US could hit Russia with export rule that killed Huawei, banning US tech

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  • Reply 61 of 193
    robabarobaba Posts: 228member
    genovelle said:
    tmay said:
    danox said:
    Weak. 

    Gotta love the pundits Talking up this cop out like it’s something amazing. 

    America is supposed to be the international policeman. Walking softly but carrying a big stick to use when necessary. 

    Instead of defending freedom, we stand by and watch it crushed while shaking dollar signs the the bad guys with missiles. 

    Putin has China as an ally and Russia counterfeits American goods anyway. This isn’t going to do squat unfortunately. 

    Sanctions suck. Go and do some good in the world. Add the sanctions to that. 

    You let a bully beat up other kids and he just gets worse. Not looking good. 

    God help Ukraine. 

    Ukraine had 20 years before Putin to get their corrupt selves together they didn’t, see Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania for a lesson on how it’s done….They thought they were special….
    I'll repost this;

    To the surprise of everyone in Moscow, Kyiv, Brussels, and Washington, Yanukovych’s decision to scuttle this agreement with the EU triggered mass demonstrations in Ukraine again, bringing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians into the streets in what would become known as the Euromaidan or “Revolution of Dignity” to protest Yanukovych’s turn away from the democratic West. The street protests lasted several weeks, punctuated by the killing of dozens of peaceful protestors by Yanukovych’s government, the eventual collapse of that government and Yanukovych’s flight to Russia in February 2014, and a new pro-Western government taking power in Kyiv. Putin had “lost” Ukraine for the second time in a decade.
    Yeah, having that shot at democracy in 2014 hasn't worked out perfectly, but it is evident that Ukraine wants to succeed. Putin can't allow that, hence, the invasion.
    Putin has succeeded in further dividing the US and helping diminish us as a beacon for democracy, so he is attempting to use this moment in time to make his move. 
    When you have a President who's foreign policy has been a complete disaster, it makes sense Putin would make his move for Ukraine. Putin is essentially playing chess while Biden is playing checkers. Putin was probably laughing histerically as Biden announced the sanctions that will do nothing to stop Russia. 
    Yes, we would be soooo much better off with Putins Puppet in office.  I’m sure that any day now the former guy would have begun pulling strings. /s
    tmay
  • Reply 62 of 193
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,453member
    genovelle said:
    tmay said:
    danox said:
    Weak. 

    Gotta love the pundits Talking up this cop out like it’s something amazing. 

    America is supposed to be the international policeman. Walking softly but carrying a big stick to use when necessary. 

    Instead of defending freedom, we stand by and watch it crushed while shaking dollar signs the the bad guys with missiles. 

    Putin has China as an ally and Russia counterfeits American goods anyway. This isn’t going to do squat unfortunately. 

    Sanctions suck. Go and do some good in the world. Add the sanctions to that. 

    You let a bully beat up other kids and he just gets worse. Not looking good. 

    God help Ukraine. 

    Ukraine had 20 years before Putin to get their corrupt selves together they didn’t, see Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania for a lesson on how it’s done….They thought they were special….
    I'll repost this;

    To the surprise of everyone in Moscow, Kyiv, Brussels, and Washington, Yanukovych’s decision to scuttle this agreement with the EU triggered mass demonstrations in Ukraine again, bringing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians into the streets in what would become known as the Euromaidan or “Revolution of Dignity” to protest Yanukovych’s turn away from the democratic West. The street protests lasted several weeks, punctuated by the killing of dozens of peaceful protestors by Yanukovych’s government, the eventual collapse of that government and Yanukovych’s flight to Russia in February 2014, and a new pro-Western government taking power in Kyiv. Putin had “lost” Ukraine for the second time in a decade.
    Yeah, having that shot at democracy in 2014 hasn't worked out perfectly, but it is evident that Ukraine wants to succeed. Putin can't allow that, hence, the invasion.
    Putin has succeeded in further dividing the US and helping diminish us as a beacon for democracy, so he is attempting to use this moment in time to make his move. 
    When you have a President who's foreign policy has been a complete disaster, it makes sense Putin would make his move for Ukraine. Putin is essentially playing chess while Biden is playing checkers. Putin was probably laughing histerically as Biden announced the sanctions that will do nothing to stop Russia. 
    Compared to the previous Trump administration, Biden's administration is hitting nothing but home runs. But of course, Biden did have to clean up the mess that Trump left...

    Thanks for playing though.
    qwerty52
  • Reply 63 of 193
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,969member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    C5The extraterritorial sanctions did not 'kill' Huawei. Far from it. ForThey have done untold damage to US semiconductor interests.

    At most they threw a spanner into the works of Huawei's 5G and Kirin roadmap in the i8 short term.

    So short that Huawei has already gone on record to say they will be back in smartphone business next year and I'd wager without US technology in its processor supply chain.

    They have also confirmed new silicon for this year but no one knows what it will be. Possibly 5G related.

    https://www.androidheadlines.com/2022/01/huawei-hisilicon-chips-comeback-2022.html

    Huawei is investing in every single link of the semiconductor supply chain too and China as a whole has accelerated its national semiconductor plans.

    It is rumoured that they already have two exascale computers.

    https://www.nextplatform.com/2021/10/26/china-has-already-reached-exascale-on-two-separate-systems/

    Whatever advances Chinese companies make are sure to find their way to purchasers in Russia.

    Huawei has veered full force into the automotive market with latest rumours pointing to a multi billion dollar investment from a major German car company for it to use Huawei's self driving technology.

    https://interestingengineering.com/volkswagen-huawei-self-driving

    Restricting Android use would simply put even more wind under the wings of HarmonyOS.


    U.S. Semiconductor interests are not "damaged" by the sanctions of Huawei, nor have they done "untold damage" to U.S. Semiconductor Interests. You are free to link to show how that is true or not.

    As for the link to VW considering Huawei self driving, the article was pretty vague about that actually happening, but sure, maybe VW does want to do that. Still, there are already better self driving systems available that VW could license, and given the fact that Tesla's FSD is decidedly L2 capable, there isn't much needed to surpass Tesla.
     
    HiSilicon has no leading edge fab access, and the article that you linked to acknowledged that fact. You need to do better if you are going to convince anyone of a Huawei phone comeback with HiSilicon.

    Also, HarmonyOS 2.0 is still primarily AndroidOS, but sure, maybe that will change in HarmonyOS 3.0. 

    I do hope that China does attempt to ship technology to Russia, so that the West can take even more stringent action to reduce or prevent that transfer.
    No damage you say?

    https://www.fierceelectronics.com/electronics/major-semi-trade-groups-blast-trump-crackdown-huawei

    That's billions of dollars annually just from Huawei. Would you really like to see all of Russia moving purchases into China?

    What would that do to US interests?

    The US is limping along with some revenues from Huawei through licencing. Once Huawei has re-jigged it's supply chain, it will simply erradicate those US companies from the chain and send those billions into the pockets of US competitors.

    Those references to HiSilicon are not mine. They came directly from Huawei.

    What action could the West take against China transferring its own technology to Russia for strategic and financial gain?
    Thanks for posting a link from 18 months ago. 

    China has almost no production of computing devices, SOC's, CPU's, and GPU's at 10 nm, and none under that, so no, China isn't going to be able to provide those devices to Russia.

    More to the point, I'm guessing that the EU is also going to tighten its policies on Semiconductor sales to Russia.
    12,18,24... It doesn't matter how many months. The damage is done.

    How long do you think it takes to build out US technology from a design?

    How long do you think it takes to re-jig a supply chain?

    You claimed there was no damage. Associations directly representing US semi conductor interests (and thousands of companies, disagree with you).

    10nm? What are you talking about? Over 90% of chip production is at 14nm or higher. China is very much in the game and ramping capacity just like everyone else.

    Ah! And the EU set out its technology independence roadmap before the Huawei issue. Yes, to cut back it's reliance on the US.

    Can you see a pattern emerging here?

    And by the way, Huawei has already locked down contracts with EU companies to offset some lost supplies from the US.
    Funny, but you seem to be reiterating a fact that everyone in the industry is stating; that there needs to be more resilience in the industry by building fabs in strategic locations to prevent supply chain disasters. Of course China wants to make more devices at lager nodes, but those aren't the preferred devices for leading edge phones, missiles, and aircraft, hence why the U.S. lured TSMC to Arizona to build a 5nm fab, to assure the U.S. Military that they would have a supply just in case China invades Taiwan in the future.
    Sorry but missiles and aircraft aren't using the latest nodes for mission critical equipment. They use mature nodes and mature SoCs with mature software support 

    Not even self driving cars truly need the latest process nodes.

    Tell me what advantages a 5nm process would bring to a single use missile.

    As I said, over 90% of chip manufacturing is on mature nodes and for very good reason.
    GeorgeBMacJWSC
  • Reply 64 of 193
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    ... Stupid.   Very, very stupid.
    The post above is chock full of misinformation.
    Given the many times that I have countered George since he has been here, I'll spare you the details. Do your own searches on the details.
    It's actually entertaining whenever GBM speaks. I always wonder how he's going to defend brutal dictatorships, and he always manages. I would like to have seen him defend the dictatorships back around 1940.

    I wish websites like this would have a way we could block certain users from being seen by us. I know a few people would block me, but I think GBM would take top spot.

    I don;t defend "brutal dictatorships".
    But I do object to instigating totally unnecessary wars.

    All we have to do is guarantee that NATO will not threaten Russia by moving into (another of) its neighbor(s).
    But, we instead favor war.   Economic war (at least for us).  But still, war.

    Who is going to pay for this war of ours?   As usual, it will be us.

    But, I am sorry if the truth does not support your war mongering imperialism.  Perhaps it is YOU that should be blocked?
    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2022-02-21/chinas-ukraine-crisis?utm_campaign=tw_daily_soc&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_posts

    The Ukraine crisis is primarily a standoff between Russia and the West, but off to the side, another player stands awkwardly: China. Beijing has tried to walk a fine line on Ukraine. On one hand, it has taken Russia’s side, blaming NATO expansion for causing the crisis and alleging that U.S. predictions of an imminent invasion are aggravating it. On the other hand, especially as the risk of military conflict has grown, it has called for diplomacy over war. 

    If Beijing had its way, it would maintain strong ties with Moscow, safeguard its trade relationship with Ukraine, keep the EU in its economic orbit, and avoid the spillover from U.S. and EU sanctions on Moscow—all while preventing relations with the United States from significantly deteriorating. Securing any one of these objectives may well be possible. Achieving all of them is not. 

    If Russia invades Ukraine, Beijing could throw Moscow a lifeline: economic relief to alleviate the effect of U.S. sanctions. But doing so would damage Chinese relations with Europe, invite severe repercussions from Washington, and drive traditionally nonaligned countries such as India further into the arms of the West. If Beijing snubs Moscow, by contrast, it may weaken its closest strategic partnership at a time when, given deteriorating security in Asia, it is most in need of outside help.

    China should throw Russia under the bus, because Russia is already a failed state, and it wouldn't take much for it to collapse yet again. Might as well give it a push.

    We are pushing Russia and China (and a few others) together. 
    We are falling back on our last bullet:  financial sanctions  -- and we not using it wisely.   Soon they will have a work-around (actually, they probably already do).

    We should have settled this while we could.
    Well, evidently it is being settled, as we speak, and I would love Russia and China being forced together, with the end result that the U.S., EU, NATO, and our Indo-Pacific Allies are all on the same page in containing both countries.

    How cool would that be!

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/2/22/2081709/-Russia-s-economy-can-t-handle-a-war-but-Putin-can-t-handle-the-Russian-economy

    It won't be "both countries".   It will be a world wide cold war.   Again.
    Anybody who wants that is a fool.

    The first one was created and fed by Russia trying to propagate communism around the world.
    They openly admitted that.
    This one will be created and fed by the U.S. trying to propagate democracy around the world.
    We openly admit that.

    It doesn't matter who does it:  Either way the world suffers.

    Putin started this latest conflict, and the West will have to finish it.

    China can step out of the way, throw Russia under the bus, or double down on its authoritarian alliance. Either way, Putin is dealing with a hell of a large body of countries that are economically much more powerful than Russia, and are now working together against Putin.

    Nope!  Hillary started this conflict when she promised Ukraine a membership in NATO if they sided with us against Russia.

    She must have forgotten that countries don't like it when you put missiles on their border aimed at them.

    This coalition?  Let's see how the EU feels when their houses start getting cold (or us when we're paying $4+ dollars for gas).  Most of them have been saying:  let's not go there.  Yes, they'll placate us.  To a point.  But, they won't get sucked into another Iraq war.

    You seem to think we are all powerful and can push whomever we want around. Hopefully Biden knows better.
    Of course, you didn't state the facts; Hillary never promised Ukraine membership.

    US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has said that the door to Nato remains open for Ukraine. 

    Speaking after arriving in the capital, Kiev, she said Ukraine had the right to choose its own alliances.

    She will travel to Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan on a tour of former Soviet states, as well as visiting Poland.

    The trip, announced over a month ago, is intended to reaffirm relations with ex-Soviet states, after a renewal of ties between Washington and Moscow.


    You obviously don't understand how membership to NATO works. Secretary of State Clinton could have advised Ukraine to seek NATO membership, sure, but it is up to NATO to allow that, not Secretary of State Clinton. Either way, Ukraine is not qualified to apply, yet anyway.

    https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/what-putin-fears-most/

    In a very clear pattern, Moscow’s complaints about NATO spike after democratic breakthroughs. While the tragic invasions and occupations of Georgia and Ukraine have secured Putin a de facto veto over their NATO aspirations, since the alliance would never admit a country under partial occupation by Russian forces, this fact undermines Putin’s claim that the current invasion is aimed at NATO membership.

    You seem to think that the people of the EU, NATO, and the Indo-Pacific have no interest in seeing a nascent democracy survive invasion by a brutal authoritarian power. Biden isn't going to budge on Ukraine independence.

    My own opinion is that Russia can't have a working democracy on its border; the contrast between success and failures would be obvious.

    But U.S.-Russian relations deteriorated ever further in 2014, again because of new democratic expansion. The next democratic mobilization to threaten Putin happened a second time in Ukraine in 2013–14. After the Orange Revolution in 2004, Putin did not invade Ukraine, but wielded other instruments of influence to help his protégé, Viktor Yanukovych, narrowly win the Ukrainian presidencysix years later. Yanukovych, however, turned out not to be a loyal Kremlin servant, but tried to cultivate ties with both Russia and the West. Putin finally compelled Yanukovych to make a choice, and the Ukrainian president chose Russia in the fall of 2013 when he reneged on signing an EU association agreement in favor of membership in Russia’s Eurasian Economic Union.

    To the surprise of everyone in Moscow, Kyiv, Brussels, and Washington, Yanukovych’s decision to scuttle this agreement with the EU triggered mass demonstrations in Ukraine again, bringing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians into the streets in what would become known as the Euromaidan or “Revolution of Dignity” to protest Yanukovych’s turn away from the democratic West. The street protests lasted several weeks, punctuated by the killing of dozens of peaceful protestors by Yanukovych’s government, the eventual collapse of that government and Yanukovych’s flight to Russia in February 2014, and a new pro-Western government taking power in Kyiv. Putin had “lost” Ukraine for the second time in a decade.


    "Wanna end the invasion?", "Offer every Russian soldier defecting, citizenship in the EU"

    Yeah, because Russia is a failed state, of course people want what the EU provides; a better life.

    Twisting words doesn't change facts:  Hillary -- and probably others -- told Ukraine "Sure!  You can join NATO!".   And, to this day, that's the problem:  They are STILL telling them that they can join NATO -- and Ukraine is not saying "No Thank You".

    So Russia knows that it's just a matter of time (and maybe not a lot of it) before NATO missiles show up at their doorstep -- which is something they would not tolerate.  (And neither did we when it happened to us)

    So, the conversation goes like this:
    Russia:   "We cannot accept Ukraine joining NATO.  We cannot defend ourselves against NATO missiles if that happens."
    U.S.:   "That's a 'non-starter'.   But let's negotiate."
    Russia:   "We'll try.  But the issue remains:  Ukraine cannot threaten us by joining NATO"
    U.S.:   "We will not block Ukraine from joining NATO.  But don't worry.  It won't happen right away"
    Russia:   "That's not good enough.  Guarantee us that will never happen and this situation goes away.|
    U.S.:   Starts a disinformation campaign trying to convince the world Russia wants to invade Ukraine.

    Again, in  the same situation in 1960, the U.S. told Russia:  "If you put your missiles in Cuba we go to war".  And, by the way, we did invade Cuba.  But, much to our embarrassment, the invasion failed.


    edited February 2022 JWSC
  • Reply 65 of 193
    tmay said:
    JWSC said:
    tmay said:
    JWSC said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    ... Stupid.   Very, very stupid.
    The post above is chock full of misinformation.
    Given the many times that I have countered George since he has been here, I'll spare you the details. Do your own searches on the details.
    It's actually entertaining whenever GBM speaks. I always wonder how he's going to defend brutal dictatorships, and he always manages. I would like to have seen him defend the dictatorships back around 1940.

    I wish websites like this would have a way we could block certain users from being seen by us. I know a few people would block me, but I think GBM would take top spot.

    I don;t defend "brutal dictatorships".
    But I do object to instigating totally unnecessary wars.

    All we have to do is guarantee that NATO will not threaten Russia by moving into (another of) its neighbor(s).
    But, we instead favor war.   Economic war (at least for us).  But still, war.

    Who is going to pay for this war of ours?   As usual, it will be us.

    But, I am sorry if the truth does not support your war mongering imperialism.  Perhaps it is YOU that should be blocked?
    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2022-02-21/chinas-ukraine-crisis?utm_campaign=tw_daily_soc&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_posts

    The Ukraine crisis is primarily a standoff between Russia and the West, but off to the side, another player stands awkwardly: China. Beijing has tried to walk a fine line on Ukraine. On one hand, it has taken Russia’s side, blaming NATO expansion for causing the crisis and alleging that U.S. predictions of an imminent invasion are aggravating it. On the other hand, especially as the risk of military conflict has grown, it has called for diplomacy over war. 

    If Beijing had its way, it would maintain strong ties with Moscow, safeguard its trade relationship with Ukraine, keep the EU in its economic orbit, and avoid the spillover from U.S. and EU sanctions on Moscow—all while preventing relations with the United States from significantly deteriorating. Securing any one of these objectives may well be possible. Achieving all of them is not. 

    If Russia invades Ukraine, Beijing could throw Moscow a lifeline: economic relief to alleviate the effect of U.S. sanctions. But doing so would damage Chinese relations with Europe, invite severe repercussions from Washington, and drive traditionally nonaligned countries such as India further into the arms of the West. If Beijing snubs Moscow, by contrast, it may weaken its closest strategic partnership at a time when, given deteriorating security in Asia, it is most in need of outside help.

    China should throw Russia under the bus, because Russia is already a failed state, and it wouldn't take much for it to collapse yet again. Might as well give it a push.

    We are pushing Russia and China (and a few others) together. 
    We are falling back on our last bullet:  financial sanctions  -- and we not using it wisely.   Soon they will have a work-around (actually, they probably already do).

    We should have settled this while we could.
    As all of you know, I rarely agree with George. But in the above statement he is absolutely right.  The bombastic antagonism we have we heard coming from the US and UK has only exacerbated an already tense situation. We are pushing our adversaries together while implementing ineffective policies.

    It was not inevitable that Putin would choose to invade. But from a political standpoint we pushed him into it. We armed and provided intelligence to an adversarial government along their border. We advocated that the Ukraine stand it’s ground and attempt to regain control of the Russian language dominated regions. In doing so we provided political ammunition to Putin to make the case to the Russian people that Ukraine was a threat. It’s a spectacular fail.

    And why should we care about a spat between two kleptocratic regimes that could care less about their own citizens.  All we have done is help to fan the flames of war, sans evidence (you just have to trust us - right), which will end up getting those caught in the middle killed. If two decades of intelligence failure isn’t enough to teach us to beware of government spokespeople, I don’t know what is.
    None of what you stated is accurate, but please, keep digging.

    This whole "the West made Putin do it" meme is complete and utter bullshit.

    Guess what Russia was doing up until yesterday in those "Russian Language Dominated regions"? Did you guess false flag operations that were so poorly thought out, that the video's that were posted became the evidence of the false flag operations. 

    https://www.jpost.com/international/article-698132

    Pro-Russia forces commit 'false flag' op, shelling from civilian areas - Ukraine MoD

    "In the absence of any aggressive action by Ukrainian defenders, the invaders themselves blow up infrastructure facilities in the occupied territories and carry out chaotic shelling of settlements."

    Oh yeah, the West made them do that...
    Perhaps you are aware that Russia, the Ukraine, the US and the UK are waging vociferous disinformation campaigns through their various media mouthpieces.  At this point I trust the NYT or WaPo no more than TASS.  They all repeat what their government contacts tell them without doing any independent investigation.
    ...

    I seem to remember playing this game once before, not too long ago.
    I follow a lot of different independent journalists, from many different countries. Guess what I found out?
      
    Excepting authoritarians, no on likes Putin. Given that Russian citizens don't really have a choice, it's hard to imagine anyone liking Putin at all. Go figure.
    "I seem to remember playing this game once before, not too long ago."
    You missed the entire point of that thread:  it had nothing to do with Russia or Putin.
    It was about a U.S. disinformation campaign to sell a war it wanted to start.

    cat52
  • Reply 66 of 193
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    JWSC said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    ... Stupid.   Very, very stupid.
    The post above is chock full of misinformation.
    Given the many times that I have countered George since he has been here, I'll spare you the details. Do your own searches on the details.
    It's actually entertaining whenever GBM speaks. I always wonder how he's going to defend brutal dictatorships, and he always manages. I would like to have seen him defend the dictatorships back around 1940.

    I wish websites like this would have a way we could block certain users from being seen by us. I know a few people would block me, but I think GBM would take top spot.

    I don;t defend "brutal dictatorships".
    But I do object to instigating totally unnecessary wars.

    All we have to do is guarantee that NATO will not threaten Russia by moving into (another of) its neighbor(s).
    But, we instead favor war.   Economic war (at least for us).  But still, war.

    Who is going to pay for this war of ours?   As usual, it will be us.

    But, I am sorry if the truth does not support your war mongering imperialism.  Perhaps it is YOU that should be blocked?
    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2022-02-21/chinas-ukraine-crisis?utm_campaign=tw_daily_soc&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_posts

    The Ukraine crisis is primarily a standoff between Russia and the West, but off to the side, another player stands awkwardly: China. Beijing has tried to walk a fine line on Ukraine. On one hand, it has taken Russia’s side, blaming NATO expansion for causing the crisis and alleging that U.S. predictions of an imminent invasion are aggravating it. On the other hand, especially as the risk of military conflict has grown, it has called for diplomacy over war. 

    If Beijing had its way, it would maintain strong ties with Moscow, safeguard its trade relationship with Ukraine, keep the EU in its economic orbit, and avoid the spillover from U.S. and EU sanctions on Moscow—all while preventing relations with the United States from significantly deteriorating. Securing any one of these objectives may well be possible. Achieving all of them is not. 

    If Russia invades Ukraine, Beijing could throw Moscow a lifeline: economic relief to alleviate the effect of U.S. sanctions. But doing so would damage Chinese relations with Europe, invite severe repercussions from Washington, and drive traditionally nonaligned countries such as India further into the arms of the West. If Beijing snubs Moscow, by contrast, it may weaken its closest strategic partnership at a time when, given deteriorating security in Asia, it is most in need of outside help.

    China should throw Russia under the bus, because Russia is already a failed state, and it wouldn't take much for it to collapse yet again. Might as well give it a push.

    We are pushing Russia and China (and a few others) together. 
    We are falling back on our last bullet:  financial sanctions  -- and we not using it wisely.   Soon they will have a work-around (actually, they probably already do).

    We should have settled this while we could.
    As all of you know, I rarely agree with George. But in the above statement he is absolutely right.  The bombastic antagonism we have we heard coming from the US and UK has only exacerbated an already tense situation. We are pushing our adversaries together while implementing ineffective policies.

    It was not inevitable that Putin would choose to invade. But from a political standpoint we pushed him into it. We armed and provided intelligence to an adversarial government along their border. We advocated that the Ukraine stand it’s ground and attempt to regain control of the Russian language dominated regions. In doing so we provided political ammunition to Putin to make the case to the Russian people that Ukraine was a threat. It’s a spectacular fail.

    And why should we care about a spat between two kleptocratic regimes that could care less about their own citizens.  All we have done is help to fan the flames of war, sans evidence (you just have to trust us - right), which will end up getting those caught in the middle killed. If two decades of intelligence failure isn’t enough to teach us to beware of government spokespeople, I don’t know what is.
    None of what you stated is accurate, but please, keep digging.

    This whole "the West made Putin do it" meme is complete and utter bullshit.

    Guess what Russia was doing up until yesterday in those "Russian Language Dominated regions"? Did you guess false flag operations that were so poorly thought out, that the video's that were posted became the evidence of the false flag operations. 

    https://www.jpost.com/international/article-698132

    Pro-Russia forces commit 'false flag' op, shelling from civilian areas - Ukraine MoD

    "In the absence of any aggressive action by Ukrainian defenders, the invaders themselves blow up infrastructure facilities in the occupied territories and carry out chaotic shelling of settlements."

    Oh yeah, the West made them do that...

    It's the Cuban missile Crisis in reverse.   Except this time the antagonist didn't back down.
    Actually, I think that the U.S. was the protagonist in the Cuban Missle Crisis, not the antagonist, so there's that, but yeah, that would make Russia the antagonist yet again, and you are correct. This time they didn't back down.

    How wonderful for you, not so good for Russia or Ukraine.


    You seem to be confused.  Or is it intentional -- so you get to rewrite history to suit your agenda?  And, by the way, war has nothing to do with a "protagonist" -- it always take two.

    So, once again:
    1) In 1960 Russia began shipping missiles to Cuba.
    2) We told them "We cannot defend ourselves if you do that.  Either get them out and keep them out or, we go to war.
    3)  Russia backed down, turned their missile laden ships around, and promised to never put missiles in Cuba.   And, they didn't.

    This is the exact same situation but the positions are reversed with the only difference being:   We refuse to back down and are effectively pushing Russia into war.
    cat52
  • Reply 67 of 193
    danox said:
    Kuyangkoh said:
    Can we ask Russian troops as
    Peacekeepers  in our southern border??
    The Russian military are only good at killing civilians, couldn’t even beat Finland or Japan in a actual war, only after World War 2, they took land back with our blessing….
    You claim Russia is weak:
    Russia argues that it is they who won WW-II in Europe, not us.  And they have a point because, had Hitler not invaded Russia he likely would have overrun England -- meanwhile millions of Russians (including Ukrainians) died during the fighting.  Japan has no bearing on it because Japan was fighting us, not Russia.  They were moving east, not west.

    More recently, we tried and failed to dislodge ISIS from Syria and Iraq.  ISIS was not defeated till Russia and Iran stepped in.   So afterwards, we celebrated our victory.

    Do not ever underestimate the Russian bear.  It always, throughout history, ends badly.


  • Reply 68 of 193
    genovelle said:
    tmay said:
    danox said:
    Weak. 

    Gotta love the pundits Talking up this cop out like it’s something amazing. 

    America is supposed to be the international policeman. Walking softly but carrying a big stick to use when necessary. 

    Instead of defending freedom, we stand by and watch it crushed while shaking dollar signs the the bad guys with missiles. 

    Putin has China as an ally and Russia counterfeits American goods anyway. This isn’t going to do squat unfortunately. 

    Sanctions suck. Go and do some good in the world. Add the sanctions to that. 

    You let a bully beat up other kids and he just gets worse. Not looking good. 

    God help Ukraine. 

    Ukraine had 20 years before Putin to get their corrupt selves together they didn’t, see Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania for a lesson on how it’s done….They thought they were special….
    I'll repost this;

    To the surprise of everyone in Moscow, Kyiv, Brussels, and Washington, Yanukovych’s decision to scuttle this agreement with the EU triggered mass demonstrations in Ukraine again, bringing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians into the streets in what would become known as the Euromaidan or “Revolution of Dignity” to protest Yanukovych’s turn away from the democratic West. The street protests lasted several weeks, punctuated by the killing of dozens of peaceful protestors by Yanukovych’s government, the eventual collapse of that government and Yanukovych’s flight to Russia in February 2014, and a new pro-Western government taking power in Kyiv. Putin had “lost” Ukraine for the second time in a decade.
    Yeah, having that shot at democracy in 2014 hasn't worked out perfectly, but it is evident that Ukraine wants to succeed. Putin can't allow that, hence, the invasion.
    Putin has succeeded in further dividing the US and helping diminish us as a beacon for democracy, so he is attempting to use this moment in time to make his move. 
    Putin has never shown any sign of giving a damn about our democracy.  That's a hang up of those pushing democracy onto other nations -- a leftover from the selling of the Iraq war:  "Freedom for everybody!"

    In fact, Putin likely loves democracy:  He used it against us in the 2016 election.  Hillary had promised Ukraine a membership in NATO if they sided against Russia.  So, Putin used our democracy to start a smear campaign to insure Hillary lost the presidential election.  It worked.   He even tried it a second time against Biden:  The disinformation attempting to smear Biden in the lead up to the 2020 election came from Ukraine but originated from Russia. 

    edited February 2022
  • Reply 69 of 193
    From the BBC:
    "Last year, the Ukrainian ambassador to Germany, Andriy Melnyk, suggested if Ukraine was unable to join Nato, it might have to reconsider its nuclear-free status."

    So, either way, Russia ends up with a nuclear power on its doorstep threatening it.

    I find their fears and concerns to be very valid.
    What I find confusing is why we not only ignore those concerns but try to disparage them as false.

    The analogy would be a nuclear armed Cuba -- with either Russian missiles or Cuban pointed at the U.S. 
    I doubt we would just shrug and say:  "No problem!".  In 1960 we said:  "either remove them of go to war"

  • Reply 70 of 193
    tmay said:
    genovelle said:
    tmay said:
    danox said:
    Weak. 

    Gotta love the pundits Talking up this cop out like it’s something amazing. 

    America is supposed to be the international policeman. Walking softly but carrying a big stick to use when necessary. 

    Instead of defending freedom, we stand by and watch it crushed while shaking dollar signs the the bad guys with missiles. 

    Putin has China as an ally and Russia counterfeits American goods anyway. This isn’t going to do squat unfortunately. 

    Sanctions suck. Go and do some good in the world. Add the sanctions to that. 

    You let a bully beat up other kids and he just gets worse. Not looking good. 

    God help Ukraine. 

    Ukraine had 20 years before Putin to get their corrupt selves together they didn’t, see Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania for a lesson on how it’s done….They thought they were special….
    I'll repost this;

    To the surprise of everyone in Moscow, Kyiv, Brussels, and Washington, Yanukovych’s decision to scuttle this agreement with the EU triggered mass demonstrations in Ukraine again, bringing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians into the streets in what would become known as the Euromaidan or “Revolution of Dignity” to protest Yanukovych’s turn away from the democratic West. The street protests lasted several weeks, punctuated by the killing of dozens of peaceful protestors by Yanukovych’s government, the eventual collapse of that government and Yanukovych’s flight to Russia in February 2014, and a new pro-Western government taking power in Kyiv. Putin had “lost” Ukraine for the second time in a decade.
    Yeah, having that shot at democracy in 2014 hasn't worked out perfectly, but it is evident that Ukraine wants to succeed. Putin can't allow that, hence, the invasion.
    Putin has succeeded in further dividing the US and helping diminish us as a beacon for democracy, so he is attempting to use this moment in time to make his move. 
    When you have a President who's foreign policy has been a complete disaster, it makes sense Putin would make his move for Ukraine. Putin is essentially playing chess while Biden is playing checkers. Putin was probably laughing histerically as Biden announced the sanctions that will do nothing to stop Russia. 
    Compared to the previous Trump administration, Biden's administration is hitting nothing but home runs. But of course, Biden did have to clean up the mess that Trump left...

    Thanks for playing though.

    That's a pretty low bar to clear.
    And, to be honest, I doubt that Trump would have bungled the situation as badly as Biden has, so far, done.
    (And, trust me!  I am NOT a Trump fan)
    cat52
  • Reply 71 of 193
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,453member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    C5The extraterritorial sanctions did not 'kill' Huawei. Far from it. ForThey have done untold damage to US semiconductor interests.

    At most they threw a spanner into the works of Huawei's 5G and Kirin roadmap in the i8 short term.

    So short that Huawei has already gone on record to say they will be back in smartphone business next year and I'd wager without US technology in its processor supply chain.

    They have also confirmed new silicon for this year but no one knows what it will be. Possibly 5G related.

    https://www.androidheadlines.com/2022/01/huawei-hisilicon-chips-comeback-2022.html

    Huawei is investing in every single link of the semiconductor supply chain too and China as a whole has accelerated its national semiconductor plans.

    It is rumoured that they already have two exascale computers.

    https://www.nextplatform.com/2021/10/26/china-has-already-reached-exascale-on-two-separate-systems/

    Whatever advances Chinese companies make are sure to find their way to purchasers in Russia.

    Huawei has veered full force into the automotive market with latest rumours pointing to a multi billion dollar investment from a major German car company for it to use Huawei's self driving technology.

    https://interestingengineering.com/volkswagen-huawei-self-driving

    Restricting Android use would simply put even more wind under the wings of HarmonyOS.


    U.S. Semiconductor interests are not "damaged" by the sanctions of Huawei, nor have they done "untold damage" to U.S. Semiconductor Interests. You are free to link to show how that is true or not.

    As for the link to VW considering Huawei self driving, the article was pretty vague about that actually happening, but sure, maybe VW does want to do that. Still, there are already better self driving systems available that VW could license, and given the fact that Tesla's FSD is decidedly L2 capable, there isn't much needed to surpass Tesla.
     
    HiSilicon has no leading edge fab access, and the article that you linked to acknowledged that fact. You need to do better if you are going to convince anyone of a Huawei phone comeback with HiSilicon.

    Also, HarmonyOS 2.0 is still primarily AndroidOS, but sure, maybe that will change in HarmonyOS 3.0. 

    I do hope that China does attempt to ship technology to Russia, so that the West can take even more stringent action to reduce or prevent that transfer.
    No damage you say?

    https://www.fierceelectronics.com/electronics/major-semi-trade-groups-blast-trump-crackdown-huawei

    That's billions of dollars annually just from Huawei. Would you really like to see all of Russia moving purchases into China?

    What would that do to US interests?

    The US is limping along with some revenues from Huawei through licencing. Once Huawei has re-jigged it's supply chain, it will simply erradicate those US companies from the chain and send those billions into the pockets of US competitors.

    Those references to HiSilicon are not mine. They came directly from Huawei.

    What action could the West take against China transferring its own technology to Russia for strategic and financial gain?
    Thanks for posting a link from 18 months ago. 

    China has almost no production of computing devices, SOC's, CPU's, and GPU's at 10 nm, and none under that, so no, China isn't going to be able to provide those devices to Russia.

    More to the point, I'm guessing that the EU is also going to tighten its policies on Semiconductor sales to Russia.
    12,18,24... It doesn't matter how many months. The damage is done.

    How long do you think it takes to build out US technology from a design?

    How long do you think it takes to re-jig a supply chain?

    You claimed there was no damage. Associations directly representing US semi conductor interests (and thousands of companies, disagree with you).

    10nm? What are you talking about? Over 90% of chip production is at 14nm or higher. China is very much in the game and ramping capacity just like everyone else.

    Ah! And the EU set out its technology independence roadmap before the Huawei issue. Yes, to cut back it's reliance on the US.

    Can you see a pattern emerging here?

    And by the way, Huawei has already locked down contracts with EU companies to offset some lost supplies from the US.
    Funny, but you seem to be reiterating a fact that everyone in the industry is stating; that there needs to be more resilience in the industry by building fabs in strategic locations to prevent supply chain disasters. Of course China wants to make more devices at lager nodes, but those aren't the preferred devices for leading edge phones, missiles, and aircraft, hence why the U.S. lured TSMC to Arizona to build a 5nm fab, to assure the U.S. Military that they would have a supply just in case China invades Taiwan in the future.
    Sorry but missiles and aircraft aren't using the latest nodes for mission critical equipment. They use mature nodes and mature SoCs with mature software support 

    Not even self driving cars truly need the latest process nodes.

    Tell me what advantages a 5nm process would bring to a single use missile.

    As I said, over 90% of chip manufacturing is on mature nodes and for very good reason.
    I'm sure that Xiaomi would be thrilled to compete with a 4nm Qualcomm against a 14nm, or even 10nm, SOC in a Huawei smartphone, but for missiles, it actually pays to have faster, smaller, lighter, and more powerful SOC;s. That's a smarter missile, and an advantage. 

    But hey, I'm fine with the PLA having a disadvantage in air to air and anti-ship missiles when it comes to a confrontation over Taiwan.


    edited February 2022
  • Reply 72 of 193
    So, the U.S. plans to punish Russia with financial sanctions.  According to the BBC, Russia has already dodged that bullet:

    ----------------------------------------------------
    1) "By January this year, the government's international reserves, in foreign exchange and gold, were at record levels - worth more than $630bn (£464bn). ... Notably only about 16% of Russia's foreign exchange is now actually held in dollars, down from 40% five years ago. About 13% is now held in Chinese renminbi.

    2) "What Russia is doing - in effect - is building almost an alternative financial system so that it can withstand some of the shocks of sanctions that the West might impose,"

    3) Over time it has reduced its reliance on foreign loans and investments, and has been actively seeking new trade opportunities away from Western markets. ... China is a big part of that strategy

    4) It is obviously easier for some countries to impose sanctions on the Russian oil and gas industry than it is for others. The EU, for example, gets 40% of its natural gas supplies from Russia. The UK gets about 3%.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    So, Russia has long anticipated the U.S. using its financial systems leverage to enforce its hegemony.   The result is:   our position is not as strong as it used to be nor how strong we think it is.  And, the question is then:  when/if these financial measures fail, what other bullets do we have in our gun -- against Russia or any other country?

    We can beat our chests and claim that Russia will suffer.  But Russia knew what was coming - and prepared for economic warfare.
    We should not have wasted those bullets.  We can't get them back.







    edited February 2022
  • Reply 73 of 193
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,453member
    tmay said:
    genovelle said:
    tmay said:
    danox said:
    Weak. 

    Gotta love the pundits Talking up this cop out like it’s something amazing. 

    America is supposed to be the international policeman. Walking softly but carrying a big stick to use when necessary. 

    Instead of defending freedom, we stand by and watch it crushed while shaking dollar signs the the bad guys with missiles. 

    Putin has China as an ally and Russia counterfeits American goods anyway. This isn’t going to do squat unfortunately. 

    Sanctions suck. Go and do some good in the world. Add the sanctions to that. 

    You let a bully beat up other kids and he just gets worse. Not looking good. 

    God help Ukraine. 

    Ukraine had 20 years before Putin to get their corrupt selves together they didn’t, see Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania for a lesson on how it’s done….They thought they were special….
    I'll repost this;

    To the surprise of everyone in Moscow, Kyiv, Brussels, and Washington, Yanukovych’s decision to scuttle this agreement with the EU triggered mass demonstrations in Ukraine again, bringing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians into the streets in what would become known as the Euromaidan or “Revolution of Dignity” to protest Yanukovych’s turn away from the democratic West. The street protests lasted several weeks, punctuated by the killing of dozens of peaceful protestors by Yanukovych’s government, the eventual collapse of that government and Yanukovych’s flight to Russia in February 2014, and a new pro-Western government taking power in Kyiv. Putin had “lost” Ukraine for the second time in a decade.
    Yeah, having that shot at democracy in 2014 hasn't worked out perfectly, but it is evident that Ukraine wants to succeed. Putin can't allow that, hence, the invasion.
    Putin has succeeded in further dividing the US and helping diminish us as a beacon for democracy, so he is attempting to use this moment in time to make his move. 
    When you have a President who's foreign policy has been a complete disaster, it makes sense Putin would make his move for Ukraine. Putin is essentially playing chess while Biden is playing checkers. Putin was probably laughing histerically as Biden announced the sanctions that will do nothing to stop Russia. 
    Compared to the previous Trump administration, Biden's administration is hitting nothing but home runs. But of course, Biden did have to clean up the mess that Trump left...

    Thanks for playing though.

    That's a pretty low bar to clear.
    And, to be honest, I doubt that Trump would have bungled the situation as badly as Biden has, so far, done.
    (And, trust me!  I am NOT a Trump fan)
    George, you've now gone off the rails completely, and your posts are just rambling about.

    Heck, I even remember you telling us here in the U.S. that China wasn't the problem, Russia was. So now, you're behind Russia, but you still have no understanding of what's going on. 

    Russia is weak militarily, save for their Nuclear weapons. China is the future threat, and so while this invasion of Ukraine is horrifying to the West and especially to the citizens of Ukraine, it is going to drain Russia of resources. That isn't strength, that's weakness. 

    Even China is aware of that.


    edited February 2022 qwerty52Japhey
  • Reply 74 of 193
    One major problem with your premise on the missiles, we had issues with Russia bring missiles with nuclear capabilities into Cuba.  Russia was trying to put nukes 90 miles off our coast.  NATO does not do that.  Adding that in, and your thesis kinda falls apart.  
    emoeller said:
    Putin is maniacal and not easily dissuaded.   If both iOS and Android were cut off that would be devastating as the home grown mobile OS that Russia is using is terrible.   Along with other sanctions it would cripple the Russian economy.

    Putin is far from maniacal.   He is calculating.  Coldly, calculating for what is best for his country.

    In 2014 Hillary promised Ukraine a NATO membership if they left the Russian fold.
    NATO and its missiles, fighter planes, bombers, tanks, etc... on Russia's border are a direct threat to Russia -- just as they were to us in 1960 when Russia started moving them into Cuba.
    How did Putin respond to Hillary's foolishness?  By making sure she was not elected president.  And, we didn't hear anymore about NATO in Ukraine till Biden took office.

    How did Russia respond to all of that?
    Russia wanted ALL Ukrainians to have a vote - so they supported the Minsk agreement.  But western Ukraine blocked it (after agreeing to it) -- so only western Ukrainians got to vote -- and they are voting to let in NATO missiles next door to Russia.   Russia is understandably worried about that -- just as we were when missiles were shipped to Cuba in 1960 when we said:  Either remove them or there WILL BE WAR!

    The west knows better than to face Russia militarily.  So it is taking the Trump route with "sanctions".
    But, like with Trump's.  It is us who will pay the price. Oil prices are already headed up to $100.

    Meanwhile, we've been throwing economic warfare around since 2016 and those we are targeting are beginning to take action to defend themselves.  That will weaken us even further.  Actually, a LOT further when the dollar and U.S. financial systems are no longer the world standard.

    The losers in this cock fight will be, once again, us, the people.
    All we have to do is commit to never letting NATO into Ukraine and this nonsense would be at an end.  We would lose nothing and the world would gain peace.
    But no.  Instead we're starting an economic war.
    ... Stupid.   Very, very stupid.


    tmay
  • Reply 75 of 193
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    genovelle said:
    tmay said:
    danox said:
    Weak. 

    Gotta love the pundits Talking up this cop out like it’s something amazing. 

    America is supposed to be the international policeman. Walking softly but carrying a big stick to use when necessary. 

    Instead of defending freedom, we stand by and watch it crushed while shaking dollar signs the the bad guys with missiles. 

    Putin has China as an ally and Russia counterfeits American goods anyway. This isn’t going to do squat unfortunately. 

    Sanctions suck. Go and do some good in the world. Add the sanctions to that. 

    You let a bully beat up other kids and he just gets worse. Not looking good. 

    God help Ukraine. 

    Ukraine had 20 years before Putin to get their corrupt selves together they didn’t, see Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania for a lesson on how it’s done….They thought they were special….
    I'll repost this;

    To the surprise of everyone in Moscow, Kyiv, Brussels, and Washington, Yanukovych’s decision to scuttle this agreement with the EU triggered mass demonstrations in Ukraine again, bringing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians into the streets in what would become known as the Euromaidan or “Revolution of Dignity” to protest Yanukovych’s turn away from the democratic West. The street protests lasted several weeks, punctuated by the killing of dozens of peaceful protestors by Yanukovych’s government, the eventual collapse of that government and Yanukovych’s flight to Russia in February 2014, and a new pro-Western government taking power in Kyiv. Putin had “lost” Ukraine for the second time in a decade.
    Yeah, having that shot at democracy in 2014 hasn't worked out perfectly, but it is evident that Ukraine wants to succeed. Putin can't allow that, hence, the invasion.
    Putin has succeeded in further dividing the US and helping diminish us as a beacon for democracy, so he is attempting to use this moment in time to make his move. 
    When you have a President who's foreign policy has been a complete disaster, it makes sense Putin would make his move for Ukraine. Putin is essentially playing chess while Biden is playing checkers. Putin was probably laughing histerically as Biden announced the sanctions that will do nothing to stop Russia. 
    Compared to the previous Trump administration, Biden's administration is hitting nothing but home runs. But of course, Biden did have to clean up the mess that Trump left...

    Thanks for playing though.

    That's a pretty low bar to clear.
    And, to be honest, I doubt that Trump would have bungled the situation as badly as Biden has, so far, done.
    (And, trust me!  I am NOT a Trump fan)
    George, you've now gone off the rails completely, and your posts are just rambling about.

    Heck, I even remember you telling us here in the U.S. that China wasn't the problem, Russia was. So now, you're behind Russia, but you still have no understanding of what's going on. 

    Russia is weak militarily, save for their Nuclear weapons. China is the future threat, and so while this invasion of Ukraine is horrifying to the West and especially to the citizens of Ukraine, it is going to drain Russia of resources. That isn't strength, that's weakness. 

    Even China is aware of that.



    Sorry, I don't have this binary good/bad guy mentality like you.
    I am not "behind Russia" -- that's just a resurrection of the Bush/Cheney thing trying to sell their Iraq war where anybody who didn't support it was deemed an UnAmerican Traitor supporting "a dictator".

    What I DO support is avoiding unnecessary conflict such as what we stirred up over there.
    How have we helped the world by bringing it to the brink of war?   Again.
    waveparticle
  • Reply 76 of 193
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    docbburk said:
    One major problem with your premise on the missiles, we had issues with Russia bring missiles with nuclear capabilities into Cuba.  Russia was trying to put nukes 90 miles off our coast.  NATO does not do that. 

    You claim:
    "Russia bring missiles with nuclear capabilities into Cuba.  Russia was trying to put nukes 90 miles off our coast.  NATO does not do that."

    Bull
    Contrary to our agreements with Russia, NATO has been militarizing Russia's neighbors against Russia for a couple decades now.  They are drawing the line at Ukraine.

    Some say NATO is purely defensive.  That is also Bull.   Ask all those dead Afghans.


    edited February 2022
  • Reply 77 of 193
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 3,527member
    emoeller said:
    Putin is maniacal and not easily dissuaded.   If both iOS and Android were cut off that would be devastating as the home grown mobile OS that Russia is using is terrible.   Along with other sanctions it would cripple the Russian economy.

    Putin is far from maniacal.   He is calculating.  Coldly, calculating for what is best for his country.

    In 2014 Hillary promised Ukraine a NATO membership if they left the Russian fold.
    NATO and its missiles, fighter planes, bombers, tanks, etc... on Russia's border are a direct threat to Russia -- just as they were to us in 1960 when Russia started moving them into Cuba.
    How did Putin respond to Hillary's foolishness?  By making sure she was not elected president.  And, we didn't hear anymore about NATO in Ukraine till Biden took office.

    How did Russia respond to all of that?
    Russia wanted ALL Ukrainians to have a vote - so they supported the Minsk agreement.  But western Ukraine blocked it (after agreeing to it) -- so only western Ukrainians got to vote -- and they are voting to let in NATO missiles next door to Russia.   Russia is understandably worried about that -- just as we were when missiles were shipped to Cuba in 1960 when we said:  Either remove them or there WILL BE WAR!

    The west knows better than to face Russia militarily.  So it is taking the Trump route with "sanctions".
    But, like with Trump's.  It is us who will pay the price. Oil prices are already headed up to $100.

    Meanwhile, we've been throwing economic warfare around since 2016 and those we are targeting are beginning to take action to defend themselves.  That will weaken us even further.  Actually, a LOT further when the dollar and U.S. financial systems are no longer the world standard.

    The losers in this cock fight will be, once again, us, the people.
    All we have to do is commit to never letting NATO into Ukraine and this nonsense would be at an end.  We would lose nothing and the world would gain peace.
    But no.  Instead we're starting an economic war.
    ... Stupid.   Very, very stupid.

    Such massive false equivalency can't be an accident, it has to be the result of total disingenuousness. 

    The Cuban missile crisis was about the US putting nuclear missiles in Turkey and the USSR putting nuclear missiles in Cuba. Both agreed to back away from those plans and so crisis was averted. 

    Even if Ukraine became a NATO country, the US would not place nuclear weapons there. There are only five countries outside of the US that host American nuclear weapons -- guess which they are? I'll give you a hint, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Hungary, and Lithuania (all NATO members, all formerly in the USSR or Warsaw Pact) are NOT among them. There is no honest, legit evidence or reason to worry about the US putting nukes in Ukraine. That is a massive Red Herring. 

    The only 'missiles' (ooh, scary!) that would be in Ukraine are the ones already there -- anti-tank and air defense missiles. 

    The only way in which NATO represents an 'existential threat' to Putin (not Russia) is that they are (mostly) democracies. It's not NATO weapons that Putin fears in Ukraine, it's Western ideas that Putin fears. His fear of democracy is understandable -- it would threaten his power AND he probably sees freedom as a threat to stability. 

    There certainly are realistic constraints on what the US can do in the world. We need to be careful not to overcommit. I'm sympathetic to that kind of argument. But the idea that Putin's actions or attitude are justifiable, or that everything is the fault of the US for not appeasing him enough, is just BS. 

    The biggest constrain on what the US can do is that our politics have been corrupted by both Russian and Chinese propaganda and bribes. On the right, we've got useful idiots or outright stooges working for the Russians. On the left, we occasionally have pro-Chinese shills. And then it's left to honest people to sort through all the lies. Not a great time in American history. 
    tmaymike1Japhey
  • Reply 78 of 193
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,453member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    genovelle said:
    tmay said:
    danox said:
    Weak. 

    Gotta love the pundits Talking up this cop out like it’s something amazing. 

    America is supposed to be the international policeman. Walking softly but carrying a big stick to use when necessary. 

    Instead of defending freedom, we stand by and watch it crushed while shaking dollar signs the the bad guys with missiles. 

    Putin has China as an ally and Russia counterfeits American goods anyway. This isn’t going to do squat unfortunately. 

    Sanctions suck. Go and do some good in the world. Add the sanctions to that. 

    You let a bully beat up other kids and he just gets worse. Not looking good. 

    God help Ukraine. 

    Ukraine had 20 years before Putin to get their corrupt selves together they didn’t, see Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania for a lesson on how it’s done….They thought they were special….
    I'll repost this;

    To the surprise of everyone in Moscow, Kyiv, Brussels, and Washington, Yanukovych’s decision to scuttle this agreement with the EU triggered mass demonstrations in Ukraine again, bringing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians into the streets in what would become known as the Euromaidan or “Revolution of Dignity” to protest Yanukovych’s turn away from the democratic West. The street protests lasted several weeks, punctuated by the killing of dozens of peaceful protestors by Yanukovych’s government, the eventual collapse of that government and Yanukovych’s flight to Russia in February 2014, and a new pro-Western government taking power in Kyiv. Putin had “lost” Ukraine for the second time in a decade.
    Yeah, having that shot at democracy in 2014 hasn't worked out perfectly, but it is evident that Ukraine wants to succeed. Putin can't allow that, hence, the invasion.
    Putin has succeeded in further dividing the US and helping diminish us as a beacon for democracy, so he is attempting to use this moment in time to make his move. 
    When you have a President who's foreign policy has been a complete disaster, it makes sense Putin would make his move for Ukraine. Putin is essentially playing chess while Biden is playing checkers. Putin was probably laughing histerically as Biden announced the sanctions that will do nothing to stop Russia. 
    Compared to the previous Trump administration, Biden's administration is hitting nothing but home runs. But of course, Biden did have to clean up the mess that Trump left...

    Thanks for playing though.

    That's a pretty low bar to clear.
    And, to be honest, I doubt that Trump would have bungled the situation as badly as Biden has, so far, done.
    (And, trust me!  I am NOT a Trump fan)
    George, you've now gone off the rails completely, and your posts are just rambling about.

    Heck, I even remember you telling us here in the U.S. that China wasn't the problem, Russia was. So now, you're behind Russia, but you still have no understanding of what's going on. 

    Russia is weak militarily, save for their Nuclear weapons. China is the future threat, and so while this invasion of Ukraine is horrifying to the West and especially to the citizens of Ukraine, it is going to drain Russia of resources. That isn't strength, that's weakness. 

    Even China is aware of that.



    Sorry, I don't have this binary good/bad guy mentality like you.
    I am not "behind Russia" -- that's just a resurrection of the Bush/Cheney thing trying to sell their Iraq war where anybody who didn't support it was deemed an UnAmerican Traitor supporting "a dictator".

    What I DO support is avoiding unnecessary conflict such as what we stirred up over there.
    How have we helped the world by bringing it to the brink of war?   Again.
    When your views and Trump views are coincident, I don't have to look far to see authoritarian brethren...
    edited February 2022 blastdoor
  • Reply 79 of 193
    Weak. 

    Gotta love the pundits Talking up this cop out like it’s something amazing. 

    America is supposed to be the international policeman. Walking softly but carrying a big stick to use when necessary. 

    Instead of defending freedom, we stand by and watch it crushed while shaking dollar signs the the bad guys with missiles. 

    Putin has China as an ally and Russia counterfeits American goods anyway. This isn’t going to do squat unfortunately. 

    Sanctions suck. Go and do some good in the world. Add the sanctions to that. 

    You let a bully beat up other kids and he just gets worse. Not looking good. 

    God help Ukraine. 
    Which of your kids are you willing to sacrifice for Ukraine?

    I thought so. That's why nobody is talking about sending their nation's kids to die for Ukraine.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 80 of 193
    emoeller said:
    Putin is maniacal and not easily dissuaded.   
    Agree with your 2nd point. 100% disagree with your 1st point. Putin is not a maniac, he's shrewd. Even North Korea's Kim is not a maniac, even if his government's pronouncements make him sound so.
    GeorgeBMac
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