That's why it's good to be an optimist. It's in Apple's best interest to resurrect their PMs, and the sooner the better.
And what better time and place to do it than WWDC.
I agree that: "Quote:
"It's in Apple's best interest to resurrect their PMs, and the sooner the better." End Quote"
But to be pessimistic before Apple announces anything is a wise mans decision. That way you won't get your hopes up, and then your whole world won't come crashing down around you with rumor mongers complaining about everything they predicted didn't come to fruition while they blame Apple for it - as if they (Apple) said they would be bringing it to their door for free in the next day.
macbippyboopy had photos of the MDD when all other rumor sites did not.
Well, that's true. I remember the absolute screaming from people who insisted the pics were Photoshopped and that Apple would never ship anything so ugly. (And I've had two of them myself. )
I guess I am in the same camp as those who say if you temper your expectations of Apple, you won't be disappointed. I just can't imagine the uproar on this board on June 23 if no 970 Power Macs appear. I think I will stay in bed that day with the covers over my head.
But until then you can still run 10.2 in emulation!
10.2 on a 970 would not be emulation in the sense of VPC on a mac. It would be in the sense of runnig 68k apps on your PPC. You see NO penelty hit for running them. 10.2 will get a small tweak to run on the 970s (just like any other new machine always has a bit of a newer build so it knows about the new hardware). And then it will run just fine. Once 10.3 comes out, I am sure Apple will hype the "64bitness", but it wont double the speed of your 970 by installing it.
I think that some of you are still thinking (64bit CPU + 64bit OS) = twice as fast as (32bit CPU + 32bit OS). This isn't true, the performance increase, this time, is do to other parts of the chip not its "bitness". I would bet that 90% of us will not run a 64 bit app anytime in the next 5 years!
The PowerPC 970 runs 32bit PowerPC code (the stuff that the current G4 runs) natively. The 68K emulator (software) was piece of genius that made the transition between 68K and PowerPC, two very different architectures, seamless. The transition between PowerPC 64 and PowerPC 32 is extra easy because they're both members of the PowerPC architecture.
Judging by the 'Dooby' benches, the 970 will be platform changing. It will send shockwaves through the workstation community. 65% of 'arthouses' intend to go Apple this year. I think Kerris or some of those evangelists have been peppering the workstation community with STRONG hints of what's to come from Apple.
Panther will prob' eak out optimisations for our beloved OS and the new chip it will run on. I'm confident the new chip will toe-poke the G4 duals to touch even with a single entry level 970 at 1.4.
X 2.7 will suffice until then. Why should Apple wait half a year to get those 970s out? They can be making money NOW! Gaining market share NOW! It all counts. That's two quarters worth of growth. To get 'power'Mac sales off life support.
Now that 'flagship' iMac sales aren't bailing Apple out they HAVE to address the Tower issue. (Funny, all that talk about Apple becoming a consumer only company and neglecting the tower/creative pro' market.) And back when Apple was posting a 100 million quarterly, the Tower had much better sales then! Ironic if the tables should turn. What with iMac2 sales being mediocre. We'll have come full circle over these last four years if Tower sales hit the half million mark in the next half a year.
Mine will be one of them. No more whining about crappy G4 performance for me.
X 2.7 will suffice until then. Why should Apple wait half a year to get those 970s out? They can be making money NOW! Gaining market share NOW! It all counts. That's two quarters worth of growth. To get 'power'Mac sales off life support.
Now that 'flagship' iMac sales aren't bailing Apple out they HAVE to address the Tower issue. (Funny, all that talk about Apple becoming a consumer only company and neglecting the tower/creative pro' market.)
All that talk was just talk, and I've been hearing that whine ever since the iMac first appeared.
Apparently some people just can't understand that a solid consumer product and a solid professional product aren't mutually exclusive, or that Apple is big enough to pay attention to more than one product category at once.
Quote:
And back when Apple was posting a 100 million quarterly, the Tower had much better sales then! Ironic if the tables should turn. What with iMac2 sales being mediocre. We'll have come full circle over these last four years if Tower sales hit the half million mark in the next half a year.
Even if the sunflower was selling as well as the jellybean did at its peak, the plain fact is that it's not a profitable machine. It's costly to manufacture, and it has to hit a fairly restrictive price point. The PowerMac has always been Apple's cash cow, even when it wasn't their best seller in absolute volume. That role has shifted increasingly over to the PowerBook, but it's nevertheless true that pro products make Apple money. The best Apple can reasonably hope from the consumer line is that they gain market share and mindshare, because they don't bring nearly as much revenue in per unit.
Now, if the PowerMac gets a 970, and the PowerBook gets a 970, I expect revenues to shoot upward. Especially once QXP6 allows OS X into one of Apple's most loyal markets and spurs a round of hardware upgrades.
Historically, what's good for the PowerBook is good for the iMac.
I don't know what's up with my French rumor-brethren, but I just exchanged emails wiht my factory rep at the Taiwan plant where the 970 Power Macs really are being manufactured, and there are **not** any finished products at this time. All I can get is a verification that "at least one model is starting into production soon."
I don't know about MacBidioulle, but my guy actually works at the plant, and this info, while not as flamboyant as the French report, is actually accurate.
Again: There are no finished/packed Power Mac 970's in existence at this time. Period."
Okay. So the 'quoter' aint working again. Fine. I can live with that
Macwhispers hasn't posted this on his web-site (if this is the same guy...) However, he felt the need to quell the Dooby rumours.
Hmmm. I think it must be a close thing. Even if they aint in boxes...I think a WWDC debut would make sense. If they ship early August following said announcement or after a New York annoucement...then okay.
It wasn't that long ago some pessimists were predicting Jan' 2004 for any 970 Tower. 4 weeks or 3 months. I'd settle for either but the sooner the better! (Just to ram it down those Wintel mhz boasters...yeah...and stick it to all those G4 whiners too...)
Mine will be one of them. No more whining about crappy G4 performance for me.
LBB, your enthusiasm for this unannounced bit of vaporware has me worried! I think you should temper your expectations a bit, on the chance that the next Power Mac WON'T, in fact, do everything, including bend time, resolve the crisis in the Middle East and make your toast in the morning!
LBB, your enthusiasm for this unannounced bit of vaporware has me worried! I think you should temper your expectations a bit, on the chance that the next Power Mac WON'T, in fact, do everything, including bend time, resolve the crisis in the Middle East and make your toast in the morning!
. . . Even if the sunflower was selling as well as the jellybean did at its peak, the plain fact is that it's not a profitable machine. It's costly to manufacture, and it has to hit a fairly restrictive price point.
You are reinforcing my suspicions about the iMac's manufacturing cost. A Mac for the consumer market should have been designed with low manufacturing cost as one of the goals. I hope Apple realizes their mistake and are working to reducing cost. (I know, wrong thread, but I couldn't resist commenting on what you said.)
The quote came from the 970 thread at macrumors. Check out the 'Dooby 970 packaged and ready to go' thread over there.
As for enthusiasm. Well. My 'enthusiasm' is based on IBM's CONSERVATIVE estimates.
I don't recall there being this much pre-hype or 'smoke' surrounding the G4 before it was released...or as much 'near-as-dammit' confirmation from as many sites on the net.
At 1 gig it will outperform the current dual 1.4 gigs. And more so on Altivec code because of the bandwidth of the bus. Then there's five execution units. Extra fpu. Better memory.
But we're not talking about 1 gig. We're talking 1.4 gig minimum.
Then dual 1.6 and dual 1.8 if the current line up is any indication.
IF the 1.8 performed like like a 2 gig G4 and you dualed that...the dual 2 gig G4 would probably at least draw even with a Pentium 4 at 3 gig.
The 1.8 970 is more like a 3.6 gig G4 on FP ops at least. Dual that. You've got 7.2 gig. And apparently, the 970 plays ball better in dual formations than the G4 does. ie more efficient multiprocessing. Throw in optimisations in Panther OS. Altivec cut loose on 6 gig plus of bandwidth...probable twin banked ram.
I dunno. It doesn't occur to me that the new cpu from Apple will be nothing less than platform changing. It's that radical by any conservative estimations.
Frankly, it's where the platform should be! Years of underperforming Moto' G4s have lowered expectations. They haven't lowered mine. We're due this. The Mac is due this. Did people really think Apple were going to languish on sub-2 gig processors while Intel stormed to 5 gig Pentium 5s?
Apple had to address both perception and performance and their admissions in the last year prove that they must really be working hard on the 'power'Mac problem.
The 970 may not make the toast (unless Apple delivers 'ihouse') but it will kick the snot out of any G4 based machine for Lightwave renders and flatten its gonads on any Photoshop operation.
I'll settle for that. Time and space will be bent when we have 980s in Octo workstations...
Comments
Originally posted by SoopaDrive
That's why it's good to be an optimist. It's in Apple's best interest to resurrect their PMs, and the sooner the better.
And what better time and place to do it than WWDC.
I agree that: "Quote:
"It's in Apple's best interest to resurrect their PMs, and the sooner the better." End Quote"
But to be pessimistic before Apple announces anything is a wise mans decision. That way you won't get your hopes up, and then your whole world won't come crashing down around you with rumor mongers complaining about everything they predicted didn't come to fruition while they blame Apple for it - as if they (Apple) said they would be bringing it to their door for free in the next day.
I've seen it a hundred times.
Originally posted by keyboardf12
macbippyboopy had photos of the MDD when all other rumor sites did not.
Well, that's true. I remember the absolute screaming from people who insisted the pics were Photoshopped and that Apple would never ship anything so ugly. (And I've had two of them myself.
I guess I am in the same camp as those who say if you temper your expectations of Apple, you won't be disappointed. I just can't imagine the uproar on this board on June 23 if no 970 Power Macs appear. I think I will stay in bed that day with the covers over my head.
Originally posted by BrunoBruin
But until then you can still run 10.2 in emulation!
10.2 on a 970 would not be emulation in the sense of VPC on a mac. It would be in the sense of runnig 68k apps on your PPC. You see NO penelty hit for running them. 10.2 will get a small tweak to run on the 970s (just like any other new machine always has a bit of a newer build so it knows about the new hardware). And then it will run just fine. Once 10.3 comes out, I am sure Apple will hype the "64bitness", but it wont double the speed of your 970 by installing it.
I think that some of you are still thinking (64bit CPU + 64bit OS) = twice as fast as (32bit CPU + 32bit OS). This isn't true, the performance increase, this time, is do to other parts of the chip not its "bitness". I would bet that 90% of us will not run a 64 bit app anytime in the next 5 years!
if the 970 running 10.2.x is REALLY SLOW
What Stoo said.
He just beat me to it...
Lemon Bon Bon
Originally posted by kupan787
10.2 on a 970 would not be emulation in the sense of VPC on a mac.
I understand that; I was just exaggerating for comic effect. I should have added one of these:
Panther will prob' eak out optimisations for our beloved OS and the new chip it will run on. I'm confident the new chip will toe-poke the G4 duals to touch even with a single entry level 970 at 1.4.
X 2.7 will suffice until then. Why should Apple wait half a year to get those 970s out? They can be making money NOW! Gaining market share NOW! It all counts. That's two quarters worth of growth. To get 'power'Mac sales off life support.
Now that 'flagship' iMac sales aren't bailing Apple out they HAVE to address the Tower issue. (Funny, all that talk about Apple becoming a consumer only company and neglecting the tower/creative pro' market.) And back when Apple was posting a 100 million quarterly, the Tower had much better sales then! Ironic if the tables should turn. What with iMac2 sales being mediocre.
Mine will be one of them. No more whining about crappy G4 performance for me.
Lemon Bon Bon
How about to just stop the losses?
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
Now that 'flagship' iMac sales aren't bailing Apple out they HAVE to address the Tower issue. (Funny, all that talk about Apple becoming a consumer only company and neglecting the tower/creative pro' market.)
All that talk was just talk, and I've been hearing that whine ever since the iMac first appeared.
Apparently some people just can't understand that a solid consumer product and a solid professional product aren't mutually exclusive, or that Apple is big enough to pay attention to more than one product category at once.
And back when Apple was posting a 100 million quarterly, the Tower had much better sales then! Ironic if the tables should turn. What with iMac2 sales being mediocre.
Even if the sunflower was selling as well as the jellybean did at its peak, the plain fact is that it's not a profitable machine. It's costly to manufacture, and it has to hit a fairly restrictive price point. The PowerMac has always been Apple's cash cow, even when it wasn't their best seller in absolute volume. That role has shifted increasingly over to the PowerBook, but it's nevertheless true that pro products make Apple money. The best Apple can reasonably hope from the consumer line is that they gain market share and mindshare, because they don't bring nearly as much revenue in per unit.
Now, if the PowerMac gets a 970, and the PowerBook gets a 970, I expect revenues to shoot upward. Especially once QXP6 allows OS X into one of Apple's most loyal markets and spurs a round of hardware upgrades.
Historically, what's good for the PowerBook is good for the iMac.
I don't know what's up with my French rumor-brethren, but I just exchanged emails wiht my factory rep at the Taiwan plant where the 970 Power Macs really are being manufactured, and there are **not** any finished products at this time. All I can get is a verification that "at least one model is starting into production soon."
I don't know about MacBidioulle, but my guy actually works at the plant, and this info, while not as flamboyant as the French report, is actually accurate.
Again: There are no finished/packed Power Mac 970's in existence at this time. Period."
Okay. So the 'quoter' aint working again. Fine. I can live with that
Macwhispers hasn't posted this on his web-site (if this is the same guy...) However, he felt the need to quell the Dooby rumours.
Hmmm. I think it must be a close thing. Even if they aint in boxes...I think a WWDC debut would make sense. If they ship early August following said announcement or after a New York annoucement...then okay.
It wasn't that long ago some pessimists were predicting Jan' 2004 for any 970 Tower. 4 weeks or 3 months. I'd settle for either but the sooner the better! (Just to ram it down those Wintel mhz boasters...yeah...and stick it to all those G4 whiners too...)
Lemon Bon Bon
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
Mine will be one of them. No more whining about crappy G4 performance for me.
LBB, your enthusiasm for this unannounced bit of vaporware has me worried! I think you should temper your expectations a bit, on the chance that the next Power Mac WON'T, in fact, do everything, including bend time, resolve the crisis in the Middle East and make your toast in the morning!
Originally posted by BrunoBruin
LBB, your enthusiasm for this unannounced bit of vaporware has me worried! I think you should temper your expectations a bit, on the chance that the next Power Mac WON'T, in fact, do everything, including bend time, resolve the crisis in the Middle East and make your toast in the morning!
Damn, no toast.
Originally posted by Bigc
Damn, no toast.
There MAY be toast; I'm just saying we should wait and see. (Hell, the 667MHz VGA PowerBooks fried eggs, so anything is possible.)
Originally posted by Amorph
. . . Even if the sunflower was selling as well as the jellybean did at its peak, the plain fact is that it's not a profitable machine. It's costly to manufacture, and it has to hit a fairly restrictive price point.
You are reinforcing my suspicions about the iMac's manufacturing cost. A Mac for the consumer market should have been designed with low manufacturing cost as one of the goals. I hope Apple realizes their mistake and are working to reducing cost. (I know, wrong thread, but I couldn't resist commenting on what you said.)
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
Again: There are no finished/packed Power Mac 970's in existence at this time. Period."
Lemon Bon Bon
So, um, maybe we're talking about two different products here.
Screed ...desperately trying to find a silver lining.
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
Macwhispers hasn't posted this on his web-site (if this is the same guy...) However, he felt the need to quell the Dooby rumours.
MacWhispers couldn't predict Christmas Eve if he tried.
Originally posted by JLL
MacWhispers couldn't predict Christmas Eve if he tried.
In all fairness, Jack could probably get close though.
The quote came from the 970 thread at macrumors. Check out the 'Dooby 970 packaged and ready to go' thread over there.
As for enthusiasm. Well. My 'enthusiasm' is based on IBM's CONSERVATIVE estimates.
I don't recall there being this much pre-hype or 'smoke' surrounding the G4 before it was released...or as much 'near-as-dammit' confirmation from as many sites on the net.
At 1 gig it will outperform the current dual 1.4 gigs. And more so on Altivec code because of the bandwidth of the bus. Then there's five execution units. Extra fpu. Better memory.
But we're not talking about 1 gig. We're talking 1.4 gig minimum.
Then dual 1.6 and dual 1.8 if the current line up is any indication.
IF the 1.8 performed like like a 2 gig G4 and you dualed that...the dual 2 gig G4 would probably at least draw even with a Pentium 4 at 3 gig.
The 1.8 970 is more like a 3.6 gig G4 on FP ops at least. Dual that. You've got 7.2 gig. And apparently, the 970 plays ball better in dual formations than the G4 does. ie more efficient multiprocessing. Throw in optimisations in Panther OS. Altivec cut loose on 6 gig plus of bandwidth...probable twin banked ram.
I dunno. It doesn't occur to me that the new cpu from Apple will be nothing less than platform changing. It's that radical by any conservative estimations.
Frankly, it's where the platform should be! Years of underperforming Moto' G4s have lowered expectations. They haven't lowered mine. We're due this. The Mac is due this. Did people really think Apple were going to languish on sub-2 gig processors while Intel stormed to 5 gig Pentium 5s?
Apple had to address both perception and performance and their admissions in the last year prove that they must really be working hard on the 'power'Mac problem.
The 970 may not make the toast (unless Apple delivers 'ihouse') but it will kick the snot out of any G4 based machine for Lightwave renders and flatten its gonads on any Photoshop operation.
I'll settle for that. Time and space will be bent when we have 980s in Octo workstations...
Lemon Bon Bon