There was a rumor here a while back about some electronics manufacturer in Taiwan producing motherboards in two different sizes. With the advent of the G5 towers, I wouldn't think it would be them (or would the two sizes account for dual/singles? I dunno).
If I recall, they said a longer motherboard and a shorter motherboard were being produced. And if Apple does indeed go "out of the box" for the next major PowerBook update, this would seem to match the speculation that no further 15" PowerBooks are to be made, or either a single wider motherboard works in both the 15" and 17" models.
Trouble is, we never got the specs of the circuitry on those darn things! I took the rumor with a grain of salt then and still do now, but it seems to match up with this wild idea. I KNOW Apple would love to have a low-priced G4-powered consumer laptop; and moving the iBook to the specs of the former PowerBooks would do it. But what would be in store for the "professional" line? I think Apple engineers have already figured out the architectural requirements for dropping a 970 in the PowerBooks (from the keynote it would seem Apple went to IBM first with an idea for stripping down their Power4 CPU --- who knows how long they've been working on it in actuality).
The circuit board on the lowest of the three new G5s is different from the others. If nothing else it has PCI slots, not PCI-X slots for one thing. Is it a different size? Don't know yet.
Heat issue is one reason, but I believe Apple will not deliver 970 based powerbooks anytime soon for another reason too: a 970-powerbook will be a 64-bit portable computer; but who actually needs 64-bit portable power right now? I think such a laptop is well ahead of its time if delivered today or in this year anyway. And Apple must be careful with such decisions.
For now, bus-enhanced G4's at higher frequencies are the ideal solution for the next 1 or 2 years to come.
Heat issue is one reason, but I believe Apple will not deliver 970 based powerbooks anytime soon for another reason too: a 970-powerbook will be a 64-bit portable computer; but who actually needs 64-bit portable power right now? I think such a laptop is well ahead of its time if delivered today or in this year anyway. And Apple must be careful with such decisions.
For now, bus-enhanced G4's at higher frequencies are the ideal solution for the next 1 or 2 years to come.
The Powerbook is pitched as a professional's computer (professional video, sound editing, graphic design, etc.) - and is also billed as a desktop replacement. I don't think Apple can just sit back and wait a couple of years and think people are going to be satisfied with using less than the G5 for long.
If Apple doesn't have G5 Powerbooks by MWSF, I'll be pretty disappointed. The model is crying out for that sort of power (perhaps not duals, but at least a single 970). I'm sure there are a couple of G5 Powerbooks running around Cupertino right now.
You guys DO realize that we're suddenly sitting here ragging on 1.2 and 1.4GHz G4s in PowerBooks? Acting, suddenly, as if that only constitues a "hobby computer" and not a "serious desktop replacement"?
7 days ago, every one of you would've killed your neighbor to own a 1GHz G4 PowerBook. Now, some of you aren't even going to consider anything less than a G5, as though the G4 just immediately went to shit and is no longer worthy of consideration or use?
Only the G5 is capable of true, heavy work? We've just been "playing around" and marking time, these past few years? Please. Spare me...
\
"Yeah, get a 1.3GHz PowerBook to surf and check e-mail on the road...maybe light design work, like laying out a business card in PageMaker. But get a G5 tower for home and use it while there...".
Yes, and spend $6000 to do so? No thanks. I REALLY hope some of you are in no way, shape or form in charge of money, purchase decisions, budget matters, equipment-buying, etc. at your respective jobs. The entire office would be sitting around on their hands, waiting for G6 iBooks and 33" Cinema Displays.
You guys DO realize that we're suddenly sitting here ragging on 1.2 and 1.4GHz G4s in PowerBooks? Acting, suddenly, as if that only constitues a "hobby computer" and not a "serious desktop replacement"?
7 days ago, every one of you would've killed your neighbor to own a 1GHz G4 PowerBook. Now, some of you aren't even going to consider anything less than a G5, as though the G4 just immediately went to shit and is no longer worthy of consideration or use?
Only the G5 is capable of true, heavy work? We've just been "playing around" and marking time, these past few years? Please. Spare me...
\
"Yeah, get a 1.3GHz PowerBook to surf and check e-mail on the road...maybe light design work, like laying out a business card in PageMaker. But get a G5 tower for home and use it while there...".
Yes, and spend $6000 to do so? No thanks. I REALLY hope some of you are in no way, shape or form in charge of money, purchase decisions, budget matters, equipment-buying, etc. at your respective jobs. The entire office would be sitting around on their hands, waiting for G6 iBooks and 33" Cinema Displays.
***SMACK!!!***
The problem is that you right. The Powerbook is NOT a "hobby computer" it is supposed to be a professional desktop replacement. Yet it has the same chip and speed of the consumer/hobby systems (the iMac and lowly eMac). The desktop from Apple now is a G5. Why wouldn't someone in the "year of the laptop" want their top of the line, professional, desktop replacing laptop to have the top of the line chip.
I think the G4 is a very capable chip. But when Apple uses it in the consumer machines (the iMac and eMac) and then tells the world that the best and most powerful computers have a G5... I want a G5. I don't have the luxury (because I am the one making the purchase decisions... because it's my money) to have both a top of the line Powerbook and a G5 desktop system at home. I don't have the money for two complete systems.
The Powerbook is used on the road by video professionals, photographers and graphic designers who use programs like Photoshop which the G5 seems designed to work with. These people need the power.
Seven days ago I would not have killed for a 1.2 ghz Powerbook. Seven days ago I was hoping they were going to release the G5 Powerbook... and I'll be waiting (using my Tibook) until they do.
Whatever Apple's design rhetoric about quieter fans might be, just look at the new PMG5 for a second. Look at those huge ass heat sinks, the giant case that despite it's largess and perforatoratron front and rear panels needs so much air that between fans and baffles it barely had room for half the expansion of the older (smaller) machine, and the increase in entry level price. Whatever IBM may have initially claimed about low clocked PPC970 parts, it looks like those pre-production numbers were somewhat optimistic. IBM is still way ahead of 64 bit offerings from Intel and AMD, and we'll sure see their applicationn in a laptop first, but that it's still a ways off.
Now turning back to Intel. Centrino is the only laptop tech that matters there. Show me a 3Ghz+ Intel "laptop" and not a desktop with 1 hour battery life wedged into a 8 lb 2" thick case. You can't. A 1.33+ G4 will happily stack up against the best wintelon "mobile" chips.
Heck, my 867 MHz G4 with 768 MB RAM and its amazing graphics card (can't beat ATI) does in a PC laptop any day. I just want to see Steve follow through with his "year of the portable" cliche, even though he isn't going to. I bet he forgot about it. IBM came around with the 970 much quicker than anticipated, and he pretty much forgot about his catch phrase. Face it, this is the truth.
Only just recently have PowerBooks played in the ballpark with their desktop big brothers; and this was because of Motorola's unbelievably sluggish development of the G4. With IBM, assuming they stay "enthused" with Apple for a while, we could see the parity between Power Macs and PowerBooks return simply because of the physical nature of the two different machines. And don't get me wrong; both will rock, but the tower will be king from here on out...at least for a little while, until DNA-driven organic circuitry comes to pass and heat evolution is no longer an issue.
A 1.33+ G4 will happily stack up against the best wintelon "mobile" chips.
Geez Matsu. How about a little consistency, or are you still RDF'd out. This is Apple. They can't just stack up. They have to either win on price (not bloody likely), performance (more possible these days) or overall system specs.
I think the days of the G4 PowerBooks are numbered. It seems that all models have some delay, and with prices being slashed on 12" and 15" models, something is up. And talk of certain stores carrying laptop hardware addons thrown in til July 12th is certainly entertaining grist for the rumor mill (sorry Programmer to steal your tag). I think there are big things in store for PowerBooks these days.
Question is when? With Power Mac's getting all the attention these days, i think it in Apple's best interests to keep them there until sales start slowing, or shipping dates have past (Aug 15/30). I would guess a G5 PowerBook being pre-announced or available at Paris Expo Sept 16th.
Just to add fuel to the fire... I'll make a few predictions based on how things have been developing as of late. I know that I've made predictions before, but hey - Mac rumour sites are all about trying to nail down specs in advance!
So here's what I see in mid-2003 (and yes, I know that rhymes):
12" PowerBook:
- 1 GHz G4, 512K L2 cache
- 133 MHz system bus
- 32 MB GeForce FX 5200 Go video
- 60 or 80 GB hard drive
- Combo drive or Superdrive
- Airport Extreme ready
15" PowerBook
- 1.33 GHz G4, 512K L2 cache, 1 MB L3 cache
- 133 MHz system bus
- 64 MB Mobility Radeon 9600 video
- 60 or 80 GB hard drive
- Combo drive or Superdrive
- Airport Extreme card
17" PowerBook:
- 1.33 GHz G4, 512K L2 cache, 1 MB L3 cache
- 167 MHz system bus
- 64 MB GeForce FX 5600 Go video
- 80 GB hard drive
- Superdrive
- Airport Extreme card
So in other words... a hefty speed bump (roughly 33% faster in CPU speed) if Apple can manage it, but a speed bump nonetheless. Hopefully we won't have to wait as long for the PowerBook G5 as we did for the PowerBook G4, but I don't see the new chip arriving in laptops until 2004.
I do not see why the 12" would have a 133mhz bus instead of an at least (what is the mpx max? IIRC 200mhz?) 167mhz bus. In fact I do not see why the 17" currently has a 167mhz bus but the 12" has a 133mhz bus. This would probably goose a considerable amount of performance out of the 12". But of course Apple has to cripple the 12" to make the 17" look better. Just like my IIsi, just like my iBook...Apple's method of crippleware is getting fücking annoying and is outdated. People don't CARE as much about specs when choosing between the 12 and 17, they're both fast portables. It's about size. Which Apple clearly represents. So why did they cripple me yet again! Frickin NVIDIA too... I always get crippleware.
Realistically, when will we see the Powerbook G5s?
Will it be MWSF in January (Then Apple would be bringing out major hardware updates about every 6 months... not bad to keep sales up and their name in the news)?
Or will it be late 2004?
MacBidouille posts that the 980 will be out in 2004... the Powerbook wouldn't be still running a G4 when the tower is running a G6 will it?
I have no information, but if you do or if you have well thought out speculation, I'd like to hear it.
"The year of the laptop" was nothing more than a "head fake" to keep expectations for the G5 low, thus helping continuing sales of the G4 towers for the first half of the year.
Much as I would like to see a G5 Power Book ASAP, because that will be my next Apple, I don't see it until IBM goes to the 90 nm process.
As far as dropping the 15" Power Book, that would be an extremely bad move. The 12" is to small and the 17" is too big. The 15" is just right. Even at the same price I would pick the 15" over the 17" without even having to think about it.
Of course if the monster book went to dual G4's then I might have to think a bit before I chose the 15" single over the 17", but would still probably go with the 15" if it was significantly cheaper.
Let's assume that the 15" PB goes Al and G4 7457 in the next few weeks. Let's also assume that the PB, for technical reasons, can't get a G5 till the 980 comes out roughly a year from now. Typically Apple updates the PBs every six months or so. That leaves time for one substantial upgrade to a G4 PB. Any idea what Motorola has in the pipeline after the 7457 that could be used for that upgrade? Would it be just a 7457 with a faster clock?
Thinking outside the box, what about a G3 with Altivec from IBM? (Mojave?)
Any idea what Motorola has in the pipeline after the 7457 that could be used for that upgrade? Would it be just a 7457 with a faster clock?
\\
Seems like I've read in several places that the 7457 maxes out at 1.3Ghz. I wonder why and where that comes from? It would seem logical to me that it would eventually run faster; perhaps not.
As far as Motorola actually delivering a 7457 for Apple? I wouldn't count on it. They have other plans and need to keep their own business in mind over anything they do for Apple. It seems their bread and butter these days is the embedded market and I really don't see much advancement in the way of desktop processors for Apple.
According to Motorola's docs:
Building on Motorola's continued innovation and performance leadership in the high-performance host processor market, the MPC7457 achieves two major milestones in the embedded world: It delivers 1.3 GHz of performance--making it Motorola's fastest PowerPC? processor available for embedded applications. It also dissipates less than 10W while running at 1 GHz--a critical threshold for many power-sensitive embedded designs.
Doesn't sound like they are even looking at this sucker as a desktop processor, more an embedded processor. Heck, the 7455 reaches 1.42GHz, which is more than the low power consuming, smaller build process 7457.
But hasn't Apple been using embedded processors from Motorola? By that, I mean, isn't the G4 "intended" for embedded applications?
Yes. And according to something I read recently (the Register?) the 7457 seems to be almost available in volume. Some other company recently started offering samples of embedded boards with the 7457.
There is no rule that says you can't use an embedded processor in a desktop. It is just that the needs of each application are a little different. Embedded applications usually run on less power and require less speed. Desktops usually want speed over power savings. On the other hand, a laptop is a good example of an embedded application.
Since we are all out fishing about for new PB specs I'll throw in my 2 cents. I dont think that the PB will see the G5 till next year at the earliest. I hope I am wrong, but will not be holding my breath. I think Apple should ifferentiate the Pb models purely on size, but unfortunately, heat issues will limit the 12". If Moto can get the 7457 into production then maybe the 12 can also run at 1 gig or maybe even 1.3. Aside from a G5 what I'd like to see in the next ffew months is this:
12" 1.3 Gig with 1 Mb L3
15" 1.3 Gig with 1 Mb L3
17" Dual 1.3 Gig with 1Mb L3 each
Price drops would be nice, but I dont see it happening.
We could then have a truer desktop replacement in the 17" and the 12 and 15" ers would be competative in the market against the Centrino offerings.
Yes. And according to something I read recently (the Register?) the 7457 seems to be almost available in volume. Some other company recently started offering samples of embedded boards with the 7457.
There is no rule that says you can't use an embedded processor in a desktop. It is just that the needs of each application are a little different. Embedded applications usually run on less power and require less speed. Desktops usually want speed over power savings. On the other hand, a laptop is a good example of an embedded application.
I guess I am used to Motorola's designation as host processor versus embedded processor.
Comments
Originally posted by fred_lj
There was a rumor here a while back about some electronics manufacturer in Taiwan producing motherboards in two different sizes. With the advent of the G5 towers, I wouldn't think it would be them (or would the two sizes account for dual/singles? I dunno).
If I recall, they said a longer motherboard and a shorter motherboard were being produced. And if Apple does indeed go "out of the box" for the next major PowerBook update, this would seem to match the speculation that no further 15" PowerBooks are to be made, or either a single wider motherboard works in both the 15" and 17" models.
Trouble is, we never got the specs of the circuitry on those darn things! I took the rumor with a grain of salt then and still do now, but it seems to match up with this wild idea. I KNOW Apple would love to have a low-priced G4-powered consumer laptop; and moving the iBook to the specs of the former PowerBooks would do it. But what would be in store for the "professional" line? I think Apple engineers have already figured out the architectural requirements for dropping a 970 in the PowerBooks (from the keynote it would seem Apple went to IBM first with an idea for stripping down their Power4 CPU --- who knows how long they've been working on it in actuality).
The circuit board on the lowest of the three new G5s is different from the others. If nothing else it has PCI slots, not PCI-X slots for one thing. Is it a different size? Don't know yet.
For now, bus-enhanced G4's at higher frequencies are the ideal solution for the next 1 or 2 years to come.
Originally posted by PB
Heat issue is one reason, but I believe Apple will not deliver 970 based powerbooks anytime soon for another reason too: a 970-powerbook will be a 64-bit portable computer; but who actually needs 64-bit portable power right now? I think such a laptop is well ahead of its time if delivered today or in this year anyway. And Apple must be careful with such decisions.
For now, bus-enhanced G4's at higher frequencies are the ideal solution for the next 1 or 2 years to come.
The Powerbook is pitched as a professional's computer (professional video, sound editing, graphic design, etc.) - and is also billed as a desktop replacement. I don't think Apple can just sit back and wait a couple of years and think people are going to be satisfied with using less than the G5 for long.
If Apple doesn't have G5 Powerbooks by MWSF, I'll be pretty disappointed. The model is crying out for that sort of power (perhaps not duals, but at least a single 970). I'm sure there are a couple of G5 Powerbooks running around Cupertino right now.
7 days ago, every one of you would've killed your neighbor to own a 1GHz G4 PowerBook. Now, some of you aren't even going to consider anything less than a G5, as though the G4 just immediately went to shit and is no longer worthy of consideration or use?
Only the G5 is capable of true, heavy work? We've just been "playing around" and marking time, these past few years? Please. Spare me...
"Yeah, get a 1.3GHz PowerBook to surf and check e-mail on the road...maybe light design work, like laying out a business card in PageMaker. But get a G5 tower for home and use it while there...".
Yes, and spend $6000 to do so? No thanks. I REALLY hope some of you are in no way, shape or form in charge of money, purchase decisions, budget matters, equipment-buying, etc. at your respective jobs. The entire office would be sitting around on their hands, waiting for G6 iBooks and 33" Cinema Displays.
***SMACK!!!***
Originally posted by pscates
You guys DO realize that we're suddenly sitting here ragging on 1.2 and 1.4GHz G4s in PowerBooks? Acting, suddenly, as if that only constitues a "hobby computer" and not a "serious desktop replacement"?
7 days ago, every one of you would've killed your neighbor to own a 1GHz G4 PowerBook. Now, some of you aren't even going to consider anything less than a G5, as though the G4 just immediately went to shit and is no longer worthy of consideration or use?
Only the G5 is capable of true, heavy work? We've just been "playing around" and marking time, these past few years? Please. Spare me...
"Yeah, get a 1.3GHz PowerBook to surf and check e-mail on the road...maybe light design work, like laying out a business card in PageMaker. But get a G5 tower for home and use it while there...".
Yes, and spend $6000 to do so? No thanks. I REALLY hope some of you are in no way, shape or form in charge of money, purchase decisions, budget matters, equipment-buying, etc. at your respective jobs. The entire office would be sitting around on their hands, waiting for G6 iBooks and 33" Cinema Displays.
***SMACK!!!***
The problem is that you right. The Powerbook is NOT a "hobby computer" it is supposed to be a professional desktop replacement. Yet it has the same chip and speed of the consumer/hobby systems (the iMac and lowly eMac). The desktop from Apple now is a G5. Why wouldn't someone in the "year of the laptop" want their top of the line, professional, desktop replacing laptop to have the top of the line chip.
I think the G4 is a very capable chip. But when Apple uses it in the consumer machines (the iMac and eMac) and then tells the world that the best and most powerful computers have a G5... I want a G5. I don't have the luxury (because I am the one making the purchase decisions... because it's my money) to have both a top of the line Powerbook and a G5 desktop system at home. I don't have the money for two complete systems.
The Powerbook is used on the road by video professionals, photographers and graphic designers who use programs like Photoshop which the G5 seems designed to work with. These people need the power.
Seven days ago I would not have killed for a 1.2 ghz Powerbook. Seven days ago I was hoping they were going to release the G5 Powerbook... and I'll be waiting (using my Tibook) until they do.
Now turning back to Intel. Centrino is the only laptop tech that matters there. Show me a 3Ghz+ Intel "laptop" and not a desktop with 1 hour battery life wedged into a 8 lb 2" thick case. You can't. A 1.33+ G4 will happily stack up against the best wintelon "mobile" chips.
Only just recently have PowerBooks played in the ballpark with their desktop big brothers; and this was because of Motorola's unbelievably sluggish development of the G4. With IBM, assuming they stay "enthused" with Apple for a while, we could see the parity between Power Macs and PowerBooks return simply because of the physical nature of the two different machines. And don't get me wrong; both will rock, but the tower will be king from here on out...at least for a little while, until DNA-driven organic circuitry comes to pass and heat evolution is no longer an issue.
A 1.33+ G4 will happily stack up against the best wintelon "mobile" chips.
Geez Matsu. How about a little consistency, or are you still RDF'd out. This is Apple. They can't just stack up. They have to either win on price (not bloody likely), performance (more possible these days) or overall system specs.
Question is when? With Power Mac's getting all the attention these days, i think it in Apple's best interests to keep them there until sales start slowing, or shipping dates have past (Aug 15/30). I would guess a G5 PowerBook being pre-announced or available at Paris Expo Sept 16th.
So here's what I see in mid-2003 (and yes, I know that rhymes):
12" PowerBook:
- 1 GHz G4, 512K L2 cache
- 133 MHz system bus
- 32 MB GeForce FX 5200 Go video
- 60 or 80 GB hard drive
- Combo drive or Superdrive
- Airport Extreme ready
15" PowerBook
- 1.33 GHz G4, 512K L2 cache, 1 MB L3 cache
- 133 MHz system bus
- 64 MB Mobility Radeon 9600 video
- 60 or 80 GB hard drive
- Combo drive or Superdrive
- Airport Extreme card
17" PowerBook:
- 1.33 GHz G4, 512K L2 cache, 1 MB L3 cache
- 167 MHz system bus
- 64 MB GeForce FX 5600 Go video
- 80 GB hard drive
- Superdrive
- Airport Extreme card
So in other words... a hefty speed bump (roughly 33% faster in CPU speed) if Apple can manage it, but a speed bump nonetheless. Hopefully we won't have to wait as long for the PowerBook G5 as we did for the PowerBook G4, but I don't see the new chip arriving in laptops until 2004.
Will it be MWSF in January (Then Apple would be bringing out major hardware updates about every 6 months... not bad to keep sales up and their name in the news)?
Or will it be late 2004?
MacBidouille posts that the 980 will be out in 2004... the Powerbook wouldn't be still running a G4 when the tower is running a G6 will it?
I have no information, but if you do or if you have well thought out speculation, I'd like to hear it.
Much as I would like to see a G5 Power Book ASAP, because that will be my next Apple, I don't see it until IBM goes to the 90 nm process.
As far as dropping the 15" Power Book, that would be an extremely bad move. The 12" is to small and the 17" is too big. The 15" is just right. Even at the same price I would pick the 15" over the 17" without even having to think about it.
Of course if the monster book went to dual G4's then I might have to think a bit before I chose the 15" single over the 17", but would still probably go with the 15" if it was significantly cheaper.
Aphelion ...
Thinking outside the box, what about a G3 with Altivec from IBM? (Mojave?)
Originally posted by neutrino23
Any idea what Motorola has in the pipeline after the 7457 that could be used for that upgrade? Would it be just a 7457 with a faster clock?
\\
Seems like I've read in several places that the 7457 maxes out at 1.3Ghz. I wonder why and where that comes from? It would seem logical to me that it would eventually run faster; perhaps not.
According to Motorola's docs:
Building on Motorola's continued innovation and performance leadership in the high-performance host processor market, the MPC7457 achieves two major milestones in the embedded world: It delivers 1.3 GHz of performance--making it Motorola's fastest PowerPC? processor available for embedded applications. It also dissipates less than 10W while running at 1 GHz--a critical threshold for many power-sensitive embedded designs.
Doesn't sound like they are even looking at this sucker as a desktop processor, more an embedded processor. Heck, the 7455 reaches 1.42GHz, which is more than the low power consuming, smaller build process 7457.
Originally posted by fred_lj
But hasn't Apple been using embedded processors from Motorola? By that, I mean, isn't the G4 "intended" for embedded applications?
Yes. And according to something I read recently (the Register?) the 7457 seems to be almost available in volume. Some other company recently started offering samples of embedded boards with the 7457.
There is no rule that says you can't use an embedded processor in a desktop. It is just that the needs of each application are a little different. Embedded applications usually run on less power and require less speed. Desktops usually want speed over power savings. On the other hand, a laptop is a good example of an embedded application.
12" 1.3 Gig with 1 Mb L3
15" 1.3 Gig with 1 Mb L3
17" Dual 1.3 Gig with 1Mb L3 each
Price drops would be nice, but I dont see it happening.
We could then have a truer desktop replacement in the 17" and the 12 and 15" ers would be competative in the market against the Centrino offerings.
Well one can only dream.
Originally posted by neutrino23
Yes. And according to something I read recently (the Register?) the 7457 seems to be almost available in volume. Some other company recently started offering samples of embedded boards with the 7457.
There is no rule that says you can't use an embedded processor in a desktop. It is just that the needs of each application are a little different. Embedded applications usually run on less power and require less speed. Desktops usually want speed over power savings. On the other hand, a laptop is a good example of an embedded application.
I guess I am used to Motorola's designation as host processor versus embedded processor.