[quote]<strong>We know for sure that Steve wants to break the news about a G5 first. Anyone disagree with that? So the announcement needs to happen well before October 15th.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, Im sure he wants to be the first to tell the world, but thats not going to happend before the conference. IBM is not going to say the chip is mean to be the next-gen mac CPU.
Yeah, but nobody expected the G4 to be announced. I remember that all the rumor sites were expecting a smoky grey case with G3s in the 500-600 MHz range.
<strong>What if IBM released it's own tower with this chip, with OS X in it? Na!</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're not too far off. I would bet that IBM uses this chip themselves for Linux and/or AIX systems. If Apple can use it too, so much the better - we don't know enough at the moment to tell exactly who this is intended for (well, anybody IBM can get to use it, but just who they are is what we don't know).
Maybe this chip from IBM will be the G6 and maybe there is a Motorola G5 for Apple. I could see a scenario where Apple got angry (in particular, Mr. Jobs) because Motorola had to rev the G5 several times causing new powermac delays. This might have resulted in a falling out between Motorola and Apple and that?s why we have been hearing that Motorola is not going to be making anymore processors for macs.
Why are so many people suggesting that since we're only hearing about this new chip from IBM now, it means that we have 6 months to 2 years of waiting before it's available in quantity?
Is there any law that says that IBM MUST announce a new chip to the world long before it's being fabbed? IBM is ALREADY producing chips in their new plant. Who can say for certain that the chips being built there ARE NOT this 64-bit CPU?
People have been complaining about the PowerMac series for well over a year now. Where is the DDR? Where is the Firewire 2? Why is Apple only releasing tiny little speed bumps every few months when it appears as if the PowerMac line is falling apart, taking Apple's professional market with it?
Some people seem to think that these negligable updates are 100% a result of Motorola being unable to produce big speed jumps in the G4. Motorola can't put out, so Apple is stuck looking silly at each new release...so much so that Apple introduces it's Dual 1 GHz machine as a quiet press release, without any special fanfare.
"Poor Apple...being led to slaughter by Motorola. Apple is going out of business...Apple is doomed unless they switch to x86", etc.
I am not one who believes in the two proceeding paragraphs above. Do I agree that Motorola has hog-tied Apple for far too long? Absolutely! Does Steve Jobs seem to be the kind of guy who would let Motorola hold Apple down while they drown in bad press and mediocre performance gains for 2 years? Absolutely not!
The Xserve was announced 3 months ago...you can be sure that it was in development for a year or more before it was ever introduced. That means that Apple began working on their "DDR hack" a long time ago, and yet it has never made it to any of the current PowerMac G4 machines? Why? Can we really believe Apple is that "stupid"?
And what about the MacWorld SF "Beyond the rumor sites...way beyond!" tagline that everyone ripped Apple about after a fairly uneventful MacWorld had ended? Either Apple was just blowing smoke up our collective arses, or it actually meant something and no one caught on to it.
I believe Apple was preparing to announce the next PowerMac machine at that MacWorld. Extra time had been scheduled for the keynote. They had something they felt was pretty awesome ready to go. My guess is that it was a PowerMac using the same DDR technology the Xserve uses. A new motherboard with other special treats on it...and maybe, just maybe, a new chip. The mythical "G5"...although we'll never really know.
But then Apple pulled it back at the very last minute. The extra time scheduled for the keynote was not used, and everyone walked away wondering what went wrong...Apple had promised something "way beyond the rumor sites" and left the faithful with only a dazed and confused look in our eyes.
I simply refuse to believe that Apple has not been working on projects behind closed doors and under tight NDA that far surpass a simple speed bump. Hell, the machines have remained practically unchanged except for the "QuickSilver" case alterations and incremental speed bumps for a long time!
In recent months, Apple has bought a stable of video editing software products...on top of acquiring Raycer and Zayante quite a while back. Has Apple spent millions of dollars to acquire all of this technology to be used in a Dual 1.4 GHz PowerMac G4? Is that the pinnacle Apple has been working toward the last 2 years? Impossible...no one with any logical thinking can truly believe that.
So what does all of the above tell us? There are some people in these forums will say it means that Apple, with all their money and engineers and technology buyouts, have achieved almost NOTHING revolutionary in the last two years, and knowingly allowed Motorola to drown them.
*** OR ***
Apple has something up it's sleeve...and the fact that the rumor sites don't have "sources" telling us all the details doesn't mean we won't end up as shocked in a few weeks as we were when the eMac appeared out of the blue...and the iPod...and the original iMac.
Let's not ignore the obvious. Apple has a long term relationship with IBM. This new processor came as a shock to us, the general public. "Wow...64-bit w/AltiVec and 32-bit PPC compatibility? Someone should make sure Apple knows about this!" Apple knew about it...IBM would have made certain of it...and that easily could have been 6 months to a year ago.
Plenty of time for development and testing on early prototypes. Plenty of time to build a new motherboard, as seen on eBay. Plenty of time to design a number of prototype cases, images Apple requested be taken off all the Mac sites recently. Plenty of time to figure out how to properly cool the thing with a huge heat sink and front-mounted vents on the case. Maybe even enough time to be ready to announce/release the item at LAST year's MacWorld San Francisco.
But what if some problems came up right before the announcement? Bug in the chip design? Problems in the fabrication process? Yields too low for mass consumption? All the same horrors that Apple experienced in the initial release of Motorola's G4. Apple couldn't possibly afford to go through all that again. The bad press would destroy them.
So what happens? They pull the announcement, and decide to continue work and resolve all the problems and get production up to speed before they risk another public scandal. IBM tells them they have a new production facility coming online shortly that will guarantee the quality and quantity of parts Apple needs to be insured a successful announcement. So much to Job's dismay, after the embarassing "Beyond the rumor sites" lead-in, they pull back and wait until the time is right.
With a number of lackluster G4 speed bumps in a row, the time certainly seems right. With OS X 10.2 ready for release, the time certainly seems right. With the eMac and iMac all with G4s and specs that are far too close to the professional machines, the time certainly seems right. With a slew of recently purchased video-related products begging for an amazing machine to act as their platform, the time certainly seems right.
Some will claim that the Xserve release is a solid indicator that nothing "special" is coming. Why would Apple release a server platform on "old" technology is something newer was so close? Talk to real server admins. They don't use cutting-edge technology as soon as it's released. They use what they know works. And Dual G4 systems, especially those than can be clustered in racks, is what they need. The Xserve shows us exactly what Apple COULD have given us in the PowerMac G4 at least 6 months ago, but mysteriously held back on. Why?
This is speculation...I am not an expert, and I don't claim to know more than anyone else. Some will find my comments to be intriguing, and at least a logical possibility, however remote. Others will decide they need a shovel to get out from under the steaming pile I've left here.
Regardless of your viewpoint, I still believe that Apple is smarter than we think, and amazingly tight lipped, which leads into the hunger we have for these rumor sites. But all signs do seem to point to every Mac fan considering IBM to be our new best friend in the near future.
I'll let the rest of you continue debating how close that future is...
[quote]No, Dave, he's simply stating that the last time IBM introduced a processor at this Forum, it was tapped out and in a new product about 6 months later.
<hr></blockquote>
Gamblor, also don't forget that 750Fx was IBM's first shipping product on the .13 process. Rumors are that IBM had a bit of trouble with yields at first.
Well, he's just Avie parachuting in for fun on coffee breaks - no harm done.
<strong>
Ha! If I had that much money I wouldn't be here yacking about the next PowerMac.
Mostly I hang out here 'cuz you guys do all the legwork looking for the next little tidbit of info on the 'net, and Moki occasionally graces us with some new little bit of water cooler gossip.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know, the fact that you're denying this so quickly (just like Apple sends out those cease and desist letters as soon as phots of new products appear on the net) makes me awfully suspicious.
Quick, someone open a new thread, "Confirmed, Programmer is Avie Tavenian."
Someone (above) just gave you some very good reasons why they though it wasn't gonna be 'right around the corner'... Now it seems you don't like what you hear... So I'm gonna make it easy on you... This CPU will be out VERY VERY SOON hold on to your money till it comes out.
<strong>Can anyone provide the specs on heat dissipation for this IBM chip and what are the possibilities of it being used in a new powerbook?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Since it was just announced when it will be announced at a conference before it is actually in production, my answer is no. There are no where near enough details given for those kind of specifications yet.
Actually, as long as you are wishing for data why not wish for the Spec numbers
Why are so many people suggesting that since we're only hearing about this new chip from IBM now, it means that we have 6 months to 2 years of waiting before it's available in quantity?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
After waiting so long for something big, it may be hard to believe it could finally be here. Or, don't expect much and you won't be disappointed. Anyway, I like your speculation. You think like I do. The odds say G5 real soon. The real speculation is how? In the PowerMac family, or a new high-end product first? Other rumors cover both of these possibilities.
After waiting so long for something big, it may be hard to believe it could finally be here. Or, don't expect much and you won't be disappointed. Anyway, I like your speculation. You think like I do. The odds say G5 real soon. The real speculation is how? </strong><hr></blockquote>
I think only if "real soon" is defined as "a year or so"
hey, do it more often, and you'll increase your chances of being right </strong><hr></blockquote>
Really? Where's the Motorola G4.5 you promised?*
But hey, the 750FX was announced at the 2001 MPF, 6 months before it was available. Let's hope it's the same here! I would be delighted, not surprised if it was 6 months left. 12 months would be not surprised also.
Barto
*Of course moki was presenting it as water cooler gossip, and didn't promise anything. I'm just kidding around.
<strong>New chips don't fall from the skies. Now we have an announcement. We'll maybe have working chips in 6 months, and maybe shipping systems in 12.
G-News</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not to disagree with you (or Moki for that matter), as I respect you both...but I repeat the original question at the top of my earlier diatribe:
[quote]Originally posted by Ensoniq:
<strong>Why are so many people suggesting that since we're only hearing about this new chip from IBM now, it means that we have 6 months to 2 years of waiting before it's available in quantity?
Is there any law that says that IBM MUST announce a new chip to the world long before it's being fabbed? IBM is ALREADY producing chips in their new plant. Who can say for certain that the chips being built there ARE NOT this 64-bit CPU?"</strong><hr></blockquote>
The specs of this upcoming chip look to almost everyone as if they were custom designed for Apple...to fit every need Jobs et al would demand from IBM to give them a persuasive reason to drop Motorola. Though some speculate IBM may have designed this on their own for their own use in their own servers, I think the specs are far too Apple-ish to believe that.
So if we can agree that this is the Motorola-killer Apple has been wishing for, and that Apple will most likely be the #1 customer for this chip, why can't we believe Apple was aware of this chip long ago, and involved in its design? And if we buy that, then why would it be impossible to believe that this chip is DONE, and currently in production?
Again...what law requires that IBM announce this BEFORE it's being produced? There is just as much possibility that it will be shipping BEFORE the October 13th microprocessor conference as there is that it won't be.
Some will say my logic goes against "what's been done before" regarding processor announcements. But what company is more likely to be involved in doing things "different" than the past than Apple...
Why are so many people suggesting that since we're only hearing about this new chip from IBM now, it means that we have 6 months to 2 years of waiting before it's available in quantity?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Personally, I'm suggesting that because IBM has to make 15 October interesting. Every conference, microprocessor or otherwise, they put their reputation on the line. People come from all over the world to see these presentations and hear the speaches. Honestly, would those tech heads feel good to hear a speech about "Here's the specs on the processor that Apple started shipping last month"?
I suggest 6 months because that seems to be a good duration of time for Intel / AMD to start talking about chips with reviewers, press and conferences before mass release. I'm suggesting 2 years because IBM doesn't specialize in processors, they have general purpose fabs and problems may arise. IBM certainly has the expertise to do this eventually, but there may be some stumbling blocks along the way. More than 2 years out, the project will be cancelled and perhaps a derivative will be begun.
Is there a law it has to be 6-24 months? No. Does it make sense? Yes. Can it be less than 6? Yes, but it'd tick a lot of people off. Can it be more than 24? Yes, but it'd tick a lot of people off, so they'd have to deliver better than promised.
Comments
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, Im sure he wants to be the first to tell the world, but thats not going to happend before the conference. IBM is not going to say the chip is mean to be the next-gen mac CPU.
<strong>What if IBM released it's own tower with this chip, with OS X in it? Na!</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're not too far off. I would bet that IBM uses this chip themselves for Linux and/or AIX systems. If Apple can use it too, so much the better - we don't know enough at the moment to tell exactly who this is intended for (well, anybody IBM can get to use it, but just who they are is what we don't know).
Maybe this chip from IBM will be the G6 and maybe there is a Motorola G5 for Apple. I could see a scenario where Apple got angry (in particular, Mr. Jobs) because Motorola had to rev the G5 several times causing new powermac delays. This might have resulted in a falling out between Motorola and Apple and that?s why we have been hearing that Motorola is not going to be making anymore processors for macs.
Why are so many people suggesting that since we're only hearing about this new chip from IBM now, it means that we have 6 months to 2 years of waiting before it's available in quantity?
Is there any law that says that IBM MUST announce a new chip to the world long before it's being fabbed? IBM is ALREADY producing chips in their new plant. Who can say for certain that the chips being built there ARE NOT this 64-bit CPU?
People have been complaining about the PowerMac series for well over a year now. Where is the DDR? Where is the Firewire 2? Why is Apple only releasing tiny little speed bumps every few months when it appears as if the PowerMac line is falling apart, taking Apple's professional market with it?
Some people seem to think that these negligable updates are 100% a result of Motorola being unable to produce big speed jumps in the G4. Motorola can't put out, so Apple is stuck looking silly at each new release...so much so that Apple introduces it's Dual 1 GHz machine as a quiet press release, without any special fanfare.
"Poor Apple...being led to slaughter by Motorola. Apple is going out of business...Apple is doomed unless they switch to x86", etc.
I am not one who believes in the two proceeding paragraphs above. Do I agree that Motorola has hog-tied Apple for far too long? Absolutely! Does Steve Jobs seem to be the kind of guy who would let Motorola hold Apple down while they drown in bad press and mediocre performance gains for 2 years? Absolutely not!
The Xserve was announced 3 months ago...you can be sure that it was in development for a year or more before it was ever introduced. That means that Apple began working on their "DDR hack" a long time ago, and yet it has never made it to any of the current PowerMac G4 machines? Why? Can we really believe Apple is that "stupid"?
And what about the MacWorld SF "Beyond the rumor sites...way beyond!" tagline that everyone ripped Apple about after a fairly uneventful MacWorld had ended? Either Apple was just blowing smoke up our collective arses, or it actually meant something and no one caught on to it.
I believe Apple was preparing to announce the next PowerMac machine at that MacWorld. Extra time had been scheduled for the keynote. They had something they felt was pretty awesome ready to go. My guess is that it was a PowerMac using the same DDR technology the Xserve uses. A new motherboard with other special treats on it...and maybe, just maybe, a new chip. The mythical "G5"...although we'll never really know.
But then Apple pulled it back at the very last minute. The extra time scheduled for the keynote was not used, and everyone walked away wondering what went wrong...Apple had promised something "way beyond the rumor sites" and left the faithful with only a dazed and confused look in our eyes.
I simply refuse to believe that Apple has not been working on projects behind closed doors and under tight NDA that far surpass a simple speed bump. Hell, the machines have remained practically unchanged except for the "QuickSilver" case alterations and incremental speed bumps for a long time!
In recent months, Apple has bought a stable of video editing software products...on top of acquiring Raycer and Zayante quite a while back. Has Apple spent millions of dollars to acquire all of this technology to be used in a Dual 1.4 GHz PowerMac G4? Is that the pinnacle Apple has been working toward the last 2 years? Impossible...no one with any logical thinking can truly believe that.
So what does all of the above tell us? There are some people in these forums will say it means that Apple, with all their money and engineers and technology buyouts, have achieved almost NOTHING revolutionary in the last two years, and knowingly allowed Motorola to drown them.
*** OR ***
Apple has something up it's sleeve...and the fact that the rumor sites don't have "sources" telling us all the details doesn't mean we won't end up as shocked in a few weeks as we were when the eMac appeared out of the blue...and the iPod...and the original iMac.
Let's not ignore the obvious. Apple has a long term relationship with IBM. This new processor came as a shock to us, the general public. "Wow...64-bit w/AltiVec and 32-bit PPC compatibility? Someone should make sure Apple knows about this!" Apple knew about it...IBM would have made certain of it...and that easily could have been 6 months to a year ago.
Plenty of time for development and testing on early prototypes. Plenty of time to build a new motherboard, as seen on eBay. Plenty of time to design a number of prototype cases, images Apple requested be taken off all the Mac sites recently. Plenty of time to figure out how to properly cool the thing with a huge heat sink and front-mounted vents on the case. Maybe even enough time to be ready to announce/release the item at LAST year's MacWorld San Francisco.
But what if some problems came up right before the announcement? Bug in the chip design? Problems in the fabrication process? Yields too low for mass consumption? All the same horrors that Apple experienced in the initial release of Motorola's G4. Apple couldn't possibly afford to go through all that again. The bad press would destroy them.
So what happens? They pull the announcement, and decide to continue work and resolve all the problems and get production up to speed before they risk another public scandal. IBM tells them they have a new production facility coming online shortly that will guarantee the quality and quantity of parts Apple needs to be insured a successful announcement. So much to Job's dismay, after the embarassing "Beyond the rumor sites" lead-in, they pull back and wait until the time is right.
With a number of lackluster G4 speed bumps in a row, the time certainly seems right. With OS X 10.2 ready for release, the time certainly seems right. With the eMac and iMac all with G4s and specs that are far too close to the professional machines, the time certainly seems right. With a slew of recently purchased video-related products begging for an amazing machine to act as their platform, the time certainly seems right.
Some will claim that the Xserve release is a solid indicator that nothing "special" is coming. Why would Apple release a server platform on "old" technology is something newer was so close? Talk to real server admins. They don't use cutting-edge technology as soon as it's released. They use what they know works. And Dual G4 systems, especially those than can be clustered in racks, is what they need. The Xserve shows us exactly what Apple COULD have given us in the PowerMac G4 at least 6 months ago, but mysteriously held back on. Why?
This is speculation...I am not an expert, and I don't claim to know more than anyone else. Some will find my comments to be intriguing, and at least a logical possibility, however remote. Others will decide they need a shovel to get out from under the steaming pile I've left here.
Regardless of your viewpoint, I still believe that Apple is smarter than we think, and amazingly tight lipped, which leads into the hunger we have for these rumor sites. But all signs do seem to point to every Mac fan considering IBM to be our new best friend in the near future.
I'll let the rest of you continue debating how close that future is...
[ /End Heated Speculation ]
-- Ensoniq
[ 08-10-2002: Message edited by: Ensoniq ]</p>
<strong>People have been complaining about the PowerMac series for well over a year now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
People began complaining about the PowerMac line ever since Apple (or Motorola) backpeddled from the 500MHz G4 to 450MHz G4. (Fall '99!!!)
Screed
[ 08-10-2002: Message edited by: sCreeD ]</p>
<hr></blockquote>
Gamblor, also don't forget that 750Fx was IBM's first shipping product on the .13 process. Rumors are that IBM had a bit of trouble with yields at first.
PS I have your iPod. MWUAHAHAHA
Originally posted by OverToasty:
Well, he's just Avie parachuting in for fun on coffee breaks - no harm done.
<strong>
Ha! If I had that much money I wouldn't be here yacking about the next PowerMac.
Mostly I hang out here 'cuz you guys do all the legwork looking for the next little tidbit of info on the 'net, and Moki occasionally graces us with some new little bit of water cooler gossip.
I don't know, the fact that you're denying this so quickly (just like Apple sends out those cease and desist letters as soon as phots of new products appear on the net) makes me awfully suspicious.
Quick, someone open a new thread, "Confirmed, Programmer is Avie Tavenian."
[ 08-10-2002: Message edited by: Ptrash ]</p>
<strong>
O and A,
Someone (above) just gave you some very good reasons why they though it wasn't gonna be 'right around the corner'... Now it seems you don't like what you hear... So I'm gonna make it easy on you... This CPU will be out VERY VERY SOON hold on to your money till it comes out.
Is that better?
D</strong><hr></blockquote>
The only thing that exists is the announcement that this chip will be announced.
Barto
<strong>Can anyone provide the specs on heat dissipation for this IBM chip and what are the possibilities of it being used in a new powerbook?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Since it was just announced when it will be announced at a conference before it is actually in production, my answer is no. There are no where near enough details given for those kind of specifications yet.
Actually, as long as you are wishing for data why not wish for the Spec numbers
<strong>
Why are so many people suggesting that since we're only hearing about this new chip from IBM now, it means that we have 6 months to 2 years of waiting before it's available in quantity?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
After waiting so long for something big, it may be hard to believe it could finally be here. Or, don't expect much and you won't be disappointed. Anyway, I like your speculation. You think like I do. The odds say G5 real soon. The real speculation is how? In the PowerMac family, or a new high-end product first? Other rumors cover both of these possibilities.
<strong>
After waiting so long for something big, it may be hard to believe it could finally be here. Or, don't expect much and you won't be disappointed. Anyway, I like your speculation. You think like I do. The odds say G5 real soon. The real speculation is how? </strong><hr></blockquote>
I think only if "real soon" is defined as "a year or so"
New chips don't fall from the skies. Now we have an announcement. We'll maybe have working chips in 6 months, and maybe shipping systems in 12.
I wouldn't bet on that chip coming anytime soon, as in "soon - by the end of the year".
G-News
<strong>Unbelievable, but I happen to agree with moki.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
hey, do it more often, and you'll increase your chances of being right
<strong>
hey, do it more often, and you'll increase your chances of being right
Really? Where's the Motorola G4.5 you promised?*
But hey, the 750FX was announced at the 2001 MPF, 6 months before it was available. Let's hope it's the same here! I would be delighted, not surprised if it was 6 months left. 12 months would be not surprised also.
Barto
*Of course moki was presenting it as water cooler gossip, and didn't promise anything. I'm just kidding around.
<strong>New chips don't fall from the skies. Now we have an announcement. We'll maybe have working chips in 6 months, and maybe shipping systems in 12.
G-News</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not to disagree with you (or Moki for that matter), as I respect you both...but I repeat the original question at the top of my earlier diatribe:
[quote]Originally posted by Ensoniq:
<strong>Why are so many people suggesting that since we're only hearing about this new chip from IBM now, it means that we have 6 months to 2 years of waiting before it's available in quantity?
Is there any law that says that IBM MUST announce a new chip to the world long before it's being fabbed? IBM is ALREADY producing chips in their new plant. Who can say for certain that the chips being built there ARE NOT this 64-bit CPU?"</strong><hr></blockquote>
The specs of this upcoming chip look to almost everyone as if they were custom designed for Apple...to fit every need Jobs et al would demand from IBM to give them a persuasive reason to drop Motorola. Though some speculate IBM may have designed this on their own for their own use in their own servers, I think the specs are far too Apple-ish to believe that.
So if we can agree that this is the Motorola-killer Apple has been wishing for, and that Apple will most likely be the #1 customer for this chip, why can't we believe Apple was aware of this chip long ago, and involved in its design? And if we buy that, then why would it be impossible to believe that this chip is DONE, and currently in production?
Again...what law requires that IBM announce this BEFORE it's being produced? There is just as much possibility that it will be shipping BEFORE the October 13th microprocessor conference as there is that it won't be.
Some will say my logic goes against "what's been done before" regarding processor announcements. But what company is more likely to be involved in doing things "different" than the past than Apple...
-- Ensoniq
[ 08-11-2002: Message edited by: Ensoniq ]</p>
<strong>
Why are so many people suggesting that since we're only hearing about this new chip from IBM now, it means that we have 6 months to 2 years of waiting before it's available in quantity?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Personally, I'm suggesting that because IBM has to make 15 October interesting. Every conference, microprocessor or otherwise, they put their reputation on the line. People come from all over the world to see these presentations and hear the speaches. Honestly, would those tech heads feel good to hear a speech about "Here's the specs on the processor that Apple started shipping last month"?
I suggest 6 months because that seems to be a good duration of time for Intel / AMD to start talking about chips with reviewers, press and conferences before mass release. I'm suggesting 2 years because IBM doesn't specialize in processors, they have general purpose fabs and problems may arise. IBM certainly has the expertise to do this eventually, but there may be some stumbling blocks along the way. More than 2 years out, the project will be cancelled and perhaps a derivative will be begun.
Is there a law it has to be 6-24 months? No. Does it make sense? Yes. Can it be less than 6? Yes, but it'd tick a lot of people off. Can it be more than 24? Yes, but it'd tick a lot of people off, so they'd have to deliver better than promised.
Mmm. tasty!