AT&T to roll out true 5G to consumers in 'weeks'

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  • Reply 41 of 103
    MplsPmplsp Posts: 4,177member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    I'll trade AT&T for Huawei any day of the week:
    Since 2015, China has reportedly outspent the US by $24 billion in 5G infrastructure. In the same period, according to media reports, the US built fewer than 30,000 new cell sites, while the corresponding number in China was more than 10 times higher.

    But, that is probably the biggest reason Apple needs to roll out a 5G phone as quickly as possible -- simply to stay competitive.   We can't look at Keokuk, Iowa or Hillbilly, WV and use that as the basis for whether we need 5G phones of not.

    I always have to laugh at you throwing out such numbers from China, and especially, as if China is all that far along in 5G operation;

    https://www.worldtimezone.com/5g.html

    That link suggests that China wouldn't have any Commerciall 5G until October of this year, which was behind the U.S., among others. Apple shipping iPhones in volume next September with mmwave 5G capabilities will still be far ahead of most of the 5G infrastructure yet to occur by any country or telecom.

    And here's another couple of links to Chinese spying and influence;

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/defecting-chinese-spy-offers-information-trove-to-australian-government-20191122-p53d1l.html

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/peter-hartcher-on-china-s-infiltration-of-australia-20191118-p53bly.html

    The security problem for Huawei in the West is that China and the CCP controls Huawei, so why would any country allow Huawei into critical telecom infrastructure?

    An example from the Philippines;

    https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3038655/china-can-turn-philippine-national-power-grid-officials-say

    Oh, and Merkel in Germany is under fire from her own party to reverse her position on allowing Huawei in Germany's telecom infrastructure:

    https://www.dw.com/en/german-parliament-to-decide-on-huawei-5g-involvement-merkels-cdu-party-agrees/a-51379848

    Of course, China is threatening Germany with trade reprisals.
    No, sorry, but 5G is already up and running in China and expanding rapidly.
    And, no, despite a plethora of right wing conspiracy theories, Huawei is not controlled by the Chinese government or the CCP.
    And, while there are always some paranoid right wing conspiracy theorists having hissy fits, even the Trump administration has backed off their claims that there is any evidence Huawei has ever spied on anybody.  That nonsense is just propaganda to support Trump's failing Trade War.
    It's quite humorous that you never post any links to support your POV or arguments wrt China, yet are happy to post, twice, "right wing conspiracy theory" as if I didn't actually post factual links.



    Posting links?   You and Trump can make it up faster than I can disprove it.  It would be an exercise in futility.  I'll just stick to reality.
    One person posts supporting evidence. The other just makes claims without any support. Why should anyone believe you?
    tmay
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  • Reply 42 of 103
    GeorgeBMacgeorgebmac Posts: 11,421member
    MplsP said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    I'll trade AT&T for Huawei any day of the week:
    Since 2015, China has reportedly outspent the US by $24 billion in 5G infrastructure. In the same period, according to media reports, the US built fewer than 30,000 new cell sites, while the corresponding number in China was more than 10 times higher.

    But, that is probably the biggest reason Apple needs to roll out a 5G phone as quickly as possible -- simply to stay competitive.   We can't look at Keokuk, Iowa or Hillbilly, WV and use that as the basis for whether we need 5G phones of not.

    I always have to laugh at you throwing out such numbers from China, and especially, as if China is all that far along in 5G operation;

    https://www.worldtimezone.com/5g.html

    That link suggests that China wouldn't have any Commerciall 5G until October of this year, which was behind the U.S., among others. Apple shipping iPhones in volume next September with mmwave 5G capabilities will still be far ahead of most of the 5G infrastructure yet to occur by any country or telecom.

    And here's another couple of links to Chinese spying and influence;

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/defecting-chinese-spy-offers-information-trove-to-australian-government-20191122-p53d1l.html

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/peter-hartcher-on-china-s-infiltration-of-australia-20191118-p53bly.html

    The security problem for Huawei in the West is that China and the CCP controls Huawei, so why would any country allow Huawei into critical telecom infrastructure?

    An example from the Philippines;

    https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3038655/china-can-turn-philippine-national-power-grid-officials-say

    Oh, and Merkel in Germany is under fire from her own party to reverse her position on allowing Huawei in Germany's telecom infrastructure:

    https://www.dw.com/en/german-parliament-to-decide-on-huawei-5g-involvement-merkels-cdu-party-agrees/a-51379848

    Of course, China is threatening Germany with trade reprisals.
    No, sorry, but 5G is already up and running in China and expanding rapidly.
    And, no, despite a plethora of right wing conspiracy theories, Huawei is not controlled by the Chinese government or the CCP.
    And, while there are always some paranoid right wing conspiracy theorists having hissy fits, even the Trump administration has backed off their claims that there is any evidence Huawei has ever spied on anybody.  That nonsense is just propaganda to support Trump's failing Trade War.
    It's quite humorous that you never post any links to support your POV or arguments wrt China, yet are happy to post, twice, "right wing conspiracy theory" as if I didn't actually post factual links.



    Posting links?   You and Trump can make it up faster than I can disprove it.  It would be an exercise in futility.  I'll just stick to reality.
    One person posts supporting evidence. The other just makes claims without any support. Why should anyone believe you?
    We have seen from far left & far right politics how listing "facts" is a great way to tell a lie because, when one starts with the conclusion and then backs into whatever facts support that conclusion the result is still bull no matter how many "Facts" they roll out.

    As I said, I'll stick to reality.  You can believe it or not.  That's up to you.
    muthuk_vanalingam
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  • Reply 43 of 103
    Much of the debate over 5G is sourced from the Trump administration's fact free strong arming of U.S. allies to boycot the leading supplier of 5G technology simply because it is Chinese.   Their latest attempt is to both frighten and extort Canada by threatening to spurn them if they decide to roll out their 5G using Huawei technology.  

    According to U.S. national security advisor Robert O'brien:
    “When they (the Chinese) get Huawei into Canada or into other Western countries, they’re going to know every health record, every banking record, every social media post, they’re going to know everything about every single Canadian,”  And that using Huawei technology:  "would put in jeopardy intelligence sharing with the United States"

    That puts Canada in a hard place:   Do they delay their 5G rollout and accept second rate technology simply to keep the Trump administration happy even though their claims have been revealed to have no basis in reality?  Or, should they do what is right for the Canadian people?

    Here in the U.S. AT&T has had to deal with same level of nonsense -- which is delaying and degrading the U.S. roll out of 5G simply to support Trump's foolish and failing trade war.  Or, as Gernany has reported:  "All of the telecom operators [have] close trading ties with China, are customers of Huawei and have warned that banning the company would add years of delays and billions of dollars in costs to the launch of 5G networks.

    edited November 2019
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  • Reply 44 of 103
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,067member
    I still don’t even have true LTE a lot of places around my house and commuting area.  It flips from LTE (which is 4G) to 5Ge (LTE).  Sometimes it drops into “4G,” which of course is 3.5G.  

    Friday, we had a 5 hour service outage near my work.  It was confirmed by every employee who had ATT.   Their system told me there was no outage.   I communicated with them by Twitter direct message and they claimed the same thing.  

    At this point, I would say it would be a number of years before there is true ATT 5G anywhere outside of the major cities.  


    tmay
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  • Reply 45 of 103
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member
    Much of the debate over 5G is sourced from the Trump administration's fact free strong arming of U.S. allies to boycot the leading supplier of 5G technology simply because it is Chinese.   Their latest attempt is to both frighten and extort Canada by threatening to spurn them if they decide to roll out their 5G using Huawei technology.  

    According to U.S. national security advisor Robert O'brien:
    “When they (the Chinese) get Huawei into Canada or into other Western countries, they’re going to know every health record, every banking record, every social media post, they’re going to know everything about every single Canadian,”  And that using Huawei technology:  "would put in jeopardy intelligence sharing with the United States"

    That puts Canada in a hard place:   Do they delay their 5G rollout and accept second rate technology simply to keep the Trump administration happy even though their claims have been revealed to have no basis in reality?  Or, should they do what is right for the Canadian people?

    Here in the U.S. AT&T has had to deal with same level of nonsense -- which is delaying and degrading the U.S. roll out of 5G simply to support Trump's foolish and failing trade war.  Or, as Gernany has reported:  "All of the telecom operators [have] close trading ties with China, are customers of Huawei and have warned that banning the company would add years of delays and billions of dollars in costs to the launch of 5G networks.

    LOL!!!

    There you go again with the unsupported bullshit.

    For the record, there is no "second rate technology" when using alternates to Huawei, which includes Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung. Post a link that states otherwise, and I'll be happy to reconsider, but of course, you will only find Huawei stating that, not any Western sources.

    As for Germany;

    https://www.dw.com/en/german-parliament-to-decide-on-huawei-5g-involvement-merkels-cdu-party-agrees/a-51379848

    "The move is in direct defiance of longtime Chancellor Angela Merkel, who advocated for an open market bid for the massive infrastructure project that included the controversial Chinese firm.

    Huawei  has already been blacklisted by the United States and other democracies for its suspected ties to the Chinese government.

    But high-ranking members within her own party, including former minister Norbert Röttgen and the party's general secretary, Paul Ziemiak, categorically opposed the involvement of Huawei or any other companies tied to foreign-state interests.

    "No Chinese company is an independent company," Röttgen said, adding that Huawei's involvement is principally "an imminent question of national security."


    Merkel was pushing for allowing Huawei into Germany's telecom system, even against the advice of her own party and Security Officials, due to the backlash that she expected from China if Huawei was banned. Now her own party has rebelled and the German Parliament will vote on that. 

    As for Canada, there have already been a couple of Canadian citizens who were arrested for spying, "quite conveniently" a couple of days after Meng Wanzhou was placed under House Arrest in Vancouver while she awaits an extradition trial that might see her sent to the U.S. for her part in selling U.S. telecom technology to Iran.

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/asia/china-spavor-kovrig-canada-arrest-intl/index.html

    "Hong Kong (CNN)Chinese authorities have formally arrested two Canadians who have been held in detention for five months on suspicion of espionage, in a move likely to increase tension between Ottawa and Beijing.
    Former diplomat Michael Kovrig and businessman Michael Spavor were detained on December 10, accused of gathering and stealing "sensitive information and other intelligence" since 2017.
    Their detainment came shortly after the arrest of a Chinese executive in Vancouver, a move which infuriated Beijing and sparked a diplomatic crisis."



    Case in point, look at how China has responded to the Protests in Hong Kong over the extradition legislation. Now China is warning Western Nations to shut the fuck up about Hong Kong.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-canada-china/china-envoy-warns-of-very-bad-damage-if-canada-follows-u-s-lead-on-hong-kong-idUSKBN1XW241

    "Canada, locked in a trade and diplomatic dispute with China, has repeatedly expressed concern about the safety of its 300,000 citizens in Hong Kong, hit by five months of mass demonstrations for more democracy and autonomy. 

    The U.S. House of Representatives on Wednesday passed two bills to back the protesters and send a warning to China about human rights. 

    “If somebody here really tries to ... have this kind of law like that in the United States, it’s very dangerous,” said Chinese envoy Cong Peiwu, speaking in English. 

    “If anything happens like this it will certainly have a very bad damage on our bilateral relationship and that is not in the interests of Canada,” he told a news conference in the embassy. He formally presented his credentials on Nov 1."


    You have to be the dimmest bulb in these posts if you can't understand what the threat that China poses to the West.

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  • Reply 46 of 103
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,327member
    tmay said:
    Much of the debate over 5G is sourced from the Trump administration's fact free strong arming of U.S. allies to boycot the leading supplier of 5G technology simply because it is Chinese.   Their latest attempt is to both frighten and extort Canada by threatening to spurn them if they decide to roll out their 5G using Huawei technology.  

    According to U.S. national security advisor Robert O'brien:
    “When they (the Chinese) get Huawei into Canada or into other Western countries, they’re going to know every health record, every banking record, every social media post, they’re going to know everything about every single Canadian,”  And that using Huawei technology:  "would put in jeopardy intelligence sharing with the United States"

    That puts Canada in a hard place:   Do they delay their 5G rollout and accept second rate technology simply to keep the Trump administration happy even though their claims have been revealed to have no basis in reality?  Or, should they do what is right for the Canadian people?

    Here in the U.S. AT&T has had to deal with same level of nonsense -- which is delaying and degrading the U.S. roll out of 5G simply to support Trump's foolish and failing trade war.  Or, as Gernany has reported:  "All of the telecom operators [have] close trading ties with China, are customers of Huawei and have warned that banning the company would add years of delays and billions of dollars in costs to the launch of 5G networks.

    ...

    There you go again with the unsupported bullshit.

    For the record, there is no "second rate technology" when using alternates to Huawei, which includes Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung. Post a link that states otherwise, and I'll be happy to reconsider, but of course, you will only find Huawei stating that, not any Western sources.

    ...

    You have to be the dimmest bulb in these posts if you can't understand what the threat that China poses to the West.

    Time to reconsider:



    A perfect example of someone who knows what he is talking and and someone else who is completely lost.

    Your last bolded comment has nothing to do with Huawei or 5G (or 'bulbs'!) but does play into to what U.S politicians clearly fear: China overtaking the U.S as a world tech reference. 

    It's protectionism, pure and simple.


    edited November 2019
    muthuk_vanalingamGeorgeBMac
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  • Reply 47 of 103
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    Much of the debate over 5G is sourced from the Trump administration's fact free strong arming of U.S. allies to boycot the leading supplier of 5G technology simply because it is Chinese.   Their latest attempt is to both frighten and extort Canada by threatening to spurn them if they decide to roll out their 5G using Huawei technology.  

    According to U.S. national security advisor Robert O'brien:
    “When they (the Chinese) get Huawei into Canada or into other Western countries, they’re going to know every health record, every banking record, every social media post, they’re going to know everything about every single Canadian,”  And that using Huawei technology:  "would put in jeopardy intelligence sharing with the United States"

    That puts Canada in a hard place:   Do they delay their 5G rollout and accept second rate technology simply to keep the Trump administration happy even though their claims have been revealed to have no basis in reality?  Or, should they do what is right for the Canadian people?

    Here in the U.S. AT&T has had to deal with same level of nonsense -- which is delaying and degrading the U.S. roll out of 5G simply to support Trump's foolish and failing trade war.  Or, as Gernany has reported:  "All of the telecom operators [have] close trading ties with China, are customers of Huawei and have warned that banning the company would add years of delays and billions of dollars in costs to the launch of 5G networks.

    ...

    There you go again with the unsupported bullshit.

    For the record, there is no "second rate technology" when using alternates to Huawei, which includes Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung. Post a link that states otherwise, and I'll be happy to reconsider, but of course, you will only find Huawei stating that, not any Western sources.

    ...

    You have to be the dimmest bulb in these posts if you can't understand what the threat that China poses to the West.

    Time to reconsider:



    A perfect example of someone who knows what he is talking and and someone else who is completely lost.

    Your last bolded comment has nothing to do with Huawei or 5G but does play into to what U.S politicians clearly fear: China overtaking the U.S as a world tech reference. 

    It's protectionism, pure and simple.


    It isn't protectionism simply because the U.S. isn't a player in 5G, mostly due to mergers and acquisitions of U.S. companies by European Companies, as explained in the link.

    It is strickly National Security, both from protecting existing companies in the West from Huawei's predatory pricing and Government support, as well as security of the core 5G networks.

    Here's a much more comprehensive article that lays out what is at stake for the West, and given that it is from April of this year, doesn't take into account all of the backlash that China is getting from Hong Kong, Xinjiang prisons, and recent spying charges in Australia;

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/03/the-improbable-rise-of-huawei-5g-global-network-china/

    Due to the outright banning of Huawei in many Western Countries, Ericsson and Nokia, plus Samsung, are all increasing R&D investments in 5G. It is expected that Huawei's so called technical lead, won't last more than a year or so, but even if it lasts longer, these Western Companies will be able to provide leading edge 5G. 

    The truth is that China's recent authoritarian behavior is a better predictor of future Huawei banning than anything else.  


    edited November 2019
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  • Reply 48 of 103
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,327member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    Much of the debate over 5G is sourced from the Trump administration's fact free strong arming of U.S. allies to boycot the leading supplier of 5G technology simply because it is Chinese.   Their latest attempt is to both frighten and extort Canada by threatening to spurn them if they decide to roll out their 5G using Huawei technology.  

    According to U.S. national security advisor Robert O'brien:
    “When they (the Chinese) get Huawei into Canada or into other Western countries, they’re going to know every health record, every banking record, every social media post, they’re going to know everything about every single Canadian,”  And that using Huawei technology:  "would put in jeopardy intelligence sharing with the United States"

    That puts Canada in a hard place:   Do they delay their 5G rollout and accept second rate technology simply to keep the Trump administration happy even though their claims have been revealed to have no basis in reality?  Or, should they do what is right for the Canadian people?

    Here in the U.S. AT&T has had to deal with same level of nonsense -- which is delaying and degrading the U.S. roll out of 5G simply to support Trump's foolish and failing trade war.  Or, as Gernany has reported:  "All of the telecom operators [have] close trading ties with China, are customers of Huawei and have warned that banning the company would add years of delays and billions of dollars in costs to the launch of 5G networks.

    ...

    There you go again with the unsupported bullshit.

    For the record, there is no "second rate technology" when using alternates to Huawei, which includes Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung. Post a link that states otherwise, and I'll be happy to reconsider, but of course, you will only find Huawei stating that, not any Western sources.

    ...

    You have to be the dimmest bulb in these posts if you can't understand what the threat that China poses to the West.

    Time to reconsider:



    A perfect example of someone who knows what he is talking and and someone else who is completely lost.

    Your last bolded comment has nothing to do with Huawei or 5G but does play into to what U.S politicians clearly fear: China overtaking the U.S as a world tech reference. 

    It's protectionism, pure and simple.


    It isn't protectionism simply because the U.S. isn't a player in 5G, mostly due to mergers and acquisitions of U.S. companies by European Companies, as explained in the link.

    It is strickly National Security, both from protecting existing companies in the West from Huawei's predatory pricing and Government support, as well as security of the core 5G networks.

    Here's a much more comprehensive article that lays out what is at stake for the West, and given that it is from April of this year, doesn't take into account all of the backlash that China is getting from Hong Kong, Xin Jinping prisons, and recent spying charges in Australia;

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/03/the-improbable-rise-of-huawei-5g-global-network-china/

    Due to the outright banning of Huawei in many Western Countries, Ericsson and Nokia, plus Samsung, are all increasing R&D investments in 5G. It is expected that Huawei's so called technical lead, won't last more than a year or so, but even if it lasts longer, these Western Companies will be able to provide leading edge 5G. 

    The truth is that China's recent authoritarian behavior is a better predictor of future Huawei banning than anything else.  


    So, I take that as being your way of reconsidering.

    Huawei's technical lead (as stated by the person who knows what he is talking about in the video) is not 'so called'. It is very real. Similar comments have been made by other ICT specialists.

    The Commerce Secretary's very poor attempts to swing away from the protectionism angle are just that - very poor.

    The President isn't much better and seems just as lost as his Commerce Secretary:

    https://www.voanews.com/usa/trump-says-he-asked-apples-cook-look-helping-build-5g-us

    The U.S president is using protectionism in the widest possible scope. To protect an entire industry from one company. To the point of extending action beyond the sovereign limits of the U.S and threatening allies. Perhaps you don't remember his "not on my watch" comments. He is flaying wildly, searching for a U.S company to step up to the mark but he is so lost that he thinks Apple can fill that role. Didn't anybody point him towards Qualcomm? In the meantime, there are rumours of the U.S considering investing in Nokia and Ericsson.

    5G is being considered a new industrial revolution. The U.S not being part of it is something he can't cope with.



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  • Reply 49 of 103
    GeorgeBMacgeorgebmac Posts: 11,421member
    sdw2001 said:
    I still don’t even have true LTE a lot of places around my house and commuting area.  It flips from LTE (which is 4G) to 5Ge (LTE).  Sometimes it drops into “4G,” which of course is 3.5G.  

    Friday, we had a 5 hour service outage near my work.  It was confirmed by every employee who had ATT.   Their system told me there was no outage.   I communicated with them by Twitter direct message and they claimed the same thing.  

    At this point, I would say it would be a number of years before there is true ATT 5G anywhere outside of the major cities.  


    Very likely.   That's how our for-profit communications infrastructure is designed.-- No Profit, No Service.
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  • Reply 50 of 103
    GeorgeBMacgeorgebmac Posts: 11,421member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    Much of the debate over 5G is sourced from the Trump administration's fact free strong arming of U.S. allies to boycot the leading supplier of 5G technology simply because it is Chinese.   Their latest attempt is to both frighten and extort Canada by threatening to spurn them if they decide to roll out their 5G using Huawei technology.  

    According to U.S. national security advisor Robert O'brien:
    “When they (the Chinese) get Huawei into Canada or into other Western countries, they’re going to know every health record, every banking record, every social media post, they’re going to know everything about every single Canadian,”  And that using Huawei technology:  "would put in jeopardy intelligence sharing with the United States"

    That puts Canada in a hard place:   Do they delay their 5G rollout and accept second rate technology simply to keep the Trump administration happy even though their claims have been revealed to have no basis in reality?  Or, should they do what is right for the Canadian people?

    Here in the U.S. AT&T has had to deal with same level of nonsense -- which is delaying and degrading the U.S. roll out of 5G simply to support Trump's foolish and failing trade war.  Or, as Gernany has reported:  "All of the telecom operators [have] close trading ties with China, are customers of Huawei and have warned that banning the company would add years of delays and billions of dollars in costs to the launch of 5G networks.

    ...

    There you go again with the unsupported bullshit.

    For the record, there is no "second rate technology" when using alternates to Huawei, which includes Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung. Post a link that states otherwise, and I'll be happy to reconsider, but of course, you will only find Huawei stating that, not any Western sources.

    ...

    You have to be the dimmest bulb in these posts if you can't understand what the threat that China poses to the West.

    Time to reconsider:



    A perfect example of someone who knows what he is talking and and someone else who is completely lost.

    Your last bolded comment has nothing to do with Huawei or 5G but does play into to what U.S politicians clearly fear: China overtaking the U.S as a world tech reference. 

    It's protectionism, pure and simple.


    It isn't protectionism simply because the U.S. isn't a player in 5G, mostly due to mergers and acquisitions of U.S. companies by European Companies, as explained in the link.

    It is strickly National Security, both from protecting existing companies in the West from Huawei's predatory pricing and Government support, as well as security of the core 5G networks.

    Here's a much more comprehensive article that lays out what is at stake for the West, and given that it is from April of this year, doesn't take into account all of the backlash that China is getting from Hong Kong, Xin Jinping prisons, and recent spying charges in Australia;

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/03/the-improbable-rise-of-huawei-5g-global-network-china/

    Due to the outright banning of Huawei in many Western Countries, Ericsson and Nokia, plus Samsung, are all increasing R&D investments in 5G. It is expected that Huawei's so called technical lead, won't last more than a year or so, but even if it lasts longer, these Western Companies will be able to provide leading edge 5G. 

    The truth is that China's recent authoritarian behavior is a better predictor of future Huawei banning than anything else.  


    So, I take that as being your way of reconsidering.

    Huawei's technical lead (as stated by the person who knows what he is talking about in the video) is not 'so called'. It is very real. Similar comments have been made by other ICT specialists.

    The Commerce Secretary's very poor attempts to swing away from the protectionism angle are just that - very poor.

    The President isn't much better and seems just as lost as his Commerce Secretary:

    https://www.voanews.com/usa/trump-says-he-asked-apples-cook-look-helping-build-5g-us

    The U.S president is using protectionism in the widest possible scope. To protect an entire industry from one company. To the point of extending action beyond the sovereign limits of the U.S and threatening allies. Perhaps you don't remember his "not on my watch" comments. He is flaying wildly, searching for a U.S company to step up to the mark but he is so lost that he thinks Apple can fill that role. Didn't anybody point him towards Qualcomm? In the meantime, there are rumours of the U.S considering investing in Nokia and Ericsson.

    5G is being considered a new industrial revolution. The U.S not being part of it is something he can't cope with.



    The so called Security Threat from Huawei will be resolved as soon as Trump gives up on his failing Trade War.   That is coming:   It never had anything to do with jobs or IP -- it's always been about enabling increased access for Wall Street to Chinese markets -- and China is adjusting their rules to allow that, or at least some of that.   And besides, Trump knows he needs to end his foolishness in order to be reelected. 

    Then, maybe we can start moving forward again instead of treading water.

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  • Reply 51 of 103
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    Much of the debate over 5G is sourced from the Trump administration's fact free strong arming of U.S. allies to boycot the leading supplier of 5G technology simply because it is Chinese.   Their latest attempt is to both frighten and extort Canada by threatening to spurn them if they decide to roll out their 5G using Huawei technology.  

    According to U.S. national security advisor Robert O'brien:
    “When they (the Chinese) get Huawei into Canada or into other Western countries, they’re going to know every health record, every banking record, every social media post, they’re going to know everything about every single Canadian,”  And that using Huawei technology:  "would put in jeopardy intelligence sharing with the United States"

    That puts Canada in a hard place:   Do they delay their 5G rollout and accept second rate technology simply to keep the Trump administration happy even though their claims have been revealed to have no basis in reality?  Or, should they do what is right for the Canadian people?

    Here in the U.S. AT&T has had to deal with same level of nonsense -- which is delaying and degrading the U.S. roll out of 5G simply to support Trump's foolish and failing trade war.  Or, as Gernany has reported:  "All of the telecom operators [have] close trading ties with China, are customers of Huawei and have warned that banning the company would add years of delays and billions of dollars in costs to the launch of 5G networks.

    ...

    There you go again with the unsupported bullshit.

    For the record, there is no "second rate technology" when using alternates to Huawei, which includes Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung. Post a link that states otherwise, and I'll be happy to reconsider, but of course, you will only find Huawei stating that, not any Western sources.

    ...

    You have to be the dimmest bulb in these posts if you can't understand what the threat that China poses to the West.

    Time to reconsider:



    A perfect example of someone who knows what he is talking and and someone else who is completely lost.

    Your last bolded comment has nothing to do with Huawei or 5G but does play into to what U.S politicians clearly fear: China overtaking the U.S as a world tech reference. 

    It's protectionism, pure and simple.


    It isn't protectionism simply because the U.S. isn't a player in 5G, mostly due to mergers and acquisitions of U.S. companies by European Companies, as explained in the link.

    It is strickly National Security, both from protecting existing companies in the West from Huawei's predatory pricing and Government support, as well as security of the core 5G networks.

    Here's a much more comprehensive article that lays out what is at stake for the West, and given that it is from April of this year, doesn't take into account all of the backlash that China is getting from Hong Kong, Xin Jinping prisons, and recent spying charges in Australia;

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/03/the-improbable-rise-of-huawei-5g-global-network-china/

    Due to the outright banning of Huawei in many Western Countries, Ericsson and Nokia, plus Samsung, are all increasing R&D investments in 5G. It is expected that Huawei's so called technical lead, won't last more than a year or so, but even if it lasts longer, these Western Companies will be able to provide leading edge 5G. 

    The truth is that China's recent authoritarian behavior is a better predictor of future Huawei banning than anything else.  


    Your link wasn't very convincing, but at least you posted a link, which George mostly does not.
     
    So, I take that as being your way of reconsidering.

    Huawei's technical lead (as stated by the person who knows what he is talking about in the video) is not 'so called'. It is very real. Similar comments have been made by other ICT specialists.

    The Commerce Secretary's very poor attempts to swing away from the protectionism angle are just that - very poor.

    The President isn't much better and seems just as lost as his Commerce Secretary:

    https://www.voanews.com/usa/trump-says-he-asked-apples-cook-look-helping-build-5g-us

    The U.S president is using protectionism in the widest possible scope. To protect an entire industry from one company. To the point of extending action beyond the sovereign limits of the U.S and threatening allies. Perhaps you don't remember his "not on my watch" comments. He is flaying wildly, searching for a U.S company to step up to the mark but he is so lost that he thinks Apple can fill that role. Didn't anybody point him towards Qualcomm? In the meantime, there are rumours of the U.S considering investing in Nokia and Ericsson.

    5G is being considered a new industrial revolution. The U.S not being part of it is something he can't cope with.



    You don't seem to comprehend that the U.S. has no telecom industry, just carriers, and so by definition it isn't protectionism, it's National Security.

    As for the U.S. encouraging countries to ban Huawei for National Security reasons, that seems even better advice today than it was even this summer. China isn't even pretending that it isn't an authoritarian state, and it is in the West's best interests to support telecom companies that are not in fact resident in authoritarian countries, as Huawei is.

    In the meantime, as I stated and linked, Ericsson, Nokia and Samsung are making huge investments in 5G, now that major Western countries have or will ban Huawei for their 5G core systems. All of the Five Eyes countries currently have Huawei 5G bans in place, but only the U.S. and Australia have permanent bans. 



    edited November 2019
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  • Reply 52 of 103
    MplsPmplsp Posts: 4,177member
    MplsP said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    I'll trade AT&T for Huawei any day of the week:
    Since 2015, China has reportedly outspent the US by $24 billion in 5G infrastructure. In the same period, according to media reports, the US built fewer than 30,000 new cell sites, while the corresponding number in China was more than 10 times higher.

    But, that is probably the biggest reason Apple needs to roll out a 5G phone as quickly as possible -- simply to stay competitive.   We can't look at Keokuk, Iowa or Hillbilly, WV and use that as the basis for whether we need 5G phones of not.

    I always have to laugh at you throwing out such numbers from China, and especially, as if China is all that far along in 5G operation;

    https://www.worldtimezone.com/5g.html

    That link suggests that China wouldn't have any Commerciall 5G until October of this year, which was behind the U.S., among others. Apple shipping iPhones in volume next September with mmwave 5G capabilities will still be far ahead of most of the 5G infrastructure yet to occur by any country or telecom.

    And here's another couple of links to Chinese spying and influence;

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/defecting-chinese-spy-offers-information-trove-to-australian-government-20191122-p53d1l.html

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/peter-hartcher-on-china-s-infiltration-of-australia-20191118-p53bly.html

    The security problem for Huawei in the West is that China and the CCP controls Huawei, so why would any country allow Huawei into critical telecom infrastructure?

    An example from the Philippines;

    https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3038655/china-can-turn-philippine-national-power-grid-officials-say

    Oh, and Merkel in Germany is under fire from her own party to reverse her position on allowing Huawei in Germany's telecom infrastructure:

    https://www.dw.com/en/german-parliament-to-decide-on-huawei-5g-involvement-merkels-cdu-party-agrees/a-51379848

    Of course, China is threatening Germany with trade reprisals.
    No, sorry, but 5G is already up and running in China and expanding rapidly.
    And, no, despite a plethora of right wing conspiracy theories, Huawei is not controlled by the Chinese government or the CCP.
    And, while there are always some paranoid right wing conspiracy theorists having hissy fits, even the Trump administration has backed off their claims that there is any evidence Huawei has ever spied on anybody.  That nonsense is just propaganda to support Trump's failing Trade War.
    It's quite humorous that you never post any links to support your POV or arguments wrt China, yet are happy to post, twice, "right wing conspiracy theory" as if I didn't actually post factual links.



    Posting links?   You and Trump can make it up faster than I can disprove it.  It would be an exercise in futility.  I'll just stick to reality.
    One person posts supporting evidence. The other just makes claims without any support. Why should anyone believe you?
    We have seen from far left & far right politics how listing "facts" is a great way to tell a lie because, when one starts with the conclusion and then backs into whatever facts support that conclusion the result is still bull no matter how many "Facts" they roll out.

    As I said, I'll stick to reality.  You can believe it or not.  That's up to you.
    So your argument is that giving a conclusion based on facts is the same as making your conclusion first and cherry picking facts to support it, but since you don’t use any facts at all, you must be right! 

    I have to admit, it’s a great way to debate. Not being burdened by annoying facts opens up so many possibilities!




    edited November 2019
    tmay
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 53 of 103
    MplsP said:
    MplsP said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    I'll trade AT&T for Huawei any day of the week:
    Since 2015, China has reportedly outspent the US by $24 billion in 5G infrastructure. In the same period, according to media reports, the US built fewer than 30,000 new cell sites, while the corresponding number in China was more than 10 times higher.

    But, that is probably the biggest reason Apple needs to roll out a 5G phone as quickly as possible -- simply to stay competitive.   We can't look at Keokuk, Iowa or Hillbilly, WV and use that as the basis for whether we need 5G phones of not.

    I always have to laugh at you throwing out such numbers from China, and especially, as if China is all that far along in 5G operation;

    https://www.worldtimezone.com/5g.html

    That link suggests that China wouldn't have any Commerciall 5G until October of this year, which was behind the U.S., among others. Apple shipping iPhones in volume next September with mmwave 5G capabilities will still be far ahead of most of the 5G infrastructure yet to occur by any country or telecom.

    And here's another couple of links to Chinese spying and influence;

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/defecting-chinese-spy-offers-information-trove-to-australian-government-20191122-p53d1l.html

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/peter-hartcher-on-china-s-infiltration-of-australia-20191118-p53bly.html

    The security problem for Huawei in the West is that China and the CCP controls Huawei, so why would any country allow Huawei into critical telecom infrastructure?

    An example from the Philippines;

    https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3038655/china-can-turn-philippine-national-power-grid-officials-say

    Oh, and Merkel in Germany is under fire from her own party to reverse her position on allowing Huawei in Germany's telecom infrastructure:

    https://www.dw.com/en/german-parliament-to-decide-on-huawei-5g-involvement-merkels-cdu-party-agrees/a-51379848

    Of course, China is threatening Germany with trade reprisals.
    No, sorry, but 5G is already up and running in China and expanding rapidly.
    And, no, despite a plethora of right wing conspiracy theories, Huawei is not controlled by the Chinese government or the CCP.
    And, while there are always some paranoid right wing conspiracy theorists having hissy fits, even the Trump administration has backed off their claims that there is any evidence Huawei has ever spied on anybody.  That nonsense is just propaganda to support Trump's failing Trade War.
    It's quite humorous that you never post any links to support your POV or arguments wrt China, yet are happy to post, twice, "right wing conspiracy theory" as if I didn't actually post factual links.



    Posting links?   You and Trump can make it up faster than I can disprove it.  It would be an exercise in futility.  I'll just stick to reality.
    One person posts supporting evidence. The other just makes claims without any support. Why should anyone believe you?
    We have seen from far left & far right politics how listing "facts" is a great way to tell a lie because, when one starts with the conclusion and then backs into whatever facts support that conclusion the result is still bull no matter how many "Facts" they roll out.

    As I said, I'll stick to reality.  You can believe it or not.  That's up to you.
    So your argument is that giving a conclusion based on facts is the same as making your conclusion first and cherry picking facts to support it, but since you don’t use any facts at all, you must be right! 

    I have to admit, it’s a great way to debate. Not being burdened by annoying facts opens up so many possibilities!




    Did you read what I said?    
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 54 of 103
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    Much of the debate over 5G is sourced from the Trump administration's fact free strong arming of U.S. allies to boycot the leading supplier of 5G technology simply because it is Chinese.   Their latest attempt is to both frighten and extort Canada by threatening to spurn them if they decide to roll out their 5G using Huawei technology.  

    According to U.S. national security advisor Robert O'brien:
    “When they (the Chinese) get Huawei into Canada or into other Western countries, they’re going to know every health record, every banking record, every social media post, they’re going to know everything about every single Canadian,”  And that using Huawei technology:  "would put in jeopardy intelligence sharing with the United States"

    That puts Canada in a hard place:   Do they delay their 5G rollout and accept second rate technology simply to keep the Trump administration happy even though their claims have been revealed to have no basis in reality?  Or, should they do what is right for the Canadian people?

    Here in the U.S. AT&T has had to deal with same level of nonsense -- which is delaying and degrading the U.S. roll out of 5G simply to support Trump's foolish and failing trade war.  Or, as Gernany has reported:  "All of the telecom operators [have] close trading ties with China, are customers of Huawei and have warned that banning the company would add years of delays and billions of dollars in costs to the launch of 5G networks.

    ...

    There you go again with the unsupported bullshit.

    For the record, there is no "second rate technology" when using alternates to Huawei, which includes Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung. Post a link that states otherwise, and I'll be happy to reconsider, but of course, you will only find Huawei stating that, not any Western sources.

    ...

    You have to be the dimmest bulb in these posts if you can't understand what the threat that China poses to the West.

    Time to reconsider:



    A perfect example of someone who knows what he is talking and and someone else who is completely lost.

    Your last bolded comment has nothing to do with Huawei or 5G but does play into to what U.S politicians clearly fear: China overtaking the U.S as a world tech reference. 

    It's protectionism, pure and simple.


    It isn't protectionism simply because the U.S. isn't a player in 5G, mostly due to mergers and acquisitions of U.S. companies by European Companies, as explained in the link.

    It is strickly National Security, both from protecting existing companies in the West from Huawei's predatory pricing and Government support, as well as security of the core 5G networks.

    Here's a much more comprehensive article that lays out what is at stake for the West, and given that it is from April of this year, doesn't take into account all of the backlash that China is getting from Hong Kong, Xin Jinping prisons, and recent spying charges in Australia;

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/03/the-improbable-rise-of-huawei-5g-global-network-china/

    Due to the outright banning of Huawei in many Western Countries, Ericsson and Nokia, plus Samsung, are all increasing R&D investments in 5G. It is expected that Huawei's so called technical lead, won't last more than a year or so, but even if it lasts longer, these Western Companies will be able to provide leading edge 5G. 

    The truth is that China's recent authoritarian behavior is a better predictor of future Huawei banning than anything else.  


    Your link wasn't very convincing, but at least you posted a link, which George mostly does not.
     
    So, I take that as being your way of reconsidering.

    Huawei's technical lead (as stated by the person who knows what he is talking about in the video) is not 'so called'. It is very real. Similar comments have been made by other ICT specialists.

    The Commerce Secretary's very poor attempts to swing away from the protectionism angle are just that - very poor.

    The President isn't much better and seems just as lost as his Commerce Secretary:

    https://www.voanews.com/usa/trump-says-he-asked-apples-cook-look-helping-build-5g-us

    The U.S president is using protectionism in the widest possible scope. To protect an entire industry from one company. To the point of extending action beyond the sovereign limits of the U.S and threatening allies. Perhaps you don't remember his "not on my watch" comments. He is flaying wildly, searching for a U.S company to step up to the mark but he is so lost that he thinks Apple can fill that role. Didn't anybody point him towards Qualcomm? In the meantime, there are rumours of the U.S considering investing in Nokia and Ericsson.

    5G is being considered a new industrial revolution. The U.S not being part of it is something he can't cope with.



    You don't seem to comprehend that the U.S. has no telecom industry, just carriers, and so by definition it isn't protectionism, it's National Security.

    As for the U.S. encouraging countries to ban Huawei for National Security reasons, that seems even better advice today than it was even this summer. China isn't even pretending that it isn't an authoritarian state, and it is in the West's best interests to support telecom companies that are not in fact resident in authoritarian countries, as Huawei is.

    In the meantime, as I stated and linked, Ericsson, Nokia and Samsung are making huge investments in 5G, now that major Western countries have or will ban Huawei for their 5G core systems. All of the Five Eyes countries currently have Huawei 5G bans in place, but only the U.S. and Australia have permanent bans. 



    Huawei has nothing to do with security.   It's just a pawn in Trump's trade war.   Similarly the trade war has nothing to do with trade -- it's all about opening up China to the Wall Street Banksters.   It's just how the Conman operates.
    muthuk_vanalingam
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 55 of 103
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    Much of the debate over 5G is sourced from the Trump administration's fact free strong arming of U.S. allies to boycot the leading supplier of 5G technology simply because it is Chinese.   Their latest attempt is to both frighten and extort Canada by threatening to spurn them if they decide to roll out their 5G using Huawei technology.  

    According to U.S. national security advisor Robert O'brien:
    “When they (the Chinese) get Huawei into Canada or into other Western countries, they’re going to know every health record, every banking record, every social media post, they’re going to know everything about every single Canadian,”  And that using Huawei technology:  "would put in jeopardy intelligence sharing with the United States"

    That puts Canada in a hard place:   Do they delay their 5G rollout and accept second rate technology simply to keep the Trump administration happy even though their claims have been revealed to have no basis in reality?  Or, should they do what is right for the Canadian people?

    Here in the U.S. AT&T has had to deal with same level of nonsense -- which is delaying and degrading the U.S. roll out of 5G simply to support Trump's foolish and failing trade war.  Or, as Gernany has reported:  "All of the telecom operators [have] close trading ties with China, are customers of Huawei and have warned that banning the company would add years of delays and billions of dollars in costs to the launch of 5G networks.

    ...

    There you go again with the unsupported bullshit.

    For the record, there is no "second rate technology" when using alternates to Huawei, which includes Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung. Post a link that states otherwise, and I'll be happy to reconsider, but of course, you will only find Huawei stating that, not any Western sources.

    ...

    You have to be the dimmest bulb in these posts if you can't understand what the threat that China poses to the West.

    Time to reconsider:



    A perfect example of someone who knows what he is talking and and someone else who is completely lost.

    Your last bolded comment has nothing to do with Huawei or 5G but does play into to what U.S politicians clearly fear: China overtaking the U.S as a world tech reference. 

    It's protectionism, pure and simple.


    It isn't protectionism simply because the U.S. isn't a player in 5G, mostly due to mergers and acquisitions of U.S. companies by European Companies, as explained in the link.

    It is strickly National Security, both from protecting existing companies in the West from Huawei's predatory pricing and Government support, as well as security of the core 5G networks.

    Here's a much more comprehensive article that lays out what is at stake for the West, and given that it is from April of this year, doesn't take into account all of the backlash that China is getting from Hong Kong, Xin Jinping prisons, and recent spying charges in Australia;

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/03/the-improbable-rise-of-huawei-5g-global-network-china/

    Due to the outright banning of Huawei in many Western Countries, Ericsson and Nokia, plus Samsung, are all increasing R&D investments in 5G. It is expected that Huawei's so called technical lead, won't last more than a year or so, but even if it lasts longer, these Western Companies will be able to provide leading edge 5G. 

    The truth is that China's recent authoritarian behavior is a better predictor of future Huawei banning than anything else.  


    So, I take that as being your way of reconsidering.

    Huawei's technical lead (as stated by the person who knows what he is talking about in the video) is not 'so called'. It is very real. Similar comments have been made by other ICT specialists.

    The Commerce Secretary's very poor attempts to swing away from the protectionism angle are just that - very poor.

    The President isn't much better and seems just as lost as his Commerce Secretary:

    https://www.voanews.com/usa/trump-says-he-asked-apples-cook-look-helping-build-5g-us

    The U.S president is using protectionism in the widest possible scope. To protect an entire industry from one company. To the point of extending action beyond the sovereign limits of the U.S and threatening allies. Perhaps you don't remember his "not on my watch" comments. He is flaying wildly, searching for a U.S company to step up to the mark but he is so lost that he thinks Apple can fill that role. Didn't anybody point him towards Qualcomm? In the meantime, there are rumours of the U.S considering investing in Nokia and Ericsson.

    5G is being considered a new industrial revolution. The U.S not being part of it is something he can't cope with.



    Please tell me again. if you ever have.

    Which industry is Trump trying to protect, because what I see, is that Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung are the beneficiaries of his "protectionism, not any U.S. companies, and those all reside in countries with democracies.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 56 of 103
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    Much of the debate over 5G is sourced from the Trump administration's fact free strong arming of U.S. allies to boycot the leading supplier of 5G technology simply because it is Chinese.   Their latest attempt is to both frighten and extort Canada by threatening to spurn them if they decide to roll out their 5G using Huawei technology.  

    According to U.S. national security advisor Robert O'brien:
    “When they (the Chinese) get Huawei into Canada or into other Western countries, they’re going to know every health record, every banking record, every social media post, they’re going to know everything about every single Canadian,”  And that using Huawei technology:  "would put in jeopardy intelligence sharing with the United States"

    That puts Canada in a hard place:   Do they delay their 5G rollout and accept second rate technology simply to keep the Trump administration happy even though their claims have been revealed to have no basis in reality?  Or, should they do what is right for the Canadian people?

    Here in the U.S. AT&T has had to deal with same level of nonsense -- which is delaying and degrading the U.S. roll out of 5G simply to support Trump's foolish and failing trade war.  Or, as Gernany has reported:  "All of the telecom operators [have] close trading ties with China, are customers of Huawei and have warned that banning the company would add years of delays and billions of dollars in costs to the launch of 5G networks.

    ...

    There you go again with the unsupported bullshit.

    For the record, there is no "second rate technology" when using alternates to Huawei, which includes Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung. Post a link that states otherwise, and I'll be happy to reconsider, but of course, you will only find Huawei stating that, not any Western sources.

    ...

    You have to be the dimmest bulb in these posts if you can't understand what the threat that China poses to the West.

    Time to reconsider:



    A perfect example of someone who knows what he is talking and and someone else who is completely lost.

    Your last bolded comment has nothing to do with Huawei or 5G but does play into to what U.S politicians clearly fear: China overtaking the U.S as a world tech reference. 

    It's protectionism, pure and simple.


    It isn't protectionism simply because the U.S. isn't a player in 5G, mostly due to mergers and acquisitions of U.S. companies by European Companies, as explained in the link.

    It is strickly National Security, both from protecting existing companies in the West from Huawei's predatory pricing and Government support, as well as security of the core 5G networks.

    Here's a much more comprehensive article that lays out what is at stake for the West, and given that it is from April of this year, doesn't take into account all of the backlash that China is getting from Hong Kong, Xin Jinping prisons, and recent spying charges in Australia;

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/03/the-improbable-rise-of-huawei-5g-global-network-china/

    Due to the outright banning of Huawei in many Western Countries, Ericsson and Nokia, plus Samsung, are all increasing R&D investments in 5G. It is expected that Huawei's so called technical lead, won't last more than a year or so, but even if it lasts longer, these Western Companies will be able to provide leading edge 5G. 

    The truth is that China's recent authoritarian behavior is a better predictor of future Huawei banning than anything else.  


    Your link wasn't very convincing, but at least you posted a link, which George mostly does not.
     
    So, I take that as being your way of reconsidering.

    Huawei's technical lead (as stated by the person who knows what he is talking about in the video) is not 'so called'. It is very real. Similar comments have been made by other ICT specialists.

    The Commerce Secretary's very poor attempts to swing away from the protectionism angle are just that - very poor.

    The President isn't much better and seems just as lost as his Commerce Secretary:

    https://www.voanews.com/usa/trump-says-he-asked-apples-cook-look-helping-build-5g-us

    The U.S president is using protectionism in the widest possible scope. To protect an entire industry from one company. To the point of extending action beyond the sovereign limits of the U.S and threatening allies. Perhaps you don't remember his "not on my watch" comments. He is flaying wildly, searching for a U.S company to step up to the mark but he is so lost that he thinks Apple can fill that role. Didn't anybody point him towards Qualcomm? In the meantime, there are rumours of the U.S considering investing in Nokia and Ericsson.

    5G is being considered a new industrial revolution. The U.S not being part of it is something he can't cope with.



    You don't seem to comprehend that the U.S. has no telecom industry, just carriers, and so by definition it isn't protectionism, it's National Security.

    As for the U.S. encouraging countries to ban Huawei for National Security reasons, that seems even better advice today than it was even this summer. China isn't even pretending that it isn't an authoritarian state, and it is in the West's best interests to support telecom companies that are not in fact resident in authoritarian countries, as Huawei is.

    In the meantime, as I stated and linked, Ericsson, Nokia and Samsung are making huge investments in 5G, now that major Western countries have or will ban Huawei for their 5G core systems. All of the Five Eyes countries currently have Huawei 5G bans in place, but only the U.S. and Australia have permanent bans. 



    Huawei has nothing to do with security.   It's just a pawn in Trump's trade war.   Similarly the trade war has nothing to do with trade -- it's all about opening up China to the Wall Street Banksters.   It's just how the Conman operates.
    That's an opinion, but considering that Australia is the country that first notified the world of the security ramifications, it doesn't hold up to fact. There will be no Huawei telecom in the U.S., trade agreement or no, and that is because it has already been decided and legislated by Congress.
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  • Reply 57 of 103
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,327member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    Much of the debate over 5G is sourced from the Trump administration's fact free strong arming of U.S. allies to boycot the leading supplier of 5G technology simply because it is Chinese.   Their latest attempt is to both frighten and extort Canada by threatening to spurn them if they decide to roll out their 5G using Huawei technology.  

    According to U.S. national security advisor Robert O'brien:
    “When they (the Chinese) get Huawei into Canada or into other Western countries, they’re going to know every health record, every banking record, every social media post, they’re going to know everything about every single Canadian,”  And that using Huawei technology:  "would put in jeopardy intelligence sharing with the United States"

    That puts Canada in a hard place:   Do they delay their 5G rollout and accept second rate technology simply to keep the Trump administration happy even though their claims have been revealed to have no basis in reality?  Or, should they do what is right for the Canadian people?

    Here in the U.S. AT&T has had to deal with same level of nonsense -- which is delaying and degrading the U.S. roll out of 5G simply to support Trump's foolish and failing trade war.  Or, as Gernany has reported:  "All of the telecom operators [have] close trading ties with China, are customers of Huawei and have warned that banning the company would add years of delays and billions of dollars in costs to the launch of 5G networks.

    ...

    There you go again with the unsupported bullshit.

    For the record, there is no "second rate technology" when using alternates to Huawei, which includes Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung. Post a link that states otherwise, and I'll be happy to reconsider, but of course, you will only find Huawei stating that, not any Western sources.

    ...

    You have to be the dimmest bulb in these posts if you can't understand what the threat that China poses to the West.

    Time to reconsider:



    A perfect example of someone who knows what he is talking and and someone else who is completely lost.

    Your last bolded comment has nothing to do with Huawei or 5G but does play into to what U.S politicians clearly fear: China overtaking the U.S as a world tech reference. 

    It's protectionism, pure and simple.


    It isn't protectionism simply because the U.S. isn't a player in 5G, mostly due to mergers and acquisitions of U.S. companies by European Companies, as explained in the link.

    It is strickly National Security, both from protecting existing companies in the West from Huawei's predatory pricing and Government support, as well as security of the core 5G networks.

    Here's a much more comprehensive article that lays out what is at stake for the West, and given that it is from April of this year, doesn't take into account all of the backlash that China is getting from Hong Kong, Xin Jinping prisons, and recent spying charges in Australia;

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/03/the-improbable-rise-of-huawei-5g-global-network-china/

    Due to the outright banning of Huawei in many Western Countries, Ericsson and Nokia, plus Samsung, are all increasing R&D investments in 5G. It is expected that Huawei's so called technical lead, won't last more than a year or so, but even if it lasts longer, these Western Companies will be able to provide leading edge 5G. 

    The truth is that China's recent authoritarian behavior is a better predictor of future Huawei banning than anything else.  


    So, I take that as being your way of reconsidering.

    Huawei's technical lead (as stated by the person who knows what he is talking about in the video) is not 'so called'. It is very real. Similar comments have been made by other ICT specialists.

    The Commerce Secretary's very poor attempts to swing away from the protectionism angle are just that - very poor.

    The President isn't much better and seems just as lost as his Commerce Secretary:

    https://www.voanews.com/usa/trump-says-he-asked-apples-cook-look-helping-build-5g-us

    The U.S president is using protectionism in the widest possible scope. To protect an entire industry from one company. To the point of extending action beyond the sovereign limits of the U.S and threatening allies. Perhaps you don't remember his "not on my watch" comments. He is flaying wildly, searching for a U.S company to step up to the mark but he is so lost that he thinks Apple can fill that role. Didn't anybody point him towards Qualcomm? In the meantime, there are rumours of the U.S considering investing in Nokia and Ericsson.

    5G is being considered a new industrial revolution. The U.S not being part of it is something he can't cope with.



    Please tell me again. if you ever have.

    Which industry is Trump trying to protect, because what I see, is that Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung are the beneficiaries of his "protectionism, not any U.S. companies, and those all reside in countries with democracies.
    You don't see any?

    Then you aren't looking!

    As I said above and will repeat, he is trying to protect an entire industry.

    Apple (by making sure carriers can't carry Huawei products).

    Cisco by giving them a guaranteed Huawei-competition-free market.

    Qualcomm idem above

    By keeping Huawei out of a major market (on unfounded grounds) he shelters autoctonous companies from fierce competition.

    Competition for which U.S companies have failed to step up to the plate (for whatever reason). It is protectionism on an unprecedented scale in that its ultimate goal is to put the competitor (Huawei) literally out of business.

    Ironically, the actions are backfiring massively as Huawei switches it purchasing to non-U.S suppliers, develops its own Google/Microsoft alternatives and sees staggering growth at home. There are even clouds over some of Apple's most fervent customers:

    https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/19/porsche-ceo-iphone-vs-android-popularity/
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 58 of 103
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    Much of the debate over 5G is sourced from the Trump administration's fact free strong arming of U.S. allies to boycot the leading supplier of 5G technology simply because it is Chinese.   Their latest attempt is to both frighten and extort Canada by threatening to spurn them if they decide to roll out their 5G using Huawei technology.  

    According to U.S. national security advisor Robert O'brien:
    “When they (the Chinese) get Huawei into Canada or into other Western countries, they’re going to know every health record, every banking record, every social media post, they’re going to know everything about every single Canadian,”  And that using Huawei technology:  "would put in jeopardy intelligence sharing with the United States"

    That puts Canada in a hard place:   Do they delay their 5G rollout and accept second rate technology simply to keep the Trump administration happy even though their claims have been revealed to have no basis in reality?  Or, should they do what is right for the Canadian people?

    Here in the U.S. AT&T has had to deal with same level of nonsense -- which is delaying and degrading the U.S. roll out of 5G simply to support Trump's foolish and failing trade war.  Or, as Gernany has reported:  "All of the telecom operators [have] close trading ties with China, are customers of Huawei and have warned that banning the company would add years of delays and billions of dollars in costs to the launch of 5G networks.

    ...

    There you go again with the unsupported bullshit.

    For the record, there is no "second rate technology" when using alternates to Huawei, which includes Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung. Post a link that states otherwise, and I'll be happy to reconsider, but of course, you will only find Huawei stating that, not any Western sources.

    ...

    You have to be the dimmest bulb in these posts if you can't understand what the threat that China poses to the West.

    Time to reconsider:



    A perfect example of someone who knows what he is talking and and someone else who is completely lost.

    Your last bolded comment has nothing to do with Huawei or 5G but does play into to what U.S politicians clearly fear: China overtaking the U.S as a world tech reference. 

    It's protectionism, pure and simple.


    It isn't protectionism simply because the U.S. isn't a player in 5G, mostly due to mergers and acquisitions of U.S. companies by European Companies, as explained in the link.

    It is strickly National Security, both from protecting existing companies in the West from Huawei's predatory pricing and Government support, as well as security of the core 5G networks.

    Here's a much more comprehensive article that lays out what is at stake for the West, and given that it is from April of this year, doesn't take into account all of the backlash that China is getting from Hong Kong, Xin Jinping prisons, and recent spying charges in Australia;

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/03/the-improbable-rise-of-huawei-5g-global-network-china/

    Due to the outright banning of Huawei in many Western Countries, Ericsson and Nokia, plus Samsung, are all increasing R&D investments in 5G. It is expected that Huawei's so called technical lead, won't last more than a year or so, but even if it lasts longer, these Western Companies will be able to provide leading edge 5G. 

    The truth is that China's recent authoritarian behavior is a better predictor of future Huawei banning than anything else.  


    So, I take that as being your way of reconsidering.

    Huawei's technical lead (as stated by the person who knows what he is talking about in the video) is not 'so called'. It is very real. Similar comments have been made by other ICT specialists.

    The Commerce Secretary's very poor attempts to swing away from the protectionism angle are just that - very poor.

    The President isn't much better and seems just as lost as his Commerce Secretary:

    https://www.voanews.com/usa/trump-says-he-asked-apples-cook-look-helping-build-5g-us

    The U.S president is using protectionism in the widest possible scope. To protect an entire industry from one company. To the point of extending action beyond the sovereign limits of the U.S and threatening allies. Perhaps you don't remember his "not on my watch" comments. He is flaying wildly, searching for a U.S company to step up to the mark but he is so lost that he thinks Apple can fill that role. Didn't anybody point him towards Qualcomm? In the meantime, there are rumours of the U.S considering investing in Nokia and Ericsson.

    5G is being considered a new industrial revolution. The U.S not being part of it is something he can't cope with.



    Please tell me again. if you ever have.

    Which industry is Trump trying to protect, because what I see, is that Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung are the beneficiaries of his "protectionism, not any U.S. companies, and those all reside in countries with democracies.
    You don't see any?

    Then you aren't looking!

    As I said above and will repeat, he is trying to protect an entire industry.

    Apple (by making sure carriers can't carry Huawei products).

    Cisco by giving them a guaranteed Huawei-competition-free market.

    Qualcomm idem above

    By keeping Huawei out of a major market (on unfounded grounds) he shelters autoctonous companies from fierce competition.

    Competition for which U.S companies have failed to step up to the plate (for whatever reason). It is protectionism on an unprecedented scale in that its ultimate goal is to put the competitor (Huawei) literally out of business.

    Ironically, the actions are backfiring massively as Huawei switches it purchasing to non-U.S suppliers, develops its own Google/Microsoft alternatives and sees staggering growth at home. There are even clouds over some of Apple's most fervent customers:

    https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/19/porsche-ceo-iphone-vs-android-popularity/
    Just keep on thinking like that...
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 59 of 103
    MplsPmplsp Posts: 4,177member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    Much of the debate over 5G is sourced from the Trump administration's fact free strong arming of U.S. allies to boycot the leading supplier of 5G technology simply because it is Chinese.   Their latest attempt is to both frighten and extort Canada by threatening to spurn them if they decide to roll out their 5G using Huawei technology.  

    According to U.S. national security advisor Robert O'brien:
    “When they (the Chinese) get Huawei into Canada or into other Western countries, they’re going to know every health record, every banking record, every social media post, they’re going to know everything about every single Canadian,”  And that using Huawei technology:  "would put in jeopardy intelligence sharing with the United States"

    That puts Canada in a hard place:   Do they delay their 5G rollout and accept second rate technology simply to keep the Trump administration happy even though their claims have been revealed to have no basis in reality?  Or, should they do what is right for the Canadian people?

    Here in the U.S. AT&T has had to deal with same level of nonsense -- which is delaying and degrading the U.S. roll out of 5G simply to support Trump's foolish and failing trade war.  Or, as Gernany has reported:  "All of the telecom operators [have] close trading ties with China, are customers of Huawei and have warned that banning the company would add years of delays and billions of dollars in costs to the launch of 5G networks.

    ...

    There you go again with the unsupported bullshit.

    For the record, there is no "second rate technology" when using alternates to Huawei, which includes Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung. Post a link that states otherwise, and I'll be happy to reconsider, but of course, you will only find Huawei stating that, not any Western sources.

    ...

    You have to be the dimmest bulb in these posts if you can't understand what the threat that China poses to the West.

    Time to reconsider:



    A perfect example of someone who knows what he is talking and and someone else who is completely lost.

    Your last bolded comment has nothing to do with Huawei or 5G but does play into to what U.S politicians clearly fear: China overtaking the U.S as a world tech reference. 

    It's protectionism, pure and simple.


    It isn't protectionism simply because the U.S. isn't a player in 5G, mostly due to mergers and acquisitions of U.S. companies by European Companies, as explained in the link.

    It is strickly National Security, both from protecting existing companies in the West from Huawei's predatory pricing and Government support, as well as security of the core 5G networks.

    Here's a much more comprehensive article that lays out what is at stake for the West, and given that it is from April of this year, doesn't take into account all of the backlash that China is getting from Hong Kong, Xin Jinping prisons, and recent spying charges in Australia;

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/03/the-improbable-rise-of-huawei-5g-global-network-china/

    Due to the outright banning of Huawei in many Western Countries, Ericsson and Nokia, plus Samsung, are all increasing R&D investments in 5G. It is expected that Huawei's so called technical lead, won't last more than a year or so, but even if it lasts longer, these Western Companies will be able to provide leading edge 5G. 

    The truth is that China's recent authoritarian behavior is a better predictor of future Huawei banning than anything else.  


    So, I take that as being your way of reconsidering.

    Huawei's technical lead (as stated by the person who knows what he is talking about in the video) is not 'so called'. It is very real. Similar comments have been made by other ICT specialists.

    The Commerce Secretary's very poor attempts to swing away from the protectionism angle are just that - very poor.

    The President isn't much better and seems just as lost as his Commerce Secretary:

    https://www.voanews.com/usa/trump-says-he-asked-apples-cook-look-helping-build-5g-us

    The U.S president is using protectionism in the widest possible scope. To protect an entire industry from one company. To the point of extending action beyond the sovereign limits of the U.S and threatening allies. Perhaps you don't remember his "not on my watch" comments. He is flaying wildly, searching for a U.S company to step up to the mark but he is so lost that he thinks Apple can fill that role. Didn't anybody point him towards Qualcomm? In the meantime, there are rumours of the U.S considering investing in Nokia and Ericsson.

    5G is being considered a new industrial revolution. The U.S not being part of it is something he can't cope with.



    Please tell me again. if you ever have.

    Which industry is Trump trying to protect, because what I see, is that Ericsson, Nokia, and Samsung are the beneficiaries of his "protectionism, not any U.S. companies, and those all reside in countries with democracies.
    You don't see any?

    Then you aren't looking!

    As I said above and will repeat, he is trying to protect an entire industry.

    Apple (by making sure carriers can't carry Huawei products).

    Cisco by giving them a guaranteed Huawei-competition-free market.

    Qualcomm idem above

    By keeping Huawei out of a major market (on unfounded grounds) he shelters autoctonous companies from fierce competition.

    Competition for which U.S companies have failed to step up to the plate (for whatever reason). It is protectionism on an unprecedented scale in that its ultimate goal is to put the competitor (Huawei) literally out of business.

    Ironically, the actions are backfiring massively as Huawei switches it purchasing to non-U.S suppliers, develops its own Google/Microsoft alternatives and sees staggering growth at home. There are even clouds over some of Apple's most fervent customers:

    https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/19/porsche-ceo-iphone-vs-android-popularity/
    Just keep on thinking like that...
    I think you may be confusing 5G with the broader networking market. Currently no US companies that I know of are making 5G equipment, but Huawei makes other, non 5G networking equipment.
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  • Reply 60 of 103
    MplsPmplsp Posts: 4,177member

    MplsP said:
    MplsP said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    I'll trade AT&T for Huawei any day of the week:
    Since 2015, China has reportedly outspent the US by $24 billion in 5G infrastructure. In the same period, according to media reports, the US built fewer than 30,000 new cell sites, while the corresponding number in China was more than 10 times higher.

    But, that is probably the biggest reason Apple needs to roll out a 5G phone as quickly as possible -- simply to stay competitive.   We can't look at Keokuk, Iowa or Hillbilly, WV and use that as the basis for whether we need 5G phones of not.

    I always have to laugh at you throwing out such numbers from China, and especially, as if China is all that far along in 5G operation;

    https://www.worldtimezone.com/5g.html

    That link suggests that China wouldn't have any Commerciall 5G until October of this year, which was behind the U.S., among others. Apple shipping iPhones in volume next September with mmwave 5G capabilities will still be far ahead of most of the 5G infrastructure yet to occur by any country or telecom.

    And here's another couple of links to Chinese spying and influence;

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/defecting-chinese-spy-offers-information-trove-to-australian-government-20191122-p53d1l.html

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/peter-hartcher-on-china-s-infiltration-of-australia-20191118-p53bly.html

    The security problem for Huawei in the West is that China and the CCP controls Huawei, so why would any country allow Huawei into critical telecom infrastructure?

    An example from the Philippines;

    https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3038655/china-can-turn-philippine-national-power-grid-officials-say

    Oh, and Merkel in Germany is under fire from her own party to reverse her position on allowing Huawei in Germany's telecom infrastructure:

    https://www.dw.com/en/german-parliament-to-decide-on-huawei-5g-involvement-merkels-cdu-party-agrees/a-51379848

    Of course, China is threatening Germany with trade reprisals.
    No, sorry, but 5G is already up and running in China and expanding rapidly.
    And, no, despite a plethora of right wing conspiracy theories, Huawei is not controlled by the Chinese government or the CCP.
    And, while there are always some paranoid right wing conspiracy theorists having hissy fits, even the Trump administration has backed off their claims that there is any evidence Huawei has ever spied on anybody.  That nonsense is just propaganda to support Trump's failing Trade War.
    It's quite humorous that you never post any links to support your POV or arguments wrt China, yet are happy to post, twice, "right wing conspiracy theory" as if I didn't actually post factual links.



    Posting links?   You and Trump can make it up faster than I can disprove it.  It would be an exercise in futility.  I'll just stick to reality.
    One person posts supporting evidence. The other just makes claims without any support. Why should anyone believe you?
    We have seen from far left & far right politics how listing "facts" is a great way to tell a lie because, when one starts with the conclusion and then backs into whatever facts support that conclusion the result is still bull no matter how many "Facts" they roll out.

    As I said, I'll stick to reality.  You can believe it or not.  That's up to you.
    So your argument is that giving a conclusion based on facts is the same as making your conclusion first and cherry picking facts to support it, but since you don’t use any facts at all, you must be right! 

    I have to admit, it’s a great way to debate. Not being burdened by annoying facts opens up so many possibilities!




    Did you read what I said?    
    Yes, did you? after I pointed out that you are not supporting your position you posted how people use 'facts' to tell a lie and their conclusion is bull, then proceeded to say you're sticking to reality but don't give any facts at all.

    I don't deny that people may ignore facts that don't support their position, but to use that as an augment for not needing to support your position is, in your words, bull. Your logic needs some work.
    edited November 2019
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