Not sure how China can "give up" Taiwan when they exhibit no control over it at all.
Thank you! It's pointless trying to reason with dunces. They're consuming from the CCP trough and nothing will convince them otherwise. Not wasting my time any further.
It's called the trough of reality. The only group who sees it your way are the China Haters. The rest of the world sees Taiwan as an autonomous region of China. Not even the U.S. government (even under Trump) considers Taiwan an independent country.
We have tried your nation building under the "Democracy, Freedom and Independence" mantra how many times now? And how many times did it work? And how many times did thousands of Americans die before we gave up? And you want to do that again? As the saying goes: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
I don’t think the term “nation building” means what you think it means. Without even getting into the merits or dangers of getting involved in helping Taiwan assert its independence, whatever unholy mess that conflict would be, one thing it wouldn’t be is “nation building.”
The only thing Taiwan lacks in being a “nation” is full international diplomatic recognition. Taiwan does not need anyone to come in to help them create political structure and government organizations, or to create a police or military force, or to build infrastructure, or create schools, or any of the things involved in “nation building.”
If, in some fantasy scenario, the PRC dropped their claims on Taiwan this morning, Taiwan would be a “nation” by tea time, with no “nation building” needed.
LOL... So, i don;t understand what "nation building" means?
What you guys are attempting to do is the epitome of nation building: Create a nation where none previously existed (despite your delusions that Taiwan has always been an independent nation).
And, it rests on the notion that the U.S. is able to dictate to the rest of the world how it will act, behave and think.
We should have learned that we are neither the saviors of the world as well as the limitations of our power and resources long ago. We just got slapped in the face with that reality -- again -- but some people are slow learners.
How many Americans should die trying (in vain) to "liberate" Taiwan? How many are you willing to sacrifice?
Or, are you just plan to continue the tough-guy talk until China has had enough of it and moves in -- and then walk away from yet another people who trusted us to defend them? You know, like the Kurds or the Afghans.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
There is no plan to spend American lives in liberating Taiwan, Taiwan doesn't need to be liberated! It already is independent. No one is creating a nation out of Taiwan because Taiwan is already a nation in just about every way that counts apart from formal recognition, and very few people are saying that there's any need for that to change.
The only one creating any ruckus here is you.
Do you really understand the English word independent? Can Taiwan defend by itself?
Why does Taiwan need to defend itself? It has a bigger army relative to population than lots of other independent nations around the world, so it can defend itself better than most, all other things being equal.
Every time before Taiwan holds a presidential equation, the government will send a delegation to US to hold talks with US officials. If it is really independent, why does it need US approval of the candidate?
You really need to post a reliable source for that. Mr. PRC.
I'll wait...
Can you read Chinese?
Can you?
Of course you can.
Sounds as if you don't have a reliable source...
He's posting to straight propaganda to increase his bounty from the CCP bosses. .50C per post isn't a lot!
My source is from Taiwanese news media. George is right! You are afraid of facts.
Maybe we can all rest a bit easier then, because if the PRC are willing to throw money away on this kind of half-assed crappy trolling then they're not nearly as smart as we've all been lead to believe.
Nonsense! Why do you think my facts are so important?
It is very difficult to find because Taiwan does not want this kind of news to be widely known. So it is a lone news. But I will keep searching.
Don't waste your time.
Even after you post the article, it will not change a thing
I fail to see how you can say this for certain given that you've never posted a link to back up anything you've said ever. Proof is anathema in the PRC-club.
You did not provide any link. And TMay only provided links from western propaganda and are not trustable.
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
Not sure how China can "give up" Taiwan when they exhibit no control over it at all.
Thank you! It's pointless trying to reason with dunces. They're consuming from the CCP trough and nothing will convince them otherwise. Not wasting my time any further.
It's called the trough of reality. The only group who sees it your way are the China Haters. The rest of the world sees Taiwan as an autonomous region of China. Not even the U.S. government (even under Trump) considers Taiwan an independent country.
We have tried your nation building under the "Democracy, Freedom and Independence" mantra how many times now? And how many times did it work? And how many times did thousands of Americans die before we gave up? And you want to do that again? As the saying goes: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
I don’t think the term “nation building” means what you think it means. Without even getting into the merits or dangers of getting involved in helping Taiwan assert its independence, whatever unholy mess that conflict would be, one thing it wouldn’t be is “nation building.”
The only thing Taiwan lacks in being a “nation” is full international diplomatic recognition. Taiwan does not need anyone to come in to help them create political structure and government organizations, or to create a police or military force, or to build infrastructure, or create schools, or any of the things involved in “nation building.”
If, in some fantasy scenario, the PRC dropped their claims on Taiwan this morning, Taiwan would be a “nation” by tea time, with no “nation building” needed.
LOL... So, i don;t understand what "nation building" means?
What you guys are attempting to do is the epitome of nation building: Create a nation where none previously existed (despite your delusions that Taiwan has always been an independent nation).
And, it rests on the notion that the U.S. is able to dictate to the rest of the world how it will act, behave and think.
We should have learned that we are neither the saviors of the world as well as the limitations of our power and resources long ago. We just got slapped in the face with that reality -- again -- but some people are slow learners.
How many Americans should die trying (in vain) to "liberate" Taiwan? How many are you willing to sacrifice?
Or, are you just plan to continue the tough-guy talk until China has had enough of it and moves in -- and then walk away from yet another people who trusted us to defend them? You know, like the Kurds or the Afghans.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
There is no plan to spend American lives in liberating Taiwan, Taiwan doesn't need to be liberated! It already is independent. No one is creating a nation out of Taiwan because Taiwan is already a nation in just about every way that counts apart from formal recognition, and very few people are saying that there's any need for that to change.
The only one creating any ruckus here is you.
Do you really understand the English word independent? Can Taiwan defend by itself?
Why does Taiwan need to defend itself? It has a bigger army relative to population than lots of other independent nations around the world, so it can defend itself better than most, all other things being equal.
Every time before Taiwan holds a presidential equation, the government will send a delegation to US to hold talks with US officials. If it is really independent, why does it need US approval of the candidate?
You really need to post a reliable source for that. Mr. PRC.
I'll wait...
Can you read Chinese?
Can you?
Of course you can.
Sounds as if you don't have a reliable source...
He's posting to straight propaganda to increase his bounty from the CCP bosses. .50C per post isn't a lot!
My source is from Taiwanese news media. George is right! You are afraid of facts.
Maybe we can all rest a bit easier then, because if the PRC are willing to throw money away on this kind of half-assed crappy trolling then they're not nearly as smart as we've all been lead to believe.
Nonsense! Why do you think my facts are so important?
It is very difficult to find because Taiwan does not want this kind of news to be widely known. So it is a lone news. But I will keep searching.
Don't waste your time.
Even after you post the article, it will not change a thing
I fail to see how you can say this for certain given that you've never posted a link to back up anything you've said ever. Proof is anathema in the PRC-club.
You did not provide any link. And TMay only provided links from western propaganda and are not trustable.
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
Not sure how China can "give up" Taiwan when they exhibit no control over it at all.
Thank you! It's pointless trying to reason with dunces. They're consuming from the CCP trough and nothing will convince them otherwise. Not wasting my time any further.
It's called the trough of reality. The only group who sees it your way are the China Haters. The rest of the world sees Taiwan as an autonomous region of China. Not even the U.S. government (even under Trump) considers Taiwan an independent country.
We have tried your nation building under the "Democracy, Freedom and Independence" mantra how many times now? And how many times did it work? And how many times did thousands of Americans die before we gave up? And you want to do that again? As the saying goes: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
I don’t think the term “nation building” means what you think it means. Without even getting into the merits or dangers of getting involved in helping Taiwan assert its independence, whatever unholy mess that conflict would be, one thing it wouldn’t be is “nation building.”
The only thing Taiwan lacks in being a “nation” is full international diplomatic recognition. Taiwan does not need anyone to come in to help them create political structure and government organizations, or to create a police or military force, or to build infrastructure, or create schools, or any of the things involved in “nation building.”
If, in some fantasy scenario, the PRC dropped their claims on Taiwan this morning, Taiwan would be a “nation” by tea time, with no “nation building” needed.
LOL... So, i don;t understand what "nation building" means?
What you guys are attempting to do is the epitome of nation building: Create a nation where none previously existed (despite your delusions that Taiwan has always been an independent nation).
And, it rests on the notion that the U.S. is able to dictate to the rest of the world how it will act, behave and think.
We should have learned that we are neither the saviors of the world as well as the limitations of our power and resources long ago. We just got slapped in the face with that reality -- again -- but some people are slow learners.
How many Americans should die trying (in vain) to "liberate" Taiwan? How many are you willing to sacrifice?
Or, are you just plan to continue the tough-guy talk until China has had enough of it and moves in -- and then walk away from yet another people who trusted us to defend them? You know, like the Kurds or the Afghans.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
There is no plan to spend American lives in liberating Taiwan, Taiwan doesn't need to be liberated! It already is independent. No one is creating a nation out of Taiwan because Taiwan is already a nation in just about every way that counts apart from formal recognition, and very few people are saying that there's any need for that to change.
The only one creating any ruckus here is you.
Do you really understand the English word independent? Can Taiwan defend by itself?
Why does Taiwan need to defend itself? It has a bigger army relative to population than lots of other independent nations around the world, so it can defend itself better than most, all other things being equal.
Every time before Taiwan holds a presidential equation, the government will send a delegation to US to hold talks with US officials. If it is really independent, why does it need US approval of the candidate?
You really need to post a reliable source for that. Mr. PRC.
I'll wait...
Can you read Chinese?
Can you?
Of course you can.
Sounds as if you don't have a reliable source...
He's posting to straight propaganda to increase his bounty from the CCP bosses. .50C per post isn't a lot!
My source is from Taiwanese news media. George is right! You are afraid of facts.
Maybe we can all rest a bit easier then, because if the PRC are willing to throw money away on this kind of half-assed crappy trolling then they're not nearly as smart as we've all been lead to believe.
Nonsense! Why do you think my facts are so important?
It is very difficult to find because Taiwan does not want this kind of news to be widely known. So it is a lone news. But I will keep searching.
Don't waste your time.
Even after you post the article, it will not change a thing
I fail to see how you can say this for certain given that you've never posted a link to back up anything you've said ever. Proof is anathema in the PRC-club.
You did not provide any link. And TMay only provided links from western propaganda and are not trustable.
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
Not sure how China can "give up" Taiwan when they exhibit no control over it at all.
Thank you! It's pointless trying to reason with dunces. They're consuming from the CCP trough and nothing will convince them otherwise. Not wasting my time any further.
It's called the trough of reality. The only group who sees it your way are the China Haters. The rest of the world sees Taiwan as an autonomous region of China. Not even the U.S. government (even under Trump) considers Taiwan an independent country.
We have tried your nation building under the "Democracy, Freedom and Independence" mantra how many times now? And how many times did it work? And how many times did thousands of Americans die before we gave up? And you want to do that again? As the saying goes: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
I don’t think the term “nation building” means what you think it means. Without even getting into the merits or dangers of getting involved in helping Taiwan assert its independence, whatever unholy mess that conflict would be, one thing it wouldn’t be is “nation building.”
The only thing Taiwan lacks in being a “nation” is full international diplomatic recognition. Taiwan does not need anyone to come in to help them create political structure and government organizations, or to create a police or military force, or to build infrastructure, or create schools, or any of the things involved in “nation building.”
If, in some fantasy scenario, the PRC dropped their claims on Taiwan this morning, Taiwan would be a “nation” by tea time, with no “nation building” needed.
LOL... So, i don;t understand what "nation building" means?
What you guys are attempting to do is the epitome of nation building: Create a nation where none previously existed (despite your delusions that Taiwan has always been an independent nation).
And, it rests on the notion that the U.S. is able to dictate to the rest of the world how it will act, behave and think.
We should have learned that we are neither the saviors of the world as well as the limitations of our power and resources long ago. We just got slapped in the face with that reality -- again -- but some people are slow learners.
How many Americans should die trying (in vain) to "liberate" Taiwan? How many are you willing to sacrifice?
Or, are you just plan to continue the tough-guy talk until China has had enough of it and moves in -- and then walk away from yet another people who trusted us to defend them? You know, like the Kurds or the Afghans.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
There is no plan to spend American lives in liberating Taiwan, Taiwan doesn't need to be liberated! It already is independent. No one is creating a nation out of Taiwan because Taiwan is already a nation in just about every way that counts apart from formal recognition, and very few people are saying that there's any need for that to change.
The only one creating any ruckus here is you.
Do you really understand the English word independent? Can Taiwan defend by itself?
Why does Taiwan need to defend itself? It has a bigger army relative to population than lots of other independent nations around the world, so it can defend itself better than most, all other things being equal.
Every time before Taiwan holds a presidential equation, the government will send a delegation to US to hold talks with US officials. If it is really independent, why does it need US approval of the candidate?
You really need to post a reliable source for that. Mr. PRC.
I'll wait...
Can you read Chinese?
Can you?
Of course you can.
Sounds as if you don't have a reliable source...
He's posting to straight propaganda to increase his bounty from the CCP bosses. .50C per post isn't a lot!
My source is from Taiwanese news media. George is right! You are afraid of facts.
Maybe we can all rest a bit easier then, because if the PRC are willing to throw money away on this kind of half-assed crappy trolling then they're not nearly as smart as we've all been lead to believe.
Nonsense! Why do you think my facts are so important?
It is very difficult to find because Taiwan does not want this kind of news to be widely known. So it is a lone news. But I will keep searching.
Don't waste your time.
Even after you post the article, it will not change a thing
I fail to see how you can say this for certain given that you've never posted a link to back up anything you've said ever. Proof is anathema in the PRC-club.
You did not provide any link. And TMay only provided links from western propaganda and are not trustable.
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
Link please...
Read Wikipedia not China. ?
?
You are incoherent.
You should learn to find facts from Wikipedia.
Not my job, especially since I already linked to the fact the France was a founding member of the U.N.
You're just like your Chinese masters; all propaganda, all the time.
[snipped, because the forum software is struggling]
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
I'm wrong about the ROC representing China at the UN until the 1970s because France wasn't a founding nation?
Am I supposed to be taking you seriously, or is this some sort of slapstick routine?
You are wrong because you used the word recognition. Founding nation does not need recognition.
So the ROC is still on the UN Security Council? That'll be news to the UN Security Council. And what does that have to with France?
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
Link please...
Read Wikipedia not China. ?
?
You are incoherent.
You should learn to find facts from Wikipedia.
You should unlearn that. Even Wikipedia will say they should not be used a source, they're a collator of sources.
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
Link please...
Read Wikipedia not China. ?
?
You are incoherent.
You should learn to find facts from Wikipedia.
You should unlearn that. Even Wikipedia will say they should not be used a source, they're a collator of sources.
It does not say how UN was formed. It is not relevant to the history of UN we are discussing. And ironically it said India signed in 1945. The fact is India was still ruled by Britain in 1945. Who signed for Indian people? Wikipedia has more factual information than it.
[snipped, because the forum software is struggling]
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
I'm wrong about the ROC representing China at the UN until the 1970s because France wasn't a founding nation?
Am I supposed to be taking you seriously, or is this some sort of slapstick routine?
You are wrong because you used the word recognition. Founding nation does not need recognition.
So the ROC is still on the UN Security Council? That'll be news to the UN Security Council. And what does that have to with France?
I have explained earlier why ROC did not use veto power to keep itself stay in UN.
Not sure how China can "give up" Taiwan when they exhibit no control over it at all.
Thank you! It's pointless trying to reason with dunces. They're consuming from the CCP trough and nothing will convince them otherwise. Not wasting my time any further.
It's called the trough of reality. The only group who sees it your way are the China Haters. The rest of the world sees Taiwan as an autonomous region of China. Not even the U.S. government (even under Trump) considers Taiwan an independent country.
We have tried your nation building under the "Democracy, Freedom and Independence" mantra how many times now? And how many times did it work? And how many times did thousands of Americans die before we gave up? And you want to do that again? As the saying goes: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
I don’t think the term “nation building” means what you think it means. Without even getting into the merits or dangers of getting involved in helping Taiwan assert its independence, whatever unholy mess that conflict would be, one thing it wouldn’t be is “nation building.”
The only thing Taiwan lacks in being a “nation” is full international diplomatic recognition. Taiwan does not need anyone to come in to help them create political structure and government organizations, or to create a police or military force, or to build infrastructure, or create schools, or any of the things involved in “nation building.”
If, in some fantasy scenario, the PRC dropped their claims on Taiwan this morning, Taiwan would be a “nation” by tea time, with no “nation building” needed.
LOL... So, i don;t understand what "nation building" means?
What you guys are attempting to do is the epitome of nation building: Create a nation where none previously existed (despite your delusions that Taiwan has always been an independent nation).
And, it rests on the notion that the U.S. is able to dictate to the rest of the world how it will act, behave and think.
We should have learned that we are neither the saviors of the world as well as the limitations of our power and resources long ago. We just got slapped in the face with that reality -- again -- but some people are slow learners.
How many Americans should die trying (in vain) to "liberate" Taiwan? How many are you willing to sacrifice?
Or, are you just plan to continue the tough-guy talk until China has had enough of it and moves in -- and then walk away from yet another people who trusted us to defend them? You know, like the Kurds or the Afghans.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
There is no plan to spend American lives in liberating Taiwan, Taiwan doesn't need to be liberated! It already is independent. No one is creating a nation out of Taiwan because Taiwan is already a nation in just about every way that counts apart from formal recognition, and very few people are saying that there's any need for that to change.
The only one creating any ruckus here is you.
Do you really understand the English word independent? Can Taiwan defend by itself?
Why does Taiwan need to defend itself? It has a bigger army relative to population than lots of other independent nations around the world, so it can defend itself better than most, all other things being equal.
Every time before Taiwan holds a presidential equation, the government will send a delegation to US to hold talks with US officials. If it is really independent, why does it need US approval of the candidate?
You really need to post a reliable source for that. Mr. PRC.
I'll wait...
Can you read Chinese?
Can you?
Of course you can.
Sounds as if you don't have a reliable source...
He's posting to straight propaganda to increase his bounty from the CCP bosses. .50C per post isn't a lot!
My source is from Taiwanese news media. George is right! You are afraid of facts.
Maybe we can all rest a bit easier then, because if the PRC are willing to throw money away on this kind of half-assed crappy trolling then they're not nearly as smart as we've all been lead to believe.
Nonsense! Why do you think my facts are so important?
It is very difficult to find because Taiwan does not want this kind of news to be widely known. So it is a lone news. But I will keep searching.
Don't waste your time.
Even after you post the article, it will not change a thing: They don't care about anything but pursuing their agenda: the Liberation of Taiwan from China -- because they hate China. The only "facts" they care about are those that support their agenda.
The same happened with Iraq and Afghanistan: people like these two thought that "freedom and democracy" was not the best way but the only way and worth fighting for -- and the blood of hundreds of thousands is on their hands.
I was in the streets protesting the war in Afghanistan, and the war in Iraq, so you need to stop with making baseless assumptions about people. ...
It wasn't an assumption -- just an acknowledgement that same arguments you are making about "Free Taiwan" were the ones used to justify the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan (or at least the last 19 years of the Afghan war).
American needs to end these endless wars of ideology. They benefit no one but harm countless others -- as well as ourselves.
I'll continue supporting democracies, like Taiwan, and you can continue supporting authoritarians, like the PRC. The PRC never had control of Taiwan, and Japan returned Formosa to the ROC, not the PRC, and now that Taiwan has grown into a democracy, the West shouldn't allow the PRC to take it based on some flimsy legality.
But I do support democracies -- our own.
I don't want us to squander that democracy fighting never ending civil wars or trying to dictate to the rest of the world what they should do, say and believe.
Not sure how China can "give up" Taiwan when they exhibit no control over it at all.
Thank you! It's pointless trying to reason with dunces. They're consuming from the CCP trough and nothing will convince them otherwise. Not wasting my time any further.
It's called the trough of reality. The only group who sees it your way are the China Haters. The rest of the world sees Taiwan as an autonomous region of China. Not even the U.S. government (even under Trump) considers Taiwan an independent country.
We have tried your nation building under the "Democracy, Freedom and Independence" mantra how many times now? And how many times did it work? And how many times did thousands of Americans die before we gave up? And you want to do that again? As the saying goes: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
I don’t think the term “nation building” means what you think it means. Without even getting into the merits or dangers of getting involved in helping Taiwan assert its independence, whatever unholy mess that conflict would be, one thing it wouldn’t be is “nation building.”
The only thing Taiwan lacks in being a “nation” is full international diplomatic recognition. Taiwan does not need anyone to come in to help them create political structure and government organizations, or to create a police or military force, or to build infrastructure, or create schools, or any of the things involved in “nation building.”
If, in some fantasy scenario, the PRC dropped their claims on Taiwan this morning, Taiwan would be a “nation” by tea time, with no “nation building” needed.
LOL... So, i don;t understand what "nation building" means?
What you guys are attempting to do is the epitome of nation building: Create a nation where none previously existed (despite your delusions that Taiwan has always been an independent nation).
And, it rests on the notion that the U.S. is able to dictate to the rest of the world how it will act, behave and think.
We should have learned that we are neither the saviors of the world as well as the limitations of our power and resources long ago. We just got slapped in the face with that reality -- again -- but some people are slow learners.
How many Americans should die trying (in vain) to "liberate" Taiwan? How many are you willing to sacrifice?
Or, are you just plan to continue the tough-guy talk until China has had enough of it and moves in -- and then walk away from yet another people who trusted us to defend them? You know, like the Kurds or the Afghans.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
There is no plan to spend American lives in liberating Taiwan, Taiwan doesn't need to be liberated! It already is independent. No one is creating a nation out of Taiwan because Taiwan is already a nation in just about every way that counts apart from formal recognition, and very few people are saying that there's any need for that to change.
The only one creating any ruckus here is you.
Do you really understand the English word independent? Can Taiwan defend by itself?
Why does Taiwan need to defend itself? It has a bigger army relative to population than lots of other independent nations around the world, so it can defend itself better than most, all other things being equal.
Every time before Taiwan holds a presidential equation, the government will send a delegation to US to hold talks with US officials. If it is really independent, why does it need US approval of the candidate?
You really need to post a reliable source for that. Mr. PRC.
I'll wait...
Can you read Chinese?
Can you?
Of course you can.
Sounds as if you don't have a reliable source...
He's posting to straight propaganda to increase his bounty from the CCP bosses. .50C per post isn't a lot!
My source is from Taiwanese news media. George is right! You are afraid of facts.
Maybe we can all rest a bit easier then, because if the PRC are willing to throw money away on this kind of half-assed crappy trolling then they're not nearly as smart as we've all been lead to believe.
Nonsense! Why do you think my facts are so important?
It is very difficult to find because Taiwan does not want this kind of news to be widely known. So it is a lone news. But I will keep searching.
Don't waste your time.
Even after you post the article, it will not change a thing
I fail to see how you can say this for certain given that you've never posted a link to back up anything you've said ever. Proof is anathema in the PRC-club.
You did not provide any link. And TMay only provided links from western propaganda and are not trustable.
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
...
Even today, the U.S. is the leader of the free world simply because it has the military to sustain the rules of order, albeit it relies on its allies to accomplish that mission.
...
You sure about that?
We tried in Vietnam: 53,000 dead and we lost -- plus untold thousands of Vietnamese
We tried in Iraq: 4,000 dead and we lost -- plus hundreds of thousands of Iraqis
We tried in Afghanistan: 6,000 dead and we lost -- plus hundreds of thousands of Afghans
Our military couldn't even defend our own capitol!
Not sure how China can "give up" Taiwan when they exhibit no control over it at all.
Thank you! It's pointless trying to reason with dunces. They're consuming from the CCP trough and nothing will convince them otherwise. Not wasting my time any further.
It's called the trough of reality. The only group who sees it your way are the China Haters. The rest of the world sees Taiwan as an autonomous region of China. Not even the U.S. government (even under Trump) considers Taiwan an independent country.
We have tried your nation building under the "Democracy, Freedom and Independence" mantra how many times now? And how many times did it work? And how many times did thousands of Americans die before we gave up? And you want to do that again? As the saying goes: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
I don’t think the term “nation building” means what you think it means. Without even getting into the merits or dangers of getting involved in helping Taiwan assert its independence, whatever unholy mess that conflict would be, one thing it wouldn’t be is “nation building.”
The only thing Taiwan lacks in being a “nation” is full international diplomatic recognition. Taiwan does not need anyone to come in to help them create political structure and government organizations, or to create a police or military force, or to build infrastructure, or create schools, or any of the things involved in “nation building.”
If, in some fantasy scenario, the PRC dropped their claims on Taiwan this morning, Taiwan would be a “nation” by tea time, with no “nation building” needed.
LOL... So, i don;t understand what "nation building" means?
What you guys are attempting to do is the epitome of nation building: Create a nation where none previously existed (despite your delusions that Taiwan has always been an independent nation).
And, it rests on the notion that the U.S. is able to dictate to the rest of the world how it will act, behave and think.
We should have learned that we are neither the saviors of the world as well as the limitations of our power and resources long ago. We just got slapped in the face with that reality -- again -- but some people are slow learners.
How many Americans should die trying (in vain) to "liberate" Taiwan? How many are you willing to sacrifice?
Or, are you just plan to continue the tough-guy talk until China has had enough of it and moves in -- and then walk away from yet another people who trusted us to defend them? You know, like the Kurds or the Afghans.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
There is no plan to spend American lives in liberating Taiwan, Taiwan doesn't need to be liberated! It already is independent. No one is creating a nation out of Taiwan because Taiwan is already a nation in just about every way that counts apart from formal recognition, and very few people are saying that there's any need for that to change.
The only one creating any ruckus here is you.
Do you really understand the English word independent? Can Taiwan defend by itself?
Why does Taiwan need to defend itself? It has a bigger army relative to population than lots of other independent nations around the world, so it can defend itself better than most, all other things being equal.
Every time before Taiwan holds a presidential equation, the government will send a delegation to US to hold talks with US officials. If it is really independent, why does it need US approval of the candidate?
You really need to post a reliable source for that. Mr. PRC.
I'll wait...
Can you read Chinese?
Can you?
Of course you can.
Sounds as if you don't have a reliable source...
He's posting to straight propaganda to increase his bounty from the CCP bosses. .50C per post isn't a lot!
My source is from Taiwanese news media. George is right! You are afraid of facts.
Maybe we can all rest a bit easier then, because if the PRC are willing to throw money away on this kind of half-assed crappy trolling then they're not nearly as smart as we've all been lead to believe.
Nonsense! Why do you think my facts are so important?
It is very difficult to find because Taiwan does not want this kind of news to be widely known. So it is a lone news. But I will keep searching.
Don't waste your time.
Even after you post the article, it will not change a thing
I fail to see how you can say this for certain given that you've never posted a link to back up anything you've said ever. Proof is anathema in the PRC-club.
You did not provide any link. And TMay only provided links from western propaganda and are not trustable.
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
...
Even today, the U.S. is the leader of the free world simply because it has the military to sustain the rules of order, albeit it relies on its allies to accomplish that mission.
...
You sure about that?
We tried in Vietnam: 53,000 dead and we lost -- plus untold thousands of Vietnamese
We tried in Iraq: 4,000 dead and we lost -- plus hundreds of thousands of Iraqis
We tried in Afghanistan: 6,000 dead and we lost -- plus hundreds of thousands of Afghans
Our military couldn't even defend our own capitol!
WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER WAR!
So, you don't recognize the the U.S. Navy and our allies have been providing freedom of navigation, while keeping the world's trade routes safe since the end of WWII? That's the basis of global trade. Yeah, that's rules of order at work.
Factually, neither our National Guard, or Military was involved in protecting the Capitol, until they were requested after the breach.
Investigations are imminent, to determine whether the Capitol Police were undermanned and unprepared for the threat posed by two days of rallies against the results of the 2020 election, but the answer as to why troops posted blocks away were unable to respond to the siege is as simple ― or as complicated ― as a morass of bureaucracy.
Simply put, the National Guard only shows up to D.C. when they’ve been invited, and the Capitol Police did not extend that invitation until after the breach, according to a source with knowledge of the process, who was not authorized to speak about it on the record.
The several hundred troops posted around downtown D.C. on Wednesday were there at the request of Mayor Muriel Bowser, to support local police.
“We had worked out that the support we were providing the [Metropolitan] Police Department would be on traffic control points,” the source said, including downtown subway stations and select blocks, where teams of two Guardsmen and several vehicles were keeping the streets clear of cars.
Bowser put in a request for support Dec. 31, Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy told reporters on Thursday.
The Defense Department was in contact with Capital Police ahead of Tuesday and Wednesday’s protests, Kenneth Rapuano, the assistant defense secretary for homeland defense, told reporters during a press call on Thursday. They asserted that they would not be requesting National Guard support, he said.
You need to get your story straight.
Sorry, but those 60,000+ dead American soldiers (mentioned above) want to know why you want more to die in an unwinnable war?
And, if you didn't notice militias planned an attack on our capitol in public and executed that attack while our military sat a few miles away with their thumb up their ass while police tried to fend off the attack -- and the military then later cried "How were we to know?". Could we count that as the 4th war they lost against a ragtag bunch of militias? But go ahead - wave your flag and chant "U S A !" while you try to incite a war with China.
Not sure how China can "give up" Taiwan when they exhibit no control over it at all.
Thank you! It's pointless trying to reason with dunces. They're consuming from the CCP trough and nothing will convince them otherwise. Not wasting my time any further.
It's called the trough of reality. The only group who sees it your way are the China Haters. The rest of the world sees Taiwan as an autonomous region of China. Not even the U.S. government (even under Trump) considers Taiwan an independent country.
We have tried your nation building under the "Democracy, Freedom and Independence" mantra how many times now? And how many times did it work? And how many times did thousands of Americans die before we gave up? And you want to do that again? As the saying goes: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
I don’t think the term “nation building” means what you think it means. Without even getting into the merits or dangers of getting involved in helping Taiwan assert its independence, whatever unholy mess that conflict would be, one thing it wouldn’t be is “nation building.”
The only thing Taiwan lacks in being a “nation” is full international diplomatic recognition. Taiwan does not need anyone to come in to help them create political structure and government organizations, or to create a police or military force, or to build infrastructure, or create schools, or any of the things involved in “nation building.”
If, in some fantasy scenario, the PRC dropped their claims on Taiwan this morning, Taiwan would be a “nation” by tea time, with no “nation building” needed.
LOL... So, i don;t understand what "nation building" means?
What you guys are attempting to do is the epitome of nation building: Create a nation where none previously existed (despite your delusions that Taiwan has always been an independent nation).
And, it rests on the notion that the U.S. is able to dictate to the rest of the world how it will act, behave and think.
We should have learned that we are neither the saviors of the world as well as the limitations of our power and resources long ago. We just got slapped in the face with that reality -- again -- but some people are slow learners.
How many Americans should die trying (in vain) to "liberate" Taiwan? How many are you willing to sacrifice?
Or, are you just plan to continue the tough-guy talk until China has had enough of it and moves in -- and then walk away from yet another people who trusted us to defend them? You know, like the Kurds or the Afghans.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
There is no plan to spend American lives in liberating Taiwan, Taiwan doesn't need to be liberated! It already is independent. No one is creating a nation out of Taiwan because Taiwan is already a nation in just about every way that counts apart from formal recognition, and very few people are saying that there's any need for that to change.
The only one creating any ruckus here is you.
Do you really understand the English word independent? Can Taiwan defend by itself?
Why does Taiwan need to defend itself? It has a bigger army relative to population than lots of other independent nations around the world, so it can defend itself better than most, all other things being equal.
Every time before Taiwan holds a presidential equation, the government will send a delegation to US to hold talks with US officials. If it is really independent, why does it need US approval of the candidate?
You really need to post a reliable source for that. Mr. PRC.
I'll wait...
Can you read Chinese?
Can you?
Of course you can.
Sounds as if you don't have a reliable source...
He's posting to straight propaganda to increase his bounty from the CCP bosses. .50C per post isn't a lot!
My source is from Taiwanese news media. George is right! You are afraid of facts.
Maybe we can all rest a bit easier then, because if the PRC are willing to throw money away on this kind of half-assed crappy trolling then they're not nearly as smart as we've all been lead to believe.
Nonsense! Why do you think my facts are so important?
It is very difficult to find because Taiwan does not want this kind of news to be widely known. So it is a lone news. But I will keep searching.
Don't waste your time.
Even after you post the article, it will not change a thing
I fail to see how you can say this for certain given that you've never posted a link to back up anything you've said ever. Proof is anathema in the PRC-club.
You did not provide any link. And TMay only provided links from western propaganda and are not trustable.
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
...
Even today, the U.S. is the leader of the free world simply because it has the military to sustain the rules of order, albeit it relies on its allies to accomplish that mission.
...
You sure about that?
We tried in Vietnam: 53,000 dead and we lost -- plus untold thousands of Vietnamese
We tried in Iraq: 4,000 dead and we lost -- plus hundreds of thousands of Iraqis
We tried in Afghanistan: 6,000 dead and we lost -- plus hundreds of thousands of Afghans
Our military couldn't even defend our own capitol!
WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER WAR!
So, you don't recognize the the U.S. Navy and our allies have been providing freedom of navigation, while keeping the world's trade routes safe since the end of WWII? That's the basis of global trade. Yeah, that's rules of order at work.
Factually, neither our National Guard, or Military was involved in protecting the Capitol, until they were requested after the breach.
Investigations are imminent, to determine whether the Capitol Police were undermanned and unprepared for the threat posed by two days of rallies against the results of the 2020 election, but the answer as to why troops posted blocks away were unable to respond to the siege is as simple ― or as complicated ― as a morass of bureaucracy.
Simply put, the National Guard only shows up to D.C. when they’ve been invited, and the Capitol Police did not extend that invitation until after the breach, according to a source with knowledge of the process, who was not authorized to speak about it on the record.
The several hundred troops posted around downtown D.C. on Wednesday were there at the request of Mayor Muriel Bowser, to support local police.
“We had worked out that the support we were providing the [Metropolitan] Police Department would be on traffic control points,” the source said, including downtown subway stations and select blocks, where teams of two Guardsmen and several vehicles were keeping the streets clear of cars.
Bowser put in a request for support Dec. 31, Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy told reporters on Thursday.
The Defense Department was in contact with Capital Police ahead of Tuesday and Wednesday’s protests, Kenneth Rapuano, the assistant defense secretary for homeland defense, told reporters during a press call on Thursday. They asserted that they would not be requesting National Guard support, he said.
You need to get your story straight.
Sorry, but those 60,000+ dead American soldiers (mentioned above) want to know why you want more to die in an unwinnable war?
And, if you didn't notice militias planned an attack on our capitol in public and executed that attack while our military sat a few miles away with their thumb up their ass while police tried to fend off the attack -- and the military then later cried "How were we to know?". Could we count that as the 4th war they lost against a ragtag bunch of militias? But go ahead - wave your flag and chant "U S A !" while you try to incite a war with China.
How about Korea, an actual war that pitted proxies of the U.S. and its allies, under the U.N., and China with North Korea?
Surely you would be happy for South Koreans today.
As for the Military and Jan 6, I already posted what occurred. Perhaps you need to cool off a bit.
With regard to Taiwan, maybe it would be best if you told China just to leave things as it is; status quo. But of course, China is sovereign, so nobody gets to tell them what to do.
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
Link please...
Read Wikipedia not China. ?
?
You are incoherent.
You should learn to find facts from Wikipedia.
You should unlearn that. Even Wikipedia will say they should not be used a source, they're a collator of sources.
It does not say how UN was formed. It is not relevant to the history of UN we are discussing. And ironically it said India signed in 1945. The fact is India was still ruled by Britain in 1945. Who signed for Indian people? Wikipedia has more factual information than it.
It says when it was founded and who it was founded by, and when each of those founders ratified its charter, which is all that legally matters. You argue that France was not a founding nation, the dates of signing and ratification say otherwise.
India has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, quit with the distraction tactics.
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
Link please...
Read Wikipedia not China. ?
?
You are incoherent.
You should learn to find facts from Wikipedia.
You should unlearn that. Even Wikipedia will say they should not be used a source, they're a collator of sources.
It does not say how UN was formed. It is not relevant to the history of UN we are discussing. And ironically it said India signed in 1945. The fact is India was still ruled by Britain in 1945. Who signed for Indian people? Wikipedia has more factual information than it.
It says when it was founded and who it was founded by, and when each of those founders ratified its charter, which is all that legally matters. You argue that France was not a founding nation, the dates of signing and ratification say otherwise.
India has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, quit with the distraction tactics.
It is not a distraction. It means this web site is not trustable for history. Your short coming is not able to connect the dots with logic. You simply throw away the dots you don't like.
[snipped, because the forum software is struggling]
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
I'm wrong about the ROC representing China at the UN until the 1970s because France wasn't a founding nation?
Am I supposed to be taking you seriously, or is this some sort of slapstick routine?
You are wrong because you used the word recognition. Founding nation does not need recognition.
So the ROC is still on the UN Security Council? That'll be news to the UN Security Council. And what does that have to with France?
I have explained earlier why ROC did not use veto power to keep itself stay in UN.
Are you referring to this barely comprehensible nonsense:
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council. It has veto power. It can veto general assembly resolution. It did not do so because it depends on US for its own security. You would not hear this story because US does not want others know it controls Taiwan.
You're going to need to run that through your PRC translator again because it doesn't make any sense.
Giving you the most generous reading I can, the ROC were not able to veto the resolution, the protocols of recognition of state representatives were not subject to a security council veto. It was given over to a general vote, which the USA voted against (and also did not veto, because they couldn't).
So you're wrong in just about every way that you can be wrong. Being generous.
Not sure how China can "give up" Taiwan when they exhibit no control over it at all.
Thank you! It's pointless trying to reason with dunces. They're consuming from the CCP trough and nothing will convince them otherwise. Not wasting my time any further.
It's called the trough of reality. The only group who sees it your way are the China Haters. The rest of the world sees Taiwan as an autonomous region of China. Not even the U.S. government (even under Trump) considers Taiwan an independent country.
We have tried your nation building under the "Democracy, Freedom and Independence" mantra how many times now? And how many times did it work? And how many times did thousands of Americans die before we gave up? And you want to do that again? As the saying goes: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
I don’t think the term “nation building” means what you think it means. Without even getting into the merits or dangers of getting involved in helping Taiwan assert its independence, whatever unholy mess that conflict would be, one thing it wouldn’t be is “nation building.”
The only thing Taiwan lacks in being a “nation” is full international diplomatic recognition. Taiwan does not need anyone to come in to help them create political structure and government organizations, or to create a police or military force, or to build infrastructure, or create schools, or any of the things involved in “nation building.”
If, in some fantasy scenario, the PRC dropped their claims on Taiwan this morning, Taiwan would be a “nation” by tea time, with no “nation building” needed.
LOL... So, i don;t understand what "nation building" means?
What you guys are attempting to do is the epitome of nation building: Create a nation where none previously existed (despite your delusions that Taiwan has always been an independent nation).
And, it rests on the notion that the U.S. is able to dictate to the rest of the world how it will act, behave and think.
We should have learned that we are neither the saviors of the world as well as the limitations of our power and resources long ago. We just got slapped in the face with that reality -- again -- but some people are slow learners.
How many Americans should die trying (in vain) to "liberate" Taiwan? How many are you willing to sacrifice?
Or, are you just plan to continue the tough-guy talk until China has had enough of it and moves in -- and then walk away from yet another people who trusted us to defend them? You know, like the Kurds or the Afghans.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
There is no plan to spend American lives in liberating Taiwan, Taiwan doesn't need to be liberated! It already is independent. No one is creating a nation out of Taiwan because Taiwan is already a nation in just about every way that counts apart from formal recognition, and very few people are saying that there's any need for that to change.
The only one creating any ruckus here is you.
Do you really understand the English word independent? Can Taiwan defend by itself?
Why does Taiwan need to defend itself? It has a bigger army relative to population than lots of other independent nations around the world, so it can defend itself better than most, all other things being equal.
Every time before Taiwan holds a presidential equation, the government will send a delegation to US to hold talks with US officials. If it is really independent, why does it need US approval of the candidate?
You really need to post a reliable source for that. Mr. PRC.
I'll wait...
Can you read Chinese?
Can you?
Of course you can.
Sounds as if you don't have a reliable source...
He's posting to straight propaganda to increase his bounty from the CCP bosses. .50C per post isn't a lot!
My source is from Taiwanese news media. George is right! You are afraid of facts.
Maybe we can all rest a bit easier then, because if the PRC are willing to throw money away on this kind of half-assed crappy trolling then they're not nearly as smart as we've all been lead to believe.
Nonsense! Why do you think my facts are so important?
It is very difficult to find because Taiwan does not want this kind of news to be widely known. So it is a lone news. But I will keep searching.
Don't waste your time.
Even after you post the article, it will not change a thing
I fail to see how you can say this for certain given that you've never posted a link to back up anything you've said ever. Proof is anathema in the PRC-club.
You did not provide any link. And TMay only provided links from western propaganda and are not trustable.
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
...
Even today, the U.S. is the leader of the free world simply because it has the military to sustain the rules of order, albeit it relies on its allies to accomplish that mission.
...
You sure about that?
We tried in Vietnam: 53,000 dead and we lost -- plus untold thousands of Vietnamese
We tried in Iraq: 4,000 dead and we lost -- plus hundreds of thousands of Iraqis
We tried in Afghanistan: 6,000 dead and we lost -- plus hundreds of thousands of Afghans
Our military couldn't even defend our own capitol!
WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER WAR!
WHO ARE YOU SHOUTING AT? NO ONE WANTS A WAR.
THEN YOU SHOULD STOP INSTIGATING ONE!
ANOTHER ONE WE CAN'T WIN!
Oh do shut up, you tiresome fool. Every way in which you can be wrong, you choose to be, and you're a dickhead on top of it.
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
Link please...
Read Wikipedia not China. ?
?
You are incoherent.
You should learn to find facts from Wikipedia.
You should unlearn that. Even Wikipedia will say they should not be used a source, they're a collator of sources.
It does not say how UN was formed. It is not relevant to the history of UN we are discussing. And ironically it said India signed in 1945. The fact is India was still ruled by Britain in 1945. Who signed for Indian people? Wikipedia has more factual information than it.
It says when it was founded and who it was founded by, and when each of those founders ratified its charter, which is all that legally matters. You argue that France was not a founding nation, the dates of signing and ratification say otherwise.
India has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, quit with the distraction tactics.
It is not a distraction. It means this web site is not trustable for history. Your short coming is not able to connect the dots with logic. You simply throw away the dots you don't like.
India was a signatory to the founding of the UN. It was not an independent country, but that has little bearing on the matter, it is independent now and has continued its membership and ratification of the charter. What are you even claiming here, that India isn't recognised by the UN? Ridiculous. This is all just another very transparent distraction from you because you still haven't provided any link to back up your earlier claims.
And if you post a Wikipedia link I will openly laugh at you. Actually, I'll probably do that anyway, you're a very funny moron.
[snipped, because the forum software is struggling]
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
I'm wrong about the ROC representing China at the UN until the 1970s because France wasn't a founding nation?
Am I supposed to be taking you seriously, or is this some sort of slapstick routine?
You are wrong because you used the word recognition. Founding nation does not need recognition.
So the ROC is still on the UN Security Council? That'll be news to the UN Security Council. And what does that have to with France?
I have explained earlier why ROC did not use veto power to keep itself stay in UN.
Are you referring to this barely comprehensible nonsense:
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council. It has veto power. It can veto general assembly resolution. It did not do so because it depends on US for its own security. You would not hear this story because US does not want others know it controls Taiwan.
You're going to need to run that through your PRC translator again because it doesn't make any sense.
Giving you the most generous reading I can, the ROC were not able to veto the resolution, the protocols of recognition of state representatives were not subject to a security council veto. It was given over to a general vote, which the USA voted against (and also did not veto, because they couldn't).
So you're wrong in just about every way that you can be wrong. Being generous.
Of course it makes sense. UN Security Council veto members can veto anything passed by the General Assembly. For example, the General Assembly had passed resolution against Israel overwhelmingly only to be vetoed by US.
The complication is the extant claims that both profess in being the legitimate government over the whole of China and Taiwan. But that is a diplomatic anomaly that is a holdover from the civil war, in much the same way as both North and South Korea claim to be the "true" Korea. Pick a side according to your ideology, but any semblance of real world practicality will tell you that they are separate and independent.
There is some controversy over how to resolve the issue, but fundamentally there is no need to resolve the issue, everyone is satisfied with the status quo and no one wants to see conflict. So you and George are just stirring up trouble with your propaganda and muddying of waters. Cut it out.
And you still haven't posted anything to back up your claims.
You failed history! China was one of four founding nations of UN and thus ROC is not RECOGNIZED by UN. And your biggest failure is failed to recognize US is the hand behind all the world affairs after WWII. I said Taiwan is not independent originated from this premise. Taiwan cannot be independent if it does not get support from US. This is the conclusion from the premise.
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
Link please...
Read Wikipedia not China. ?
?
You are incoherent.
You should learn to find facts from Wikipedia.
You should unlearn that. Even Wikipedia will say they should not be used a source, they're a collator of sources.
It does not say how UN was formed. It is not relevant to the history of UN we are discussing. And ironically it said India signed in 1945. The fact is India was still ruled by Britain in 1945. Who signed for Indian people? Wikipedia has more factual information than it.
It says when it was founded and who it was founded by, and when each of those founders ratified its charter, which is all that legally matters. You argue that France was not a founding nation, the dates of signing and ratification say otherwise.
India has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, quit with the distraction tactics.
It is not a distraction. It means this web site is not trustable for history. Your short coming is not able to connect the dots with logic. You simply throw away the dots you don't like.
India was a signatory to the founding of the UN. It was not an independent country, but that has little bearing on the matter, it is independent now and has continued its membership and ratification of the charter. What are you even claiming here, that India isn't recognised by the UN? Ridiculous. This is all just another very transparent distraction from you because you still haven't provided any link to back up your earlier claims.
And if you post a Wikipedia link I will openly laugh at you. Actually, I'll probably do that anyway, you're a very funny moron.
I have used India as an example to show that UN has a vague idea of what a nation is. It is very laughable many UN nations were not able to protect the safety of its citizens. They depend UN troops to maintain their own safety. Yet UN RECOGNIZE them as nations. Note, my view is completely different from CCP. So you and TMay repeatedly accuse me of representing CCP is stupid.
[snipped, because the forum software is struggling]
Can you read? That's exactly what I said. The ROC was recognised as China until the 1970s, and the PRC have been recognised as China since then. The very fact that the recognition shifted is indicative that the ROC and its lands are a different entity to the PRC and its lands.
The USA supports Israel too. And in the immediate aftermath of WW2 Europe was rebuilt with aid from the USA. And yet Israel and Europe are all independent of the USA. What you are saying doesn't even make any sense; Taiwan is not independent of China because it receives support from the USA?
Sort out your own story before you criticise mine.
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council.
So I'm wrong because...?
France is not a founding nation. It was invited after the initial drafting.
I'm wrong about the ROC representing China at the UN until the 1970s because France wasn't a founding nation?
Am I supposed to be taking you seriously, or is this some sort of slapstick routine?
You are wrong because you used the word recognition. Founding nation does not need recognition.
So the ROC is still on the UN Security Council? That'll be news to the UN Security Council. And what does that have to with France?
I have explained earlier why ROC did not use veto power to keep itself stay in UN.
Are you referring to this barely comprehensible nonsense:
You are wrong about ROC was recognized by UN as China. When UN was founded in 1945, ROC governed China. When ROC fled to Taiwan in 1949, it still sends delegates to UN and attended all UN meetings. ROC is a permanent member of UN security council. It has veto power. It can veto general assembly resolution. It did not do so because it depends on US for its own security. You would not hear this story because US does not want others know it controls Taiwan.
You're going to need to run that through your PRC translator again because it doesn't make any sense.
Giving you the most generous reading I can, the ROC were not able to veto the resolution, the protocols of recognition of state representatives were not subject to a security council veto. It was given over to a general vote, which the USA voted against (and also did not veto, because they couldn't).
So you're wrong in just about every way that you can be wrong. Being generous.
Of course it makes sense. UN Security Council veto members can veto anything passed by the General Assembly. For example, the General Assembly had passed resolution against Israel overwhelmingly only to be vetoed by US.
Nope, the veto power is limited, and does not include procedural resolutions, which would include recognition of delegates.
The resolution against Israel was substantive, and not procedural.
Comments
You are incoherent.
You're just like your Chinese masters; all propaganda, all the time.
Here's an actual source about the countries that founded the UN, from the UN: https://research.un.org/en/unmembers/founders
France were the second to ratify the charter.
Sorry, but those 60,000+ dead American soldiers (mentioned above) want to know why you want more to die in an unwinnable war?
And, if you didn't notice militias planned an attack on our capitol in public and executed that attack while our military sat a few miles away with their thumb up their ass while police tried to fend off the attack -- and the military then later cried "How were we to know?". Could we count that as the 4th war they lost against a ragtag bunch of militias? But go ahead - wave your flag and chant "U S A !" while you try to incite a war with China.
Surely you would be happy for South Koreans today.
As for the Military and Jan 6, I already posted what occurred. Perhaps you need to cool off a bit.
With regard to Taiwan, maybe it would be best if you told China just to leave things as it is; status quo. But of course, China is sovereign, so nobody gets to tell them what to do.
India has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, quit with the distraction tactics.
You're going to need to run that through your PRC translator again because it doesn't make any sense.
Giving you the most generous reading I can, the ROC were not able to veto the resolution, the protocols of recognition of state representatives were not subject to a security council veto. It was given over to a general vote, which the USA voted against (and also did not veto, because they couldn't).
So you're wrong in just about every way that you can be wrong. Being generous.
And if you post a Wikipedia link I will openly laugh at you. Actually, I'll probably do that anyway, you're a very funny moron.
The resolution against Israel was substantive, and not procedural.