early in his administration so Apple apparently being caught unprepared is inexcusable.

    Anyone doing business in China is now on notice.  Since China doesn't play by the rules, they should be punished.  I hope many companies pull out of China and slam the door in its face.  

    I hope this results in Apple expediting moving of their manufacturing outside of China.
    Trump is likely a short timer - IF he even makes it to the next election he is likely to lose it anyway.   The moderates / mainstream America have had enough of his nonsense and all he has now is his "base" -- 1/3 of the country.  

    So why would any company pull out of the place that does it the best and the cheapest?   Like all the rest, they'll placate him till he's history.
  • Reply 73 of 77
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,680member
    JWSC said:
    georgie01 said:
    tomahawk said:
    Easy solution.  Do the same thing retailers love to do with sales.  Put a red slash through it but then put the phrase "Tariff Price: " and make it 25% higher.  Make it crystal clear who is actually paying for the tariffs (US consumers).
    Our culture lives on a dreamboat thinking we can enact great change with minimal inconvenience to our own lives. We’re in a lot of the messes we’re in now because we want to be comfortable, because we don’t want to lose anything ‘important’ to us.

    If we need to pay a ‘25%’ tax on products to help put China in its place then we should be willing.
    The tariff percentages are completely arbitrary and meant to pressure China into blinking. Hasn’t really worked so far, but the President plays hard and it worked with Canada and Mexico. We’ll see how much economic damage China is willing to accept.
    Minor point but don’t forget that the US will also experience economic damage as well.
    China is far more dependent on trade with the US than the reverse.
    As China has made clear, the U.S. is a minor segment of the world economy.   They'll just move on -- Making friends of our enemies and courting Europe, Africa and South America.   And, when Trump is removed from office, they will be stronger than they were before.
  • Reply 74 of 77
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,487member
    Apple manages to assemble iMacs in Cork in Ireland, so not sure why Ireland has the capability but the US apparently doesn’t. iMacs sell likely two orders of magnitude more than Mac Pros. I think it’s more to do with cost of assembly than Cook’s claim of lack of capability/capacity in the US. The tariff is probably less than the difference in assembly cost in the US vs China, so Cook went back to China for more profit. And in any case Apple will probably only sell ~30,000 of these per year (if that) as they’re so specialist, so US manufacturing should be able to cope. 
    edited July 2019 ElCapitan
  • Reply 75 of 77
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,487member
    ElCapitan said:
    There is another alternative: Redesign the damned thing with parts that both can be sourced in the US, and at the same time make the machine more flexible in terms of entry configs (that many have requested), and to use standard memory, disk and graphics cards more readily available. That would also broaden the market for it.
    It does use standard memory and can use standard graphics cards. Additionally, the machine and macOS support PCI-E NVME cards (if not the drives directly in a slot), and has two SATA 3.0 ports internal.

    I'm not sure how much more standard part support you want.

    You and I both know that there is no US manufacturing on this scale to speak of, and there will be no redesign.
    On this scale? They will likely sell a minimal number of these, arguably less than the old MP that they did make in the USA. Also see above comment regarding iMacs from Cork. I’d much rather things made locally, it’s beneficial in many ways from an environmental point of view to economic. 
    edited July 2019
  • Reply 76 of 77
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,054member
    gatorguy said:
    kestral said:
    Apple should STFU and pay their damn tariffs.
    What you’re really saying is that American purchasers  should pay more.
    Short term pain for long term gain? Doesn't sound like a bad trade-off. 

    Besides, who here is buying that machine anyway? It's for enterprise not consumers. 
    Totally agree but think the Tariffs should be at least 50%.
  • Reply 77 of 77
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,316administrator
    elijahg said:
    ElCapitan said:
    There is another alternative: Redesign the damned thing with parts that both can be sourced in the US, and at the same time make the machine more flexible in terms of entry configs (that many have requested), and to use standard memory, disk and graphics cards more readily available. That would also broaden the market for it.
    It does use standard memory and can use standard graphics cards. Additionally, the machine and macOS support PCI-E NVME cards (if not the drives directly in a slot), and has two SATA 3.0 ports internal.

    I'm not sure how much more standard part support you want.

    You and I both know that there is no US manufacturing on this scale to speak of, and there will be no redesign.
    On this scale? They will likely sell a minimal number of these, arguably less than the old MP that they did make in the USA. Also see above comment regarding iMacs from Cork. I’d much rather things made locally, it’s beneficial in many ways from an environmental point of view to economic. 
    And see my remark from earlier in the thread about how even a low capacity build won't happen, and why.
This discussion has been closed.