Epic Games CEO criticizes Apple's App Store policies in interview

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 104
    TheNubiTheNubi Posts: 19member
    DAalseth said:
    TheNubi said:
    DAalseth said:
    "If every developer could accept their own payments and avoid the 30% tax by Apple and Google we could pass the savings along to all our consumers and players would get a better deal on items."

    A: This ignores the cost to the developers of setting up and running their own stores.
    B: No they wouldn't "pass the savings along". they'd pocket it. 

    This is  totally self serving and disingenuous statement by Sweeney.

    B. You don’t know that. No one has had an opportunity to see if it would happen or not. Even if they pocket the difference it won’t make much difference to the user. 
    Oh yes I do.  
    First if each developer absorbed the overhead of setting up their own store it would cost at least as much if not more. Second if they went with another company to provide the storefront service, the cost would be roughly the same. Lastly if by some miracle Apple or someone else offered a digital storefront for free with no % cut for the cost, the developers would simply pocket the difference. Most developers work on thin margins and an extra 30% would be better plowed back into the business rather than dropping prices for likely no increase in sales. 

    The 30% would NEVER go back to the customers. 
    From this very article, Epic only charges 12% for their store. If you didn’t need a specific store front, there are any number of online payment processing services available that many companies use. Paying to host an image of your installer is likewise very cheap. Distributing software via the internet is not complex or expensive in 2020. The point is options are there if not for Apple’s artificial barrier. 30% for distribution has always been too much, but its a ransom that has to be paid because there is no other option. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 22 of 104
    ivanhivanh Posts: 597member
    Xcode and Swift change too frequent and prematurely and the inconsistencies in coding force app development expensive because every coder needs to keep update and workaround Swift and Xcode problems. Apps are shallow and lack of depth.  Old bugs stay as is for years because apps only focus on “new features”. 
    Monopoly of App Stores is like running a totalitarian regime. 
    Do you find any landmarking improvement in house apps like Contacts, Calendar and etc.?
    On the iPhone 11, you can’t even spotlight search an appointment 3 years ago  though you go to exactly that date and the event is still there!
    All because of the monopoly of the App Store.
  • Reply 23 of 104
    qwerty52qwerty52 Posts: 360member
    TheNubi said:
    DAalseth said:
    "If every developer could accept their own payments and avoid the 30% tax by Apple and Google we could pass the savings along to all our consumers and players would get a better deal on items."

    A: This ignores the cost to the developers of setting up and running their own stores.
    B: No they wouldn't "pass the savings along". they'd pocket it. 

    This is  totally self serving and disingenuous statement by Sweeney.
    A. Those that don’t want to incur the cost can still use Apple’s infrastructure and pay the fees. As it is now there is no choice. 
    B. You don’t know that. No one has had an opportunity to see if it would happen or not. Even if they pocket the difference it won’t make much difference to the user. 
    And C. Where is the security for the users gone?
  • Reply 24 of 104
    matrix077matrix077 Posts: 868member
    ivanh said:
    Xcode and Swift change too frequent and prematurely and the inconsistencies in coding force app development expensive because every coder needs to keep update and workaround Swift and Xcode problems. Apps are shallow and lack of depth.  Old bugs stay as is for years because apps only focus on “new features”. 
    Monopoly of App Stores is like running a totalitarian regime. 

    Don’t do it then. Find a regime you like, or another profession.

    All good now?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 104
    qwerty52qwerty52 Posts: 360member

    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    No, I will put it so: Because of iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, "Developers" are creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. 
    My iPhone is working perfectly fine with Apple’s only applications. That’s the reason I bought it! And not because I could play eventually some games. This is the first! Then I can go possibly to the AppStore and buy somethings from the developers. But only because I know: It is secur.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 104
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,919member
    How can you ‘lock down’ a system that never pretended to be ‘open’ in the first place? Why should the other, failed App Store approaches be forced on Apple and its customers?
    edited July 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 104
    xyzzy01xyzzy01 Posts: 109member
    "If every developer could accept their own payments and avoid the 30% tax by Apple and Google we could pass the savings along to all our consumers and players would get a better deal on items. And you'd have economic competition."

    While I certainly see the problematic part of the 30% tax, there is no reason to believe the CEO's statement here. These items have a marginal cost of 0, and are priced at the level that results in maximum revenue. 
    aderutterwatto_cobraFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 28 of 104
    frnckfrnck Posts: 1member
    Like if Walmart was giving you cash to buy in their stores! Why does the debate ignores always that distributors have always had a cut for their effort? Apple sells hardware and distributes software on it. When you think there is a market, define the price and let it be distributed for you! I value the screening made by Apple and no longer buy outside of the store on my Mac either and above all I value the simplicity. I believe there are options to buy outside and use on Apple devices but you will find users like me that will pay the extra for the simplicity....and those are typically users that pay....whilst It seems to me complaining developers keep listening to users that don’t want to pay and get everything for free....
    get seriouswatto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 104
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    Nothing spot on on that post (and yours). People buys iPhone because it's iPhone first and foremost, not because it runs this app and that app. People can find most apps on Android anyway.
    If you think iPhone depend greatly on your app why don't put your money where your mouth is? Pull your apps away from iPhone and see if users flock away, or you'll just leave space for other devs to fill.
    I am NOT an App developer for iOS or Android. So your personal attacks on me are pretty meaningless. Re-read your own post many times (millions of times if required) until it gets to your head that "Apple needs developers" to keep their platform "healthy" and "desirable". The relationship between Apple and Developers is that of "Partners", not "Master (Apple) / Servant (Developers)" as many of you seem to imply.
  • Reply 30 of 104
    qwerty52 said:

    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    No, I will put it so: Because of iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, "Developers" are creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. 
    My iPhone is working perfectly fine with Apple’s only applications. That’s the reason I bought it! And not because I could play eventually some games. This is the first! Then I can go possibly to the AppStore and buy somethings from the developers. But only because I know: It is secur.
    Are you so sure about the point bolded by me?????? Are you really, really serious???? You are fine with NO third party apps like uber/facebook/google maps/twitter/banking/food delivery apps etc???? And do you believe that almost ALL of the 1 billion users of iOS devices think likewise???
  • Reply 31 of 104
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    matrix077 said:
    ivanh said:
    Xcode and Swift change too frequent and prematurely and the inconsistencies in coding force app development expensive because every coder needs to keep update and workaround Swift and Xcode problems. Apps are shallow and lack of depth.  Old bugs stay as is for years because apps only focus on “new features”. 
    Monopoly of App Stores is like running a totalitarian regime. 

    Don’t do it then. Find a regime you like, or another profession.

    All good now?
    Why is this the response to discussion of Apple's problems?  I'm an Apple enthusiast and I want Apple to fix problems, not to drive away users to other platforms.  
    elijahg
  • Reply 32 of 104
    xyzzy01xyzzy01 Posts: 109member
    frnck said:
    Like if Walmart was giving you cash to buy in their stores! Why does the debate ignores always that distributors have always had a cut for their effort? Apple sells hardware and distributes software on it. When you think there is a market, define the price and let it be distributed for you! I value the screening made by Apple and no longer buy outside of the store on my Mac either and above all I value the simplicity. I believe there are options to buy outside and use on Apple devices but you will find users like me that will pay the extra for the simplicity....and those are typically users that pay....whilst It seems to me complaining developers keep listening to users that don’t want to pay and get everything for free....
    Because you can buy and run software on Windows and MacOS without any cut to the platform vendor. They have sold you their products (OS, HW etc) already, they're not trying to double dip by acting as a mandatory toll fee gatekeeper as well.

    On the opposite side, you have consoles where this have not been possible... but the HW has often been sold at a loss (at least if including R&D), and the profit was in controlling the software.

    elijahg
  • Reply 33 of 104
    matrix077matrix077 Posts: 868member
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    Nothing spot on on that post (and yours). People buys iPhone because it's iPhone first and foremost, not because it runs this app and that app. People can find most apps on Android anyway.
    If you think iPhone depend greatly on your app why don't put your money where your mouth is? Pull your apps away from iPhone and see if users flock away, or you'll just leave space for other devs to fill.
    I am NOT an App developer for iOS or Android. So your personal attacks on me are pretty meaningless. Re-read your own post many times (millions of times if required) until it gets to your head that "Apple needs developers" to keep their platform "healthy" and "desirable". The relationship between Apple and Developers is that of "Partners", not "Master (Apple) / Servant (Developers)" as many of you seem to imply.
    Who implied that Apple is master? I only saw some implied that developers are too greedy and self entitled. 

    And personal attack? Where is it? If you can’t discuss on what’s posted instead of putting words in people’s mouth then perhaps it’d be best for you to not be online?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 104
    qwerty52qwerty52 Posts: 360member
    qwerty52 said:

    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    No, I will put it so: Because of iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, "Developers" are creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. 
    My iPhone is working perfectly fine with Apple’s only applications. That’s the reason I bought it! And not because I could play eventually some games. This is the first! Then I can go possibly to the AppStore and buy somethings from the developers. But only because I know: It is secur.
    Are you so sure about the point bolded by me?????? Are you really, really serious???? You are fine with NO third party apps like uber/facebook/google maps/twitter/banking/food delivery apps etc???? And do you believe that almost ALL of the 1 billion users of iOS devices think likewise???
    Yes, I am absolutely sure! And I am sure that nobody of that 1 billion users of iOS devices, will buy an iPhone or iPad, only because of apps like Uber/Facebook/Google maps/Twitter...etc!
    It is ridiculous to think, that because I want Facebook app, therefore I will buy an iOS device 
    People buy an iPhone because it is an iPhone. And buying apps is something secondary, individual for each user.
    aderutteruraharachiajony0watto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 104
    citpekscitpeks Posts: 193member
    I don't think Apple is entirely in the clear, and will probably be forced to alter its policies in terms of how it competes against developers instead of how much they charge for the services.

    OTOH, I wonder if the heads of these companies, and others who complain ever patronize the concessionaires at places like movie theaters, sports games, or airports?

    Theater owners and sports franchise owners either have ownership of the concessionaires in their venues, or tightly control them, and often don't permit "outside" food and drink.  As private businesses, providing what could be considered a complete entertainment package, on private premises, that might be reasonable.

    Airport authorities do the same, however, and are public, not private entities.  They control the selection of concessionaires, and how they do business.  The TSA enforces the restrictions on what can be brought in, so if one is caught being hungry, they have to pony up $5 for a pastry, and wash it down with a $3 water, $4 soda, or whatever.  Those costs are obviously higher because the market isn't open, and the vendors have to cover the higher rents that they pay the government for a coveted space, inside a captive market with limited competition.  That also applies to the transportation options that serve airports, which are tightly regulated, and involve fees and higher costs.

    Is that any more acceptable, because it's the government behind it?  Who is going to lead that charge to change that?
    aderuttermattinozwatto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 104
    matrix077matrix077 Posts: 868member
    crowley said:
    matrix077 said:
    ivanh said:
    Xcode and Swift change too frequent and prematurely and the inconsistencies in coding force app development expensive because every coder needs to keep update and workaround Swift and Xcode problems. Apps are shallow and lack of depth.  Old bugs stay as is for years because apps only focus on “new features”. 
    Monopoly of App Stores is like running a totalitarian regime. 

    Don’t do it then. Find a regime you like, or another profession.

    All good now?
    Why is this the response to discussion of Apple's problems?  I'm an Apple enthusiast and I want Apple to fix problems, not to drive away users to other platforms.  
    I don’t think 30% cut is a problem. I remember that not too long ago the distribution costs are much more than this. I’m being realistic.
    What’s the problem of 30% cut?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 104
    matrix077matrix077 Posts: 868member

    qwerty52 said:

    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    No, I will put it so: Because of iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, "Developers" are creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. 
    My iPhone is working perfectly fine with Apple’s only applications. That’s the reason I bought it! And not because I could play eventually some games. This is the first! Then I can go possibly to the AppStore and buy somethings from the developers. But only because I know: It is secur.
    Are you so sure about the point bolded by me?????? Are you really, really serious???? You are fine with NO third party apps like uber/facebook/google maps/twitter/banking/food delivery apps etc???? And do you believe that almost ALL of the 1 billion users of iOS devices think likewise???
    People like you makes discussion impossible. Sigh..

    All the apps you listed are free or mostly free and isn’t the problem the topic talking about. Apple doesn’t charge them a cent and didn’t get a cent from them. 
    KNOWS what is discussed first. 
    edited July 2020 qwerty52chiawatto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 104
    NaiyasNaiyas Posts: 96member
    Are you so sure about the point bolded by me?????? Are you really, really serious???? You are fine with NO third party apps like uber/facebook/google maps/twitter/banking/food delivery apps etc???? And do you believe that almost ALL of the 1 billion users of iOS devices think likewise???
    Lets just take my use case as an example to feedback on this point. While I do not think my use case reflects anyone else's it is a direct counter to your questions:
    1. If I look at my screen time usage statistics, well over 80% of my iPhone usage is for only Apple's applications. Of the less than 20% not on Apple's applications 40% is because I prefer Overcast to the Podcasts app, 30% is for Plex, and all other apps account for the remaining 30%. Of these, almost all of them I could do via Safari if desired.
    2. Yes, I'm serious.
    3. If I HAD to live without third party apps, then yes. Of the app examples you have listed, the only app type I actually use is banking. I don't use Uber, Facebook, Google Maps, or Twitter at all. Food Delivery is actually only for our weekly shop and this can be done just as well, if not better, via their website. In fact, during the COVID lockdown, the app has been turned off with a redirection to their website so the app is no longer of benefit. I don't do any other food delivery as its both cheaper and quicker to cook anything myself - not to mention a whole lot healthier.
    4. No, I do not believe that for a minute. But as another poster has pointed out, I would guess a large number of those people would find that their app usage is mainly for "free" apps where the 30% cut is an irrelevant argument. One thing to point out here though is those apps that do charge are effectively paying for the cost of hosting, curating, and marketing those apps that are free.
    Whilst I agree that today a 30% cut may seem high, it was only around a decade ago that these apps would be losing anywhere from 60-80% of the price in distribution & marketing costs. My view is that 10-15% is probably about the right level today - which is what a subscription app pays after the first year.

    qwerty52matrix077watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 104
    citpeks said: I don't think Apple is entirely in the clear, and will probably be forced to alter its policies in terms of how it competes against developers instead of how much they charge for the services.
    IMO, the stumbling block for legislation is primarily about whether you differentiate between physical stores and digital stores and whether or not that differentiation will stand up to legal challenges in court. A physical chain like Trader Joe's is currently allowed to pick and choose which areas of the store have 3rd party products in competition with their own 1st party products. The beer/wine/liquor section of Trader Joe's is full of 3rd party competition, while the rest of the store has very little. WalMart can individually negotiate with 3rd parties who want to sell items in their stores, which means the cost to sell on WalMart's shelves isn't uniform. Bigger companies with more leverage in negotiations with WalMart can get better deals while smaller ones with less leverage can get significantly worse deals. And pretty much any physical chain of a decent size will have it's own 1st party products (usually priced cheaper) competing with 3rd party ones on the same shelves. Are there really any limits on what a physical store can offer as a 1st party in competition with 3rd parties? Has Congress ever tried to limit how they negotiate the price to sell on their shelves? Or required that they provide 3rd party competition to their own products everywhere in the store?
    edited July 2020 aderutterchiawatto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 104
    DAalseth said:
    "If every developer could accept their own payments and avoid the 30% tax by Apple and Google we could pass the savings along to all our consumers and players would get a better deal on items."

    A: This ignores the cost to the developers of setting up and running their own stores.
    B: No they wouldn't "pass the savings along". they'd pocket it. 

    This is  totally self serving and disingenuous statement by Sweeney.
    I think everyone knows that if Epic didn't have to pay the 30% cut they'd turn around and say that "the rising costs of game development" precluded them from lowering prices. I've noticed that the next generation of 4K gaming consoles look like they'll have a price hike to $70 for the games. 
    Dogpersonwatto_cobra
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