Epic Games CEO criticizes Apple's App Store policies in interview

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  • Reply 41 of 104
    chaickachaicka Posts: 255member
    DAalseth said:
    "If every developer could accept their own payments and avoid the 30% tax by Apple and Google we could pass the savings along to all our consumers and players would get a better deal on items."

    A: This ignores the cost to the developers of setting up and running their own stores.
    B: No they wouldn't "pass the savings along". they'd pocket it. 

    This is  totally self serving and disingenuous statement by Sweeney.
    Indeed. Since when have we seen developers or publishers pass down savings? Even banks which have gone digital and saves millions on 'over-counter' ops did not pass those savings down? In fact, it just gotten worse - everything is now charged - a cheque book, each online transaction, newer mobile payment methods which are stated 'free' until DD MMM YYYY. Just a matter of time once adoption gets up to certain %, they will start charging fee.

    Who is this CEO trying to fool???
    StrangeDaysmatrix077watto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 104
    j2fusionj2fusion Posts: 151member
    xyzzy01 said:
    frnck said:
    Like if Walmart was giving you cash to buy in their stores! Why does the debate ignores always that distributors have always had a cut for their effort? Apple sells hardware and distributes software on it. When you think there is a market, define the price and let it be distributed for you! I value the screening made by Apple and no longer buy outside of the store on my Mac either and above all I value the simplicity. I believe there are options to buy outside and use on Apple devices but you will find users like me that will pay the extra for the simplicity....and those are typically users that pay....whilst It seems to me complaining developers keep listening to users that don’t want to pay and get everything for free....
    Because you can buy and run software on Windows and MacOS without any cut to the platform vendor. They have sold you their products (OS, HW etc) already, they're not trying to double dip by acting as a mandatory toll fee gatekeeper as well.

    On the opposite side, you have consoles where this have not been possible... but the HW has often been sold at a loss (at least if including R&D), and the profit was in controlling the software.

    Can you go to Walmart’s distributor and buy directly from them without paying Walmart’s cut?  In most cases no.  For some reason because it’s digital and people can’t touch it, they think there are no costs associated with it.  It reminds me of the early personal computer days when friends I knew that would never shoplift or otherwise steal, would ask me if I had any software they could copy. Also, we have the model where you can get software from other that the “Official” App Store called Android—how’s that working out?  
    qwerty52DogpersonStrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 104
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,652member
    Everyone I know does anything they can to avoid the Epic games store because it's total crap. They regularly push offers, exclusives and free games to try and get people to stick around, but they don't.

    That said, if someone wants to install software on their own hardware, which is 100% theirs, not on license like software is; then so be it. Let them do it, and let them face the consequences. That happens on the Mac just fine, and the Mac isn't plagued with malware and viruses. Apple loves control, any freedom to use their devices outside of their envisioned workflow is severely hampered, it's Apple's way or the highway - to the detriment of iOS/iPadOS.
    edited July 2020
  • Reply 44 of 104
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,261member
    qwerty52 said:

    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    No, I will put it so: Because of iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, "Developers" are creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. 
    My iPhone is working perfectly fine with Apple’s only applications. That’s the reason I bought it! And not because I could play eventually some games. This is the first! Then I can go possibly to the AppStore and buy somethings from the developers. But only because I know: It is secur.
    Do you think that Apple would rule the high-end smartphone market if there were not 3rd party apps?  In your case, iOS / iPadOS apps is more than enough, but I don't think it would be the case for the majority of users.  
  • Reply 45 of 104
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,261member
    qwerty52 said:
    qwerty52 said:

    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    No, I will put it so: Because of iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, "Developers" are creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. 
    My iPhone is working perfectly fine with Apple’s only applications. That’s the reason I bought it! And not because I could play eventually some games. This is the first! Then I can go possibly to the AppStore and buy somethings from the developers. But only because I know: It is secur.
    Are you so sure about the point bolded by me?????? Are you really, really serious???? You are fine with NO third party apps like uber/facebook/google maps/twitter/banking/food delivery apps etc???? And do you believe that almost ALL of the 1 billion users of iOS devices think likewise???
    Yes, I am absolutely sure! And I am sure that nobody of that 1 billion users of iOS devices, will buy an iPhone or iPad, only because of apps like Uber/Facebook/Google maps/Twitter...etc!
    It is ridiculous to think, that because I want Facebook app, therefore I will buy an iOS device 
    People buy an iPhone because it is an iPhone. And buying apps is something secondary, individual for each user.
    Apps maybe a secondary reason for you, but for many (individuals and business / enterprises) are as important as the device itself.   Personally, I didn't buy an iPhone because of Uber / Facebook / Google Maps / Twitter, but I would not had buy it if the apps I need were not available.  For example, look what happened to Windows Phone.  Excellent OS for it's time, with no developer support, and it failed  You are wrong if you think developers are not an important part of the iPhone success.  
    edited July 2020
  • Reply 46 of 104
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,261member
    matrix077 said:

    qwerty52 said:

    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    No, I will put it so: Because of iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, "Developers" are creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. 
    My iPhone is working perfectly fine with Apple’s only applications. That’s the reason I bought it! And not because I could play eventually some games. This is the first! Then I can go possibly to the AppStore and buy somethings from the developers. But only because I know: It is secur.
    Are you so sure about the point bolded by me?????? Are you really, really serious???? You are fine with NO third party apps like uber/facebook/google maps/twitter/banking/food delivery apps etc???? And do you believe that almost ALL of the 1 billion users of iOS devices think likewise???
    People like you makes discussion impossible. Sigh..

    All the apps you listed are free or mostly free and isn’t the problem the topic talking about. Apple doesn’t charge them a cent and didn’t get a cent from them. 
    KNOWS what is discussed first. 
    If you followed the whole conversation, you had noticed that it was related on how developers were part of the success of the iPhone, and had nothing to do with the App Store fees.  
  • Reply 47 of 104
    croprcropr Posts: 1,082member
    DAalseth said:
    TheNubi said:
    DAalseth said:
    "If every developer could accept their own payments and avoid the 30% tax by Apple and Google we could pass the savings along to all our consumers and players would get a better deal on items."

    A: This ignores the cost to the developers of setting up and running their own stores.
    B: No they wouldn't "pass the savings along". they'd pocket it. 

    This is  totally self serving and disingenuous statement by Sweeney.

    B. You don’t know that. No one has had an opportunity to see if it would happen or not. Even if they pocket the difference it won’t make much difference to the user. 
    Oh yes I do.  
    First if each developer absorbed the overhead of setting up their own store it would cost at least as much if not more. Second if they went with another company to provide the storefront service, the cost would be roughly the same. Lastly if by some miracle Apple or someone else offered a digital storefront for free with no % cut for the cost, the developers would simply pocket the difference. Most developers work on thin margins and an extra 30% would be better plowed back into the business rather than dropping prices for likely no increase in sales. 

    The 30% would NEVER go back to the customers. 
    As an app developer I must say that your claims are simply not true.  I make apps for iOS and Android, hosted in the App Store and Play Store respectively and I make web apps where I manage the hosting and secure payments myself.   For the web app, the cost of hosting is about 0.2% of the turn over of the web app and the cost of the secure payment is about 2.75%.  

    If Apple would allow to use the same payment processor I use for the web app, I would have savings on 3 fronts:  the cut of 30% would drop significantly,  during development I would only need to integrate with a single payment processor and lastly my operations and customer service would be less complex.

    And if you assume that Apple and Google are bringing me customers, you are wrong as well.  A survey among the customers of one of my apps revealed that 0  of them discovered the app in the App Store or the Play Store.   I attracted my customers by own own marketing efforts and by ad campaigns.


    FileMakerFeller
  • Reply 48 of 104
    I believe Apple's current path for iOS is entirely appropriate considering that iPhone is a critical device who correct function must be guaranteed since it is a last ditch must work communications device.

    Apple produces the development software, vets software for correct operation and lack of malicious operation, hosts applications, delivers them securely, and insures correct operation of the whole software pipeline. This dramatically increases the reliability and dependability of iOS software.

    If you want an open side loading market, develop for Android or Windows or the Mac.

    If something appeared with malicious intent in the Epic game store Sweeny would just shrug his shoulders and say, "Who knew?"

    The iOS app store and and the Epic store are entirely different propositions marketing entirely different products. Epic's products install into essentially unprotected environments and his security concerns are virtually nil. He shoulders no responsibility for the privacy of the users of his product, and the security of user data on the machines he installs on is none of his concern. He doesn't produce development tools outside of a graphical framework and doesn't curate a secure OS environment.

    There's a reason there's a higher level of trust for iOS devices, both among consumers as well as enterprise and govenment agencies.

    Sweeny's concern just involves dollars and access, while Apple's concerns go quite a bit beyond that.

    If you don't want to follow Apple's rules, there are plenty of other gardens to play in.
    sacto joechiamatrix077watto_cobraFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 49 of 104
    temperortemperor Posts: 64member
    For arguments sake how would a create a safe environment that let’s me ask my money back when something is bought and not to my liking? How can I be sure that is a malicious app gets to my iPhone I’m sure that third party AppStore will do the wright thing. How can I be sure that my payment information is not abused.
    Just asking.

    PS I was an android user and so where my children I have encountered all of the above on Android, 4 years into iPhone I never had any issue ... 

    PS2: it seems developers that became successful want more of the pie, not for the user, dream on it’s for their sake. They can today keep all the money they want, you only need to over the subscription outside of the App Store, which in my opinion is very clear, in App is Apple outside is third party. Oh and the need to offer both seems already flexible as the big boys already got from Apple what they want, which if you ask me is very generous, as all the costs go to Apple and the Big boys get to keep all the money. Netflix/Spotify/Adobe etc ... They get all my money directly without a cut for Apple ...

    PS3 It will kill the little developers, for example Apple Offers 1 PetaByte of storage via Cloudkit for free, imagine if you need to run that as a small developer, you would never be able launch that first great app.

    PS4 to all the smart people that want Apple to be forced to open the App store, you have an alternative too, buy yourselfs an Android phone, bye, bye, you wont be missed.
    matrix077watto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 104
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    Save us the “we could pass along the savings to consumers” BS. What company EVER does that? It’s always about more profit and higher share values.
    aderutterwatto_cobra
  • Reply 51 of 104
    JinTechJinTech Posts: 952member
    cropr said:
    DAalseth said:
    TheNubi said:
    DAalseth said:
    "If every developer could accept their own payments and avoid the 30% tax by Apple and Google we could pass the savings along to all our consumers and players would get a better deal on items."

    A: This ignores the cost to the developers of setting up and running their own stores.
    B: No they wouldn't "pass the savings along". they'd pocket it. 

    This is  totally self serving and disingenuous statement by Sweeney.

    B. You don’t know that. No one has had an opportunity to see if it would happen or not. Even if they pocket the difference it won’t make much difference to the user. 
    Oh yes I do.  
    First if each developer absorbed the overhead of setting up their own store it would cost at least as much if not more. Second if they went with another company to provide the storefront service, the cost would be roughly the same. Lastly if by some miracle Apple or someone else offered a digital storefront for free with no % cut for the cost, the developers would simply pocket the difference. Most developers work on thin margins and an extra 30% would be better plowed back into the business rather than dropping prices for likely no increase in sales. 

    The 30% would NEVER go back to the customers. 
    As an app developer I must say that your claims are simply not true.  I make apps for iOS and Android, hosted in the App Store and Play Store respectively and I make web apps where I manage the hosting and secure payments myself.   For the web app, the cost of hosting is about 0.2% of the turn over of the web app and the cost of the secure payment is about 2.75%.  

    If Apple would allow to use the same payment processor I use for the web app, I would have savings on 3 fronts:  the cut of 30% would drop significantly,  during development I would only need to integrate with a single payment processor and lastly my operations and customer service would be less complex.

    And if you assume that Apple and Google are bringing me customers, you are wrong as well.  A survey among the customers of one of my apps revealed that 0  of them discovered the app in the App Store or the Play Store.   I attracted my customers by own own marketing efforts and by ad campaigns.


    Okay but what you are forgetting is that Apple IS the one hosting, they are the ones processing the secure payments and there is a backbone to that, that requires hardware, software, development, an internet infrastructure (that supports billions of hits a day), payroll costs for a human to engineer and manage all of this, plus the cost of the building, the power, etc. 
    edited July 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 104
    rcfarcfa Posts: 1,124member
    Beats said:
    Apple stunting innovation.... What a fu**ing joke.

    Also Epic Games has a monopoly on Epic Games Store.
    No, they don’t. Because if you so choose, you can buy apps e.g. directly from developers or from other app stores.
    On iOS, you can’t.
    elijahg
  • Reply 53 of 104
    chasmchasm Posts: 2,579member
    swineone said:
    I prefer to think of it this way: my iPhone is mine, not Apple's, and I should have a say if Apple gets a 30% cut on all software I purchase.
    Oh? Do you get a say on how much profit your car's dealership and manufacturer make when you buy from them? Your grocery store? Your cable bill, your bank, your house's mortgage? The clothes you buy? The utility companies? The toll road your taxes helped pay for but you're still being charged for (for upkeep)? Do you "get a say" on how much money is taken out of your paycheque by state and federal authorities?

    No?

    Well why this? Why is this different from any of those?

    Oh wait, it isn't. The customer has never and will never get "a say" in how much profit a company can generate. That's up to the company. Of the examples I mentioned, you'd be quite surprised, I suspect, if you know the percentage those companies take over and above the actual cost. Apple's 30 percent is a) not always 30 percent, and b) actually quite small given the services they provide.

    That's not to say that no changes to anything are required, but the notion that a company that builds a service should be required to run it at break-even or a loss is as utterly laughable as your entire line of thinking on this.


    StrangeDaysaderuttermatrix077watto_cobraFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 54 of 104
    ToM42ToM42 Posts: 2member
    I use iPad because Apple promised to keep out those apps that crash it, or compromise my privacy, or steal my money, or promote crime, or are 'bad' in other ways.
    I knew that it is not 'open' when I bought the device, and that is ok for me.
    I accept that Apple's business model is a mix of device price and App Store revenues.
    And I understand that this whole concept would collapse if alternate app stores were allowed, because immediately all the business would move to 'cheaper' stores and iPhone/iPadOS would be flooded with bad stuff.
    Yes, I know that a lot of App Store apps is quite bad right now, and I hope Apple will improve their processes. But the current situation is much better than totally 'open gates'.
    StrangeDaysaderuttermatrix077watto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 104
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,259member
    "Apple has locked down and crippled the ecosystem by inventing an absolute monopoly on the distribution of software, on the monetization of software," Sweeney said. He later added, "If every developer could accept their own payments and avoid the 30% tax by Apple and Google we could pass the savings along to all our consumers and players would get a better deal on items. And you'd have economic competition." 

    ...couldn’t that be said of Sony or Xbox? They own the platforms, and anybody who wants to sell on it has to pay them. It’s the mall analogy...Apple built this mall and now all the software shops want a presence in the mall, but they don’t want to pay rent to be there. Or Target or Walmart — Epic can’t sell its products in them without paying for it, which for retailers means wholesaling to the retailer or worse their distributor, and letting the retailer (and or distributor) mark it up before it finally gets to the consumer. How is it any different?

    edited July 2020 aderutterwatto_cobra
  • Reply 56 of 104
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,259member
    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    How do you explain iPhone capturing the high-end smartphone market before there were even third-party apps? Remember, there wasn’t even an App Store yet everyone wanted the Jesus Phone. that’s Apple, not the developers. devs flocked to iPhone because of iPhone. 
    edited July 2020 aderutterqwerty52chiawatto_cobra
  • Reply 57 of 104
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,259member
    rcfa said:
    Beats said:
    Apple stunting innovation.... What a fu**ing joke.

    Also Epic Games has a monopoly on Epic Games Store.
    No, they don’t. Because if you so choose, you can buy apps e.g. directly from developers or from other app stores.
    On iOS, you can’t.
    How can I get Nintendo or Playstation games without using their stores or physical media? You can’t. By that logic Microsoft has a monopoly on Xbox, and McDonald’s has a monopoly on its stores and menus, etc etc... bogus argument
    aderutterchiawatto_cobra
  • Reply 58 of 104
    rcfarcfa Posts: 1,124member
    This debate, as usual, mixes three discussions:
    1) the amount Apple charges developers
    2) monopoly of distribution 
    3) Apple’s control over a user’s OWN device 

    ad 1) 30% were perfectly OK once upon a time when Apple had a massive infrastructure investment and did a fair amount to promote the store and the apps in it. By now, it’s nothing but a payment and download server, and for that 30% are excessive assume 5% for a CC transaction, 10% for storage and bandwidth, and 15% are more than enough. Maybe Apple should charge for the size of the app and discourage bloat ware and excessive mobile data usage, but 15% ought to be sufficient. Apple currently charges as much as companies charge for physical product payment, fulfillment and logistics, and that clearly means it’s too much.

    ad 2) Apple clearly has the right to decide what it associates its name with. As such it can allow/disallow whatever it wants in its AppStore.
    However, if its AppStore is the only means to distribute software that becomes a problem, not only because they can block competitors and legitimate software from being sold but also because...

    ad 3) ...Apple has no right to decide what a user uses a device for, that he bought. While Apple has the legitimate right e.g. not wanting to be associated with porn, and thus to prevent porn from being offered on the AppStore, it has no right to say a user can’t use his iPhone for porn. In short: if Apple restricts Apps based on content in its own AppStore, it must allow the user to install directly or from other AppStores, Apps that serve whatever content a user might desire that’s banned from the AppStore.

    While Apple and users likewise have an interest in a secure platform, achieving this by means of a walled garden app distribution is the wrong approach. The proper approach is by an OS capabilities and privilege system, that requires a user to grant apps access to specific privileges, while warning users of the consequences and banning apps from the AppStore which require excessive privileges. This way Apple can maintain its status as high quality curator without interfering with legitimate uses of applications, or restricting user’s choices.

    When I e.g. need an Android phone to do WiFi scanning for network troubleshooting because Apple prevents apps from accessing critical data, we know we have a problem. Obviously there’s a reason why Apple blocks that data, because e.g. a dating app would have no use for that data other than to track users, but a networking tool needs access to that data. That’s where Apple’s iOS privilege system and Apple’s role as curator both fail.

    Thus we need better curation, a more flexible privilege system that gives ultimate control over what an app may do to the user, competing means to download content and apps, aside from the AppStore.

    None of that will hurt Apple, all of it will benefit users.
    cropr
  • Reply 59 of 104
    1. The people who back Apple's position refuse to acknowledge the ability to install third party apps and app stores on macOS.
    2. The people who back Apple's position refuse to acknowledge that Apple has a monopoly over the ability to install apps on iPhone and iPad hardware that they would never countenance were the shoe on the other foot.

    Example: suppose Microsoft had blocked iTunes back in the day because they didn't want competition for its Zune Player. You folks would have screamed bloody murder.
    Example 2: suppose Google had blocked Apple Music and the "switch your Android to iPhone" app for obvious reasons (the way that Apple bans every single app that has Android in the name forcing Google to rename several of their apps from Android to Google). Again, you folks would scream bloody murder.

    Also, for the person who claims that Apple is so successful because of its security/privacy/quality control that comes from its monopoly on apps on its mobile hardware: please note that Google Play, the Amazon AppStore, the Samsung AppStore, Tencent, Xiaomi, 360 Mobile, Baidu and Huawei (the latter 5 being the top app stores in China) are very successful to the tune of billions of revenue a year. Claiming otherwise requires the bizarre "it is only successful if it is #1" standard that no Apple fan applies to any other product as Apple is most certainly not #1 - or even close - in PCs, speakers, headphones, TV boxes, streaming networks or cloud services. The whole "Apple dominates the premium smartphone market because of its security" ... looks at it backwards. Instead, Android is able to support no less than 10 profitable app stores precisely because you can get a $200 (or less) Android phone and install most of the apps that are available on the far more expensive iPhone. That is why the antitrust actions against Google over Android look totally different than the ones against Apple over iOS. With Android, there is a thriving competitive marketplace over Android apps. (Granted most of the action is in Europe and Asia, but even in America there is competition between Google and Amazon.) The EU lawsuits over Google's only willing to provide certain apps to Google Android devices was because lots of entities wanted to be able to install competing app stores but still have access to YouTube. So this is one situation where Apple fanboy rhetoric is absolutely in opposition to objective market reality. Developers do make money off third party app stores on Android, especially overseas. Those folks want that same opportunity on iOS.    

    The truth: Apple maintains their monopoly on software on iPhones, iPads, Apple TV and Apple Watch because they can get away with it. There are plenty of security and privacy issues that result from enabling third party applications on macOS. Apple allows them anyway because they have to. If they didn't allow third party apps on Macs then Macs would be as big a commercial failure as was Windows 10S (which only allowed Microsoft Store applications to be installed). There were rumours that Apple was going to lock down Macs to their App Store down the line once Apple Silicon matured, but Apple knows that were they to do so, developers and other professionals who need third party software - especially Linux tools installed using brew - would abandon the platform like the plague. Those users never needed Final Cut Pro X and other first party Apple software to begin with, find Office 365/Google Docs/LibreOffice "good enough" and would switch to Linux full time. 

    So in an actual monopoly trial or proceeding, Apple would be asked why iPhones are so locked down but Macs aren't and they would have no suitable explanation because everyone knows that the only difference is market conditions. 

    That being said I hope Apple somehow wins this trial and is able to retain their monopoly. I was a longtime Windows guy who migrated to Android, ChromeOS and Linux because those platforms better fit my needs. (I use macOS, true, but in the same way that I would were I running Ubuntu. Prior to switching to macOS, I was replacing Windows with Ubuntu on my machines anyway.) For this reason, I support users - and companies especially startups and small ones - having as much choice as possible that allows them to have quality options to meet their needs and wants as cheaply as possible. So I want Apple to be able to continue to make and sell devices that they lock down and monopolize for the benefit of consumers and businesses who need it and want it for whatever purpose they need and want it. People who don't want Apple's locked down mobile ecosystem have other choices (which despite what lots of Apple fans think is a very good thing). It should stay that way. 

    But if Apple wins, it won't be based on the totally bogus nonsense that they peddle that is only based on the U.S. market anyway, and that Apple fanboys regurgitate without any critical thinking or real knowledge of what the non-Apple tech landscape (again especially outside North America) looks like. Apple needs to abandon their current line of defense - which will fail - and come up with one that will work. I don't know, maybe they need to come out with two classes of device. One class that retains its current locked down state. Another class that allows third party app stores for those who want it. They could even charge more for the "Open iOS" devices and claim that the reason for the surcharge is because of the increased expense of providing privacy and security on an open platform (and they could point to Google and Microsoft as exhibits A. and B.). Then when absolutely positively no one buys the Open iOS devices, Apple can shut the program down (just as Google shut down their "Google Play Edition" program for third party devices with pure Google Android loaded with no third party or carrier skins or apps because no one wanted them) and let the lack of user and enterprise interest in the types of devices that Sweeney wants be their best defense against monopoly charges. But if the more expensive Open iOS devices actually sell? Even better. More money for Apple ... and one less reason to buy a Samsung Galaxy S instead of an iPhone. 
    elijahgmuthuk_vanalingamFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 60 of 104
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    rcfa said:
    Beats said:
    Apple stunting innovation.... What a fu**ing joke.

    Also Epic Games has a monopoly on Epic Games Store.
    No, they don’t. Because if you so choose, you can buy apps e.g. directly from developers or from other app stores.
    On iOS, you can’t.
    How can I get Nintendo or Playstation games without using their stores or physical media? You can’t. By that logic Microsoft has a monopoly on Xbox, and McDonald’s has a monopoly on its stores and menus, etc etc... bogus argument
    You can buy Nintendo, Microsoft and PlayStation game discs from many different vendors. Not sure what point you think you’ve proved there.

    If you’re saying (you’re not, but I’ll be generous) that some releases are digital only, and only available on the respective digital stores, then sure, that’s comparable and people complain about that too.  But that’s a minority of games.
    elijahg
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