Has anyone been watching the construction of the Tesla Gigafactory in Shanghai? They broke ground in January 2019. This is a huge facility and the outside is already finished. They've moved inside and as of July 19, "The final closure of the Gigafactory 3 façade and the installation of doors and windows. It indicates that the Tesla G3 will soon begin to install equipment such as auto robots."
Tell me what American company could do this in the same amount of time. If you think Chinese workers can't build anything then look at 90% of the things in your house. They were built by Chinese workers. American manufacturers gave up years ago. All we employ now are stupid MBAs. There used to be a time when the United States was trying to work with other countries for the good of the world. Not any more and that's just plain stupid and selfish.
This has nothing to do with the ability of American companies versus Chinese companies and everything to do with the fact that building factories in China is FAR easier because they don’t have the same environmental restrictions we have in the US. Do they have to do environmental impact reports? No. Do they have the same permit process we have here? No.
Get rid of those restrictions and American companies would be able to compete. There would be a level playing field. The field right now is anything but level.
True! The EPA and the labor union caused the beginning of exodus of US companies to migrate to China in the 80s. And the semiconductor manufacturing was accused of generating poisonous pollutions in the 1980s.
The problem with building a plant in Texas is that pretty much ALL the infrastructure needed to SUPPLY that plant is in China, and that infrastructure would cost billions and billions of dollars to bring here, and isn't even part of Apple. Even the trashcan Mac Pro currently built in Texas is built of subassemblies and parts made overseas.
There was a story a while back about how even the precision SCREWS needed to assemble the iPhone can't be made in the US any more and would have to be sourced from China or elsewhere.
Trump is a real estate mogul. He has NO idea how manufacturing actually works.
As I recall, it was screws for the 'trash can' Mac Pro. The found one company in California that made the screws (special order I think) and a guy from the assembly plant drove his station wagon to pick up the first load of them. We do need to bring manufacturing back to the USA but in an intelligent way. I was watching a PBS show a year or so ago about manufacturing in the USA over the decades. We actually make more stuff here than we did in the 1980s but lost jobs in the process. Most of the job loss was because of automation though. A good case study is to look at the automobile industry. We make a lot more cars with a lot fewer people.
Has anyone been watching the construction of the Tesla Gigafactory in Shanghai? They broke ground in January 2019. This is a huge facility and the outside is already finished. They've moved inside and as of July 19, "The final closure of the Gigafactory 3 façade and the installation of doors and windows. It indicates that the Tesla G3 will soon begin to install equipment such as auto robots."
Tell me what American company could do this in the same amount of time. If you think Chinese workers can't build anything then look at 90% of the things in your house. They were built by Chinese workers. American manufacturers gave up years ago. All we employ now are stupid MBAs. There used to be a time when the United States was trying to work with other countries for the good of the world. Not any more and that's just plain stupid and selfish.
This has nothing to do with the ability of American companies versus Chinese companies and everything to do with the fact that building factories in China is FAR easier because they don’t have the same environmental restrictions we have in the US. Do they have to do environmental impact reports? No. Do they have the same permit process we have here? No.
Get rid of those restrictions and American companies would be able to compete. There would be a level playing field. The field right now is anything but level.
True! The EPA and the labor union caused the beginning of exodus of US companies to migrate to China in the 80s. And the semiconductor manufacturing was accused of generating poisonous pollutions in the 1980s.
Is that why all those non-union factories closed? How does that work?
daven said: We actually make more stuff here than we did in the 1980s but lost jobs in the process. Most of the job loss was because of automation though.
Has anyone been watching the construction of the Tesla Gigafactory in Shanghai? They broke ground in January 2019. This is a huge facility and the outside is already finished. They've moved inside and as of July 19, "The final closure of the Gigafactory 3 façade and the installation of doors and windows. It indicates that the Tesla G3 will soon begin to install equipment such as auto robots."
Tell me what American company could do this in the same amount of time. If you think Chinese workers can't build anything then look at 90% of the things in your house. They were built by Chinese workers. American manufacturers gave up years ago. All we employ now are stupid MBAs. There used to be a time when the United States was trying to work with other countries for the good of the world. Not any more and that's just plain stupid and selfish.
This has nothing to do with the ability of American companies versus Chinese companies and everything to do with the fact that building factories in China is FAR easier because they don’t have the same environmental restrictions we have in the US. Do they have to do environmental impact reports? No. Do they have the same permit process we have here? No.
Get rid of those restrictions and American companies would be able to compete. There would be a level playing field. The field right now is anything but level.
True! The EPA and the labor union caused the beginning of exodus of US companies to migrate to China in the 80s. And the semiconductor manufacturing was accused of generating poisonous pollutions in the 1980s.
Is that why all those non-union factories closed? How does that work?
They could be due to EPA. And in the later years China has set up its infrastructure to make manufacturing there much more economical than in US.
Trump buys Chinese Steel for construction Surely he can understand why most companies manufacture in China.
If Trump was smart, he would figure out a way to win manufacturing back to the US not force them back with a trade war. I predict that Tesla will move its US manufacturing to China.
Cook doesn't know what to do with the hundreds of billions that Apple is accumulated. Here’s a tip, Timmy. How about figuring out robotic manufacturing and becoming a service provider to other companies in the field of robotics?
Otherwise, how does it feel, Timmy, to have outsourced manufacturing to China two decades ago to realize now that you have contributed to killing the American manufacturing skill set?
You, Timmy, along with the politicians whom you bribed decades ago, are the traitors who surrendered the American manufacturing might to China.
Surely Apple could see this coming. Back in 2013 they proudly announced that the Mac Pro would be built in the US. Six years later, in the middle of the MAGA presidency in which Trump threatened numerous manufacturers who were considering moving production abroad, they decide to move production from Texas to China. Then, in the middle of tariff wars, they ask Trump to give them a pass?
Was the negative PR (Apple is all over national news today) worth it?
Now there is an expectation that Apple build a factory in Texas. If that was already in the works, Trump gets credit for strong arming Apple. If Apple has no such plans, it now faces pressure to do so. And if it ultimately decides not to build a factory, it'll face backlash from the MAGA crowd, which is formidable.
Unless there's something I'm missing, this was not well played.
Trump buys Chinese Steel for construction Surely he can understand why most companies manufacture in China.
If Trump was smart, he would figure out a way to win manufacturing back to the US not force them back with a trade war. I predict that Tesla will move its US manufacturing to China.
You predict wrong. Shipping cars from China is a lot more expensive than shipping iPhones. You can ship 10,000 iPhones ($10 million worth) in the same container you can ship one car.
With a national leader that pampers to the ignorant and ignores economic realities, it's not China overtaking but the US crashing itself!
If Apple's existing MacPro plant is economically sensible then why would Apple even think about taking the next MacPro off-shore? Trump is just desperate for his electoral fortunes and willing to pawn the US corporations and the national economy to that end. He needs to show that he has brought jobs back at others' expense. It's all about PR.
This has nothing to do with the ability of American companies versus Chinese companies and everything to do with the fact that building factories in China is FAR easier because they don’t have the same environmental restrictions we have in the US. Do they have to do environmental impact reports? No. Do they have the same permit process we have here? No.
Get rid of those restrictions and American companies would be able to compete. There would be a level playing field. The field right now is anything but level.
I'm really tired of "leaders" who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and yet talk anyway. I'm aware this has always been something of a problem, but of late the sheer amount of incredibly stupid and/or easily-disproven and/or outright, bald-faced lies has amped up 10,000 percent. It angers me because it is hurting the US, and it is largely self-inflicted. The worst part: these "leaders" have staffs who are supposed to learn and then brief them on these issues so they don't come off sounding like idiots -- but as anyone who watched the recent hearings can attest, those staffers are either not doing their jobs or they are being ignored.
PS. No sir, Apple is not building or thinking of building a manufacturing plant in Texas, even only just for show. Please see your "help" in the state of Wisconsin with Foxconn's "plant" to see how that would likely go.
So, Tim is right, as far as his statement goes. But let’s not forget who built up China - American bean counters who, it turns out, really didn’t know which beans they should be counting.
First it was, ‘Chinese labor is cheap’ so let’s manufacture there. And then ‘oh crap, the Chinese don’t have proper infrastructure’ so let’s get them started with that. Then more second tier Chinese suppliers sprung up, and more infrastructure was put in place. And then large regions such as Shenzhen turned into massive draws for subsistence farmers looking for a better life. And they morphed into a large and highly skilled labor force. And then even more infrastructure was put in place.
But the bean counters neglected to take full account of the logistics needed to ship all the bits and pieces all around the world. And what might have worked OK 20 years ago is woefully out of date today. But we can’t change our sourcing now. China has the infrastructure, right??!
So yea, China has all that going for it now. I begrudge them not. But the US, and Europe, can and should have that too.
All the excuses in the world can’t take away from the fact that American CEOs, CFOs and their assorted bean counters sold out their communities and their company rank and file to get a few extra pennies on the dollar out of product so they could please their stockholders and get those extra bonuses, while their US factories got shut down and their once loyal employees got a pick slip. That’s a f-ing bitter pill to swallow.
Tim, do better!
Hahaha...claiming credits for America again. Com’on...most of the electronics manufacturing know-how/skill were largely brought over to China by Taiwanese firms. Foxconn is just one good example. Hon Hai (parent of Foxconn) is a Taiwanese firm that started off electronics manufacturing way before American firms even swamped to China.
Compared to the U.S., China offers relatively cheap, high-quality and, perhaps most importantly, responsive labor. Apple production partners like Foxconn can deploy tens of thousands of workers on short notice, and run production facilities around the clock to meet strict deadlines.
My hunch is that more than skill, this is the big one. In the USA, they'd be dealing with labor laws and overtime, and the inability to just bring people on and let them go as needed. US labor laws (which aren't typically that great to begin with compared to other countries, or maybe California) make doing this kind of thing really hard/expensive... even if the pay-rate were identical (which it almost certainly isn't). And, then if unions get involved...
... Even the trashcan Mac Pro currently built in Texas is built of subassemblies and parts made overseas.
There was a story a while back about how even the precision SCREWS needed to assemble the iPhone can't be made in the US any more and would have to be sourced from China or elsewhere.
Trump is a real estate mogul. He has NO idea how manufacturing actually works.
Well, like most every other product. Very few products are made in one place. The whole screw thing is kind of silly, as they'd just buy the necessary screw from a supplier, and it would come from wherever it needs to come from.
It's like cars, people think of Japanese cars, American cars, German cars, etc. but those are rather useless designations in terms of where they are made and especially where the parts were made. For example, I think the most overall American vehicle for many recent years, was actually a Toyota Tundra (truck).
While I agree that it wouldn't be simple to bring some manufacturing back to the USA, it also won't likely happen without a bit of pressure to do so. Everyone can't be coders (nor do we need everyone to be). Having some manufacturing capability would be good for keeping the workforce more broad, but also is a skill that shouldn't be too absent in an individual country, IMO. Maybe he's not going about it properly, but I think the general idea isn't a bad one.
News flash: President of a country advocates for companies to make things in their country and supply jobs to their people.
These comments seem like the don't throw the baby with the bathwater situation.
Well, then there is the thesis that at least the more radicals on one side of the political spectrum actually want the country to 'crash and burn' so they will oppose this kind of move.
JWSC said: All the excuses in the world can’t take away from the fact that American CEOs, CFOs and their assorted bean counters sold out their communities and their company rank and file to get a few extra pennies on the dollar out of product so they could please their stockholders and get those extra bonuses, while their US factories got shut down and their once loyal employees got a pick slip. That’s a f-ing bitter pill to swallow.
Well said. Though, it took decades for what you describe to happen, and would take quite some time to reverse. It can't just be done by giving an order. And, it isn't necessarily bad to have a global economic and manufacturing system like we now have. But, it is bad if it all goes away, as it mostly has... and especially for the reasons it went.
tzeshan said: Why is that? Because US labor unions are very strong and greedy.
Yeah, I kind of have a love/hate relationship with unions. On the one hand, they have been an essential part of balancing power, improving safety, etc. On the other hand, I don't think they were ever intended to become huge national self-interested conglomerates. They have become so self-interested, that they often fail to properly do what they were created for in the first place.
I worked with an industrial design company years ago that was scaling up a big manufacturing project. I remember sitting at the table with pretty high up reps from both the steel-worker and carpenters unions who absolutely refused to stay at the table because it was being proposed that the workers at the plants needed to have some cross-training of skills. (And, I still remember the look on the faces of the initial workers who were enthusiastic about the project and skill-development, who couldn't quite believe what they were hearing.)
flydog said: It’s pretty easy to spew out these illogical rants. A lot harder to research, learn the facts, and apply sound reaasoning to those facts.
Bottom line is that the US lacks the labor force required to build electronics on the scale needed by Apple. Has nothing to do with “selling out.”
I don't think that statement was about the Apple situation specifically. It was about what has been happening over the course of decades, to the point where the USA can't compete in manufacturing anymore.
tylersdad said: Get rid of those restrictions and American companies would be able to compete. There would be a level playing field. The field right now is anything but level.
Yeah, and they probably also don't have to meet the same safety standards and such. We don't want to level that playing field. I think the real question is whether US consumers would be patriotic enough to pay some higher prices for things produced locally. My hunch is that they wouldn't, and most of the ones that would, probably would just have to do without.
mjtomlin said: This... have you seen this latest generation of Americans...spoiled, entitled, self-centered and don’t want to do anything. They have no work ethic whatsoever... I wouldn’t count on any labor jobs coming to America anytime soon, unless we reopen our borders and let those in who will actually work for a paycheck.
Unfortunately for Trump, his “Make America Great Again” won’t really happen if he keeps the real American workforce on the other side of a giant wall.
There is some truth to this, but it's an over-generalization, too. Also, it didn't happen in a vacuum. There have been a ton of bad decisions over decades that have led to this state of things. It won't be quick to reverse, even with a lot of effort. And, things don't even seem to be moving in the right direction. While I can appreciate some of what Trump is attempting to do, one can't just give an order from the top and 'make it so.' He has one heck of a mess all the way down to fix if that is the goal.
Trump buys Chinese Steel for construction Surely he can understand why most companies manufacture in China.
If Trump was smart, he would figure out a way to win manufacturing back to the US not force them back with a trade war. I predict that Tesla will move its US manufacturing to China.
They have to if they wants to sell in greater numbers than they currently is able to.
Just look at those top 5 global sales auto makers. Name one that doesn’t manufacture in China or other lower-cost locations than America?
Comments
Surely he can understand why most companies manufacture in China.
If Trump was smart, he would figure out a way to win manufacturing back to the US not force them back with a trade war.
I predict that Tesla will move its US manufacturing to China.
Otherwise, how does it feel, Timmy, to have outsourced manufacturing to China two decades ago to realize now that you have contributed to killing the American manufacturing skill set?
You, Timmy, along with the politicians whom
you bribed decades ago, are the traitors who surrendered the American manufacturing might to China.
Was the negative PR (Apple is all over national news today) worth it?
Now there is an expectation that Apple build a factory in Texas. If that was already in the works, Trump gets credit for strong arming Apple. If Apple has no such plans, it now faces pressure to do so. And if it ultimately decides not to build a factory, it'll face backlash from the MAGA crowd, which is formidable.
Unless there's something I'm missing, this was not well played.
China is a lot more expensive than shipping iPhones. You can ship 10,000 iPhones ($10 million worth) in the same container you can ship one car.
Trump expects Apple to build manufacturing plant in Texas
Trump believes a lot of things. It's called being delusional. Trump is severely mentally ill after all.If Apple's existing MacPro plant is economically sensible then why would Apple even think about taking the next MacPro off-shore? Trump is just desperate for his electoral fortunes and willing to pawn the US corporations and the national economy to that end. He needs to show that he has brought jobs back at others' expense. It's all about PR.
Well, like most every other product. Very few products are made in one place. The whole screw thing is kind of silly, as they'd just buy the necessary screw from a supplier, and it would come from wherever it needs to come from.
It's like cars, people think of Japanese cars, American cars, German cars, etc. but those are rather useless designations in terms of where they are made and especially where the parts were made. For example, I think the most overall American vehicle for many recent years, was actually a Toyota Tundra (truck).
While I agree that it wouldn't be simple to bring some manufacturing back to the USA, it also won't likely happen without a bit of pressure to do so. Everyone can't be coders (nor do we need everyone to be). Having some manufacturing capability would be good for keeping the workforce more broad, but also is a skill that shouldn't be too absent in an individual country, IMO. Maybe he's not going about it properly, but I think the general idea isn't a bad one.
Well, then there is the thesis that at least the more radicals on one side of the political spectrum actually want the country to 'crash and burn' so they will oppose this kind of move.
Well said. Though, it took decades for what you describe to happen, and would take quite some time to reverse. It can't just be done by giving an order. And, it isn't necessarily bad to have a global economic and manufacturing system like we now have. But, it is bad if it all goes away, as it mostly has... and especially for the reasons it went.
Yeah, I kind of have a love/hate relationship with unions. On the one hand, they have been an essential part of balancing power, improving safety, etc. On the other hand, I don't think they were ever intended to become huge national self-interested conglomerates. They have become so self-interested, that they often fail to properly do what they were created for in the first place.
I worked with an industrial design company years ago that was scaling up a big manufacturing project. I remember sitting at the table with pretty high up reps from both the steel-worker and carpenters unions who absolutely refused to stay at the table because it was being proposed that the workers at the plants needed to have some cross-training of skills. (And, I still remember the look on the faces of the initial workers who were enthusiastic about the project and skill-development, who couldn't quite believe what they were hearing.)
I don't think that statement was about the Apple situation specifically. It was about what has been happening over the course of decades, to the point where the USA can't compete in manufacturing anymore.
Yeah, and they probably also don't have to meet the same safety standards and such. We don't want to level that playing field.
I think the real question is whether US consumers would be patriotic enough to pay some higher prices for things produced locally. My hunch is that they wouldn't, and most of the ones that would, probably would just have to do without.
There is some truth to this, but it's an over-generalization, too. Also, it didn't happen in a vacuum. There have been a ton of bad decisions over decades that have led to this state of things. It won't be quick to reverse, even with a lot of effort. And, things don't even seem to be moving in the right direction. While I can appreciate some of what Trump is attempting to do, one can't just give an order from the top and 'make it so.' He has one heck of a mess all the way down to fix if that is the goal.
much like all those imaginary FoxConn jobs: pure fantasy.
I blame the failing WH HVAC. Just replaced in 2017 too. sAd!
Just look at those top 5 global sales auto makers. Name one that doesn’t manufacture in China or other lower-cost locations than America?
not to mention the infamous MAGA hats are mostly made in China! Shouldn’t he just set an example?