Epic Games CEO criticizes Apple's App Store policies in interview

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  • Reply 61 of 104
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,261member
    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    How do you explain iPhone capturing the high-end smartphone market before there were even third-party apps? Remember, there wasn’t even an App Store yet everyone wanted the Jesus Phone. that’s Apple, not the developers. devs flocked to iPhone because of iPhone. 
    What you said could made sense in the early years of the iPhone, not today.  Do you think that an iPhone with no 3rd party support would be as popular as it is today?  Don't think so.  Apple kept it's popularity for being a great device and because developer support.
    edited July 2020 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 62 of 104
    aderutteraderutter Posts: 539member
    I think the point is that if I develop a game for PS4 or Xbox I can’t sell it without giving Sony or Microsoft a big chunk of every sale.

    Are there third party stores for downloading and installing console games? Nope.

    Any ruling against Apple should equally affect Sony & Microsoft consoles too.

    and this also applies to Valve who usually take 30% from Steam sales too.

    30% is both fair and the industry norm.

    Oh, and it’s apple’s eco-system no-one is making anyone develop apps for iOS app store. 
    They could always just make web based products instead.
    e.g. services that stream through mobile safari.
    or, you know stick to a different platform, or make their own platform.
    matrix077watto_cobraFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 63 of 104
    uraharaurahara Posts: 674member
    Who is going to pay Apple for opening up? For developing another system? For losing profits from that system?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 64 of 104
    uraharaurahara Posts: 674member
    qwerty52 said:

    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    No, I will put it so: Because of iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, "Developers" are creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. 
    My iPhone is working perfectly fine with Apple’s only applications. That’s the reason I bought it! And not because I could play eventually some games. This is the first! Then I can go possibly to the AppStore and buy somethings from the developers. But only because I know: It is secur.
    Are you so sure about the point bolded by me?????? Are you really, really serious???? You are fine with NO third party apps like uber/facebook/google maps/twitter/banking/food delivery apps etc???? And do you believe that almost ALL of the 1 billion users of iOS devices think likewise???
    Your button with the question mark seems to be stuck. Clean up your keyboard. Or buy a new one. 
    edited July 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 65 of 104
    qwerty52qwerty52 Posts: 360member
    danvm said:
    qwerty52 said:
    qwerty52 said:

    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    No, I will put it so: Because of iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, "Developers" are creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. 
    My iPhone is working perfectly fine with Apple’s only applications. That’s the reason I bought it! And not because I could play eventually some games. This is the first! Then I can go possibly to the AppStore and buy somethings from the developers. But only because I know: It is secur.
    Are you so sure about the point bolded by me?????? Are you really, really serious???? You are fine with NO third party apps like uber/facebook/google maps/twitter/banking/food delivery apps etc???? And do you believe that almost ALL of the 1 billion users of iOS devices think likewise???
    Yes, I am absolutely sure! And I am sure that nobody of that 1 billion users of iOS devices, will buy an iPhone or iPad, only because of apps like Uber/Facebook/Google maps/Twitter...etc!
    It is ridiculous to think, that because I want Facebook app, therefore I will buy an iOS device 
    People buy an iPhone because it is an iPhone. And buying apps is something secondary, individual for each user.
    Apps maybe a secondary reason for you, but for many (individuals and business / enterprises) are as important as the device itself.   Personally, I didn't buy an iPhone because of Uber / Facebook / Google Maps / Twitter, but I would not had buy it if the apps I need were not available.  For example, look what happened to Windows Phone.  Excellent OS for it's time, with no developer support, and it failed  You are wrong if you think developers are not an important part of the iPhone success.  
    I understand what you mean, but you are just confirming  what I am saying.  Windows Phone didn’t make it. Windows Phone didn’t had users.
    That is the reason why all the developers ran away from this platform. Why then the developers didn’t  helped iWindows Phone to become the number one?
    I know, the developers are very, very important for the iOS. But iOS for the developers is it like the theater stage  for the artists and musicians, the place where they can show them self’s and make money .
    Not opposite around. No stage, no performance, no money.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 66 of 104
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,652member
    rcfa said:
    Beats said:
    Apple stunting innovation.... What a fu**ing joke.

    Also Epic Games has a monopoly on Epic Games Store.
    No, they don’t. Because if you so choose, you can buy apps e.g. directly from developers or from other app stores.
    On iOS, you can’t.
    How can I get Nintendo or Playstation games without using their stores or physical media
    So you have thousands of alternative physical outlets for Nintendo or Playstation games. You just invalidated your own argument.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 67 of 104
    citpekscitpeks Posts: 193member
    citpeks said: I don't think Apple is entirely in the clear, and will probably be forced to alter its policies in terms of how it competes against developers instead of how much they charge for the services.
    IMO, the stumbling block for legislation is primarily about whether you differentiate between physical stores and digital stores and whether or not that differentiation will stand up to legal challenges in court. A physical chain like Trader Joe's is currently allowed to pick and choose which areas of the store have 3rd party products in competition with their own 1st party products. The beer/wine/liquor section of Trader Joe's is full of 3rd party competition, while the rest of the store has very little. WalMart can individually negotiate with 3rd parties who want to sell items in their stores, which means the cost to sell on WalMart's shelves isn't uniform. Bigger companies with more leverage in negotiations with WalMart can get better deals while smaller ones with less leverage can get significantly worse deals. And pretty much any physical chain of a decent size will have it's own 1st party products (usually priced cheaper) competing with 3rd party ones on the same shelves. Are there really any limits on what a physical store can offer as a 1st party in competition with 3rd parties? Has Congress ever tried to limit how they negotiate the price to sell on their shelves? Or required that they provide 3rd party competition to their own products everywhere in the store?

    Congress doesn't have the stomach to tackle such matters.  It did all that it could to avoid the issue of rationalizing online sales taxes by creating a Federal framework, so we ended up with the Judicial branch having to step in, with a Supreme Court ruling that resulted in a free-for-all with each state establishing their own guidelines.  It has also failed to address the lack of competitiveness in the telecom industry, and certain members have even sought to undermine potential efforts to promote more competition by attempting to put controls on municipalities, as well as the FCC itself.  They know who butters their bread, and it's not the constituents they purportedly serve.  And many of them of are technophobes who struggle with the digital realm anyway, so asking them to apply themselves might be risky.  The just postponed hearing with Cook, Pichai, Zuckerberg, and Bezos is going to be nothing more than a dog and pony show, from all parties involved.
  • Reply 68 of 104
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,652member
    chasm said:
    swineone said:
    I prefer to think of it this way: my iPhone is mine, not Apple's, and I should have a say if Apple gets a 30% cut on all software I purchase.
    Oh? Do you get a say on how much profit your car's dealership and manufacturer make when you buy from them? Your grocery store? Your cable bill, your bank, your house's mortgage? The clothes you buy? The utility companies? The toll road your taxes helped pay for but you're still being charged for (for upkeep)? Do you "get a say" on how much money is taken out of your paycheque by state and federal authorities?

    No?

    Well why this? Why is this different from any of those?

    Oh wait, it isn't. The customer has never and will never get "a say" in how much profit a company can generate. That's up to the company. Of the examples I mentioned, you'd be quite surprised, I suspect, if you know the percentage those companies take over and above the actual cost. Apple's 30 percent is a) not always 30 percent, and b) actually quite small given the services they provide.

    That's not to say that no changes to anything are required, but the notion that a company that builds a service should be required to run it at break-even or a loss is as utterly laughable as your entire line of thinking on this.


    You have missed the point entirely, which is in the physical world, if the terms of one store aren't agreeable for you, you can go to a different store. No such luck with iOS. 
  • Reply 69 of 104
    matrix077matrix077 Posts: 868member
    rcfa said:
    Beats said:
    Apple stunting innovation.... What a fu**ing joke.

    Also Epic Games has a monopoly on Epic Games Store.
    No, they don’t. Because if you so choose, you can buy apps e.g. directly from developers or from other app stores.
    On iOS, you can’t.
    For a good reason, to protect users, which Epic Stores or other stores seem not to care. 
    qwerty52watto_cobra
  • Reply 70 of 104
    matrix077matrix077 Posts: 868member
    1. The people who back Apple's position refuse to acknowledge the ability to install third party apps and app stores on macOS.

    Who refused to acknowledge it? 

    If I quote Steve Jobs every haters would say I'm a loyalist but he's right. iOS devices are different than Mac (a car to a truck). In my personal experience, people who using iPhone, iPad are my parents, my aunt, my uncle, my wife, my brother's wife etc.. The people who will never use a Mac or PC. People who's not a techie.
    People who's needed to be protected.
    (A guy above even said the same thing, that iOS devices is a critical communication devices that needs to be functioning all the time. Something that needs to be protected)

    A great thing about iOS devices is it's thoroughly controlled by one company. That IS a great thing, not a flaw.
    If you want differently, there's an Android.

    We’re in the world where ransom ware is a real threat folks. Be careful what you wish for. 
    edited July 2020 qwerty52watto_cobra
  • Reply 71 of 104
    matrix077matrix077 Posts: 868member
    elijahg said:
    chasm said:
    swineone said:
    I prefer to think of it this way: my iPhone is mine, not Apple's, and I should have a say if Apple gets a 30% cut on all software I purchase.
    Oh? Do you get a say on how much profit your car's dealership and manufacturer make when you buy from them? Your grocery store? Your cable bill, your bank, your house's mortgage? The clothes you buy? The utility companies? The toll road your taxes helped pay for but you're still being charged for (for upkeep)? Do you "get a say" on how much money is taken out of your paycheque by state and federal authorities?

    No?

    Well why this? Why is this different from any of those?

    Oh wait, it isn't. The customer has never and will never get "a say" in how much profit a company can generate. That's up to the company. Of the examples I mentioned, you'd be quite surprised, I suspect, if you know the percentage those companies take over and above the actual cost. Apple's 30 percent is a) not always 30 percent, and b) actually quite small given the services they provide.

    That's not to say that no changes to anything are required, but the notion that a company that builds a service should be required to run it at break-even or a loss is as utterly laughable as your entire line of thinking on this.


    You have missed the point entirely, which is in the physical world, if the terms of one store aren't agreeable for you, you can go to a different store. No such luck with iOS. 
    As a user, you can go to Android. Perfectly usable mobile devices.  
    As a developer, you can go to Android which charge the same, just as in a physical world where stores will charge you more or less the same if you want to trade in the same location or same kind of stores. 
    edited July 2020 qwerty52aderutterwatto_cobra
  • Reply 72 of 104
    geekmeegeekmee Posts: 598member
    TheNubi said:
    DAalseth said:
    TheNubi said:
    DAalseth said:
    "If every developer could accept their own payments and avoid the 30% tax by Apple and Google we could pass the savings along to all our consumers and players would get a better deal on items."

    A: This ignores the cost to the developers of setting up and running their own stores.
    B: No they wouldn't "pass the savings along". they'd pocket it. 

    This is  totally self serving and disingenuous statement by Sweeney.

    B. You don’t know that. No one has had an opportunity to see if it would happen or not. Even if they pocket the difference it won’t make much difference to the user. 
    Oh yes I do.  
    First if each developer absorbed the overhead of setting up their own store it would cost at least as much if not more. Second if they went with another company to provide the storefront service, the cost would be roughly the same. Lastly if by some miracle Apple or someone else offered a digital storefront for free with no % cut for the cost, the developers would simply pocket the difference. Most developers work on thin margins and an extra 30% would be better plowed back into the business rather than dropping prices for likely no increase in sales. 

    The 30% would NEVER go back to the customers. 
    From this very article, Epic only charges 12% for their store. If you didn’t need a specific store front, there are any number of online payment processing services available that many companies use. Paying to host an image of your installer is likewise very cheap. Distributing software via the internet is not complex or expensive in 2020. The point is options are there if not for Apple’s artificial barrier. 30% for distribution has always been too much, but its a ransom that has to be paid because there is no other option. 
     30% for distribution has always been too much, but its a ransom that has to be paid because there is no other option. ”

    YES... There are other options!....
    Options the CEO of Epic Games has decided not to pay... In choosing to pay Apple’s 30%.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 73 of 104
    mrochestermrochester Posts: 700member
    rcfa said:
    Beats said:
    Apple stunting innovation.... What a fu**ing joke.

    Also Epic Games has a monopoly on Epic Games Store.
    No, they don’t. Because if you so choose, you can buy apps e.g. directly from developers or from other app stores.
    On iOS, you can’t.
    I think the point is that you can call almost anything a monopoly when you define the market too narrowly. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 74 of 104
    The biggest advantage of Apple's App Store is that it simplify process all around, not just the purchasing process.  Users can pretty much trust everything in the app store without worry about fraud or scammers.  Before App Store, we spend a lot more time research about the app developer and the payment system and worry about if it was a legitimate company or not.  The old ways favor large developers and large companies.  

    I remember with Microsoft's "Open" platform, when the software does not work, Microsoft, hardware companies, and application companies all point fingers at each other.  

    As an app developer at the time, we often had to support customers who had viruses or hardware problems because the customers don't care who's fault it was, they just wanted the apps to work.
    qwerty52aderutterwatto_cobraFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 75 of 104
    OK, there's a lot to unpack here; Why is it a problem for any platform holder to take cut on a platform they own and maintain? as well as require companies to abide they're platform rules? Is this really an issue? If the question is how much is a given platform holders cut worth then I think that's a slightly different conversation? For example I'm a game developer, and I have shipped titles on pretty much all the platforms (Switch, PS4, Xbox, PC, iOS, Android etc..) , and I can tell you that there are some platform holders who do not do anything for there cut, whereas my experience with apple, with the support and backend they have, there is a big difference in how much and how they re-invest there resources back into the ecosystem and trying to support developers. It's not perfect, but in comparison to all the others out there, its a big difference.

    In my opinion, 30% is a lot, but the question is what do I get from a platform holder taking 30%? Do I think that I am getting 30% worth of platform holder support during and after development?

    I watched the CNBC interview, and there was an interesting line/quote;

    "They are preventing an entire category of businesses and applications from being engulfed in their ecosystem by virtue of excluding competitors from each aspect of their business that they're protecting," Sweeney said of Apple.

    So lets dive into this a little bit more, should macdonalds allow burger king to sell they're (BK) food in mcdonald's retail stores, and allow burger king to use there own payment system? Maybe this is too much of an analogous example? How about this one, would this mean that Epic Game Store, would allow Project xCloud (Microsoft) or EA Origin, Nike Store, Or Netflix on to the Epic Game Store, for free, and allow them to use they're own payments system, and bypass Epic's payment system? 

    "Apple has locked down and crippled the ecosystem by inventing an absolute monopoly on the distribution of software, on the monetization of software," Sweeney said. 

    Epic game store needs approval from epic for you to get in and sell your games, It is not an open store, even though they make it seem like it is, and if you submit a game built with Unreal engine (Epics software) it does not guarantee you access, in fact if you are rejected, a lot of the times you won't know why and they won't give you a reason. And that's if your lucky to get a reply.

    If you've ever used steam you know that it is very open, any one can release anything, but the problem now is that there is a lot of junk, malware, questionable content that drowns out other more justified content. And don't get me started on the piracy. If you email someone from Steam (Valve) as a developer for any question or for help, you'd be lucky to get a reply. Do I think Valve earns there 30%? No. But that's a personal opinion, and I don't know how much it costs to maintain the back end, to make it so  developers do not have to deal with privacy laws in countries, to process the payments on your behalf and transfer it into your account, to share market research with you etc....

    Do I think any platform holder deserves they're % cut? If so, how much do I think they deserve? What is the cost of maintaining the platform? What is the value they bring (Users, awareness, reach, security)?

    So swinging back to Sweeney's comments' based on how epic games conducts its own store, its somewhat hypocritical. 

    So back to the question, is 30% too much of a cut for platform holders? I don't know, any answer I give would be uninformed. 

    Does a platform holder deserve the right to take a cut? Yes. You created the store and platform, in order to maintain it you need to generate revenue from some where and some how. 

    Should platform holders allow other developers and stores on to they're store and let them use what ever payment system they like? Ultimately its there choice, but in my opinion, god no, I hated the early days of having to create unique user ID's for different apps, and having different passwords, and/or payment details etc.... If you look at other digital stores that allow the dev's to have what ever payment scheme/system they want, the trend has always ended up being that the store is too and  fragmented and not beneficial for the user. In fact it potentially becomes harder for the smaller teams to be able to stand out, compete, in the end they sign up or work with a payment, server, provider which ever one is easiest to implement and easy for the users to use as well. A place that grantees security, ease of payment processing, accountability, erm... kind of like what the app store has now.

    As some one quoted above, the iOS app store doesn't qualify as a monopoly (Based on legal definition), It seems as though Sweeney definition of monopoly is that if you have to go through apple to get your game/app onto there store, and that they have rules you need to adhere to in order to qualify for releasing your game/platform on they're store? Isn't this the exact same way the Epic Games Store works? You need to request approval from epic, You have to go through epics server and payment systems, you have to adhere to epics rules when using/releasing onto they're store? 

    Sorry for the long post and if you read so far, thanks! 
    edited July 2020 chiaaderutterwatto_cobraFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 76 of 104
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,813member
    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    Oh for fuck sakes. Developers generate income from developing for Apple, but few have created successful products. That's really the problem.

    Apple built an entire infrastructure for developers that is very, very, good, and better, managed to minimize the number of code instances for the ecosystem, and even then, Apple has made it relatively easy to code for one, and code for all. The fact that there are some 20 million Apple developers worldwide is kind of telling.

    Try doing that for Android OS.

    I mean, WTF, Epic could create its own mobile gaming device based on Android OS, which might be superior to the iPhone, and capture even more profits. Of course, they would have relatively few sales, given the utility of the iPhone.
    qwerty52chiaaderutterwatto_cobra
  • Reply 77 of 104
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,813member
    danvm said:
    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    How do you explain iPhone capturing the high-end smartphone market before there were even third-party apps? Remember, there wasn’t even an App Store yet everyone wanted the Jesus Phone. that’s Apple, not the developers. devs flocked to iPhone because of iPhone. 
    What you said could made sense in the early years of the iPhone, not today.  Do you think that an iPhone with no 3rd party support would be as popular as it is today?  Don't think so.  Apple kept it's popularity for being a great device and because developer support.
    Oh, for fuck sakes, again.

    Apple announced the App Store on July 10, 2008. That's history, not conjecture, and because Apple provided a great environment for developers as well. 
    qwerty52chiawatto_cobra
  • Reply 78 of 104
    elijahg said: So you have thousands of alternative physical outlets for Nintendo or Playstation games. You just invalidated your own argument.
    Can a consumer expect game purchases made at the thousands of competing outlets to generally be cheaper than buying a download from the Playstation store? No. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 79 of 104
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,261member
    qwerty52 said:
    danvm said:
    qwerty52 said:
    qwerty52 said:

    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    No, I will put it so: Because of iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, "Developers" are creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. 
    My iPhone is working perfectly fine with Apple’s only applications. That’s the reason I bought it! And not because I could play eventually some games. This is the first! Then I can go possibly to the AppStore and buy somethings from the developers. But only because I know: It is secur.
    Are you so sure about the point bolded by me?????? Are you really, really serious???? You are fine with NO third party apps like uber/facebook/google maps/twitter/banking/food delivery apps etc???? And do you believe that almost ALL of the 1 billion users of iOS devices think likewise???
    Yes, I am absolutely sure! And I am sure that nobody of that 1 billion users of iOS devices, will buy an iPhone or iPad, only because of apps like Uber/Facebook/Google maps/Twitter...etc!
    It is ridiculous to think, that because I want Facebook app, therefore I will buy an iOS device 
    People buy an iPhone because it is an iPhone. And buying apps is something secondary, individual for each user.
    Apps maybe a secondary reason for you, but for many (individuals and business / enterprises) are as important as the device itself.   Personally, I didn't buy an iPhone because of Uber / Facebook / Google Maps / Twitter, but I would not had buy it if the apps I need were not available.  For example, look what happened to Windows Phone.  Excellent OS for it's time, with no developer support, and it failed  You are wrong if you think developers are not an important part of the iPhone success.  
    I understand what you mean, but you are just confirming  what I am saying.  Windows Phone didn’t make it. Windows Phone didn’t had users.
    That is the reason why all the developers ran away from this platform. Why then the developers didn’t  helped iWindows Phone to become the number one?
    I know, the developers are very, very important for the iOS. But iOS for the developers is it like the theater stage  for the artists and musicians, the place where they can show them self’s and make money .
    Not opposite around. No stage, no performance, no money.
    I posted about Windows because I had one for some months, and although it was very good, even better than the iPhone in some tasks, what you could do with it was limited because the few apps it had.  Customers would not go to a platform where they cannot work, see their social media, play their games or watch their movies / series.  In the beginning what Apple did with the iPhone move customers to purchase it, and developers followed.  But today is a different story.  Suppose that Apple close the App Store and block 3rd party apps.  Don't you think sales will drop drastically?  I think so, specially when you consider that Apple don't have a dominant app or service.  I don't think most people would buy a device that only can use Apple Apps and services.  As today, Facebook and Twitter control social media.  MS is the leader in business and enterprise with MS Office and Microsoft 365 cloud services.  Google is miles ahead of iCloud, Maps and other Apple services.  And Neflix and Spotify lead in streaming movies / series and music.  These are some of the services most people use in their devices, including iPhone.  And there are other essentials, as banks and local news apps.  Just remove the apps I mentioned, and I'm sure sales will slow down.  Following your comparison, customers pay to go to the theater to see the musician.  They will not pay just to sit in an empty theater, with no artist.  
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 80 of 104
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,261member
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    danvm said:
    sflocal said:
    Developers that whine about this policies really chaff my backside.  Absolute the most selfish, greedy, entitled people around.  Apple does all the work creating a groundbreaking new product, getting a loyal - and profitable - user base, and created an ecosystem that allows anyone to develop software and have access to hundreds of millions of users at MINIMAL cost.
    Don't think that developers deserve some praise for the success of iOS / iPadOS devices?

    Those users are Apple's users, not yours.  It's Apple's product, and their ecosystem.  Not yours.  You obviously were too young (or ignorant) about how us developers had to develop/market/sell/charge for software back in the pre-iPhone days.  Otherwise, you'd be thanking Apple for taking "only" 30%.  

    The reality is, Android is a mess, piracy and IP theft is rampant, and security is non-existent, and these blowholes want to force Apple to adopt such a system?  Good luck.
    You are wrong here.  User / customers are shared between Apple and the developer.  What Apple has in their App Store is hard work from developers too, doesn't matter if it's inside the Apple ecosystem.  Maybe it's an Apple's device, but it's the developer app.
    Absolutely spot on. iPhones are ruling the high-end smartphone market, because of "Developers" creating high quality apps for the iOS platform. Their contribution CANNOT be washed away by anyone making silly claims.
    How do you explain iPhone capturing the high-end smartphone market before there were even third-party apps? Remember, there wasn’t even an App Store yet everyone wanted the Jesus Phone. that’s Apple, not the developers. devs flocked to iPhone because of iPhone. 
    What you said could made sense in the early years of the iPhone, not today.  Do you think that an iPhone with no 3rd party support would be as popular as it is today?  Don't think so.  Apple kept it's popularity for being a great device and because developer support.
    Oh, for fuck sakes, again.

    Apple announced the App Store on July 10, 2008. That's history, not conjecture, and because Apple provided a great environment for developers as well. 
    Agree, Apple provided an excellent environment.  But developers payback with excellent apps.  Both are the reason the iPhone still successful today, not just Apple.  
    muthuk_vanalingam
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