HomePod family will support Apple Music Lossless eventually

Posted:
in iPod + iTunes + AppleTV edited May 22
The HomePod and HomePod mini won't play Apple Music Lossless audio at launch, but will at a later time, according to a support page update providing details on the streaming music feature's functionality.

The HomePod mini (left) and the HomePod
The HomePod mini (left) and the HomePod


Apple's unveiling of Apple Music Lossless and Spatial audio on Monday, a feature that will provide high-fidelity versions of tracks to subscribers instead of the standard-bitrate versions streamed as standard. To clarify some of the questions surrounding the support of its own products, Apple updated a support page on Saturday to offer more insight.

The frequently asked questions section on the "About lossless audio in Apple Music" page mentions that neither the HomePod nor HomePod mini will work with Lossless at launch. According to the page, the two smart speakers "currently use AAC to ensure excellent audio quality."

However, while neither speaker will play the high-bitrate feeds at the start, Apple says "support for lossless is coming in a future software update."

Apple also provides a little bit of clarity on the AirPods Max situation. While it was confirmed at launch that the AirPods Max won't support Apple Music Lossless over Lightning, Apple explains it's down to how the connection works.

In its explanation, Apple says the Lightning to 3.5mm Audio Cable was designed to allow AirPods Max to "connect to analog sources for listening to movies and music." While AirPods Max can be connected to devices playing Lossless and Hi-Res Lossless recordings and enjoy "exceptional audio quality" in this way, the analog-to-digital conversion in the cable means "the playback will not be completely lossless."

Previously, it was found that Android users will be able to enjoy Apple Music Lossless, but not Spatial audio. Though AirPods naturally don't have the capability to use Lossless over wireless connections, Apple is said to be developing its own proprietary high-fidelity audio format to enable the feature.

Stay on top of all Apple news right from your HomePod. Say, "Hey, Siri, play AppleInsider," and you'll get latest AppleInsider Podcast. Or ask your HomePod mini for "AppleInsider Daily" instead and you'll hear a fast update direct from our news team. And, if you're interested in Apple-centric home automation, say "Hey, Siri, play HomeKit Insider," and you'll be listening to our newest specialized podcast in moments.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 33
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,184member
    It’s a typo, I’m sure, but on the linked Apple support page, under “How to listen to lossless on your Apple TV 4K,” it says you should first “update your Apple TV 4K to tvOS 11.4.”

    We’ve had lossless for years and didn’t even know it!
    Apple-a-day
  • Reply 2 of 33
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,259administrator
    AppleZulu said:
    It’s a typo, I’m sure, but on the linked Apple support page, under “How to listen to lossless on your Apple TV 4K,” it says you should first “update your Apple TV 4K to tvOS 11.4.”

    We’ve had lossless for years and didn’t even know it!
    This has just been a spectacular own-goal from Apple from the jump. The Bluetooth lack of support for Apple Music Lossless wasn't a giant surprise, but the messaging surrounding it all has been replete with holes, wrong information, and modifications for the last five days.
    Apple-a-daycanukstormsdw2001elijahgmuthuk_vanalingamjahblade
  • Reply 3 of 33
    mobirdmobird Posts: 621member
    The original HomePods are going to have more features as a discontinued product...
    Features that should have been baked in from it's initial release.
    I appreciate these and completely unexpected after the "discontinued" announcement.
    It is almost as if Apple is loading up the original HomePods with these and maybe some additional features if hardware/software capabilities exist, rethinking the original HomePods use cases and ultimately announcing the Homepod Pro with external ports and a price reduction...
    Thanks !!
    edited May 22 williamlondonScot1caladanianelijahgjahblade
  • Reply 4 of 33
    JapheyJaphey Posts: 832member
    AppleZulu said:
    It’s a typo, I’m sure, but on the linked Apple support page, under “How to listen to lossless on your Apple TV 4K,” it says you should first “update your Apple TV 4K to tvOS 11.4.”

    We’ve had lossless for years and didn’t even know it!
    This has just been a spectacular own-goal from Apple from the jump. The Bluetooth lack of support for Apple Music Lossless wasn't a giant surprise, but the messaging surrounding it all has been replete with holes, wrong information, and modifications for the last five days.
    An “own-goal” is a great way to put it. Some of Apple’s moves the last few months have defied logic. I mean, why even announce lossless until it was supported by the audio lineup? I don’t own a HomePod, but if I did I would be pretty pissed off right now. I’m really hoping WWDC will bring some unexpected new hardware announcements that will make sense of these seemingly erratic decisions. 
    edited May 22 williamlondonelijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 5 of 33
    danoxdanox Posts: 599member
    Japhey said:
    AppleZulu said:
    It’s a typo, I’m sure, but on the linked Apple support page, under “How to listen to lossless on your Apple TV 4K,” it says you should first “update your Apple TV 4K to tvOS 11.4.”

    We’ve had lossless for years and didn’t even know it!
    This has just been a spectacular own-goal from Apple from the jump. The Bluetooth lack of support for Apple Music Lossless wasn't a giant surprise, but the messaging surrounding it all has been replete with holes, wrong information, and modifications for the last five days.
    An “own-goal” is a great way to put it. Some of Apple’s moves the last few months have defied logic. I mean, why even announce lossless until it was supported by the audio lineup? I don’t own a HomePod, but if I did I would be pretty pissed off right now. I’m really hoping WWDC will bring some unexpected new hardware announcements that will make sense of these seemingly erratic decisions. 

    The HomePod having wired in and out audio connections would have made all the difference (future proofed it), a great many more people would have bought the HomePod.
    Scot1caladanianelijahg
  • Reply 6 of 33
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,532member
    Japhey said:
    AppleZulu said:
    It’s a typo, I’m sure, but on the linked Apple support page, under “How to listen to lossless on your Apple TV 4K,” it says you should first “update your Apple TV 4K to tvOS 11.4.”

    We’ve had lossless for years and didn’t even know it!
    This has just been a spectacular own-goal from Apple from the jump. The Bluetooth lack of support for Apple Music Lossless wasn't a giant surprise, but the messaging surrounding it all has been replete with holes, wrong information, and modifications for the last five days.
    An “own-goal” is a great way to put it. Some of Apple’s moves the last few months have defied logic. I mean, why even announce lossless until it was supported by the audio lineup? I don’t own a HomePod, but if I did I would be pretty pissed off right now. I’m really hoping WWDC will bring some unexpected new hardware announcements that will make sense of these seemingly erratic decisions. 
    Because there's a lot of non-Apple audio gear that does support lossless and hi-res lossless.  For the audiophile that is into this type of gear, why keep them waiting from enjoying this new Apple Music feature?
    williamlondon
  • Reply 7 of 33
    JapheyJaphey Posts: 832member
    Japhey said:
    AppleZulu said:
    It’s a typo, I’m sure, but on the linked Apple support page, under “How to listen to lossless on your Apple TV 4K,” it says you should first “update your Apple TV 4K to tvOS 11.4.”

    We’ve had lossless for years and didn’t even know it!
    This has just been a spectacular own-goal from Apple from the jump. The Bluetooth lack of support for Apple Music Lossless wasn't a giant surprise, but the messaging surrounding it all has been replete with holes, wrong information, and modifications for the last five days.
    An “own-goal” is a great way to put it. Some of Apple’s moves the last few months have defied logic. I mean, why even announce lossless until it was supported by the audio lineup? I don’t own a HomePod, but if I did I would be pretty pissed off right now. I’m really hoping WWDC will bring some unexpected new hardware announcements that will make sense of these seemingly erratic decisions. 
    Because there's a lot of non-Apple audio gear that does support lossless and hi-res lossless.  For the audiophile that is into this type of gear, why keep them waiting from enjoying this new Apple Music feature?
    To avoid alienating the customers who spent $300 - $550 on first party gear? Isn’t that obvious? Those are the people Apple should be courting first, not the non-Apple audiophile. 
    mazda 3swilliamlondon
  • Reply 8 of 33
    thedbathedba Posts: 652member
    Japhey said:
    AppleZulu said:
    It’s a typo, I’m sure, but on the linked Apple support page, under “How to listen to lossless on your Apple TV 4K,” it says you should first “update your Apple TV 4K to tvOS 11.4.”

    We’ve had lossless for years and didn’t even know it!
    This has just been a spectacular own-goal from Apple from the jump. The Bluetooth lack of support for Apple Music Lossless wasn't a giant surprise, but the messaging surrounding it all has been replete with holes, wrong information, and modifications for the last five days.
    An “own-goal” is a great way to put it. Some of Apple’s moves the last few months have defied logic. I mean, why even announce lossless until it was supported by the audio lineup? I don’t own a HomePod, but if I did I would be pretty pissed off right now. I’m really hoping WWDC will bring some unexpected new hardware announcements that will make sense of these seemingly erratic decisions. 
    I happen to own 2 of them (the original). 
    When I bought them, it’s because my existing equipment was far inferior to what Apple offered. So being in the ecosystem, I bought one and little later bought a second. Now, three years later, I’m still enjoying their output. The fact that they may support lossless audio in the near future is just a cherry on the sundae.
    Scot1williamlondonMacProspock1234jahblade
  • Reply 9 of 33
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,670member
    Japhey said:
    AppleZulu said:
    It’s a typo, I’m sure, but on the linked Apple support page, under “How to listen to lossless on your Apple TV 4K,” it says you should first “update your Apple TV 4K to tvOS 11.4.”

    We’ve had lossless for years and didn’t even know it!
    This has just been a spectacular own-goal from Apple from the jump. The Bluetooth lack of support for Apple Music Lossless wasn't a giant surprise, but the messaging surrounding it all has been replete with holes, wrong information, and modifications for the last five days.
    An “own-goal” is a great way to put it. Some of Apple’s moves the last few months have defied logic. I mean, why even announce lossless until it was supported by the audio lineup? I don’t own a HomePod, but if I did I would be pretty pissed off right now. I’m really hoping WWDC will bring some unexpected new hardware announcements that will make sense of these seemingly erratic decisions. 
    Because there's a lot of non-Apple audio gear that does support lossless and hi-res lossless.  For the audiophile that is into this type of gear, why keep them waiting from enjoying this new Apple Music feature?
    That’s true, but I think this is more of a marketing ploy.  Most people don’t know that they won’t be able to discern the difference between 256k and lossless unless they have great ears *and* great equipment.  I don’t mean a nice home theater setup, either.  I mean pre-amp, amp, DAC and speakers costing five figures.  Or a pair of wired $1000+ headphones with a really good source.  
    williamlondon
  • Reply 10 of 33
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,251member
    I agree that Apple has botched this rollout, but for anyone who’s mad right now, AI had an article a few days ago describing how to see if lossless even matters for you. I suggest you read that article and use the site they link to to test your ears and equipment. I’m guessing pretty much everyone will discover they can’t tell the difference anyway. 

    williamlondonmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 11 of 33
    thedbathedba Posts: 652member
    Japhey said:
    Japhey said:
    AppleZulu said:
    It’s a typo, I’m sure, but on the linked Apple support page, under “How to listen to lossless on your Apple TV 4K,” it says you should first “update your Apple TV 4K to tvOS 11.4.”

    We’ve had lossless for years and didn’t even know it!
    This has just been a spectacular own-goal from Apple from the jump. The Bluetooth lack of support for Apple Music Lossless wasn't a giant surprise, but the messaging surrounding it all has been replete with holes, wrong information, and modifications for the last five days.
    An “own-goal” is a great way to put it. Some of Apple’s moves the last few months have defied logic. I mean, why even announce lossless until it was supported by the audio lineup? I don’t own a HomePod, but if I did I would be pretty pissed off right now. I’m really hoping WWDC will bring some unexpected new hardware announcements that will make sense of these seemingly erratic decisions. 
    Because there's a lot of non-Apple audio gear that does support lossless and hi-res lossless.  For the audiophile that is into this type of gear, why keep them waiting from enjoying this new Apple Music feature?
    To avoid alienating the customers who spent $300 - $550 on first party gear? Isn’t that obvious? Those are the people Apple should be courting first, not the non-Apple audiophile. 
    Looking at Apple’s financials, one can clearly see that the services category is in 2nd place in terms of revenue and far ahead of the wearables and home accessory category (includes Apple Watch, AirPods,HomePods).
    Reinforcing the services sector without taking anything away from the wearable/home sector, doesn’t qualify IMO as alienating.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/382260/segments-share-revenue-of-apple/ 
    saldogwilliamlondon
  • Reply 12 of 33
    saldogsaldog Posts: 47member
    AppleZulu said:
    It’s a typo, I’m sure, but on the linked Apple support page, under “How to listen to lossless on your Apple TV 4K,” it says you should first “update your Apple TV 4K to tvOS 11.4.”

    We’ve had lossless for years and didn’t even know it!
    Not a typo. It's easy for ATV to support LL because it doesn't need to convert the digital signal to analog. The audio out is via HDMI, a digital format. The heavy lifting will be by the device that plays back the signal over HDMI. Your TV or receiver will have the DAC/AMP needed and the quality of the audio will be completely dependent on that and the loudspeakers. So, yes, you have had LL capability for years.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 13 of 33
    saldogsaldog Posts: 47member
    Some Apple fans don't pay much attention to the entire streaming music landscape. Apple is fighting to stay relevant and must evolve its product to keep its installed base and grow it. Spotify, Amazon, Tidal, Qobuz, and others are offering higher quality music so this was no surprise at all. What is a bit of a surprise is that Apple is offering it at no extra charge. Amazon was charging extra for their HD stream but two days after Apple announced theirs, Amazon sent an email out to customers with a link to switch to HD for free.

    I get it that many people out there didn't really understand that Bluetooth is the limitation here. They don't understand digital vs analog and what a DAC is and so forth. But once you do understand everything that goes into streaming an audio file and playing it back over the ultimate analog device, your speakers/headphones, you can see that Apple had to make tough decisions. Like not having a true analog input, requiring a fidelity-mangling ADC before any of the "magic" can be done in computational audio, which is all digital.

    Apple could have just invented its own standard for wireless music transmission. Of course, they'd be criticized for not using an accepted standard like Bluetooth. There's no escaping criticism no matter what they do. They may actually be working on a new protocol utilizing either the U1 or H1 chips that would augment Bluetooth and make up for its lack of bandwidth, but there will be a limit, barely allowing Lossless but no more, so forget about ever playing back Hi-Res over your current wireless product. Getting full CD-quality would be a nice jump over others, like Sony.

    But this move to support Lossless and High-Resolution was completely expected, logical, and welcome by many people who listen to music over external hardware. Not just audiophiles but just about anyone that owns an AV receiver, for example, taking an HDMI input from an Apple TV. I'm sure that Sonos users will also welcome this.

    Lastly, you probably wouldn't hear much difference between AAC 256Kbps and Lossless anyway over a HomePod mini or Airpods Pro or most of the Beats phones other than the Beats Pro (wired). Perhaps you could hear an improvement with AirPods Max. But if you really cared about sound quality, you wouldn't be using any of these and instead would have a DAC/Amp and high-quality analog headphones. That would be a night and day improvement. Yes, even if you spent the same money as a pair of AirPods Max headphones.
    mobirdMplsPwilliamlondon
  • Reply 14 of 33
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,532member
    saldog said:
    Some Apple fans don't pay much attention to the entire streaming music landscape. Apple is fighting to stay relevant and must evolve its product to keep its installed base and grow it. Spotify, Amazon, Tidal, Qobuz, and others are offering higher quality music so this was no surprise at all. What is a bit of a surprise is that Apple is offering it at no extra charge. Amazon was charging extra for their HD stream but two days after Apple announced theirs, Amazon sent an email out to customers with a link to switch to HD for free.

    I get it that many people out there didn't really understand that Bluetooth is the limitation here. They don't understand digital vs analog and what a DAC is and so forth. But once you do understand everything that goes into streaming an audio file and playing it back over the ultimate analog device, your speakers/headphones, you can see that Apple had to make tough decisions. Like not having a true analog input, requiring a fidelity-mangling ADC before any of the "magic" can be done in computational audio, which is all digital.

    Apple could have just invented its own standard for wireless music transmission. Of course, they'd be criticized for not using an accepted standard like Bluetooth. There's no escaping criticism no matter what they do. They may actually be working on a new protocol utilizing either the U1 or H1 chips that would augment Bluetooth and make up for its lack of bandwidth, but there will be a limit, barely allowing Lossless but no more, so forget about ever playing back Hi-Res over your current wireless product. Getting full CD-quality would be a nice jump over others, like Sony.

    But this move to support Lossless and High-Resolution was completely expected, logical, and welcome by many people who listen to music over external hardware. Not just audiophiles but just about anyone that owns an AV receiver, for example, taking an HDMI input from an Apple TV. I'm sure that Sonos users will also welcome this.

    Lastly, you probably wouldn't hear much difference between AAC 256Kbps and Lossless anyway over a HomePod mini or Airpods Pro or most of the Beats phones other than the Beats Pro (wired). Perhaps you could hear an improvement with AirPods Max. But if you really cared about sound quality, you wouldn't be using any of these and instead would have a DAC/Amp and high-quality analog headphones. That would be a night and day improvement. Yes, even if you spent the same money as a pair of AirPods Max headphones.
    Well said. 

    "Apple could have just invented its own standard for wireless music transmission." => I genuinely think this is what Apple is going to do with a future H1 / W1 chip; develop their own wireless radio or protocol that sits atop Bluetooth.  Only "downside" is it will require new hardware.  If I'm correct, I don't think the current AirPods Pro or Max can be updated to support Lossless.
  • Reply 15 of 33
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,184member
    AppleZulu said:
    It’s a typo, I’m sure, but on the linked Apple support page, under “How to listen to lossless on your Apple TV 4K,” it says you should first “update your Apple TV 4K to tvOS 11.4.”

    We’ve had lossless for years and didn’t even know it!
    This has just been a spectacular own-goal from Apple from the jump. The Bluetooth lack of support for Apple Music Lossless wasn't a giant surprise, but the messaging surrounding it all has been replete with holes, wrong information, and modifications for the last five days.
    To me the interesting part is that it’s actually  the Atmos/surround sound thing that’s the important part. You can debate what people can and can’t hear of lossless audio, but in the end, it’s going to be an incremental thing that most people won’t care that much about. 

    When people start hearing surround audio in their earbuds, however, they’re going to be blown away. That’s the thing that will impress, and their existing hardware will already play that. Others have already entered that market but have done a truly miserable job with apps and UI implementation. Hopefully Apple will avoid the stumbles the others have had and hit their mark on that part in June. If so, the rest of it will follow and be of secondary concern to most people. 
    edited May 22 williamlondonthedbaMacProjahblade
  • Reply 16 of 33
    jeff fieldsjeff fields Posts: 124member
    danox said:
    Japhey said:
    AppleZulu said:
    It’s a typo, I’m sure, but on the linked Apple support page, under “How to listen to lossless on your Apple TV 4K,” it says you should first “update your Apple TV 4K to tvOS 11.4.”

    We’ve had lossless for years and didn’t even know it!
    This has just been a spectacular own-goal from Apple from the jump. The Bluetooth lack of support for Apple Music Lossless wasn't a giant surprise, but the messaging surrounding it all has been replete with holes, wrong information, and modifications for the last five days.
    An “own-goal” is a great way to put it. Some of Apple’s moves the last few months have defied logic. I mean, why even announce lossless until it was supported by the audio lineup? I don’t own a HomePod, but if I did I would be pretty pissed off right now. I’m really hoping WWDC will bring some unexpected new hardware announcements that will make sense of these seemingly erratic decisions. 

    The HomePod having wired in and out audio connections would have made all the difference (future proofed it), a great many more people would have bought the HomePod.
    You might want to double-check your comprehension of the concept of "future-proofing". Just as a hint, it does not involve integrating more legacy support for technologies that will be used less and less in the future.
    williamlondonjibjahblade
  • Reply 17 of 33
    AppleishAppleish Posts: 366member
    Holy crap. In my decades of being an Apple customer, I cannot remember a bigger fiasco than this. And the product even isn’t on the market yet!

    How many more ‘er…uh…’ support documents will they scratch out before the unnamed date in ’June?’
    edited May 23 williamlondonelijahg
  • Reply 18 of 33
    Appleish said:
    Holy crap. In my decades of being an Apple customer, I cannot remember a bigger fiasco than this. And the product even isn’t on the market yet!

    How many more ‘er…uh…’ support documents will they scratch out before the unnamed date in ’June?’
    Fiasco? Hyperbole much?!

    A fiasco is something along the line of the launch of the folding Samesung phone, or the launch of the exploding Samesung phones. Those were fiascos. This is nothing such, but don't let ridiculous exaggeration stand in your way of making a Chicken Little characterisation.
    spock1234roundaboutnow
  • Reply 19 of 33
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,901member
    saldog said:
    Some Apple fans don't pay much attention to the entire streaming music landscape. Apple is fighting to stay relevant and must evolve its product to keep its installed base and grow it. Spotify, Amazon, Tidal, Qobuz, and others are offering higher quality music so this was no surprise at all. What is a bit of a surprise is that Apple is offering it at no extra charge. Amazon was charging extra for their HD stream but two days after Apple announced theirs, Amazon sent an email out to customers with a link to switch to HD for free.

    I get it that many people out there didn't really understand that Bluetooth is the limitation here. They don't understand digital vs analog and what a DAC is and so forth. But once you do understand everything that goes into streaming an audio file and playing it back over the ultimate analog device, your speakers/headphones, you can see that Apple had to make tough decisions. Like not having a true analog input, requiring a fidelity-mangling ADC before any of the "magic" can be done in computational audio, which is all digital.

    Apple could have just invented its own standard for wireless music transmission. Of course, they'd be criticized for not using an accepted standard like Bluetooth. There's no escaping criticism no matter what they do. They may actually be working on a new protocol utilizing either the U1 or H1 chips that would augment Bluetooth and make up for its lack of bandwidth, but there will be a limit, barely allowing Lossless but no more, so forget about ever playing back Hi-Res over your current wireless product. Getting full CD-quality would be a nice jump over others, like Sony.

    But this move to support Lossless and High-Resolution was completely expected, logical, and welcome by many people who listen to music over external hardware. Not just audiophiles but just about anyone that owns an AV receiver, for example, taking an HDMI input from an Apple TV. I'm sure that Sonos users will also welcome this.

    Lastly, you probably wouldn't hear much difference between AAC 256Kbps and Lossless anyway over a HomePod mini or Airpods Pro or most of the Beats phones other than the Beats Pro (wired). Perhaps you could hear an improvement with AirPods Max. But if you really cared about sound quality, you wouldn't be using any of these and instead would have a DAC/Amp and high-quality analog headphones. That would be a night and day improvement. Yes, even if you spent the same money as a pair of AirPods Max headphones.
    Well said. 

    "Apple could have just invented its own standard for wireless music transmission." => I genuinely think this is what Apple is going to do with a future H1 / W1 chip; develop their own wireless radio or protocol that sits atop Bluetooth.  Only "downside" is it will require new hardware.  If I'm correct, I don't think the current AirPods Pro or Max can be updated to support Lossless.
    This would be entirely feasible and competitors have actually already done this.

    As long as the new hardware gets BT/WiFi certification there is no real problem.

    Other advantages should include lower latency, more efficient power use and including other hardware features on the chipset.

    https://es.gearbest.com/blog/how-to/what-is-huawei-kirin-a1-chip-and-how-powerful-is-it-8529
  • Reply 20 of 33
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,380member
    AppleZulu said:
    AppleZulu said:
    It’s a typo, I’m sure, but on the linked Apple support page, under “How to listen to lossless on your Apple TV 4K,” it says you should first “update your Apple TV 4K to tvOS 11.4.”

    We’ve had lossless for years and didn’t even know it!
    This has just been a spectacular own-goal from Apple from the jump. The Bluetooth lack of support for Apple Music Lossless wasn't a giant surprise, but the messaging surrounding it all has been replete with holes, wrong information, and modifications for the last five days.
    To me the interesting part is that it’s actually  the Atmos/surround sound thing that’s the important part. You can debate what people can and can’t hear of lossless audio, but in the end, it’s going to be an incremental thing that most people won’t care that much about. 

    When people start hearing surround audio in their earbuds, however, they’re going to be blown away. That’s the thing that will impress, and their existing hardware will already play that. Others have already entered that market but have done a truly miserable job with apps and UI implementation. Hopefully Apple will avoid the stumbles the others have had and hit their mark on that part in June. If so, the rest of it will follow and be of secondary concern to most people. 
    I agree with you 100%.
    williamlondonjahblade
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