Iraqi criminals need to delt with by Iraqi police.
I think you missed the part where the United States temporarily became the Iraqi police. If we can spare as many as several thousand troops to protect oil fields, you would think we could spare even a few dozen to block off the entrances to a museum.
Part of liberation involved destroying the civic structures that have kept order for the last thirty years.
Yes, indeed. Torture, eye-gouging, involuntary tongue amputation and a strong boot on the neck usually do wonders for keeping order. A hearty round of applause for the fallen regime! Ah, the good ol' days...
Quote:
This was achieved with bombs, tanks and bullets, most of them American.
You're damn right it was! Don't forget ample amounts of blood and sweat.
Sorry, but I hadn't yet met my flag-waving, pro-America post quota for today. Thanks for the opportunity.
Quote:
It's America's responsibilty. I'm glad to see that Colin Powell recognises this, even if you don't, and is prepared to help Iraq reassemble its treasures.
So if we stay and help - in ANY way, according to some of you - we're ruling, oppressing, running the show, imposing our will and ways, etc. If we bug out and leave it to them, we're "abandoning them" and leaving Iraq to pick up the mess "our evil military caused".
Well PICK ONE, for crying out loud! Which is it?!?
Is the phrase "damned if you do, damned if you don't" zinging through anyone else's head right now? Yeah, mine too.
Funny to think that Robert Shaw dies an awful, painful death while Richard Dreyfuss lives to see another day.
Yeah, a riot for sure. Anytime you want to let me in on what this has to do with anything, feel free to let us know.
But, since you brought it up, Quint never denied or argued against the danger of the shark. He knew, and accepted, it was a bad customer and should be hunted down and dealt with. And he died fighting it. Kinda cool.
Hooper hid among some rocks at the ocean's bottom, waiting it all out until the coast was clear then casually kicking back to shore on some barrels with Brody. Was Hooper French?
If we can spare as many as several thousand troops to protect oil fields, you would think we could spare even a few dozen to block off the entrances to a museum.
Glad you asked: and would you and others here not have been at the beginning of the "hysterical freak out" line if, while guarding this museum, these soldiers were confronted with hopped-up, violent citizens and looters and - after telling them repeatedly to "back up and disperse" had to use lethal force to protect themselves and your precious museum?
That's a very real scenario that could've occurred. Which way would you see it going? What would you prefer? U.S. troops stand firm and protect the culture and treasures and maybe get a little tough with this lawless mob? Or, simply retreat and let the museum get looted, in the interest of "sparing innocent Iraqi lives"?
I'd like to think that some stern warnings and maybe the mere presence of the soldiers with their guns ready MIGHT be enough to deter the bulk of them. Probably so...most people aren't stupid or harbor a death wish. But, as the case usually is, there are always a few assholes who just won't follow the rules or do as they're told. Iraq, California, Florida, Ireland, etc. A worldwide phenomenon, regardless of culture, language, religion, etc.
As we know, here in our own country, police often can't get a citizen who actually speaks English (the same language the cop is speaking) - and is aware of laws and rules - to cooperate and "drop the gun" or "turn off the engine and step out of the car", so...
What would've been the reaction then? I'll tell you:
"BRUTAL U.S. SOLDIERS MURDER IRAQIS!!! Bloodthirsty sonofabitches should've just let them go in a take some stuff! They didn't have to KILL them!"
So again: which is it? No matter what, the "U.S. would've been wrong" to many of you. Don't guard museum, it gets looted. Guard museum and have to get tough, now we're brutal bullies.
At some point, you guys gotta pick one and go with it.
Hooper hid among some rocks at the ocean's bottom, waiting it all out until the coast was clear. Was Hooper French?
Even if the "affaire Dreyfus" was famous in France in the early nineteen, i doubt that Richard has something to do with it. He is a nice actor, and not a stupid stuntman, fool enough to be eaten by a silly shark in order to make happy a crappy movie director.
Yes, indeed. Torture, eye-gouging, involuntary tongue amputation and a strong boot on the neck usually do wonders for keeping order. A hearty round of applause for the fallen regime! Ah, the good ol' days...
Where on EARTH do you get the idea that I'm supporting this or getting nostalgic for Saddam simply by my pointing out that American troops were responsible for getting rid of it?
Quote:
Originally posted by pscates
You're damn right it was! Don't forget ample amounts of blood and sweat.
Sorry, but I hadn't yet met my flag-waving, pro-America post quota for today. Thanks for the opportunity.
You're welcome.
Quote:
Originally posted by pscates
So if we stay and help - in ANY way, according to some of you - we're ruling, oppressing, running the show, imposing our will and ways, etc. If we bug out and leave it to them, we're "abandoning them" and leaving Iraq to pick up the mess "our evil military caused".
I am not "some of you." Address ME, not some putative evil leftist ideologue. You don't know what I think and this isn't an excuse for a rant about people whose politics are disagreeable to you.
Quote:
Originally posted by pscates
Well PICK ONE, for crying out loud! Which is it?!?
Stay and help? You're DAMN RIGHT you should to stay and help.
Yes, we should stay and help. I agree. We helped topple things, it's part of the process. Bugging out right now would be wrong in every way. But there are those - okay, maybe you're not in that crowd...sorry to lump you in with such shrill pinheads - who are going to, as they've done for THREE WEEKS NOW, turn it around and go "SEE? Yeah, see?! We ARE staying! We are imposing our will and nation-building and...".
That's all I'm saying/referring to.
Do you think I'm making this up and there won't be those who do this? They've done it for weeks now, on every level and for every situation.
Glad you asked: and would you and others here not have been at the beginning of the "hysterical freak out" line if, while guarding this museum, these soldiers were confronted with hopped-up, violent citizens and looters and - after telling them repeatedly to "back up and disperse" had to use lethal force to protect themselves and your precious museum?
We'll, let's see. The U.S. soldiers have killed some looting Iraqis and I have yet to see anyone posting threads about baby killing U.S. soldiers. So, I think that answers your 'question', but since you already knew the answer I'm not sure why you were asking in the first place.
Straw man.
Thanks, I haven't had my quota of hay for the day. You always load up a hefty bushel of it!
I'm not sure, but you keep mentioning it in every post you make.
It's in my sig, goofball, so it kinda goes there automatically...with every post. That's how sigs work (until you change them or deactivate them). In any case, if you can't figure out its significance (and, to be perfectly frank, your prominent role in it), then I can't be bothered to explain it all to you.
Yes, we should stay and help. I agree. We helped topple things, it's part of the process.
I think Hassan's point was not that we shouldn't help, but we are required to help because we 'created' the mess in the first place. Well, I don't mean the Hussein regime, I mean the fall of it and the subsequent power vacume. I don't think anyone you're attacking believes we should just pull out and leave chaos.
We'll, let's see. The U.S. soldiers have killed some looting Iraqis and I have yet to see anyone posting threads about baby killing U.S. soldiers....
Well, since babies, historically, tend not to loot, pillage and go on wild, museum-destroying rampages, I'd have to say that this is probably accurate. Good call.
Well, since babies, historically, tend not to loot, pillage and go on wild, museum-destroying rampages, I'd have to say that this is probably accurate. Good call.
It's in my sig, goofball, so it kinda goes there automatically...with every post. That's how sigs work (until you change them or deactivate them). In any case, if you can't figure out its significance (and, to be perfectly frank, your prominent role in it), then I can't be bothered to explain it all to you.
Go ask around.
I never saw here, Bunge claiming to have a high level of education and thus having a superior advice for this reason. I don't even know what's Bunge do in the real life.
The "bon sens"* is a reality anyway which is more connected with wisdom than tremendeous studies.
I think Hassan's point was not that we shouldn't help, but we are required to help because we 'created' the mess in the first place. Well, I don't mean the Hussein regime, I mean the fall of it and the subsequent power vacume. I don't think anyone you're attacking believes we should just pull out and leave chaos.
And, as far as I know, bunge, we are. That was never something I wanted, either. But again (and mark my words), there will be that segment who'll confuse "help" and "rebuilding" with "ruling" and "oppression" or getting "too involved".
I stand by that. Do I ignore weeks - no, months - of evidence to the contrary? Evidence that says "whatever the U.S. does is going to be wrong, evil, bad, ill-timed, oppressive, bullying, greedy, etc."
Well I don't know bunge's personal background or education level either, Powerdoc. That's not the point.
The quote is a bit of a pointer or a sideways, "close enough" thing that I've actually enjoyed WAY before I even became aware of AI (look on some old "favorite movie" threads here and you'll see my longtime fascination/adoration of "Jaws").
This just seemed like a good time to pull it out because there have been those here (regardless of education level or actual degrees earned) who sometimes come across in a superior, know-it-all fashion. Then, when proven NOT to be so all-knowing on a certain event, topic, scenario, etc., they throw up other arguments or fall back to the old standbys (which I outline in another thread). Anything to deflect that they might not have had it pegged as accurately as they believed.
When I'm wrong or mis-speak, I tend to cop to it and own up (and apologize when necessary). I don't want to be someone who thinks they're perfect and not above boo-boos. I've made TONS of them, here and elsewhere. Look just a few posts above after telling Hassan that I shouldn't have lumped him in with others).
Comments
Originally posted by pscates
I know this will, no doubt, bring me all sorts of grief....
Funny to think that Robert Shaw dies an awful, painful death while Richard Dreyfuss lives to see another day.
Originally posted by Scott
Iraqi criminals need to delt with by Iraqi police.
I think you missed the part where the United States temporarily became the Iraqi police. If we can spare as many as several thousand troops to protect oil fields, you would think we could spare even a few dozen to block off the entrances to a museum.
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Part of liberation involved destroying the civic structures that have kept order for the last thirty years.
Yes, indeed. Torture, eye-gouging, involuntary tongue amputation and a strong boot on the neck usually do wonders for keeping order. A hearty round of applause for the fallen regime! Ah, the good ol' days...
This was achieved with bombs, tanks and bullets, most of them American.
You're damn right it was! Don't forget ample amounts of blood and sweat.
Sorry, but I hadn't yet met my flag-waving, pro-America post quota for today. Thanks for the opportunity.
It's America's responsibilty. I'm glad to see that Colin Powell recognises this, even if you don't, and is prepared to help Iraq reassemble its treasures.
So if we stay and help - in ANY way, according to some of you - we're ruling, oppressing, running the show, imposing our will and ways, etc. If we bug out and leave it to them, we're "abandoning them" and leaving Iraq to pick up the mess "our evil military caused".
Well PICK ONE, for crying out loud! Which is it?!?
Is the phrase "damned if you do, damned if you don't" zinging through anyone else's head right now? Yeah, mine too.
Originally posted by bunge
Funny to think that Robert Shaw dies an awful, painful death while Richard Dreyfuss lives to see another day.
Yeah, a riot for sure. Anytime you want to let me in on what this has to do with anything, feel free to let us know.
But, since you brought it up, Quint never denied or argued against the danger of the shark. He knew, and accepted, it was a bad customer and should be hunted down and dealt with. And he died fighting it. Kinda cool.
Hooper hid among some rocks at the ocean's bottom, waiting it all out until the coast was clear then casually kicking back to shore on some barrels with Brody. Was Hooper French?
Originally posted by bunge
If we can spare as many as several thousand troops to protect oil fields, you would think we could spare even a few dozen to block off the entrances to a museum.
Glad you asked: and would you and others here not have been at the beginning of the "hysterical freak out" line if, while guarding this museum, these soldiers were confronted with hopped-up, violent citizens and looters and - after telling them repeatedly to "back up and disperse" had to use lethal force to protect themselves and your precious museum?
That's a very real scenario that could've occurred. Which way would you see it going? What would you prefer? U.S. troops stand firm and protect the culture and treasures and maybe get a little tough with this lawless mob? Or, simply retreat and let the museum get looted, in the interest of "sparing innocent Iraqi lives"?
I'd like to think that some stern warnings and maybe the mere presence of the soldiers with their guns ready MIGHT be enough to deter the bulk of them. Probably so...most people aren't stupid or harbor a death wish. But, as the case usually is, there are always a few assholes who just won't follow the rules or do as they're told. Iraq, California, Florida, Ireland, etc. A worldwide phenomenon, regardless of culture, language, religion, etc.
As we know, here in our own country, police often can't get a citizen who actually speaks English (the same language the cop is speaking) - and is aware of laws and rules - to cooperate and "drop the gun" or "turn off the engine and step out of the car", so...
What would've been the reaction then? I'll tell you:
"BRUTAL U.S. SOLDIERS MURDER IRAQIS!!! Bloodthirsty sonofabitches should've just let them go in a take some stuff! They didn't have to KILL them!"
So again: which is it? No matter what, the "U.S. would've been wrong" to many of you. Don't guard museum, it gets looted. Guard museum and have to get tough, now we're brutal bullies.
At some point, you guys gotta pick one and go with it.
Originally posted by pscates
Hooper hid among some rocks at the ocean's bottom, waiting it all out until the coast was clear. Was Hooper French?
Even if the "affaire Dreyfus" was famous in France in the early nineteen, i doubt that Richard has something to do with it. He is a nice actor, and not a stupid stuntman, fool enough to be eaten by a silly shark in order to make happy a crappy movie director.
Originally posted by pscates
Yes, indeed. Torture, eye-gouging, involuntary tongue amputation and a strong boot on the neck usually do wonders for keeping order. A hearty round of applause for the fallen regime! Ah, the good ol' days...
Where on EARTH do you get the idea that I'm supporting this or getting nostalgic for Saddam simply by my pointing out that American troops were responsible for getting rid of it?
Originally posted by pscates
You're damn right it was! Don't forget ample amounts of blood and sweat.
Sorry, but I hadn't yet met my flag-waving, pro-America post quota for today. Thanks for the opportunity.
You're welcome.
Originally posted by pscates
So if we stay and help - in ANY way, according to some of you - we're ruling, oppressing, running the show, imposing our will and ways, etc. If we bug out and leave it to them, we're "abandoning them" and leaving Iraq to pick up the mess "our evil military caused".
I am not "some of you." Address ME, not some putative evil leftist ideologue. You don't know what I think and this isn't an excuse for a rant about people whose politics are disagreeable to you.
Originally posted by pscates
Well PICK ONE, for crying out loud! Which is it?!?
Stay and help? You're DAMN RIGHT you should to stay and help.
Originally posted by pscates
Anytime you want to let me in on what this has to do with anything, feel free to let us know.
I'm not sure, but you keep mentioning it in every post you make.
That's all I'm saying/referring to.
Do you think I'm making this up and there won't be those who do this? They've done it for weeks now, on every level and for every situation.
Talk about being frustrating...
Originally posted by pscates
Glad you asked: and would you and others here not have been at the beginning of the "hysterical freak out" line if, while guarding this museum, these soldiers were confronted with hopped-up, violent citizens and looters and - after telling them repeatedly to "back up and disperse" had to use lethal force to protect themselves and your precious museum?
We'll, let's see. The U.S. soldiers have killed some looting Iraqis and I have yet to see anyone posting threads about baby killing U.S. soldiers. So, I think that answers your 'question', but since you already knew the answer I'm not sure why you were asking in the first place.
Straw man.
Thanks, I haven't had my quota of hay for the day. You always load up a hefty bushel of it!
Originally posted by bunge
I'm not sure, but you keep mentioning it in every post you make.
It's in my sig, goofball, so it kinda goes there automatically...with every post. That's how sigs work (until you change them or deactivate them). In any case, if you can't figure out its significance (and, to be perfectly frank, your prominent role in it), then I can't be bothered to explain it all to you.
Go ask around.
Originally posted by pscates
Yes, we should stay and help. I agree. We helped topple things, it's part of the process.
I think Hassan's point was not that we shouldn't help, but we are required to help because we 'created' the mess in the first place. Well, I don't mean the Hussein regime, I mean the fall of it and the subsequent power vacume. I don't think anyone you're attacking believes we should just pull out and leave chaos.
Originally posted by bunge
We'll, let's see. The U.S. soldiers have killed some looting Iraqis and I have yet to see anyone posting threads about baby killing U.S. soldiers....
Well, since babies, historically, tend not to loot, pillage and go on wild, museum-destroying rampages, I'd have to say that this is probably accurate. Good call.
Whew, you got me there, bunge.
I know when I've been beaten.
Originally posted by pscates
It's in my sig, goofball, so it kinda goes there automatically...with every post.
Well, I would have thought that you could have understood why it was addressed since you brought it up in the first place.
Asking too much of you?
But if it's in reference to me, let's just say I have no fears jumping into a shark cage.
Originally posted by pscates
Well, since babies, historically, tend not to loot, pillage and go on wild, museum-destroying rampages, I'd have to say that this is probably accurate. Good call.
I did give you too much credit, I apologize.
Originally posted by pscates
It's in my sig, goofball, so it kinda goes there automatically...with every post. That's how sigs work (until you change them or deactivate them). In any case, if you can't figure out its significance (and, to be perfectly frank, your prominent role in it), then I can't be bothered to explain it all to you.
Go ask around.
I never saw here, Bunge claiming to have a high level of education and thus having a superior advice for this reason. I don't even know what's Bunge do in the real life.
The "bon sens"* is a reality anyway which is more connected with wisdom than tremendeous studies.
* sorry to offend you with a french wording
Originally posted by bunge
I think Hassan's point was not that we shouldn't help, but we are required to help because we 'created' the mess in the first place. Well, I don't mean the Hussein regime, I mean the fall of it and the subsequent power vacume. I don't think anyone you're attacking believes we should just pull out and leave chaos.
And, as far as I know, bunge, we are. That was never something I wanted, either. But again (and mark my words), there will be that segment who'll confuse "help" and "rebuilding" with "ruling" and "oppression" or getting "too involved".
I stand by that. Do I ignore weeks - no, months - of evidence to the contrary? Evidence that says "whatever the U.S. does is going to be wrong, evil, bad, ill-timed, oppressive, bullying, greedy, etc."
No, I don't.
Originally posted by pscates
And, as far as I know, bunge, we are.
Sure we are, and apparently we screwed up. I think that was also Hassan's point, as well as Colin Powell's.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I never saw here, Bunge claiming to have a high level of education...
I thought Scott was the one bragging about higher education.
The quote is a bit of a pointer or a sideways, "close enough" thing that I've actually enjoyed WAY before I even became aware of AI (look on some old "favorite movie" threads here and you'll see my longtime fascination/adoration of "Jaws").
This just seemed like a good time to pull it out because there have been those here (regardless of education level or actual degrees earned) who sometimes come across in a superior, know-it-all fashion. Then, when proven NOT to be so all-knowing on a certain event, topic, scenario, etc., they throw up other arguments or fall back to the old standbys (which I outline in another thread). Anything to deflect that they might not have had it pegged as accurately as they believed.
When I'm wrong or mis-speak, I tend to cop to it and own up (and apologize when necessary). I don't want to be someone who thinks they're perfect and not above boo-boos. I've made TONS of them, here and elsewhere. Look just a few posts above after telling Hassan that I shouldn't have lumped him in with others).
I just can't help it if I'm barely ever wrong.
I'm KIDDING, okay?