Epic Games CEO criticizes Apple's App Store policies in interview

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  • Reply 101 of 104
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,259member
    qwerty52 said:
    danvm said:
    qwerty52 said:
    danvm said:
    qwerty52 said:
    danvm said:
    qwerty52 said:
    qwerty52 said:

    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    No, I will put it so: Because of iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, "Developers" are creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. 
    My iPhone is working perfectly fine with Apple’s only applications. That’s the reason I bought it! And not because I could play eventually some games. This is the first! Then I can go possibly to the AppStore and buy somethings from the developers. But only because I know: It is secur.
    Are you so sure about the point bolded by me?????? Are you really, really serious???? You are fine with NO third party apps like uber/facebook/google maps/twitter/banking/food delivery apps etc???? And do you believe that almost ALL of the 1 billion users of iOS devices think likewise???
    Yes, I am absolutely sure! And I am sure that nobody of that 1 billion users of iOS devices, will buy an iPhone or iPad, only because of apps like Uber/Facebook/Google maps/Twitter...etc!
    It is ridiculous to think, that because I want Facebook app, therefore I will buy an iOS device 
    People buy an iPhone because it is an iPhone. And buying apps is something secondary, individual for each user.
    Apps maybe a secondary reason for you, but for many (individuals and business / enterprises) are as important as the device itself.   Personally, I didn't buy an iPhone because of Uber / Facebook / Google Maps / Twitter, but I would not had buy it if the apps I need were not available.  For example, look what happened to Windows Phone.  Excellent OS for it's time, with no developer support, and it failed  You are wrong if you think developers are not an important part of the iPhone success.  
    I understand what you mean, but you are just confirming  what I am saying.  Windows Phone didn’t make it. Windows Phone didn’t had users.
    That is the reason why all the developers ran away from this platform. Why then the developers didn’t  helped iWindows Phone to become the number one?
    I know, the developers are very, very important for the iOS. But iOS for the developers is it like the theater stage  for the artists and musicians, the place where they can show them self’s and make money .
    Not opposite around. No stage, no performance, no money.
    I posted about Windows because I had one for some months, and although it was very good, even better than the iPhone in some tasks, what you could do with it was limited because the few apps it had.  Customers would not go to a platform where they cannot work, see their social media, play their games or watch their movies / series.  In the beginning what Apple did with the iPhone move customers to purchase it, and developers followed.  But today is a different story.  Suppose that Apple close the App Store and block 3rd party apps.  Don't you think sales will drop drastically?  I think so, specially when you consider that Apple don't have a dominant app or service.  I don't think most people would buy a device that only can use Apple Apps and services.  As today, Facebook and Twitter control social media.  MS is the leader in business and enterprise with MS Office and Microsoft 365 cloud services.  Google is miles ahead of iCloud, Maps and other Apple services.  And Neflix and Spotify lead in streaming movies / series and music.  These are some of the services most people use in their devices, including iPhone.  And there are other essentials, as banks and local news apps.  Just remove the apps I mentioned, and I'm sure sales will slow down.  Following your comparison, customers pay to go to the theater to see the musician.  They will not pay just to sit in an empty theater, with no artist.  
    Non of the apps you’ve listed hire, are on my iOS devices. Pages and Numbers do a perfect job and I simply convert the file if I have to send it to someone who is using MS Office.  Google service’s I don’t use at all. And  I have good reason therefore. Even my search engine  is not Google. And Apple’s maps for me are more reliable than Google’s Wase.
    And do you think the majority of users are the same as you, just using Apple apps and services?  Considering the massive numbers of users connected to Google, MS, Facebook, Twitter, Spotify and Amazon services every day/month with their respective apps, you are in a very small group of iPhone customers.  Like I said before, remove those apps and services from customers devices, and I'm sure most of them will move to another platform.  As today, Apple platform is as important as the developers.  

    But I would like to remind you that the discussion here goes over something different: is the Apple’s AppStore policy correct or not.
    If you look at the beginning of this conversation, it was about the importance of developers in the Apple platform, and Epic is one of them.  So I think this discussion is related to the article.   
    Ok, I am maybe not a typical user, but I am not the only one. And I still believe the most important thing is the platform in combination with very good devices, in this case iOS in combination with iPhone/iPad.
    The combination of iPad and iPad is useless without the apps users  needs.  Maybe you don't see the importance since, like you said, you are not the typical user.  How good is a device or device that don't allow me to the things I need?
    No such combination, no 3-th party apps. Don’t get me wrong , I have enormously respect for the developers. I know that they make our life easier, but to do this, they need a ground, they need a platform 
    Yes, Apple gave developers a platform where users wanted to be, no one can discuss that.   But today things are different.  People love the iPhone because it's an excellent OS and have the apps they need.  Remove the apps from the equation, and it's an useless devices for most users.  I have said it many times, the apps are as important as the device.  
  • Reply 102 of 104
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    crowley said:
    TheNubi said:
    geekmee said:
    TheNubi said:
    DAalseth said:
    TheNubi said:
    DAalseth said:
    "If every developer could accept their own payments and avoid the 30% tax by Apple and Google we could pass the savings along to all our consumers and players would get a better deal on items."

    A: This ignores the cost to the developers of setting up and running their own stores.
    B: No they wouldn't "pass the savings along". they'd pocket it. 

    This is  totally self serving and disingenuous statement by Sweeney.

    B. You don’t know that. No one has had an opportunity to see if it would happen or not. Even if they pocket the difference it won’t make much difference to the user. 
    Oh yes I do.  
    First if each developer absorbed the overhead of setting up their own store it would cost at least as much if not more. Second if they went with another company to provide the storefront service, the cost would be roughly the same. Lastly if by some miracle Apple or someone else offered a digital storefront for free with no % cut for the cost, the developers would simply pocket the difference. Most developers work on thin margins and an extra 30% would be better plowed back into the business rather than dropping prices for likely no increase in sales. 

    The 30% would NEVER go back to the customers. 
    From this very article, Epic only charges 12% for their store. If you didn’t need a specific store front, there are any number of online payment processing services available that many companies use. Paying to host an image of your installer is likewise very cheap. Distributing software via the internet is not complex or expensive in 2020. The point is options are there if not for Apple’s artificial barrier. 30% for distribution has always been too much, but its a ransom that has to be paid because there is no other option. 
    “ 30% for distribution has always been too much, but its a ransom that has to be paid because there is no other option. ”

    YES... There are other options!....
    Options the CEO of Epic Games has decided not to pay... In choosing to pay Apple’s 30%.
    What are these options you claim the ceo is not taking? There is only one way to get software installed onto an iphone, and that is by going through apple’s store. 
    BS. Register for a free developer account and learn how to install an app you write onto the device you own. No app store required.

    I'm sure you can figure out a way to charge people for the source code of an app you write; the costs of such an effort are unknown (presumably high) and the end revenue is also unknown (presumably low). Compare to the costs of dealing with Apple's software stores and the estimated revenue of such. Also compare the time to implement for each approach. Make the decision that feels right for you.
    That's not a solution.  Even with the most generous reading that's a workaround at best.
    Well, I apologise for the snark. But my refutation of Nubi's claim is accurate: there is more than one way to install software on an iPhone.
    The developers would require their users to sign up for a recurring cost developer account and have access to a Mac with Xcode aqnd know how to use it.
    The users would require the developers to sell their source code and transfer the app package to them for compiling.

    This is in no way a useful suggestion, it is not the same as alternatives to the Mac App Store, this is ridiculous world.  In the real world that real people live in, there is only one practical way for users to get apps onto their iPhone.  That convoluted workarounds exist is not a refutation of the core point. 
  • Reply 103 of 104
    qwerty52qwerty52 Posts: 360member
    danvm said:
    qwerty52 said:
    danvm said:
    qwerty52 said:
    danvm said:
    qwerty52 said:
    danvm said:
    qwerty52 said:
    qwerty52 said:

    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    No, I will put it so: Because of iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, "Developers" are creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. 
    My iPhone is working perfectly fine with Apple’s only applications. That’s the reason I bought it! And not because I could play eventually some games. This is the first! Then I can go possibly to the AppStore and buy somethings from the developers. But only because I know: It is secur.
    Are you so sure about the point bolded by me?????? Are you really, really serious???? You are fine with NO third party apps like uber/facebook/google maps/twitter/banking/food delivery apps etc???? And do you believe that almost ALL of the 1 billion users of iOS devices think likewise???
    Yes, I am absolutely sure! And I am sure that nobody of that 1 billion users of iOS devices, will buy an iPhone or iPad, only because of apps like Uber/Facebook/Google maps/Twitter...etc!
    It is ridiculous to think, that because I want Facebook app, therefore I will buy an iOS device 
    People buy an iPhone because it is an iPhone. And buying apps is something secondary, individual for each user.
    Apps maybe a secondary reason for you, but for many (individuals and business / enterprises) are as important as the device itself.   Personally, I didn't buy an iPhone because of Uber / Facebook / Google Maps / Twitter, but I would not had buy it if the apps I need were not available.  For example, look what happened to Windows Phone.  Excellent OS for it's time, with no developer support, and it failed  You are wrong if you think developers are not an important part of the iPhone success.  
    I understand what you mean, but you are just confirming  what I am saying.  Windows Phone didn’t make it. Windows Phone didn’t had users.
    That is the reason why all the developers ran away from this platform. Why then the developers didn’t  helped iWindows Phone to become the number one?
    I know, the developers are very, very important for the iOS. But iOS for the developers is it like the theater stage  for the artists and musicians, the place where they can show them self’s and make money .
    Not opposite around. No stage, no performance, no money.
    I posted about Windows because I had one for some months, and although it was very good, even better than the iPhone in some tasks, what you could do with it was limited because the few apps it had.  Customers would not go to a platform where they cannot work, see their social media, play their games or watch their movies / series.  In the beginning what Apple did with the iPhone move customers to purchase it, and developers followed.  But today is a different story.  Suppose that Apple close the App Store and block 3rd party apps.  Don't you think sales will drop drastically?  I think so, specially when you consider that Apple don't have a dominant app or service.  I don't think most people would buy a device that only can use Apple Apps and services.  As today, Facebook and Twitter control social media.  MS is the leader in business and enterprise with MS Office and Microsoft 365 cloud services.  Google is miles ahead of iCloud, Maps and other Apple services.  And Neflix and Spotify lead in streaming movies / series and music.  These are some of the services most people use in their devices, including iPhone.  And there are other essentials, as banks and local news apps.  Just remove the apps I mentioned, and I'm sure sales will slow down.  Following your comparison, customers pay to go to the theater to see the musician.  They will not pay just to sit in an empty theater, with no artist.  
    Non of the apps you’ve listed hire, are on my iOS devices. Pages and Numbers do a perfect job and I simply convert the file if I have to send it to someone who is using MS Office.  Google service’s I don’t use at all. And  I have good reason therefore. Even my search engine  is not Google. And Apple’s maps for me are more reliable than Google’s Wase.
    And do you think the majority of users are the same as you, just using Apple apps and services?  Considering the massive numbers of users connected to Google, MS, Facebook, Twitter, Spotify and Amazon services every day/month with their respective apps, you are in a very small group of iPhone customers.  Like I said before, remove those apps and services from customers devices, and I'm sure most of them will move to another platform.  As today, Apple platform is as important as the developers.  

    But I would like to remind you that the discussion here goes over something different: is the Apple’s AppStore policy correct or not.
    If you look at the beginning of this conversation, it was about the importance of developers in the Apple platform, and Epic is one of them.  So I think this discussion is related to the article.   
    Ok, I am maybe not a typical user, but I am not the only one. And I still believe the most important thing is the platform in combination with very good devices, in this case iOS in combination with iPhone/iPad.
    The combination of iPad and iPad is useless without the apps users  needs.  Maybe you don't see the importance since, like you said, you are not the typical user.  How good is a device or device that don't allow me to the things I need?
    No such combination, no 3-th party apps. Don’t get me wrong , I have enormously respect for the developers. I know that they make our life easier, but to do this, they need a ground, they need a platform 
    Yes, Apple gave developers a platform where users wanted to be, no one can discuss that.   But today things are different.  People love the iPhone because it's an excellent OS and have the apps they need.  Remove the apps from the equation, and it's an useless devices for most users.  I have said it many times, the apps are as important as the device.  
    My 3-th party apps are professional, which years long,  could have been used  only on powerful laptops. Only the fact that the iPads, tanks to Appel, became  also powerful enough to be able to run thus programs as apps in iOS, gave the developers the opportunity to create them en to make money. And I would say it in this case again: no powerful iPads, no such apps, no money for the apps creators, because there’s no need for them.
    But this is not a competition between Apple and the developers. This is a collaboration in which the user is the winner 
  • Reply 104 of 104
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,259member
    qwerty52 said:
    danvm said:
    qwerty52 said:
    danvm said:
    qwerty52 said:
    danvm said:
    qwerty52 said:
    danvm said:
    qwerty52 said:
    qwerty52 said:

    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    No, I will put it so: Because of iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, "Developers" are creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. 
    My iPhone is working perfectly fine with Apple’s only applications. That’s the reason I bought it! And not because I could play eventually some games. This is the first! Then I can go possibly to the AppStore and buy somethings from the developers. But only because I know: It is secur.
    Are you so sure about the point bolded by me?????? Are you really, really serious???? You are fine with NO third party apps like uber/facebook/google maps/twitter/banking/food delivery apps etc???? And do you believe that almost ALL of the 1 billion users of iOS devices think likewise???
    Yes, I am absolutely sure! And I am sure that nobody of that 1 billion users of iOS devices, will buy an iPhone or iPad, only because of apps like Uber/Facebook/Google maps/Twitter...etc!
    It is ridiculous to think, that because I want Facebook app, therefore I will buy an iOS device 
    People buy an iPhone because it is an iPhone. And buying apps is something secondary, individual for each user.
    Apps maybe a secondary reason for you, but for many (individuals and business / enterprises) are as important as the device itself.   Personally, I didn't buy an iPhone because of Uber / Facebook / Google Maps / Twitter, but I would not had buy it if the apps I need were not available.  For example, look what happened to Windows Phone.  Excellent OS for it's time, with no developer support, and it failed  You are wrong if you think developers are not an important part of the iPhone success.  
    I understand what you mean, but you are just confirming  what I am saying.  Windows Phone didn’t make it. Windows Phone didn’t had users.
    That is the reason why all the developers ran away from this platform. Why then the developers didn’t  helped iWindows Phone to become the number one?
    I know, the developers are very, very important for the iOS. But iOS for the developers is it like the theater stage  for the artists and musicians, the place where they can show them self’s and make money .
    Not opposite around. No stage, no performance, no money.
    I posted about Windows because I had one for some months, and although it was very good, even better than the iPhone in some tasks, what you could do with it was limited because the few apps it had.  Customers would not go to a platform where they cannot work, see their social media, play their games or watch their movies / series.  In the beginning what Apple did with the iPhone move customers to purchase it, and developers followed.  But today is a different story.  Suppose that Apple close the App Store and block 3rd party apps.  Don't you think sales will drop drastically?  I think so, specially when you consider that Apple don't have a dominant app or service.  I don't think most people would buy a device that only can use Apple Apps and services.  As today, Facebook and Twitter control social media.  MS is the leader in business and enterprise with MS Office and Microsoft 365 cloud services.  Google is miles ahead of iCloud, Maps and other Apple services.  And Neflix and Spotify lead in streaming movies / series and music.  These are some of the services most people use in their devices, including iPhone.  And there are other essentials, as banks and local news apps.  Just remove the apps I mentioned, and I'm sure sales will slow down.  Following your comparison, customers pay to go to the theater to see the musician.  They will not pay just to sit in an empty theater, with no artist.  
    Non of the apps you’ve listed hire, are on my iOS devices. Pages and Numbers do a perfect job and I simply convert the file if I have to send it to someone who is using MS Office.  Google service’s I don’t use at all. And  I have good reason therefore. Even my search engine  is not Google. And Apple’s maps for me are more reliable than Google’s Wase.
    And do you think the majority of users are the same as you, just using Apple apps and services?  Considering the massive numbers of users connected to Google, MS, Facebook, Twitter, Spotify and Amazon services every day/month with their respective apps, you are in a very small group of iPhone customers.  Like I said before, remove those apps and services from customers devices, and I'm sure most of them will move to another platform.  As today, Apple platform is as important as the developers.  

    But I would like to remind you that the discussion here goes over something different: is the Apple’s AppStore policy correct or not.
    If you look at the beginning of this conversation, it was about the importance of developers in the Apple platform, and Epic is one of them.  So I think this discussion is related to the article.   
    Ok, I am maybe not a typical user, but I am not the only one. And I still believe the most important thing is the platform in combination with very good devices, in this case iOS in combination with iPhone/iPad.
    The combination of iPad and iPad is useless without the apps users  needs.  Maybe you don't see the importance since, like you said, you are not the typical user.  How good is a device or device that don't allow me to the things I need?
    No such combination, no 3-th party apps. Don’t get me wrong , I have enormously respect for the developers. I know that they make our life easier, but to do this, they need a ground, they need a platform 
    Yes, Apple gave developers a platform where users wanted to be, no one can discuss that.   But today things are different.  People love the iPhone because it's an excellent OS and have the apps they need.  Remove the apps from the equation, and it's an useless devices for most users.  I have said it many times, the apps are as important as the device.  
    My 3-th party apps are professional, which years long,  could have been used  only on powerful laptops. Only the fact that the iPads, tanks to Appel, became  also powerful enough to be able to run thus programs as apps in iOS, gave the developers the opportunity to create them en to make money.  
    And I would say it in this case again: no powerful iPads, no such apps, no money for the apps creators, because there’s no need for them.
    But this is not a competition between Apple and the developers. This is a collaboration in which the user is the winner 
    No one denies that Apple mobiles devices are the most powerful, and developers benefit from that.  But if Apple had no 3rd party apps, how useful would be that power for developers and customers?  IMO, no apps = useless beautiful Apple device.  It won't matter the advances Apple do with their platform if developers are not part of it.  That's have been my point since the start of the conversation.  You may not agree, considering you don't think people buy iPhone's because of apps.  But just look around and you'll notice that most of Apple mobile devices have 3rd party apps installed.  Believe it or not, developers are as important as the Apple platform.  
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