Jon, you once quite strongly told me that it's bad form to critique a work in progress. Maybe you should follow your own advice and wait it out a bit? Hold your judgement until Monday. No need to develop hypertension at your age.
Quote:
Originally posted by musicaltone
If it is just different and new why isnt it standard. Look at the bar of the new 'activity monitor' for example. Why isnt this new 'selection marker' used there? I don't know, it just looks too much like a mix and match to me, title bars light alu when active but stripped (not transparent) when not, some apps have brushed alu others not ... and the new finder window just looks amateurish. Why move the shorcuts from the Toolbar to a sub window (incidentally why is there a space above applications?) . Also the Adobe InDesign 2.0 folder doesnt look like that, it has an image of the adobe butterfly imposed on it. Also, the DVD player doesnt have abutton to open that side tray. An how come the resolution of these captrues is better than when I look at the real thing on my 15" SD? And why the grabs with the background when you can do a proper grab and just grab each window? And why hide bits of the screen when you have already crossed the ethical line by supposedly leaking top secret images. Why not show it all? And if the large desktop shot is of 'expose' in action (apple would never use that name), why is Safari in the top bar? If Safari were active wouldnt the desktop return to normal?
Sigh. If you'd stop to think, you'd realize the reason behind there being "selection" in some apps and not others. The selection is quite obviously used to display which toolbar item is currently active. This is great for things like preference windows, where toolbars are used to navigate through various different views (like you see in System Preferences, Safari's Prefs, iChat's Prefs, etc.) With the Activity Monitor, the toolbar isn't being used to switch between different views, it is used to contain tools, none of which are active. The view-switching interface is below the table of apps.
The difference in the title bars lies in what the focus is. Windows shown in the background have stripes in the toolbars. I think it looks quite nice, as it blends in with the rest of the window.
Have you ever stopped to think that this is a pirated build of Panther? Has it occurred to you that the Adobe InDesign folder might contain an installer and a serial number?
As for the DVD player, did it occur to you that you can drag the window out? The button is the entire right metal portion.
"An how come the resolution of these captrues is better than when I look at the real thing on my 15" SD?" Internationally recognized English would do you some good, here. You might try selecting "Actual Size" in the View menu of Preview...if that is what you are talking about.
Do you remember Worker Bee? Of course you don't, you're a newbie here. Apple caught him for leaking information obtained under NDA. They took him to court. Now, if you were going to leak something, wouldn't you *like* to remove all characteristics that can trace the photos back to you? Say, for instance, an iChat buddy list or a video conference. The guy is taking extra precautions in being unidentifiable.
"Expos"? Um, it's expose, and the 'e' has an accent. But all the accents are turning up all funny in AI. And the 'e' sounds stupid accented. Why didn't apple just make it "expose", without the accent?
Oh, one more thing. That little bar in the iChat window isn't a progress bar. It's showing the input level for the microphone, similar to what you see in the Sound pane of the System Prefs, only more aquafied.
"Expos"? Um, it's expose, and the 'e' has an accent. But all the accents are turning up all funny in AI. And the 'e' sounds stupid accented. Why didn't apple just make it "expose", without the accent?
What browser are you using? They show up fine for me in Safari.
You could always get PathFinder or any number of file managers. I was talking about leaving the regular search in, but also putting a filter in the toolbar like in iTunes so if I'm looking for My big bad file.rtf, I can open the folder it's in, containing like 300 items, type in My b and have it narrowed down to less than a handful or results instantly.
The addition to the new Finder -- again, I'm assuming Panther has a snazzy new filesystem -- would be that you don't even have to find and/or open the folder before using a filter.
Just open a new Finder window and type in the Search field, "My big b..." and all files on your HD containing those words appear instantly in the window. To filter out those results, just continue to keep typing in the search field.
If you only want to filter results from a certain folder, then just navigate to that folder first, then conduct the search.
In other words, the Search field is both search engine and filter -- just like in the current Finder, only much more powerful.
I can easily imagine a search with more options being implemented like the power search at iTMS -- contained in a bar that pops up underneath...
I am amazed that just because some anonymous guy or gal posted some incomplete and unauthenticaed picutures of what is supposed to be 10.3 to a bulletin board, that so many people here have taken them as the gospel truth. What happened to the tradition of healthy scepticism that was present on this board only a few days ago?
'Cause they're clearly real -- if perhaps not up-to-date. They've got that new OS smell.
Thanks for the tip about how to produce an accented é, I would never have worked that out on my own, seeing as I have been a translator for the past 15 years. My point about the expose was that if it was running why was safari showing in the top menu bar? Surely if Safari was the active app then the desktop would return to normal. Or are you suggesting that expose allows you to work in apps in the minimized state? If so how do you go about reading what is in each tiny window? I dont know, maybee I am wrong but the whole thing just looks like a hoax to me and if it turns out to be true I think I will stay with 10.2 as I dont like what I see.
The new Finder in these screenies looks like shit. All that crap down the left hand side instead of the nice customisable toolbar we have now; reminds me of Windows 98 with all that "Web folder" crap.
The new Finder in these screenies looks like shit. All that crap down the left hand side instead of the nice customisable toolbar we have now; reminds me of Windows 98 with all that "Web folder" crap.
Hm, and what makes you think the toolbar in the new Finder can't be customized? Or the items in the bottom of the left-hand pane can't be?
I'd guess (and hope) that they can, but we just don't know yet.
The Finder in these screenshots doesn't look quite finished to me, not yet, but already you can see a significant difference between the source/favorites pane in the Panther Finder and the tasks pane in Windows Explorer. The Finder pane is all about showing where you are, and instant navigation to places. ie, focused on what the Finder's about -- getting to and finding things. In Windows Explorer, the task bar is filled with wizard-like tasks to perform on a chosen file, sometimes contextually-based.
I think I prefer the Finder's approach -- more focused on helping me *find* my file, instead of trying to guess what I want to do with it, and overeagerly offering aid. (Hello Windows.)
However, I do have to say that the contextually savvy task options in XP can be pretty cool -- e.g. offering to make a slideshow for a folder of images. I'd like to see how Apple could implement this, or offer similar functionality.
I dont know when Apple plan to finish all these bugs then if they are gonna launch on Monday as that build we saw in the screenies was dated 20 June!
We don't know how recent a build the pictures were taken from, no matter when they were taken, but Panther is not launching Monday. Only a beta seed for developers.
I wouldn't expect Panther for another 3-4 months.
Quote:
Originally posted by musicaltone
My point about the expose was that if it was running why was safari showing in the top menu bar? Surely if Safari was the active app then the desktop would return to normal. Or are you suggesting that expose allows you to work in apps in the minimized state? If so how do you go about reading what is in each tiny window?
My speculation is that Exposé doesn't run as its own app, it's a just feature that displays "over" the current app, with a animated display of all windows swooping in from off the screen, after moving the cursor to a screen corner, or the touch of customizable keystroke. It's only for switching to another window, either in the same app, or across all apps, quickly and efficiently. You don't work with the windows in their minimized states, only to click and switch to one.
It's like alt-tab on Windows, in other words, but undoubtedbly an order of magnitude more impressive.
Quote:
Originally posted by musicaltone I dont know, maybee I am wrong but the whole thing just looks like a hoax to me and if it turns out to be true I think I will stay with 10.2 as I dont like what I see.
Well, I wouldn't jump to conclusions on just a few unexplained, undocumented screenshots. Wait and see for the full explanation how the features work.
well while all of you are discusing the "new" 10.3 I just got my hands on 10.6 from steve's own desktop. miror as fast as you can before apple sends me a "cease and decist"!
In general the Macintosh GUI is really starting to look more and more like Windows.
Finder = Explorer
Dock = Task Bar
Safari tied to Mac OS = Internet Explorer tied to Windows
Apple Menu = Start Menu
Bzzt. Five point penalty. I'll address them in reverse order.
The Apple Menu now has nothing at all to do with the Start Menu (it doesn't even launch applications), so I'll assume you're talking about the old Apple Menu. The old Apple Menu never listed every program on your system; nor was it central in any sense. The Start menu serves as the huge global repository of all the things you can do on your system, where the old Apple Menu was just a list of shortcuts chosen by the user. Big difference.
Safari is not in any sense integrated in to the Mac OS. Apple has provided a default browser option since 10.0, and I have every reason to believe they'll continue to do so. In fact, other WebCore-based browsers will begin to appear, starting with OmniWeb, and Apple will no doubt want to support these, as well as other OS X-based browsers. As far as the HTML engine goes; shipping a capable HTML engine with your OS is a good idea. Many programs need HTML rendering these days, and having a high-quality open interface one available is an advantage for OS X.
The Dock and the Taskbar work on completely different metaphors. Have you ever used Windows? After about seven items fill the Taskbar, it starts to become unmanagable. You lose track of what each little window is, especially when they all have identical icons, and the metaphor just breaks down. Windows is a window-centric UI, so what the Taskbar manages are windows - and in the ordinary course of work, people generate a lot of those. This is, in my view, the single biggest Windows UI problem. Mac OS, on the other hand, is strongly application-oriented, and so the Dock manages applications. This is actually much better in practice, because people tend to think in terms of applications anyway.
The Explorer stole a lot from the Finder in the beginning, but Microsoft gradually started to move it to a more Web-like UI, which is how it operates today. The OS X finder basically put a faux web-like UI on top of the old NeXT finder (yes, I know they share no code, but the UI is still quite similar).
However, the column view - a view I hope becomes the default at some point - has a clear advantage over both the fake web-like UI and the old spatial finder. Assuming the old rule of thumb about humans not being able to track more than seven items simultaneously in their heads is correct, the spatial finder has a limit of seven items that I can be viewing at once. In practice, this is quite easy to reach - just start digging for data across folders. Organization could help, but there's a reason most people just revert to the old practice of putting everything on their desktop - they can identify items visually there, and don't have to deal with folder depths. Under column view, I can have seven windows of seven columns of seven subdirectory levels viewable on screen at once! This is a huge advantage in practice.
One thing to note when comparing OS X and Windows is how much Windows 95 stole from the NeXTStep look and feel. The Taskbar was an indirect clone of the NeXT Dock (done badly, as I explain above); the widget feel was pure NeXT; the only thing it didn't have was stability.
Of course Apple would love more Windows users, but it's not going to sacrifice ease of use to do so. Otherwise, why switch?
Comments
Originally posted by musicaltone
If it is just different and new why isnt it standard. Look at the bar of the new 'activity monitor' for example. Why isnt this new 'selection marker' used there? I don't know, it just looks too much like a mix and match to me, title bars light alu when active but stripped (not transparent) when not, some apps have brushed alu others not ... and the new finder window just looks amateurish. Why move the shorcuts from the Toolbar to a sub window (incidentally why is there a space above applications?) . Also the Adobe InDesign 2.0 folder doesnt look like that, it has an image of the adobe butterfly imposed on it. Also, the DVD player doesnt have abutton to open that side tray. An how come the resolution of these captrues is better than when I look at the real thing on my 15" SD? And why the grabs with the background when you can do a proper grab and just grab each window? And why hide bits of the screen when you have already crossed the ethical line by supposedly leaking top secret images. Why not show it all? And if the large desktop shot is of 'expose' in action (apple would never use that name), why is Safari in the top bar? If Safari were active wouldnt the desktop return to normal?
Sigh. If you'd stop to think, you'd realize the reason behind there being "selection" in some apps and not others. The selection is quite obviously used to display which toolbar item is currently active. This is great for things like preference windows, where toolbars are used to navigate through various different views (like you see in System Preferences, Safari's Prefs, iChat's Prefs, etc.) With the Activity Monitor, the toolbar isn't being used to switch between different views, it is used to contain tools, none of which are active. The view-switching interface is below the table of apps.
The difference in the title bars lies in what the focus is. Windows shown in the background have stripes in the toolbars. I think it looks quite nice, as it blends in with the rest of the window.
Have you ever stopped to think that this is a pirated build of Panther? Has it occurred to you that the Adobe InDesign folder might contain an installer and a serial number?
As for the DVD player, did it occur to you that you can drag the window out? The button is the entire right metal portion.
"An how come the resolution of these captrues is better than when I look at the real thing on my 15" SD?" Internationally recognized English would do you some good, here. You might try selecting "Actual Size" in the View menu of Preview...if that is what you are talking about.
Do you remember Worker Bee? Of course you don't, you're a newbie here. Apple caught him for leaking information obtained under NDA. They took him to court. Now, if you were going to leak something, wouldn't you *like* to remove all characteristics that can trace the photos back to you? Say, for instance, an iChat buddy list or a video conference. The guy is taking extra precautions in being unidentifiable.
Exposé is a fine name, although I suppose you would expect them to use a name that doesn't relate to the function at all. Like dumbass. Or 1337 H4XX0R. I don't think you are understanding how Exposé works. You put the cursor in a set corner of the screen, and the OS shows you all of your active windows. Why shouldn't Safari be there?
Little lesson for people who don't know how to make the é: Hold down the option key on your keyboard and then press the "e" button. Let up on the keys and press any vowel you want to get the accented version, (i.e. á, é, Ã*, ó, ú.)
Originally posted by Placebo
"Expos"?
What browser are you using? They show up fine for me in Safari.
it's been showing up funny for me too, but when I typed it myself it looks fine. odd.
Originally posted by iBrowse
You could always get PathFinder or any number of file managers. I was talking about leaving the regular search in, but also putting a filter in the toolbar like in iTunes so if I'm looking for My big bad file.rtf, I can open the folder it's in, containing like 300 items, type in My b and have it narrowed down to less than a handful or results instantly.
The addition to the new Finder -- again, I'm assuming Panther has a snazzy new filesystem -- would be that you don't even have to find and/or open the folder before using a filter.
Just open a new Finder window and type in the Search field, "My big b..." and all files on your HD containing those words appear instantly in the window. To filter out those results, just continue to keep typing in the search field.
If you only want to filter results from a certain folder, then just navigate to that folder first, then conduct the search.
In other words, the Search field is both search engine and filter -- just like in the current Finder, only much more powerful.
I can easily imagine a search with more options being implemented like the power search at iTMS -- contained in a bar that pops up underneath...
Originally posted by musicaltone
I am amazed that just because some anonymous guy or gal posted some incomplete and unauthenticaed picutures of what is supposed to be 10.3 to a bulletin board, that so many people here have taken them as the gospel truth. What happened to the tradition of healthy scepticism that was present on this board only a few days ago?
'Cause they're clearly real -- if perhaps not up-to-date. They've got that new OS smell.
We'll see on Monday.
People seem too rudely adamant while asserting rather speculative and uniformed positions. Good thing they are not in charge at apple.
Yes... Temporary Insanity
Yes, I realize this supposedly would be able to be changed . . .
Ehhh
If this were Panther - where are the "User at the Center" features?
If this was a real build wouldnt they want to convince us of that by actually showing those things?
Oh well, we have less than 2 days left.
Originally posted by lix
The new Finder in these screenies looks like shit. All that crap down the left hand side instead of the nice customisable toolbar we have now; reminds me of Windows 98 with all that "Web folder" crap.
Hm, and what makes you think the toolbar in the new Finder can't be customized? Or the items in the bottom of the left-hand pane can't be?
I'd guess (and hope) that they can, but we just don't know yet.
The Finder in these screenshots doesn't look quite finished to me, not yet, but already you can see a significant difference between the source/favorites pane in the Panther Finder and the tasks pane in Windows Explorer. The Finder pane is all about showing where you are, and instant navigation to places. ie, focused on what the Finder's about -- getting to and finding things. In Windows Explorer, the task bar is filled with wizard-like tasks to perform on a chosen file, sometimes contextually-based.
I think I prefer the Finder's approach -- more focused on helping me *find* my file, instead of trying to guess what I want to do with it, and overeagerly offering aid. (Hello Windows.)
However, I do have to say that the contextually savvy task options in XP can be pretty cool -- e.g. offering to make a slideshow for a folder of images. I'd like to see how Apple could implement this, or offer similar functionality.
Originally posted by fred_lj
Apple finally offering a consistent built-in fax engine for OS X will be nice.
Hear hear. Hope that's in there. It's long overdue.
Originally posted by musicaltone
I dont know when Apple plan to finish all these bugs then if they are gonna launch on Monday as that build we saw in the screenies was dated 20 June!
We don't know how recent a build the pictures were taken from, no matter when they were taken, but Panther is not launching Monday. Only a beta seed for developers.
I wouldn't expect Panther for another 3-4 months.
Originally posted by musicaltone
My point about the expose was that if it was running why was safari showing in the top menu bar? Surely if Safari was the active app then the desktop would return to normal. Or are you suggesting that expose allows you to work in apps in the minimized state? If so how do you go about reading what is in each tiny window?
My speculation is that Exposé doesn't run as its own app, it's a just feature that displays "over" the current app, with a animated display of all windows swooping in from off the screen, after moving the cursor to a screen corner, or the touch of customizable keystroke. It's only for switching to another window, either in the same app, or across all apps, quickly and efficiently. You don't work with the windows in their minimized states, only to click and switch to one.
It's like alt-tab on Windows, in other words, but undoubtedbly an order of magnitude more impressive.
Originally posted by musicaltone I dont know, maybee I am wrong but the whole thing just looks like a hoax to me and if it turns out to be true I think I will stay with 10.2 as I dont like what I see.
Well, I wouldn't jump to conclusions on just a few unexplained, undocumented screenshots. Wait and see for the full explanation how the features work.
Originally posted by Dave K.
In general the Macintosh GUI is really starting to look more and more like Windows.
Finder = Explorer
Dock = Task Bar
Safari tied to Mac OS = Internet Explorer tied to Windows
Apple Menu = Start Menu
Bzzt. Five point penalty. I'll address them in reverse order.
The Apple Menu now has nothing at all to do with the Start Menu (it doesn't even launch applications), so I'll assume you're talking about the old Apple Menu. The old Apple Menu never listed every program on your system; nor was it central in any sense. The Start menu serves as the huge global repository of all the things you can do on your system, where the old Apple Menu was just a list of shortcuts chosen by the user. Big difference.
Safari is not in any sense integrated in to the Mac OS. Apple has provided a default browser option since 10.0, and I have every reason to believe they'll continue to do so. In fact, other WebCore-based browsers will begin to appear, starting with OmniWeb, and Apple will no doubt want to support these, as well as other OS X-based browsers. As far as the HTML engine goes; shipping a capable HTML engine with your OS is a good idea. Many programs need HTML rendering these days, and having a high-quality open interface one available is an advantage for OS X.
The Dock and the Taskbar work on completely different metaphors. Have you ever used Windows? After about seven items fill the Taskbar, it starts to become unmanagable. You lose track of what each little window is, especially when they all have identical icons, and the metaphor just breaks down. Windows is a window-centric UI, so what the Taskbar manages are windows - and in the ordinary course of work, people generate a lot of those. This is, in my view, the single biggest Windows UI problem. Mac OS, on the other hand, is strongly application-oriented, and so the Dock manages applications. This is actually much better in practice, because people tend to think in terms of applications anyway.
The Explorer stole a lot from the Finder in the beginning, but Microsoft gradually started to move it to a more Web-like UI, which is how it operates today. The OS X finder basically put a faux web-like UI on top of the old NeXT finder (yes, I know they share no code, but the UI is still quite similar).
However, the column view - a view I hope becomes the default at some point - has a clear advantage over both the fake web-like UI and the old spatial finder. Assuming the old rule of thumb about humans not being able to track more than seven items simultaneously in their heads is correct, the spatial finder has a limit of seven items that I can be viewing at once. In practice, this is quite easy to reach - just start digging for data across folders. Organization could help, but there's a reason most people just revert to the old practice of putting everything on their desktop - they can identify items visually there, and don't have to deal with folder depths. Under column view, I can have seven windows of seven columns of seven subdirectory levels viewable on screen at once! This is a huge advantage in practice.
One thing to note when comparing OS X and Windows is how much Windows 95 stole from the NeXTStep look and feel. The Taskbar was an indirect clone of the NeXT Dock (done badly, as I explain above); the widget feel was pure NeXT; the only thing it didn't have was stability.
Of course Apple would love more Windows users, but it's not going to sacrifice ease of use to do so. Otherwise, why switch?