Actually, the only one who said anything about the filesystem layout was BRussell... the rest of us are discussing metadata issues.
BRussell counts as a human separate from myself! You evil man you!
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'Home' is where your files live. Files you create, files you organize, files you care about.
That is not what Apple has been telling me for the last 18 years. And I'm someone who has been using Macs since I knew what computers were.
I can understand making a change if there's a reason. The reason there are so many problems with the Finder that weren't there in OS9 is because Apple unnecessarily changed the way we interact with the computer. Unnecessarily.
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Yes, much. The old structure limited what Apple could do, tremendously. It was static, and hardcoded. The new approach is highly abstracted, and the Panther Finder shows this. This is *good*.
Good for who? Because it's confusing to me and just about everyone else I've installed OSX for. Better than OS9 overall but
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The first (not caring about privacy) *can* be handled with Groups. Just set your filespace to be writable by everyone in a certain group. Done.
What groups?
Permissions issues are the single most confusing and frustrating things with OSX and I don't see how Apple is making that any better. When I launch Mail or Safari it asks me for access to something or other, I always pick "Always Allow" and it still asks me at seemingly random intervals. This is Windows bullshit, not MacOS.
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The second, sharing files, could be done by making aliases in two of the accounts to the folders in the third, after performing the above step. Done.
I've been creating all folders in the root and putting aliases on their desktops and having them bypass the whole Home business entirely. There's no reason for them to worry about it.
The Home method is just overly-complex. For Christ's sake there is a folder called Desktop that has what's on my desktop! Hello Win2k, nice to meet you! What is the purpose of that?
That whole business should be the option with a simpler default method.
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No. Because having 'your' files suddenly be changed behind your back (when Mom logged in, for instance) is even more confusing to most folks.
Was this a problem with older versions of MacOS?
I remember using
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And most people want security these days, so having a private and locked down filespace by default makes sense. Leaving things open footloose and fancy free because 'that's what the customer wants... really... we swear...' is M$'s idiocy at work. You *really* want that kind of virus/worm/script problem on your machine?
Er... isn't this how it worked forever and all without catastrophic world meltdown?
I'm not saying annihilate the Home method from all existence, just simplify it or provide simpler options. But it's not going to happen so I should just develop the requisite Stockholm syndrome.
I happen to like the way OS8/9 worked. Not the way it performed, but the way it worked.
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Er, explain how so?
Because someone switches from where the other person was in 3 seconds and doesn't have access to anything the other person was doing.
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Alright, now you just need thorazine. Column view is a *godsend*.[/B]
Come on, even Jobs was dogging it during the WWDC keynote. It sucks. Hard.
No, I'm not "glad there's a new Finder interface."
I appreciate the new volumes sidebar, since I can turn it off. I would be all over brushed metal, if I could revert to Aqua. As it stands right now, I hate brushed metal so much that it eclipses the significant advances to the Finder in Panther.
Apple, please give me the option to disable brushed metal. \
I don't get the hatred of the metal. It looks to me like it has the same functionality of the white/stripes - even more, because you can grab and drag in more places. So it must just be the look or the color or something.
Steve wasn't really critiquing Column View, which is just excellent for tunneling through lots of directories, very quickly, but making a corollary to your point -- it's silly that the user's folder, the Home folder, is *seen* as 4 levels down.
Panther addresses this by putting instant access to the Home folder (and other places) in a pane in every window, should you choose to use it. It's more than skin deep --- this pane basically replaces what used to the the first column in Column View, and when you navigate to your Home, restrains you from being able to scroll back to Users. Smart idea, but the real potential innovation in the Pantehr Finder is that amazing search field. I can see that utterly changing the way I work with the Finder. It looks great.
If you want to work around using your Home folder, by the way, you're certainly free to; but it's working against the way OS X handles security, which is a significant change from OS 9. (For example, I don't believe FileVault will work if you don't keep your files in Home.)
Letting go of the fact your personal files aren't in a folder on your root drive but a folder with your username in another folder named Users isn't as nearly bad you may think (speaking as someone who's been using a Mac for over 10 years). I recommend giving it a try, when you're ready. Apple is making it as easy as I've seen it done, and Panther seems to make this transition even easier (and nicer, too).
I don't get the hatred of the metal. It looks to me like it has the same functionality of the white/stripes - even more, because you can grab and drag in more places. So it must just be the look or the color or something.
Can someone explain? I'd like to hate it too.
I can't *too* worked up about it, but here's my understanding of why people object:
- Some find (very strongly) that it looks cheesy and unattractive.
- Others are frustrated by Apple's vague and shifting guidelines when it should be applied.
I myself find it a little cheesy, especially when seen or used in largish swatches of empty space. But it's growing on me (maybe I'm just getting used to it).
Surprisingly, I find that I do like having two different flavors of window appearances. It keeps life interesting. I just wish there were better rules why an app is one or the other.
I think Apple should open up some limited "themes" for the OS, but they seem to be putting it off for as long as they possibly can. One day I'd love to see something akin to this in the Appearance preferences:
Window appearance:
Standard - Aqua, Brushed Metal, Glass
iApps - Brushed Metal, Glass
Finder - Aqua, Brushed Metal, Glass
Glass being a completely stripeless version of Aqua, a near-opaque glossy white with transparencies when inactive.
BRussell counts as a human separate from myself! You evil man you!
Thanks for noticing!
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That is not what Apple has been telling me for the last 18 years. And I'm someone who has been using Macs since I knew what computers were.
Newbie, huh?
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I can understand making a change if there's a reason. The reason there are so many problems with the Finder that weren't there in OS9 is because Apple unnecessarily changed the way we interact with the computer. Unnecessarily.
I disagree. I honestly can't see using the old Finder/UI/file layout approach with X. It just wouldn't *work*, not with networks and multiple users and such everywhere. The 'users' in 9 were a nasty nasty hack that never melded well with the rest of the system.
9 was a direct descendant of an OS that was designed when networks were something for mainframes only, computers were novel enough that there was no concept of 'users' for the average purchaser, security wasn't even a consideration, etc, etc, etc.
The computing world has changed considerably since then, and 9 was, sorrily, left far behind.
X provides a much better *base* for the next decade or so... but the task Apple had was not to make X like 9, but to make X the best experience it *could* be, given the new shifts.
They're not there yet, but they're still ahead of anyone else, IMNSHO.
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Good for who? Because it's confusing to me and just about everyone else I've installed OSX for. Better than OS9 overall but
Editing error?
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What groups?
Permissions issues are the single most confusing and frustrating things with OSX and I don't see how Apple is making that any better.
They aren't great, I'll grant you. Too much exposed Unixy goodness... but OTOH, it's a much cleaner system than I've seen on *most* security conscious systems.
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When I launch Mail or Safari it asks me for access to something or other, I always pick "Always Allow" and it still asks me at seemingly random intervals. This is Windows bullshit, not MacOS.
It does that after anything touches the security system, ie, installing OS updates, installing apps that refresh caches, etc. It's a 'warning' feature that is, IMHO, too quiet. OTOH, if it went sending sirens off, people would *FREAK* for no reason.
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I've been creating all folders in the root and putting aliases on their desktops and having them bypass the whole Home business entirely. There's no reason for them to worry about it.
You described my version of UI hell, you realize...
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The Home method is just overly-complex. For Christ's sake there is a folder called Desktop that has what's on my desktop! Hello Win2k, nice to meet you! What is the purpose of that?
To cater to those who INSIST on using the Desktop for EVERYTHING. Bleah. Inane, if you ask me, but some folks just loooooooove it.
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That whole business should be the option with a simpler default method.
On that we're agreed. I hate the Desktop, and think it should just go away. :P
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Was this a problem with older versions of MacOS?
I remember using
More editing problems?
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Er... isn't this how it worked forever and all without catastrophic world meltdown?
I'm not saying annihilate the Home method from all existence, just simplify it or provide simpler options. But it's not going to happen so I should just develop the requisite Stockholm syndrome.
I happen to like the way OS8/9 worked. Not the way it performed, but the way it worked.
For what it was designed to do, and the world it was designed to work in, it was excellent.
Those requirements have changed, and it needed to change as well.
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Because someone switches from where the other person was in 3 seconds and doesn't have access to anything the other person was doing.
Why the hell should they?!? If they want to just work right there, WHY SWITCH USERS??? *pant pant*
Sorry, but why even bother to switch users in such a case, if you just want to work *right there*? Honest question.
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Come on, even Jobs was dogging it during the WWDC keynote. It sucks. Hard.
The 'users' in 9 were a nasty nasty hack that never melded well with the rest of the system.
I agree, though I don't know why this "Library" folder has to show up in damned near every other folder in the system. Why not stick a Library folder for each person in the system folder? What the hell is it doing in my home, if it's supposed to be where I keep my stuff. That's not my stuff, that's the system's stuff.
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Editing error?
That's what I get for posting in TextEdit.
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They aren't great, I'll grant you. Too much exposed Unixy goodness... but OTOH, it's a much cleaner system than I've seen on *most* security conscious systems.
In my opinion Apple shouldn't have done it until they could keep it completely out of the user's face. It is still far too annoying, IMO. I do not want to learn why UNIX does things certain ways (that's what I meant by disliking UNIX, something deleting the Terminal won't fix).
I suppose this is what comes of Apple failing to make its own real operating system and having to piggyback on someone else's work, but it sucks to use sometimes because of that.
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It does that after anything touches the security system, ie, installing OS updates, installing apps that refresh caches, etc. It's a 'warning' feature that is, IMHO, too quiet. OTOH, if it went sending sirens off, people would *FREAK* for no reason.
Too quiet? We went from no security to super NASA security?
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To cater to those who INSIST on using the Desktop for EVERYTHING. Bleah. Inane, if you ask me, but some folks just loooooooove it.
Oh, the way the MacOS taught us to use computers for years is now inane.
I love the sea change. When Win2k came out and the whole user->home->blah was in that was lambasted, but now it's genius; the only way to do things.
It shouldn't be called desktop anymore, just The Main Window. Because the desktop metaphor is dead, apparently, and Apple didn't bother telling me they were killing it.
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Why the hell should they?!? If they want to just work right there, WHY SWITCH USERS??? *pant pant*
Different mail.app settings. Different iChat settings.
I agree, though I don't know why this "Library" folder has to show up in damned near every other folder in the system. Why not stick a Library folder for each person in the system folder? What the hell is it doing in my home, if it's supposed to be where I keep my stuff. That's not my stuff, that's the system's stuff.
Nope.
The Library in your space is where *YOUR* preferences are stored, where *your* fonts are installed, where *your* web caches live... etc, etc, etc.
It's all you, grover baby!
(Oh, and there are three Library folders you have any dealings with, and that's it. Three. The System's, which Apple controls for the OS, the top level one which sets up things for everyone at once, and your private one which applies just to you. Much nicer than having everything thrown into one System Folder as in 9, IMHO. Any other Library folders you see are other people's, and you ought not to be mucking about in them, they're not yours.)
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In my opinion Apple shouldn't have done it until they could keep it completely out of the user's face. It is still far too annoying, IMO. I do not want to learn why UNIX does things certain ways (that's what I meant by disliking UNIX, something deleting the Terminal won't fix).
I suppose this is what comes of Apple failing to make its own real operating system and having to piggyback on someone else's work, but it sucks to use sometimes because of that.
Indeed, it's a tradeoff. Copland was the attempt, and it went BOOM. (I have it on good authority that the biggest obstacle was C++... it just plain kept getting in the way of what they were trying to do, which was *essentially* to clone NeXT with some neat additions...) Instead of Yet Another Failed OS Attempt, we get a working system that has some burrs.
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Too quiet? We went from no security to super NASA security?
Too quiet in the sense that it doesn't tell the user *why* it's asking again. "A change to your security frameworks or settings was detected. Many applications and OS updaters do this as a normal matter of course. If you have recently installed such, this message is likely spurious. If you have not, you may wish to consider poking around a bit to see what the hell is going on."
And yes, 'super NASA security' is a *must* in today's marketplace, if you want to sell to, oh, say the gummint. Or NASA. But apparently not the Army. *sigh*
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Oh, the way the MacOS taught us to use computers for years is now inane.
No, it made sense at the time. It doesn't anymore.
And, the Desktop issue is my *opinion*, and I stated it as such. I've *never* liked throwing crap on the Desktop, it's been a pain from the beginning in my opinion.
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I love the sea change. When Win2k came out and the whole user->home->blah was in that was lambasted, but now it's genius; the only way to do things.
It shouldn't be called desktop anymore, just The Main Window. Because the desktop metaphor is dead, apparently, and Apple didn't bother telling me they were killing it.
Well actually, they're trying to let you keep doing things your way, even if it annoys the crud outta the rest of us.
Seriously, *I* was never one lambasting a userhome approach... I *LIKE* it, and have been waiting 19 years for the Mac to have such a beast. The Windows approach, however, is *flawed*, in that it is exactly like what 9 was heading towards - a single user design with multi user systems layered over the top, and it just doesn't work well.
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Different mail.app settings. Different iChat settings.
But you want the same workspace, ready at an instant's notice... so *some* apps swap out preferences and working documents, but others don't. Oy.
It shouldn't be called desktop anymore, just The Main Window. Because the desktop metaphor is dead, apparently, and Apple didn't bother telling me they were killing it.
The desktop metaphor was well suited to its era. However, advances in computing, IMHO, have made the metaphor non-optimal for our modern computing experience.
No longer is the computer my virtual 'desk'. You see, the desktop metaphor doesn't work too well in a multi-user networked setup with shared resources. Metaphors in computing should be applied when they do a good job of explaining and approximating interactions with a new domain.
The desktop metaphor is broken when:
Somebody logs in remotely. This would be like a spirit sitting down and using your desk while you are still working.
Remote storage breaks things as well. You stick something in the bottom drawer of you desk and its not there 10 seconds later.
File Sharing. The paper you're looking at has actually changed but it still looks the same until you set it down and pick it up again.
Multiple users are analogous to sharing your desk with the evening shift... sort of.
People have absolutely huge collections of files now. These files are so numerous that spatial based organization is non-optimal. Just as libraries needed card-catalogs (smart folders) users no longer are capable of remembering where everything is. iTunes song management is the card-catalog of our era. Remembering the location of every book in a library is simply not reasonable.
You see, the desktop metaphor is no longer perfect. A better but still unsuitable metaphor would be a desk-drawer. However, this only partially fixes the metaphor. It fails to address the inherent problems in spatial organization of massive file collections. Why bend the metaphor and make it false rather than settle on interaction techniques suited to today's computing environment?
I think that Apple realizes that the UNIX underpinnings are too much for some users to comprehend. Yet they also realize that making two separate computing platforms, one for experts and one for casual users, comes with pitfalls. The only reasonable solution is to adopt an architecture capable of supporting multiple users and then to provide a simplified view that doesn't covertly obscure anything.
This is what the Panther finder is aiming to do; provide robust (unix) multi-user support but at the same time, make it simple for novices. The question is: have they accomplished this in a manner that makes the two systems apparent yet non-obtrusive to both categories of users? I think they've succeeded. The functionality of iApps and the inclusion of smart folders in the left most pane lays the groundwork for post-desktop-computing™
I realize that arguing with gorverat is like talking to a brick wall, but I feel compelled to respond for posterity's sake :
Things change. Macs couldn't even use more than one application when they first came out. Viruses and DOS attacks weren't a way of life. How much stuff did people keep on their computers then? How much storage was available to users? How much of it was personal? How many people worked over networks? How many peripherals and portable devices were available? How many people knew how to use the computer? How long ago did Apple try to modernize the OS, as opposed to when we actually got it? How much of this was in their heads then, and we just didn't see it until 3 years ago?
PS: Y'all can kick and scream as much as you want, but Apple will NOT make the Finder' metal appearance optional. If you kick and scream enough, they might drop it though. They dropped it from Sherlock at the last second...
With Apple would decide then whether the UI is moving forward or backward or whatever.
Desktop is hosed. Either fix it or fsck it. DMGs should open on the Desktop or every other volume in existence should not. Desktop used to be a nice metaphor for root, but at present its almost but not quite and Apple hasn't been bothered to fix the damn thing. Apple really needs a UI cop for OSX.
Finder is now officially half-assed spatial. Its either gets better than iTunes/iPhoto (which are really lame-assed examples of metadata rich object manipulation in which you organize things Apple's way or are fscked) or we go back to Classic Finder. If Apple has us give up on the metaphor of direct object correspondence and manipulation then that something better should be metadata rich, many-to-one correspondences and real-time searches and organization based on any user-defined criteria for starters.
Though Longhorn is not shipping until 2005, leaked betas have not included any semblance of MS new FS/SQL hybrid. And given Panthers and Apple's relative lack of interest in metadata (live searching and labels are pretty simplistic at this moment) it may be a while before anything gets settled because there's not even the smallest hint of foundation building.
The Library in your space is where *YOUR* preferences are stored, where *your* fonts are installed, where *your* web caches live... etc, etc, etc.
Will there ever be a need for Joe User to do anything with that folder? If not, why is it there?
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Much nicer than having everything thrown into one System Folder as in 9, IMHO.
If it's in the System Folder then I don't see it. I see it now. That is not nicer.
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Too quiet in the sense that it doesn't tell the user *why* it's asking again. "A change to your security frameworks or settings was detected. Many applications and OS updaters do this as a normal matter of course. If you have recently installed such, this message is likely spurious. If you have not, you may wish to consider poking around a bit to see what the hell is going on."
And that would be helpful?
"Something changed (maybe like a system file or something), do you care? Do you still feel safe?"
WHY EVEN ASK!? JUST ****ING DO YOU IT YOU GODDAM ANNOYING BOX!!
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And yes, 'super NASA security' is a *must* in today's marketplace, if you want to sell to, oh, say the gummint. Or NASA. But apparently not the Army. *sigh*
What about.... In The Navy?
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And, the Desktop issue is my *opinion*, and I stated it as such. I've *never* liked throwing crap on the Desktop, it's been a pain from the beginning in my opinion.
Well you are obviously a Windoze-whore.
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But you want the same workspace, ready at an instant's notice... so *some* apps swap out preferences and working documents, but others don't. Oy.
YES!
Why is my stuff 4 levels down if I'm the only user? *shoots OSX*
--
Also, why is my bitch invalid by some gripe about metal is valid? Hello, people, mine is a gripe that is more than cosmetic!
Will there ever be a need for Joe User to do anything with that folder? If not, why is it there?
Indeed, there is a need. Install a font? It goes there. Install an AppleScript? It goes there.
It's the *same as the old System Folder* for all intents and purposes.
The difference is that if you delete the whole damned thing, you only hose yourself, not the ability of the computer to boot.
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If it's in the System Folder then I don't see it. I see it now. That is not nicer.
See above. Library == System Folder, in concept.
It's really just a rename, except that the essential stuff for booting went into /System/Library, and the stuff that affects everyone on the machine equally went into /Library. It's a separation of concerns, and that's a Good Thing(tm).
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And that would be helpful?
"Something changed (maybe like a system file or something), do you care? Do you still feel safe?"
WHY EVEN ASK!? JUST ****ING DO YOU IT YOU GODDAM ANNOYING BOX!!
So you're saying that if the system *can* detect someone hacking into your system, and doesn't bother to say anything, *that* makes you happier?
That does it, you're just certifiably insane.
I'd like to see it be more explicit about why it's asking the user, obviously.
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What about.... In The Navy?
All together now!
GAY!
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Well you are obviously a Windoze-whore.
*laugh* Sorry, have you *SEEN* most Windoze users' desktops?!? Christ, they're filled with umpteen gazillion icons. That was the hardest part of migrating my advisor to OS X, getting him to KNOCK THAT CRAP OFF. He's adjusted now, and his Desktop is spotless.
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YES!
Why is my stuff 4 levels down if I'm the only user? *shoots OSX*
Because Steve Jobs personally hates you.
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Also, why is my bitch invalid by some gripe about metal is valid? Hello, people, mine is a gripe that is more than cosmetic!
I'm just forcing myself to like it. It will work eventually. I'll watch a few keynotes to get the RDF pumping and soon I'll think it's the best ever. And when it changes again that will be the best ever.
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I'd like to see it be more explicit about why it's asking the user, obviously.
And I as well. Which is why I think it is pointless now when it provides ZERO feedback as to why it is asking me again.
[quote]*laugh* Sorry, have you *SEEN* most Windoze users' desktops?!? Christ, they're filled with umpteen gazillion icons. That was the hardest part of migrating my advisor to OS X, getting him to KNOCK THAT CRAP OFF. He's adjusted now, and his Desktop is spotless.
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Because Steve Jobs personally hates you.
And all because I forced him to eat meat that one time... vindictive bastard.
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Oh, that's because you're a whiny little pissant.
All the would-be trolls could take a lesson from you, this is how you debate groverat!
I think the finder really only bothers those that are deeply entrenched in OS 9 (and prior) and it's way of doing things.
My experience showing new people such as my family members and PC switchers from my workplace has been very positive.
They seem to grasp the "Home" concept very easily. When you tell them that all of their stuff is in their home folder (their House) and that to back up they just copy this folder they love it.
I place a Home icon in their dock and remove the hard drive icon from their desktop. To a fault, they all seem to like column view the best.
I think they will like the Panther finder even better. It more closely resembles the way iTunes and iPhoto work, which they quickly grasped. It seems to make more sense that everything starts from the left and goes to the right.
I will have a hard time waiting for the new finder.
this pane basically replaces what used to the the first column in Column View, and when you navigate to your Home
If this pane would behave the same as the playlist pane in iTunes and allow me to add and delete my own Aliases to folders. If that pane was mine and not pre-directorized by Apple, then you have me interested and using it. YES! That would be a great evolution. A folder with a finder attached to it's left side. But is it like that?
An observation. Some people here are forgetting what a finder is. It evolved from a folder into a finder. The finder will evolve, but it should never ever lose the folder. A folder shows the TRUE contents, it shows the real stuff inside, it should ALWAYS show the true contents of a folder otherwise you start getting into trouble. I feel that this is what upsets people, when the OS starts hiding files from you. I agree 1000% that it's a very bad thing.
Comments
Actually, the only one who said anything about the filesystem layout was BRussell... the rest of us are discussing metadata issues.
BRussell counts as a human separate from myself! You evil man you!
'Home' is where your files live. Files you create, files you organize, files you care about.
That is not what Apple has been telling me for the last 18 years. And I'm someone who has been using Macs since I knew what computers were.
I can understand making a change if there's a reason. The reason there are so many problems with the Finder that weren't there in OS9 is because Apple unnecessarily changed the way we interact with the computer. Unnecessarily.
Yes, much. The old structure limited what Apple could do, tremendously. It was static, and hardcoded. The new approach is highly abstracted, and the Panther Finder shows this. This is *good*.
Good for who? Because it's confusing to me and just about everyone else I've installed OSX for. Better than OS9 overall but
The first (not caring about privacy) *can* be handled with Groups. Just set your filespace to be writable by everyone in a certain group. Done.
What groups?
Permissions issues are the single most confusing and frustrating things with OSX and I don't see how Apple is making that any better. When I launch Mail or Safari it asks me for access to something or other, I always pick "Always Allow" and it still asks me at seemingly random intervals. This is Windows bullshit, not MacOS.
The second, sharing files, could be done by making aliases in two of the accounts to the folders in the third, after performing the above step. Done.
I've been creating all folders in the root and putting aliases on their desktops and having them bypass the whole Home business entirely. There's no reason for them to worry about it.
The Home method is just overly-complex. For Christ's sake there is a folder called Desktop that has what's on my desktop! Hello Win2k, nice to meet you! What is the purpose of that?
That whole business should be the option with a simpler default method.
No. Because having 'your' files suddenly be changed behind your back (when Mom logged in, for instance) is even more confusing to most folks.
Was this a problem with older versions of MacOS?
I remember using
And most people want security these days, so having a private and locked down filespace by default makes sense. Leaving things open footloose and fancy free because 'that's what the customer wants... really... we swear...' is M$'s idiocy at work. You *really* want that kind of virus/worm/script problem on your machine?
Er... isn't this how it worked forever and all without catastrophic world meltdown?
I'm not saying annihilate the Home method from all existence, just simplify it or provide simpler options. But it's not going to happen so I should just develop the requisite Stockholm syndrome.
I happen to like the way OS8/9 worked. Not the way it performed, but the way it worked.
Er, explain how so?
Because someone switches from where the other person was in 3 seconds and doesn't have access to anything the other person was doing.
Alright, now you just need thorazine. Column view is a *godsend*.[/B]
Come on, even Jobs was dogging it during the WWDC keynote. It sucks. Hard.
I appreciate the new volumes sidebar, since I can turn it off. I would be all over brushed metal, if I could revert to Aqua. As it stands right now, I hate brushed metal so much that it eclipses the significant advances to the Finder in Panther.
Apple, please give me the option to disable brushed metal.
Escher
Can someone explain? I'd like to hate it too.
Panther addresses this by putting instant access to the Home folder (and other places) in a pane in every window, should you choose to use it. It's more than skin deep --- this pane basically replaces what used to the the first column in Column View, and when you navigate to your Home, restrains you from being able to scroll back to Users. Smart idea, but the real potential innovation in the Pantehr Finder is that amazing search field. I can see that utterly changing the way I work with the Finder. It looks great.
If you want to work around using your Home folder, by the way, you're certainly free to; but it's working against the way OS X handles security, which is a significant change from OS 9. (For example, I don't believe FileVault will work if you don't keep your files in Home.)
Letting go of the fact your personal files aren't in a folder on your root drive but a folder with your username in another folder named Users isn't as nearly bad you may think (speaking as someone who's been using a Mac for over 10 years). I recommend giving it a try, when you're ready. Apple is making it as easy as I've seen it done, and Panther seems to make this transition even easier (and nicer, too).
Originally posted by BRussell
I don't get the hatred of the metal. It looks to me like it has the same functionality of the white/stripes - even more, because you can grab and drag in more places. So it must just be the look or the color or something.
Can someone explain? I'd like to hate it too.
I can't *too* worked up about it, but here's my understanding of why people object:
- Some find (very strongly) that it looks cheesy and unattractive.
- Others are frustrated by Apple's vague and shifting guidelines when it should be applied.
I myself find it a little cheesy, especially when seen or used in largish swatches of empty space. But it's growing on me (maybe I'm just getting used to it).
Surprisingly, I find that I do like having two different flavors of window appearances. It keeps life interesting. I just wish there were better rules why an app is one or the other.
I think Apple should open up some limited "themes" for the OS, but they seem to be putting it off for as long as they possibly can. One day I'd love to see something akin to this in the Appearance preferences:
Window appearance:
Standard - Aqua, Brushed Metal, Glass
iApps - Brushed Metal, Glass
Finder - Aqua, Brushed Metal, Glass
Glass being a completely stripeless version of Aqua, a near-opaque glossy white with transparencies when inactive.
Originally posted by groverat
BRussell counts as a human separate from myself! You evil man you!
Thanks for noticing!
That is not what Apple has been telling me for the last 18 years. And I'm someone who has been using Macs since I knew what computers were.
Newbie, huh?
I can understand making a change if there's a reason. The reason there are so many problems with the Finder that weren't there in OS9 is because Apple unnecessarily changed the way we interact with the computer. Unnecessarily.
I disagree. I honestly can't see using the old Finder/UI/file layout approach with X. It just wouldn't *work*, not with networks and multiple users and such everywhere. The 'users' in 9 were a nasty nasty hack that never melded well with the rest of the system.
9 was a direct descendant of an OS that was designed when networks were something for mainframes only, computers were novel enough that there was no concept of 'users' for the average purchaser, security wasn't even a consideration, etc, etc, etc.
The computing world has changed considerably since then, and 9 was, sorrily, left far behind.
X provides a much better *base* for the next decade or so... but the task Apple had was not to make X like 9, but to make X the best experience it *could* be, given the new shifts.
They're not there yet, but they're still ahead of anyone else, IMNSHO.
Good for who? Because it's confusing to me and just about everyone else I've installed OSX for. Better than OS9 overall but
Editing error?
What groups?
Permissions issues are the single most confusing and frustrating things with OSX and I don't see how Apple is making that any better.
They aren't great, I'll grant you. Too much exposed Unixy goodness... but OTOH, it's a much cleaner system than I've seen on *most* security conscious systems.
When I launch Mail or Safari it asks me for access to something or other, I always pick "Always Allow" and it still asks me at seemingly random intervals. This is Windows bullshit, not MacOS.
It does that after anything touches the security system, ie, installing OS updates, installing apps that refresh caches, etc. It's a 'warning' feature that is, IMHO, too quiet. OTOH, if it went sending sirens off, people would *FREAK* for no reason.
I've been creating all folders in the root and putting aliases on their desktops and having them bypass the whole Home business entirely. There's no reason for them to worry about it.
You described my version of UI hell, you realize...
The Home method is just overly-complex. For Christ's sake there is a folder called Desktop that has what's on my desktop! Hello Win2k, nice to meet you! What is the purpose of that?
To cater to those who INSIST on using the Desktop for EVERYTHING. Bleah. Inane, if you ask me, but some folks just loooooooove it.
That whole business should be the option with a simpler default method.
On that we're agreed. I hate the Desktop, and think it should just go away. :P
Was this a problem with older versions of MacOS?
I remember using
More editing problems?
Er... isn't this how it worked forever and all without catastrophic world meltdown?
I'm not saying annihilate the Home method from all existence, just simplify it or provide simpler options. But it's not going to happen so I should just develop the requisite Stockholm syndrome.
I happen to like the way OS8/9 worked. Not the way it performed, but the way it worked.
For what it was designed to do, and the world it was designed to work in, it was excellent.
Those requirements have changed, and it needed to change as well.
Because someone switches from where the other person was in 3 seconds and doesn't have access to anything the other person was doing.
Why the hell should they?!? If they want to just work right there, WHY SWITCH USERS??? *pant pant*
Sorry, but why even bother to switch users in such a case, if you just want to work *right there*? Honest question.
Come on, even Jobs was dogging it during the WWDC keynote. It sucks. Hard.
Bzzzzt. Been addressed, re-view Keynote.
The 'users' in 9 were a nasty nasty hack that never melded well with the rest of the system.
I agree, though I don't know why this "Library" folder has to show up in damned near every other folder in the system. Why not stick a Library folder for each person in the system folder? What the hell is it doing in my home, if it's supposed to be where I keep my stuff. That's not my stuff, that's the system's stuff.
Editing error?
That's what I get for posting in TextEdit.
They aren't great, I'll grant you. Too much exposed Unixy goodness... but OTOH, it's a much cleaner system than I've seen on *most* security conscious systems.
In my opinion Apple shouldn't have done it until they could keep it completely out of the user's face. It is still far too annoying, IMO. I do not want to learn why UNIX does things certain ways (that's what I meant by disliking UNIX, something deleting the Terminal won't fix).
I suppose this is what comes of Apple failing to make its own real operating system and having to piggyback on someone else's work, but it sucks to use sometimes because of that.
It does that after anything touches the security system, ie, installing OS updates, installing apps that refresh caches, etc. It's a 'warning' feature that is, IMHO, too quiet. OTOH, if it went sending sirens off, people would *FREAK* for no reason.
Too quiet? We went from no security to super NASA security?
To cater to those who INSIST on using the Desktop for EVERYTHING. Bleah. Inane, if you ask me, but some folks just loooooooove it.
Oh, the way the MacOS taught us to use computers for years is now inane.
I love the sea change. When Win2k came out and the whole user->home->blah was in that was lambasted, but now it's genius; the only way to do things.
It shouldn't be called desktop anymore, just The Main Window. Because the desktop metaphor is dead, apparently, and Apple didn't bother telling me they were killing it.
Why the hell should they?!? If they want to just work right there, WHY SWITCH USERS??? *pant pant*
Different mail.app settings. Different iChat settings.
Originally posted by groverat
Kickaha:
I agree, though I don't know why this "Library" folder has to show up in damned near every other folder in the system. Why not stick a Library folder for each person in the system folder? What the hell is it doing in my home, if it's supposed to be where I keep my stuff. That's not my stuff, that's the system's stuff.
Nope.
The Library in your space is where *YOUR* preferences are stored, where *your* fonts are installed, where *your* web caches live... etc, etc, etc.
It's all you, grover baby!
(Oh, and there are three Library folders you have any dealings with, and that's it. Three. The System's, which Apple controls for the OS, the top level one which sets up things for everyone at once, and your private one which applies just to you. Much nicer than having everything thrown into one System Folder as in 9, IMHO. Any other Library folders you see are other people's, and you ought not to be mucking about in them, they're not yours.)
In my opinion Apple shouldn't have done it until they could keep it completely out of the user's face. It is still far too annoying, IMO. I do not want to learn why UNIX does things certain ways (that's what I meant by disliking UNIX, something deleting the Terminal won't fix).
I suppose this is what comes of Apple failing to make its own real operating system and having to piggyback on someone else's work, but it sucks to use sometimes because of that.
Indeed, it's a tradeoff. Copland was the attempt, and it went BOOM. (I have it on good authority that the biggest obstacle was C++... it just plain kept getting in the way of what they were trying to do, which was *essentially* to clone NeXT with some neat additions...) Instead of Yet Another Failed OS Attempt, we get a working system that has some burrs.
Too quiet? We went from no security to super NASA security?
Too quiet in the sense that it doesn't tell the user *why* it's asking again. "A change to your security frameworks or settings was detected. Many applications and OS updaters do this as a normal matter of course. If you have recently installed such, this message is likely spurious. If you have not, you may wish to consider poking around a bit to see what the hell is going on."
And yes, 'super NASA security' is a *must* in today's marketplace, if you want to sell to, oh, say the gummint. Or NASA. But apparently not the Army. *sigh*
Oh, the way the MacOS taught us to use computers for years is now inane.
No, it made sense at the time. It doesn't anymore.
And, the Desktop issue is my *opinion*, and I stated it as such. I've *never* liked throwing crap on the Desktop, it's been a pain from the beginning in my opinion.
I love the sea change. When Win2k came out and the whole user->home->blah was in that was lambasted, but now it's genius; the only way to do things.
It shouldn't be called desktop anymore, just The Main Window. Because the desktop metaphor is dead, apparently, and Apple didn't bother telling me they were killing it.
Well actually, they're trying to let you keep doing things your way, even if it annoys the crud outta the rest of us.
Seriously, *I* was never one lambasting a userhome approach... I *LIKE* it, and have been waiting 19 years for the Mac to have such a beast. The Windows approach, however, is *flawed*, in that it is exactly like what 9 was heading towards - a single user design with multi user systems layered over the top, and it just doesn't work well.
Different mail.app settings. Different iChat settings.
But you want the same workspace, ready at an instant's notice... so *some* apps swap out preferences and working documents, but others don't. Oy.
Originally posted by groverat
It shouldn't be called desktop anymore, just The Main Window. Because the desktop metaphor is dead, apparently, and Apple didn't bother telling me they were killing it.
The desktop metaphor was well suited to its era. However, advances in computing, IMHO, have made the metaphor non-optimal for our modern computing experience.
No longer is the computer my virtual 'desk'. You see, the desktop metaphor doesn't work too well in a multi-user networked setup with shared resources. Metaphors in computing should be applied when they do a good job of explaining and approximating interactions with a new domain.
The desktop metaphor is broken when:
- Somebody logs in remotely. This would be like a spirit sitting down and using your desk while you are still working.
- Remote storage breaks things as well. You stick something in the bottom drawer of you desk and its not there 10 seconds later.
- File Sharing. The paper you're looking at has actually changed but it still looks the same until you set it down and pick it up again.
- Multiple users are analogous to sharing your desk with the evening shift... sort of.
- People have absolutely huge collections of files now. These files are so numerous that spatial based organization is non-optimal. Just as libraries needed card-catalogs (smart folders) users no longer are capable of remembering where everything is. iTunes song management is the card-catalog of our era. Remembering the location of every book in a library is simply not reasonable.
You see, the desktop metaphor is no longer perfect. A better but still unsuitable metaphor would be a desk-drawer. However, this only partially fixes the metaphor. It fails to address the inherent problems in spatial organization of massive file collections. Why bend the metaphor and make it false rather than settle on interaction techniques suited to today's computing environment?I think that Apple realizes that the UNIX underpinnings are too much for some users to comprehend. Yet they also realize that making two separate computing platforms, one for experts and one for casual users, comes with pitfalls. The only reasonable solution is to adopt an architecture capable of supporting multiple users and then to provide a simplified view that doesn't covertly obscure anything.
This is what the Panther finder is aiming to do; provide robust (unix) multi-user support but at the same time, make it simple for novices. The question is: have they accomplished this in a manner that makes the two systems apparent yet non-obtrusive to both categories of users? I think they've succeeded. The functionality of iApps and the inclusion of smart folders in the left most pane lays the groundwork for post-desktop-computing™
8)
Things change. Macs couldn't even use more than one application when they first came out. Viruses and DOS attacks weren't a way of life. How much stuff did people keep on their computers then? How much storage was available to users? How much of it was personal? How many people worked over networks? How many peripherals and portable devices were available? How many people knew how to use the computer? How long ago did Apple try to modernize the OS, as opposed to when we actually got it? How much of this was in their heads then, and we just didn't see it until 3 years ago?
PS: Y'all can kick and scream as much as you want, but Apple will NOT make the Finder' metal appearance optional. If you kick and scream enough, they might drop it though. They dropped it from Sherlock at the last second...
Desktop is hosed. Either fix it or fsck it. DMGs should open on the Desktop or every other volume in existence should not. Desktop used to be a nice metaphor for root, but at present its almost but not quite and Apple hasn't been bothered to fix the damn thing. Apple really needs a UI cop for OSX.
Finder is now officially half-assed spatial. Its either gets better than iTunes/iPhoto (which are really lame-assed examples of metadata rich object manipulation in which you organize things Apple's way or are fscked) or we go back to Classic Finder. If Apple has us give up on the metaphor of direct object correspondence and manipulation then that something better should be metadata rich, many-to-one correspondences and real-time searches and organization based on any user-defined criteria for starters.
Though Longhorn is not shipping until 2005, leaked betas have not included any semblance of MS new FS/SQL hybrid. And given Panthers and Apple's relative lack of interest in metadata (live searching and labels are pretty simplistic at this moment) it may be a while before anything gets settled because there's not even the smallest hint of foundation building.
The Library in your space is where *YOUR* preferences are stored, where *your* fonts are installed, where *your* web caches live... etc, etc, etc.
Will there ever be a need for Joe User to do anything with that folder? If not, why is it there?
Much nicer than having everything thrown into one System Folder as in 9, IMHO.
If it's in the System Folder then I don't see it. I see it now. That is not nicer.
Too quiet in the sense that it doesn't tell the user *why* it's asking again. "A change to your security frameworks or settings was detected. Many applications and OS updaters do this as a normal matter of course. If you have recently installed such, this message is likely spurious. If you have not, you may wish to consider poking around a bit to see what the hell is going on."
And that would be helpful?
"Something changed (maybe like a system file or something), do you care? Do you still feel safe?"
WHY EVEN ASK!? JUST ****ING DO YOU IT YOU GODDAM ANNOYING BOX!!
And yes, 'super NASA security' is a *must* in today's marketplace, if you want to sell to, oh, say the gummint. Or NASA. But apparently not the Army. *sigh*
What about.... In The Navy?
And, the Desktop issue is my *opinion*, and I stated it as such. I've *never* liked throwing crap on the Desktop, it's been a pain from the beginning in my opinion.
Well you are obviously a Windoze-whore.
But you want the same workspace, ready at an instant's notice... so *some* apps swap out preferences and working documents, but others don't. Oy.
YES!
Why is my stuff 4 levels down if I'm the only user? *shoots OSX*
--
Also, why is my bitch invalid by some gripe about metal is valid? Hello, people, mine is a gripe that is more than cosmetic!
Originally posted by groverat
Why is my stuff 4 levels down if I'm the only user? *shoots OSX*
Hey, good news! It's not anymore!
Originally posted by BuonRotto
They dropped it from Sherlock at the last second...
After it had been metal for how long? When Shelock 2 was first released with Mac OS 9 in October 1999?
Originally posted by groverat
Will there ever be a need for Joe User to do anything with that folder? If not, why is it there?
Indeed, there is a need. Install a font? It goes there. Install an AppleScript? It goes there.
It's the *same as the old System Folder* for all intents and purposes.
The difference is that if you delete the whole damned thing, you only hose yourself, not the ability of the computer to boot.
If it's in the System Folder then I don't see it. I see it now. That is not nicer.
See above. Library == System Folder, in concept.
It's really just a rename, except that the essential stuff for booting went into /System/Library, and the stuff that affects everyone on the machine equally went into /Library. It's a separation of concerns, and that's a Good Thing(tm).
And that would be helpful?
"Something changed (maybe like a system file or something), do you care? Do you still feel safe?"
WHY EVEN ASK!? JUST ****ING DO YOU IT YOU GODDAM ANNOYING BOX!!
So you're saying that if the system *can* detect someone hacking into your system, and doesn't bother to say anything, *that* makes you happier?
That does it, you're just certifiably insane.
I'd like to see it be more explicit about why it's asking the user, obviously.
What about.... In The Navy?
All together now!
GAY!
Well you are obviously a Windoze-whore.
*laugh* Sorry, have you *SEEN* most Windoze users' desktops?!? Christ, they're filled with umpteen gazillion icons. That was the hardest part of migrating my advisor to OS X, getting him to KNOCK THAT CRAP OFF. He's adjusted now, and his Desktop is spotless.
YES!
Why is my stuff 4 levels down if I'm the only user? *shoots OSX*
Because Steve Jobs personally hates you.
Also, why is my bitch invalid by some gripe about metal is valid? Hello, people, mine is a gripe that is more than cosmetic!
Oh, that's because you're a whiny little pissant.
I'm just forcing myself to like it. It will work eventually. I'll watch a few keynotes to get the RDF pumping and soon I'll think it's the best ever. And when it changes again that will be the best ever.
I'd like to see it be more explicit about why it's asking the user, obviously.
And I as well. Which is why I think it is pointless now when it provides ZERO feedback as to why it is asking me again.
[quote]*laugh* Sorry, have you *SEEN* most Windoze users' desktops?!? Christ, they're filled with umpteen gazillion icons. That was the hardest part of migrating my advisor to OS X, getting him to KNOCK THAT CRAP OFF. He's adjusted now, and his Desktop is spotless.
Because Steve Jobs personally hates you.
And all because I forced him to eat meat that one time... vindictive bastard.
Oh, that's because you're a whiny little pissant.
All the would-be trolls could take a lesson from you, this is how you debate groverat!
Originally posted by groverat
Why is my stuff 4 levels down if I'm the only user? *shoots OSX*
I thought this was a thread about the new Finder interface. (See BuonRotto's comment). 8)
My experience showing new people such as my family members and PC switchers from my workplace has been very positive.
They seem to grasp the "Home" concept very easily. When you tell them that all of their stuff is in their home folder (their House) and that to back up they just copy this folder they love it.
I place a Home icon in their dock and remove the hard drive icon from their desktop. To a fault, they all seem to like column view the best.
I think they will like the Panther finder even better. It more closely resembles the way iTunes and iPhoto work, which they quickly grasped. It seems to make more sense that everything starts from the left and goes to the right.
I will have a hard time waiting for the new finder.
Originally posted by Hobbes
this pane basically replaces what used to the the first column in Column View, and when you navigate to your Home
If this pane would behave the same as the playlist pane in iTunes and allow me to add and delete my own Aliases to folders. If that pane was mine and not pre-directorized by Apple, then you have me interested and using it. YES! That would be a great evolution. A folder with a finder attached to it's left side. But is it like that?
An observation. Some people here are forgetting what a finder is. It evolved from a folder into a finder. The finder will evolve, but it should never ever lose the folder. A folder shows the TRUE contents, it shows the real stuff inside, it should ALWAYS show the true contents of a folder otherwise you start getting into trouble. I feel that this is what upsets people, when the OS starts hiding files from you. I agree 1000% that it's a very bad thing.