I didn't even take the time to read the story because a)I'm in a rush and b) it's a bad, bad thing either way. My only question is, does anyone believe it possible that at some point in the last 20 years, black cops have shot white guys in the back? Is it news? If they only unloaded 5 shots instead of 8 is it less offensive to our sensibilities?
Seriously, it's bad that it happened at all. But unless someone can prove something (I don't think it would be that hard to find out if these guys were white supremicist or otherwise vocal about any racist-like beliefs in the locker room), I don't see how the race of the involved parties is relevant. What if black cops had shot him 8 times under the exact same circumstance? Are they "oreo cookies" then?
Actually the organiation 100 blacks in law enforcement has shown that relative to white officers Black officers rarely shoot and kill suspects. I believe that in East Orange NJ no black officer has shot and killed any suspects, much less any white suspects. If this patern holds true across the country, then indeed there is a racial component. Again that the Justice Dept. own studies show that white(s) males are given more lenient sentances for the same crimes that blacks commit, show that the race issue is in fact endemic to 'the system.'
But again, until you are repeatedly harrassed on a street or highway for no reason at all, you won't understand.
Looks like we got a new type of capital offense: "Phoning while Black" (PWB). Sounds like the kind of arbitrary killing that Saddam and his thugs would approve of.
Actually the organiation 100 blacks in law enforcement has shown that relative to white officers Black officers rarely shoot and kill suspects. I believe that in East Orange NJ no black officer has shot and killed any suspects, much less any white suspects. If this patern holds true across the country, then indeed there is a racial component. Again that the Justice Dept. own studies show that white(s) males are given more lenient sentances for the same crimes that blacks commit, show that the race issue is in fact endemic to 'the system.'
But again, until you are repeatedly harrassed on a street or highway for no reason at all, you won't understand.
Again and those same studies show that a black female will receive a lesser punishment FOR THE SAME CRIME than a white male.
The biggest factor in sentencing is gender. Does that mean isn't A factor, no. However it is not THE factor.
hmmm... couldn't watch it on the mac, on a PC now... so I've skipped the certainly enlightening commentary for now.
On the low res video, the way the phone was held certainly could be contrued as a weapon (a handgun)
It also appears that the suspect did manage to turn and point, look at the way his body was twisted.
And though I only watched it once, but will see if I can get a better frame by frame view, it also looks like one officer did most of the shooting.
Hard to say at this point... but some things people should know about police and weapons. There is no such thing as shooting limbs or weapons out of a hand like in a John Wayne movie. ALL firearm training teaches, by force of repetition, to aim for the center of the torso. Add excitement to that and you get a conditioned response, back, front, it doesn't matter. Once a weapon (or percieved weapon) is drawn, and officers threatened, they will shoot (for the center of the torso) and in many many cases it probably doesn't matter if the assailant turns away, only absolute surrender, being prone, just like an animal, typically abates the "fight" response.
I'm hugely intrigued by the possibility that certain "race" crimes might be a function of conditioning and "fight or flight" as well as the dehumanizing aspect of plain old racism. Can't/won't say which is which in this case, yet...
Also, having viewed a few gun fights and war footage, the surrealism of a gun fight never fails to impress me. I've never seen one in real life, just a great many on tape, so I either don't have volume, or I can turn it down. The motions are so undramatic, pedestrian, boring. The results? Anything but... Something else I believe plays a role.
Back to your regularly scheduled race relations...
Actually this one bothers me a lot more. Did you miss it?
"No justice, no peace. We will burn your town down," shouted a protester.
Such blatantly racist things don't bother you?
Scott see racism everywhere. How is we will burn your town down racist? a) the race of the protester isnt mentioned and b) the town they are talking about is undoubtedly the same town in which the protester lives... Would you say that a single race of rioters burning down their own houses/buisness/apartment buildings is racist?
but a black female will recieve a greater sentance than a white female, thereby showing that race trumps gender when gender is normalized.
As I said it is a factor. I fully acknowledged that. However what you need to acknowledge is that while the difference between racial sentencing is about 10%-12% in length or prison terms, the difference in gender is often 200-500% in sentencing differences.
So to apply this, a black male may get 55 months for the crime. A white male would likely get 50 months for the crime. However a white woman would get 20 months and the black woman 24 months.
As I said it is a factor. You also should mention that our society has created highly delineated sentencing guidelines that attempt to stop any bias in sentencing, that income differences also exist, and people can plea bargain for lower sentences as well.
So by claiming our right as Americans to arm ourselves, are we not putting ourselves at risk hundreds, or thousands of times over? Of course we are. Only a moron would deny that.
This is about trigger-happy public servants, not guns.
Why do people in the US put themselves at risk if it isn't necessary for safety and protection? Are all those folks morons?
Guns in the hands of the public have costs, but they also have benefits, or people wouldn't own them. I can't believe that all of that "benefit" is due to the wannabe Rambos of the world.
Just before you go to sleep at night without having to worry about someone breaking into your home, say a brief word of thanks for all of the honest and hardworking folks out here who own weapons, train with them, and take the risk of having them in the house. Their efforts and expense make you safer, unless you live in one of those "gated" communities. By the way, you're welcome.
for those arguing about race and sentencing, again, i'd say take a look at wealth and sentencing. i fully believe that wealth is the largest factor, which is also related to race. a skew to help the wealthy would also help white people more often.
Why would I deny what is true? I could also point you to data that shows that black judges sentence black defendents to longer sentences than white judges.
Is there anyone else here who doesn't believe that a very poor black man is going to get a longer sentence than a rich white woman? Is that a collective DUH I hear?
We have sentencing guidelines to attempt to prevent this problem however if your attorney doesn't present X or Y, it won't show up in the guidelines. The guidelines are less restrictive with regard to sentencing of repeat offenders.
Of course we should the discuss the absolute number one variable with regard to sentencing and that is...
I've watched from the sidelines of the AO board for some time but have never posted. This time, however, I couldn't stand the Police bashing any longer. I'm a Lieutenant in a mid-sized New England Police Department. I have a Masters degree in Public Administration, and have been a Police Officer for ten years. After having watched the video I'm shocked at how many of you think the shooting wasn't justified. The man clearly turns around and points what looks like a gun at the Officers. It's obvious that he is tryig to make it look like a gun. No one holds a cell phone in two hands and spins around pointing it like Dirty Harry. I have no doubt based on what I saw that I would have fired also. As for the shots hitting his back - thats irrelevant. If someone points a gun in my face and then turns around, am I suposed to just stand there and wait for him to turn around again and shoot me in the face? This isn't a John Wayne Western where two men meet face to face in the street and draw - it's not supposed to be a fair fight - it's about the Officer trying to survive. Something we teach Officers regularly in gun training is action versus reaction. We demonstrate it with paintball guns. Have two people face eachother. Person A has a gun extended in front of him pointing directly in person B's face. Person B is holding a gun down at his side - or even behind his back. Action is far superior to reaction. If person B acts first - he can raise the gun and shoot before person A can even pull the trigger. It works EVERY time - and has been proven again and again in court. You can try this safely at home with two cap guns if you wish. As for the suggestions that we should aim for the legs - give me a break. The stress of a REAL LIFE shooting is so great that over 75% of the shots fired miss the target. This is incredible when you consider that most Police shootings occur within 6 feet! When you are in this business it's amazing how many true stories you hear about two men emptying their guns at eachother from just a few feet away and missing every shot.
Lastly the sticky issue of race. Every time I read a post in the AO forum about MODERN DAY Police (not the 1960s) picking on Black people I'm amazed. The honest truth from someone who is on the front lines is this: In general, most Police Officers try to avoid arresting, ticketing, or even questioning a black person like the plauge. The sad truth is that we are afraid to do anything. This forum is a perfect example of why - it immediately becomes about race instead of about a crime. Apparently this is a surprise to many of you - but Officers literaly cringe in their cars when they get sent to a crime with a black suspect. The first thought is here we go with the Police racism routine. If anything goes wrong or anyone gets arrested then the natural defense is that I must be a racist. In the city where I work black citizens routinely get away with conduct that would land a white person in jail. It's very simple - Officers are tired of being branded as racists so they don't act. I don't mean to offend anyone - I'm just telling you how it really is.
I have no doubt based on what I saw that I would have fired also. As for the shots hitting his back - thats irrelevant. If someone points a gun in my face and then turns around, am I suposed to just stand there and wait for him to turn around again and shoot me in the face? This isn't a John Wayne Western where two men meet face to face in the street and draw - it's not supposed to be a fair fight - it's about the Officer trying to survive.
You guys are crazy. A guy pulls out a gun, then he turns and slowly walks away from you after you aim yours at him. You're going to what, let him walk into the 7-****ing-11 and get a slurpee? **** no, you blast the mother****er before he turns around and BLASTS YOU.
You guys are crazy. A guy pulls out a gun, then he turns and slowly walks away from you after you aim yours at him. You're going to what, let him walk into the 7-****ing-11 and get a slurpee? **** no, you blast the mother****er before he turns around and BLASTS YOU.
It really depends... I mean did he point the slurpee like a gun?
We've simply entered a time in our culture/history that I think it's pretty much expected that a cop is to take a bullet (perhaps even a couple?) before he's expected to act with serious, possibly deadly, force.
I'm not saying one way or the other. I'm not excusing one side or dinging the other. I'm just saying that, over the past decade or so and with all the stories that have come out involving police and police-related shootings, when you listen to the community, the pundits, the families, the Left, some on the Right, students, activists of various stripes and leanings, etc.
I simply cannot recall - living the past decade in Orange County, San Diego, suburban Washington, DC, Nashville and Chattanooga - of a story along these lines, regardless of outcome, where the cop - not the person stopped for breaking any laws or otherwise being a menace or trouble - wasn't second-guessed, presumed guilty, armchair quarterbacked, questioned, maligned, etc.
If he/she does nothing, the might be dead. When they do react, they get investigated, suspended, hated by the public, questioned, called every name in the book (depending on who they shot).
No easy answers or anything to say that changes all this. Not from me anyway.
I do, however, sometimes think that certain people should perhaps investigate the possibilities of signing up for some sort of ride-along program on a Saturday night in a neighborhood or area not of your own safe, secure choosing.
I often think to myself how, exactly, would some of the most harsh and vocal critics of police react in the same situation? Would they be able to discern certain actions or intentions in a dark alley, in fractions of seconds?
Probably not.
Would most of them have the ability or whatever it takes to strap on a vest, kiss your spouse goodbye (each time knowing that could possibly be the last one) and head out to perform a largely underpaid, thankless job where you're viewed by many as "racist pigs", bullies or - at best - oppressive "party poopers" (you know, for actually trying to break up post-championship game riots and looting and so forth).
I doubt it. I really do.
Having said all that, I will go on record as saying the biggest asshole I know happens to be a police officer, so...
But I'd like to think he doesn't, in any way, represent the profession as a whole.
I just think it's sad - and somewhat telling - that a cop has to pretty much take one in the head or chest (and die in the street and be called "hero" at a funeral covered by the same media who, had he pulled the trigger first, would be all over his ass for the next month), JUST to get a fair, even shake by many.
Besides all of that, what kind of a useless, ****ing idiot would even PRODUCE a gun in the presence of a cop, regardless of which "direction he was walking" and NOT expect something bad to come of it?
There are bigger, more pressing and curious questions here, it seems.
\
If the cops ever pull me over and the best I can think to do is step out of the car holding a gun, I have to say I'd be a bit disappointed and confused if they DIDN'T shoot my stupid ass. White or otherwise.
The part of me that likes to set aside all the bullshit and emotions and "gearing up for a cause, just because" simply always wonders: how many of these situations, over the years, would've never progressed beyond a ticket or a single night in jail HAD the person being stopped or questions SIMPLY COOPERATED and did as asked/told for, what, 10-15 minutes?
Is it so damn hard to answer questions, keep your hands where they can be seen, not make any stupid sudden moves, not mouth off and show out because you rented "Boyz in the Hood" a while back and it got to you? Jeez.
I'd venture to say that not acting like an asshole and posing what could be considered a challenging threat could go a LONG way toward not getting a bullet in your ass.
Why, for the love of all that is holy, is this so hard?
I'll do an experiment...next time I get pulled over for speeding, I'm going to react counter to what ever fiber in my body is telling me: I'm going to hop out of the car with something shiny and small in my hand, wave it at the cops, yell and curse, refuse to lie down, refuse to produce any ID, reach into my car, give a couple of middle finger gestures, etc. and see, exactly, what follows.
I really think there's a chain of events that can't be stopped once you crank the adrenal glands to a certain setting. Best way not to start said unfortunate sequence is not to commit a crime in the first place. But if you do, and get caught, JUST CO-OPERATE, the courts will have you back on the street in no time, and you get free room and board while you wait.
Comments
Originally posted by Moogs
I didn't even take the time to read the story because a)I'm in a rush and b) it's a bad, bad thing either way. My only question is, does anyone believe it possible that at some point in the last 20 years, black cops have shot white guys in the back? Is it news? If they only unloaded 5 shots instead of 8 is it less offensive to our sensibilities?
Seriously, it's bad that it happened at all. But unless someone can prove something (I don't think it would be that hard to find out if these guys were white supremicist or otherwise vocal about any racist-like beliefs in the locker room), I don't see how the race of the involved parties is relevant. What if black cops had shot him 8 times under the exact same circumstance? Are they "oreo cookies" then?
Actually the organiation 100 blacks in law enforcement has shown that relative to white officers Black officers rarely shoot and kill suspects. I believe that in East Orange NJ no black officer has shot and killed any suspects, much less any white suspects. If this patern holds true across the country, then indeed there is a racial component. Again that the Justice Dept. own studies show that white(s) males are given more lenient sentances for the same crimes that blacks commit, show that the race issue is in fact endemic to 'the system.'
But again, until you are repeatedly harrassed on a street or highway for no reason at all, you won't understand.
Originally posted by Sondjata
Actually the organiation 100 blacks in law enforcement has shown that relative to white officers Black officers rarely shoot and kill suspects. I believe that in East Orange NJ no black officer has shot and killed any suspects, much less any white suspects. If this patern holds true across the country, then indeed there is a racial component. Again that the Justice Dept. own studies show that white(s) males are given more lenient sentances for the same crimes that blacks commit, show that the race issue is in fact endemic to 'the system.'
But again, until you are repeatedly harrassed on a street or highway for no reason at all, you won't understand.
Again and those same studies show that a black female will receive a lesser punishment FOR THE SAME CRIME than a white male.
The biggest factor in sentencing is gender. Does that mean isn't A factor, no. However it is not THE factor.
Nick
Originally posted by Sondjata
spanish-American war and every treaty broken with the natives
Of course now comes the real trick. Finding a group that came to power without aggression.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Again and those same studies show that a black female will receive a lesser punishment FOR THE SAME CRIME than a white male.
The biggest factor in sentencing is gender. Does that mean isn't A factor, no. However it is not THE factor.
Nick
but a black female will recieve a greater sentance than a white female, thereby showing that race trumps gender when gender is normalized.
On the low res video, the way the phone was held certainly could be contrued as a weapon (a handgun)
It also appears that the suspect did manage to turn and point, look at the way his body was twisted.
And though I only watched it once, but will see if I can get a better frame by frame view, it also looks like one officer did most of the shooting.
Hard to say at this point... but some things people should know about police and weapons. There is no such thing as shooting limbs or weapons out of a hand like in a John Wayne movie. ALL firearm training teaches, by force of repetition, to aim for the center of the torso. Add excitement to that and you get a conditioned response, back, front, it doesn't matter. Once a weapon (or percieved weapon) is drawn, and officers threatened, they will shoot (for the center of the torso) and in many many cases it probably doesn't matter if the assailant turns away, only absolute surrender, being prone, just like an animal, typically abates the "fight" response.
I'm hugely intrigued by the possibility that certain "race" crimes might be a function of conditioning and "fight or flight" as well as the dehumanizing aspect of plain old racism. Can't/won't say which is which in this case, yet...
Also, having viewed a few gun fights and war footage, the surrealism of a gun fight never fails to impress me. I've never seen one in real life, just a great many on tape, so I either don't have volume, or I can turn it down. The motions are so undramatic, pedestrian, boring. The results? Anything but... Something else I believe plays a role.
Back to your regularly scheduled race relations...
Originally posted by Scott
Actually this one bothers me a lot more. Did you miss it?
"No justice, no peace. We will burn your town down," shouted a protester.
Such blatantly racist things don't bother you?
Scott see racism everywhere. How is we will burn your town down racist? a) the race of the protester isnt mentioned and b) the town they are talking about is undoubtedly the same town in which the protester lives... Would you say that a single race of rioters burning down their own houses/buisness/apartment buildings is racist?
Originally posted by Sondjata
but a black female will recieve a greater sentance than a white female, thereby showing that race trumps gender when gender is normalized.
As I said it is a factor. I fully acknowledged that. However what you need to acknowledge is that while the difference between racial sentencing is about 10%-12% in length or prison terms, the difference in gender is often 200-500% in sentencing differences.
So to apply this, a black male may get 55 months for the crime. A white male would likely get 50 months for the crime. However a white woman would get 20 months and the black woman 24 months.
As I said it is a factor. You also should mention that our society has created highly delineated sentencing guidelines that attempt to stop any bias in sentencing, that income differences also exist, and people can plea bargain for lower sentences as well.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
snip snip
Nick
I think you are making Sondjata's point.
Originally posted by tonton
So by claiming our right as Americans to arm ourselves, are we not putting ourselves at risk hundreds, or thousands of times over? Of course we are. Only a moron would deny that.
This is about trigger-happy public servants, not guns.
Why do people in the US put themselves at risk if it isn't necessary for safety and protection? Are all those folks morons?
Guns in the hands of the public have costs, but they also have benefits, or people wouldn't own them. I can't believe that all of that "benefit" is due to the wannabe Rambos of the world.
Just before you go to sleep at night without having to worry about someone breaking into your home, say a brief word of thanks for all of the honest and hardworking folks out here who own weapons, train with them, and take the risk of having them in the house. Their efforts and expense make you safer, unless you live in one of those "gated" communities. By the way, you're welcome.
Canada has more guns per capita than we do in the US.
Canada has WAY fewer gun deaths per year than we do in the US.
More guns. Less deaths. The problem isn't the gun.
Originally posted by billybobsky
I think you are making Sondjata's point.
Why would I deny what is true? I could also point you to data that shows that black judges sentence black defendents to longer sentences than white judges.
Is there anyone else here who doesn't believe that a very poor black man is going to get a longer sentence than a rich white woman? Is that a collective DUH I hear?
We have sentencing guidelines to attempt to prevent this problem however if your attorney doesn't present X or Y, it won't show up in the guidelines. The guidelines are less restrictive with regard to sentencing of repeat offenders.
Of course we should the discuss the absolute number one variable with regard to sentencing and that is...
DON'T COMMIT A CRIME.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Of course we should the discuss the absolute number one variable with regard to sentencing and that is...
DON'T COMMIT A CRIME.
Well. Some don´t have to have made anyhing illegal to get sentenced...
Lastly the sticky issue of race. Every time I read a post in the AO forum about MODERN DAY Police (not the 1960s) picking on Black people I'm amazed. The honest truth from someone who is on the front lines is this: In general, most Police Officers try to avoid arresting, ticketing, or even questioning a black person like the plauge. The sad truth is that we are afraid to do anything. This forum is a perfect example of why - it immediately becomes about race instead of about a crime. Apparently this is a surprise to many of you - but Officers literaly cringe in their cars when they get sent to a crime with a black suspect. The first thought is here we go with the Police racism routine. If anything goes wrong or anyone gets arrested then the natural defense is that I must be a racist. In the city where I work black citizens routinely get away with conduct that would land a white person in jail. It's very simple - Officers are tired of being branded as racists so they don't act. I don't mean to offend anyone - I'm just telling you how it really is.
Thanks
I have no doubt based on what I saw that I would have fired also. As for the shots hitting his back - thats irrelevant. If someone points a gun in my face and then turns around, am I suposed to just stand there and wait for him to turn around again and shoot me in the face? This isn't a John Wayne Western where two men meet face to face in the street and draw - it's not supposed to be a fair fight - it's about the Officer trying to survive.
You guys are crazy. A guy pulls out a gun, then he turns and slowly walks away from you after you aim yours at him. You're going to what, let him walk into the 7-****ing-11 and get a slurpee? **** no, you blast the mother****er before he turns around and BLASTS YOU.
Originally posted by murbot
You guys are crazy. A guy pulls out a gun, then he turns and slowly walks away from you after you aim yours at him. You're going to what, let him walk into the 7-****ing-11 and get a slurpee? **** no, you blast the mother****er before he turns around and BLASTS YOU.
It really depends... I mean did he point the slurpee like a gun?
Nick
I'm not saying one way or the other. I'm not excusing one side or dinging the other. I'm just saying that, over the past decade or so and with all the stories that have come out involving police and police-related shootings, when you listen to the community, the pundits, the families, the Left, some on the Right, students, activists of various stripes and leanings, etc.
I simply cannot recall - living the past decade in Orange County, San Diego, suburban Washington, DC, Nashville and Chattanooga - of a story along these lines, regardless of outcome, where the cop - not the person stopped for breaking any laws or otherwise being a menace or trouble - wasn't second-guessed, presumed guilty, armchair quarterbacked, questioned, maligned, etc.
If he/she does nothing, the might be dead. When they do react, they get investigated, suspended, hated by the public, questioned, called every name in the book (depending on who they shot).
No easy answers or anything to say that changes all this. Not from me anyway.
I do, however, sometimes think that certain people should perhaps investigate the possibilities of signing up for some sort of ride-along program on a Saturday night in a neighborhood or area not of your own safe, secure choosing.
I often think to myself how, exactly, would some of the most harsh and vocal critics of police react in the same situation? Would they be able to discern certain actions or intentions in a dark alley, in fractions of seconds?
Probably not.
Would most of them have the ability or whatever it takes to strap on a vest, kiss your spouse goodbye (each time knowing that could possibly be the last one) and head out to perform a largely underpaid, thankless job where you're viewed by many as "racist pigs", bullies or - at best - oppressive "party poopers" (you know, for actually trying to break up post-championship game riots and looting and so forth).
I doubt it. I really do.
Having said all that, I will go on record as saying the biggest asshole I know happens to be a police officer, so...
But I'd like to think he doesn't, in any way, represent the profession as a whole.
I just think it's sad - and somewhat telling - that a cop has to pretty much take one in the head or chest (and die in the street and be called "hero" at a funeral covered by the same media who, had he pulled the trigger first, would be all over his ass for the next month), JUST to get a fair, even shake by many.
Besides all of that, what kind of a useless, ****ing idiot would even PRODUCE a gun in the presence of a cop, regardless of which "direction he was walking" and NOT expect something bad to come of it?
There are bigger, more pressing and curious questions here, it seems.
If the cops ever pull me over and the best I can think to do is step out of the car holding a gun, I have to say I'd be a bit disappointed and confused if they DIDN'T shoot my stupid ass. White or otherwise.
The part of me that likes to set aside all the bullshit and emotions and "gearing up for a cause, just because" simply always wonders: how many of these situations, over the years, would've never progressed beyond a ticket or a single night in jail HAD the person being stopped or questions SIMPLY COOPERATED and did as asked/told for, what, 10-15 minutes?
Is it so damn hard to answer questions, keep your hands where they can be seen, not make any stupid sudden moves, not mouth off and show out because you rented "Boyz in the Hood" a while back and it got to you? Jeez.
I'd venture to say that not acting like an asshole and posing what could be considered a challenging threat could go a LONG way toward not getting a bullet in your ass.
Why, for the love of all that is holy, is this so hard?
I'll do an experiment...next time I get pulled over for speeding, I'm going to react counter to what ever fiber in my body is telling me: I'm going to hop out of the car with something shiny and small in my hand, wave it at the cops, yell and curse, refuse to lie down, refuse to produce any ID, reach into my car, give a couple of middle finger gestures, etc. and see, exactly, what follows.
I'll let you all know.