Trump could always focus on his campaign promise about spending trillions on domestic infrastructure. That would guarantee a lot of jobs for American workers and an end product that was produced/located in the United States. The fact that he's blown that off gives you a pretty good idea of how serious he actually is about building things in this country.
Kudos to the mods for leaving this forum up. Yes, plenty of political manifestos, but some entertaining and occasionally insightful comments.
It's borderline. There have been problems, and it's been time-consuming to moderate. If everybody can agree to keep it to a dull roar, we'll keep it up.
GeorgeBMac said: Generally speaking: American workers are fat and lazy and American executives greedy b's who only care about their next quarterly bonus and the value fo their stock options.
The irony of that statement is that the United States always ranks in the Top 10 in the world for productivity and China does not.
It's a shame Apple is insisting on charging Assembled in USA prices for the new Mac Pro while still moving production to China..they could get around the tariffs probably by doing final assembly in Austin like the old Mac Pro?
Apple should just bite the bullet and produce everything for the American market in the US.
True, it will take ages, causing huge delays, and spectacular price hikes. Not to mention they’ll have to import talent from overseas, so immigration will be a big hurdle too.
Oh, and no import of raw materials and resources from Africa. Get your own coltan! And while at it: keep your trash instead of exporting it to third world countries that don’t have waste management systems. No exploiting of other countries anymore by the USA. That’ll a be the day!
GeorgeBMac said: Generally speaking: American workers are fat and lazy and American executives greedy b's who only care about their next quarterly bonus and the value fo their stock options.
The irony of that statement is that the United States always ranks in the Top 10 in the world for productivity and China does not.
Is that why we lost our industry to, first Japan, then China? Because we make things better and cheaper? Umm -- somebody better tell all those corporations that they could make their things better and cheaper here. They must have been confused these past 5 decades.
Generally speaking: American workers are fat and lazy and American executives greedy b's who only care about their next quarterly bonus and the value fo their stock options.
America was built by hungry workers working for committed, dedicated owner/managers with vision and long range goals -- From Carnegie to Jobs. When we get back to that, the jobs will return. Not before."
WOW!, if case you've just awaken from a 10 year coma America has entered another "gilded age" filled with "robber barons" a small percentage of the population owing 90% of the wealth. Oh those good old days of child labor, no workers rights and little to no social safety net for the working poor.
It's a shame Apple is insisting on charging Assembled in USA prices for the new Mac Pro while still moving production to China..they could get around the tariffs probably by doing final assembly in Austin like the old Mac Pro?
The new Mac Pro is priced no different than any other professional workstation in its class, and in some cases cheaper than its competition. To me, it makes no sense to make all of the parts in China and ship them over for a robotic assembly plant in the US just so you can inscribe Made in the USA on the bottom of the tower. There's no infrastructure to make all of the parts here in the US.
We need good and beneficial relationships with China and other trading partners.
If Apple wants to build a factory in Texas, great, if it works for Apple. But don't do it for Donald.
That’s a laugh. He’ll easily sail to another 4 year term. Mark my words.
Win the electoral vote? Possibly. (He'll lose the popular vote by 5 million). With 20+ Democrats running, it's inevitable that a fair percentage of Democratic/liberal voters will be unhappy with whoever gets the nomination. If they pull what many pulled in 2016 and either stay home or vote third party, Trump can win. But if they show up and vote like they did in the mid-terms, Trump will lose "bigly". In 2016, if just 14% (on average) of third party voters in WI, MI and PA had voted for Hillary, she'd be in the White House now (or if an equivalent number of Democratic/liberal voters had showed up to vote). Clinton didn't need a single Trump voter to change their vote. The election in 2016 was determined by just 77,744 3rd party voters. Considering that 100 million people in this country don't even bother to vote, that's nothing. Turnout will determine the election, either way.
And I think we know by now that Donald simply says things that have little or no basis in reality. He has a friendly conversation with a CEO and tells the CEO that they should have factories in the U.S. and the CEO nods and Trump thinks he has an agreement.
As far as manufacturing is concerned, I've personally never bought into the argument that China has the infrastructure and we don't/can't/won't. If the factories did come back and the need was there, the infrastructure would happen quite quickly because there are plenty of companies looking for such opportunities. If Tesla can build cars in the U.S., Apple (and others) can build computers in the U.S., even if they're just doing assembly with foreign-made parts. Having said that, in the Summer of 2017, U.S. manufacturing output hit an all time record. But the jobs weren't there because so much of manufacturing is automated today. So I think it's a bit naive to believe that if factories did come back to the U.S. that they wouldn't be highly automated anyway (especially in the tech sector) and not that many new jobs would result. Any politician of any party who claims they can bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S. is a liar.
Besides, I think it's unfair to judge Apple's support of U.S. workers solely by how many manufacturing jobs they would have. Apple (and any U.S. company) should be judged by how many people they employ in good paying jobs of any type. Depending upon what you believe, Apple supposedly has 115,000 employees worldwide with "most" of those jobs in the U.S. Apple claims to be "responsible" for 2 million jobs in the U.S. including suppliers, third party retail, outside agencies, etc. If accurate, I believe Apple is doing fine as far as their responsibility to hire U.S. workers is concerned. And with the possible exception of retail store workers, they pay quite well.
In addition, labor-intensive manufacturing would never come back to the U.S. even if it did leave China. Instead, it would go to Vietnam, India, Malaysia, etc. Manufacturing will always go where labor is cheapest unless it's automated. And 30 years from now, I believe we'll see manufacturing move to countries in Africa.
China took decades to make China a manufacturing powerhouse. They could do it because it is a totalitarian state.
Manufacturing stuff in the U.S. is not the way to beat China.
China developed into a manufacturing powerhouse because of leadership vision and hard work, nothing to do with being totalitarian. Further, if totalitarian can bring on a 40 fold increase in the national GDP, alleviate 500M people out of poverty, change the national transport infrastructure with 25,000km of high speed rail, bringing national health care to all the citizens amongst others, then I'm all for that form of totalitarianism! LOL
Being stuck in a multi-decades old Cold War mentality does not help.
Leadership vision and hard work is not enough, you need people to execute this vision and do the right kind of hard work. This is easier to accomplish in a totalitarian state. If everybody wants to be a millionaire, big shot lawyer, famous athlete or movie star, and they are free tot try, executing the vision is harder.
Obviously Apple is not going to help American manufacturing workers and manufacturing engineers without a push. Glad that Trump is doing that.
Of the entire product line the Pro may be the best model to take a bit of a margin hit on to do that.
China did not grow its infrastructure over 2-3 years and neither will Texas. Got to start somewhere. This is a generational shift. Without a command economy like China it’s gonna be harder but needs to be done. The only government levers we have to help manufacturing is NASA and military purchasing.
The major thing standing in the way of US labor cost is the cost of housing. That’s another topic
Why does American manufacturing need to be brought back from the dead? Why try to revive the past? Why not move on?
You cannot beat China. Do something they cannot. Attack the enemy where they are weak, not where they are strong.
Funny to read how misguided people are. The US did not lose jobs to China. Globalisation was invented by and for US companies to become wealthy. They became rich and powerful because of it. And the Republican Party was happy to go along.
Off course only a small percentage of the population gained anything in the process. But you get what you bargained for. And republicans now pack peddling under the current nationalistic wave? That’s a joke.
The problem with building a plant in Texas is that pretty much ALL the infrastructure needed to SUPPLY that plant is in China, and that infrastructure would cost billions and billions of dollars to bring here, and isn't even part of Apple. Even the trashcan Mac Pro currently built in Texas is built of subassemblies and parts made overseas.
There was a story a while back about how even the precision SCREWS needed to assemble the iPhone can't be made in the US any more and would have to be sourced from China or elsewhere.
Trump is a real estate mogul. He has NO idea how manufacturing actually works.
There is fact and then there is that sticky BS that flavors your shoes. The part about screws is one form of that sticky BS. Frankly it costs very little To buy the machines to make those screws. The problem from the manufactures standpoint is that you have to have enough business to keep that machine and the employee running it busy. No one wants to hire a person for a weeks production just to keep Apple happy.
Have no interest in giving people jobs in the US in favour over China. There is no reason to favour US over China in anything, unless you live in the US of course.
China makes top quality products and have highly skilled workers. However, I do want workers to be treated decently no matter where they are.
What US companies will do is look at other countries where it will be cheaper to manufacture, not bring it back to the US.
So really this is all about being anti-China not the bring-back-jobs to-the-US move.
Sure it is being anti China and for good reasons. They are an oppressive regime hell bent on stealing as much of Asia as they can. That is why I look at this as an anywhere but China (and a few other places) movement.
We do need beneficial trading partners, but a relationship is a two way street, China can’t be allowed to take advantage of the US. This isn’t anti-China, or political, just common sense.
Speaking to the actual post, it would be inspiring to see Apple pull off the automated manufacturing facility they attempted in the 80s. Even though this isn’t Apple’s business model, it would be a testament to modern manufacturing.
Apple may be forced to do just that and guess who wins?
Not employees.
Silly statement to make. I’ve worked in manufacturing almost all of my life. The current place had some extremely manual processes that have been replaced with automation. Production has gone up to the point that a new building is going up. Employment has actually increased. Perhaps more importantly on the job injuries are way down. Automation is a big win for workers.
Beyond all of that, automation requires technical worker and I’m a member of one such group. There are many similar ch departments of highly skilled employees. So it isn’t just the labor that wins with automation.
I'm really tired of "leaders" who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and yet talk anyway. I'm aware this has always been something of a problem, but of late the sheer amount of incredibly stupid and/or easily-disproven and/or outright, bald-faced lies has amped up 10,000 percent. It angers me because it is hurting the US, and it is largely self-inflicted. The worst part: these "leaders" have staffs who are supposed to learn and then brief them on these issues so they don't come off sounding like idiots -- but as anyone who watched the recent hearings can attest, those staffers are either not doing their jobs or they are being ignored.
So how do you know what Cook has committed to or even lied to the current administration about? Corporate executive regularly lie to public officials so you can’t really say what is up here.
China took decades to make China a manufacturing powerhouse. They could do it because it is a totalitarian state.
Manufacturing stuff in the U.S. is not the way to beat China.
Attack your enemy where he is weak, not where he is strong.
Nope!
they did it because the USA and many other countries sent billions to China to exploit a weak population, a strange legal system, the lack of environmental controls and a government that wanted to benefit significantly from that influx of money.
There is is no need to attack China we just need to discontinue all business with them. Contrary to popular opinion it isn’t that difficult to do. By the way that we s to disrupt the government in China.
Apple should just bite the bullet and produce everything for the American market in the US.
True, it will take ages, causing huge delays, and spectacular price hikes. Not to mention they’ll have to import talent from overseas, so immigration will be a big hurdle too.
Oh, and no import of raw materials and resources from Africa. Get your own coltan! And while at it: keep your trash instead of exporting it to third world countries that don’t have waste management systems. No exploiting of other countries anymore by the USA. That’ll a be the day!
The hypocrisy of America First is truly shocking.
What a pack of lies. One; it would take ages. Two; there would be no delays (it is all about management). Three; there would be no spectacular price hikes, remember this stuff was produced in the US. Every manufacture that went to China pocketed the extra dollars they made and never passed on the savings. Fourth; there is no need to import talent anymore than they already do. Immigration isn’t a problem illegal immigration is (there is a massive difference).
_ How much more vexing are the sassy dismissals that tell the public to rejoice at the prospect of cheaper cars and TV sets, which they can no longer afford, and advise them to seek jobs growing soy beans or servicing bank accounts. This, remember, is a replay of the advice John Bowring gave the member states of the German Zollverein in 1840: grow wheat, and sell it to buy British manufacturers. This was a sublime example of economic good sense; but Germany would have been the poorer for it. Today’s comparative advantage, we have seen, may not be tomorrow’s.
_
David S. Landes, The Wealth and Poverty of Nations: Why Some Are So Rich and Some So Poor (New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1998), 521.
Comments
WOW!, if case you've just awaken from a 10 year coma America has entered another "gilded age" filled with "robber barons" a small percentage of the population owing 90% of the wealth. Oh those good old days of child labor, no workers rights and little to no social safety net for the working poor.
And I think we know by now that Donald simply says things that have little or no basis in reality. He has a friendly conversation with a CEO and tells the CEO that they should have factories in the U.S. and the CEO nods and Trump thinks he has an agreement.
As far as manufacturing is concerned, I've personally never bought into the argument that China has the infrastructure and we don't/can't/won't. If the factories did come back and the need was there, the infrastructure would happen quite quickly because there are plenty of companies looking for such opportunities. If Tesla can build cars in the U.S., Apple (and others) can build computers in the U.S., even if they're just doing assembly with foreign-made parts. Having said that, in the Summer of 2017, U.S. manufacturing output hit an all time record. But the jobs weren't there because so much of manufacturing is automated today. So I think it's a bit naive to believe that if factories did come back to the U.S. that they wouldn't be highly automated anyway (especially in the tech sector) and not that many new jobs would result. Any politician of any party who claims they can bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S. is a liar.
Besides, I think it's unfair to judge Apple's support of U.S. workers solely by how many manufacturing jobs they would have. Apple (and any U.S. company) should be judged by how many people they employ in good paying jobs of any type. Depending upon what you believe, Apple supposedly has 115,000 employees worldwide with "most" of those jobs in the U.S. Apple claims to be "responsible" for 2 million jobs in the U.S. including suppliers, third party retail, outside agencies, etc. If accurate, I believe Apple is doing fine as far as their responsibility to hire U.S. workers is concerned. And with the possible exception of retail store workers, they pay quite well.
In addition, labor-intensive manufacturing would never come back to the U.S. even if it did leave China. Instead, it would go to Vietnam, India, Malaysia, etc. Manufacturing will always go where labor is cheapest unless it's automated. And 30 years from now, I believe we'll see manufacturing move to countries in Africa.
You cannot beat China. Do something they cannot. Attack the enemy where they are weak, not where they are strong.
Off course only a small percentage of the population gained anything in the process. But you get what you bargained for. And republicans now pack peddling under the current nationalistic wave? That’s a joke.
Beyond all of that, automation requires technical worker and I’m a member of one such group. There are many similar ch departments of highly skilled employees. So it isn’t just the labor that wins with automation.
they did it because the USA and many other countries sent billions to China to exploit a weak population, a strange legal system, the lack of environmental controls and a government that wanted to benefit significantly from that influx of money.
There is is no need to attack China we just need to discontinue all business with them. Contrary to popular opinion it isn’t that difficult to do. By the way that we s to disrupt the government in China.
How much more vexing are the sassy dismissals that tell the public to rejoice at the prospect of cheaper cars and TV sets, which they can no longer afford, and advise them to seek jobs growing soy beans or servicing bank accounts. This, remember, is a replay of the advice John Bowring gave the member states of the German Zollverein in 1840: grow wheat, and sell it to buy British manufacturers. This was a sublime example of economic good sense; but Germany would have been the poorer for it. Today’s comparative advantage, we have seen, may not be tomorrow’s.